Fabricate in items

[AvatarVecna]

Link (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm)


Fabricate
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: See text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.

Material Component
The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created

Fabricate allows you to take a pile of material, and turn it into an item made out of that material, where the item is worth thrice what the material is worth - and this process might require a Craft check for items that are particularly intricate in design. This is, essentially, a spell that lets you use the mundane Craft skill at super-speed, allowing you to do absurd amounts of crafting in just a couple minutes at most. Where I'm running into a weird issue is that, technically speaking, the Material Component is also the Target. This is a problem because...


The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not.

An arcane scroll of Fabricate is listed as 1125 gp market price, which is appropriate assuming the material component isn't included (5x9x25=1125). There are three paths forward that I can see, and I'm not super-happy with either one.

1) RAW Is King
Text trumps table. The price in the table is incorrect and doesn't account for any material component at all. If you're actually crafting a scroll of Fabricate, you need to provide the material component. Because fabricate results in an item made out of the same material as the component, this also means that each scroll of fabricate is limited to particular kinds of items in the first place; if you built the Fabricate scroll using 1000 gp worth of wood, then it can make a wooden item worth up to 3000 gp when cast. It also gets worse: crafting the scroll in the first place destroys the material component you used to power the spell, which is also the target. At best, this requires you to get a second pile of wood worth 1000 gp to serve as the target (which might or might not get consumed). At worst, the scroll is actually useless because the only legal target ceased to exist the second the scroll was scribed - you destroyed the material component that powers the spell before you actually cast it, so there's nothing to target.

2) Let's Compromise
This works like 1, except that we make the scroll at least theoretically useful by letting the initial expenditure of material component be targeted even though it has ceased to exist by the time you actually use the scroll. Your scroll isn't literally useless, and you don't need a second pile of material even.

3) RAI Feels Obvious
The table price reflects the obvious intention and the way one would intuitively assume the scroll works: you have a generic Fabricate scroll, and you use it to target an existing pile of material, and you turn that pile of material into an item. You don't need to provide the material component upfront, you can just cast the spell on material you find and turn it into stuff, the same way as if you were using the spell from your own slots.

Thoughts?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is why I prefer psionic fabricate. You don't destroy half (or all) of the material upon manifesting; you just target it and Craft it into whatever.

[Biggus]

I feel strongly that option 3 is the correct one, and would be very upset if a DM tried to impose option 1 or 2 on me. This seems to me to be clearly a technicality the designers just didn't think of, and that the way the spell should work is, as you say, obvious.

[Crake]

I feel strongly that option 3 is the correct one, and would be very upset if a DM tried to impose option 1 or 2 on me. This seems to me to be clearly a technicality the designers just didn't think of, and that the way the spell should work is, as you say, obvious.

Agreed charlimit

[loky1109]

While 1 is RAW, but it isn't playable. So, we should say "No!"
On other hand 2 & 3 look like two options that can exist both. Both in the same game I mean. Yeah, 3 is more flexible, but it isn't good for commerce. 2 is more better. I think 3 should exists but be more expensive. Market economy, you know.

[Saint-Just]

Fabricate having the material component is a headache with a very long story. Under extreme RAW Fabricate may not work at all (because you target the material component which is consumed by the casting, so when you finish the casting you have no legal target). I think it's simpler to ignore the material component because it closes many loopholes and seems to be RAI.

[Gruftzwerg]

As others have said, strict RAW suggests option (1). And imho this is the most consistent ruling if you compare it to the ruling of a "Wish" scroll. The Wish scroll points out the the price is variable depending on the optional gold and XP values invested into the scroll. Thus pointing out that these kind of things have to be set at the point of scribing the scroll.

If you feel annoyed by this, you just haven't thought about the exploit options of this rule result.

A craftlock can skip the spell material components needed for crafting, since he fakes the entire "cast" (which includes components to "cast" the spell) with an UMD roll (Imbue Item ability). (S/he still pays the regular scroll costs)

As always RAW leaves a lil bad taste, no mater how you look at it. But imho the other options don't smell well either and cause problems on their own.

Which leaves me with the advice that you should do what you think is best in this situation for your table.

[Biggus]

But imho the other options don't smell well either and cause problems on their own.


What problems do the other options cause?

[Jack_Simth]

Option 1 makes a scroll of Fabricate only useful for letting wizards learn it.
Option 2 makes it something of a one shot mundane item storage (some assembly required). Has an exploit involving anything that permits skipping components.
Option 3 has few exploits (beyond what Fabricate is expected to do - fast crafting - which can be leveraged quite a bit).

@Gruftzwerg: What exploit do you expect option 3 to enable?

[Jay R]

Listing the raw material as a material component was poor rules-writing. "Material component" is a jargon term that will be used elsewhere (like the scroll rules), and needs to have its precise technical meaning. They meant that you have to have the stuff to cast the spell, which is true, but not quite what "material component" means.

My problems come up because the fabricate spell makes a false assumption that for any item, the material is 1/3 of the price and the labor is 2/3 of the price. When the material needed to fabricate something is clearly and unambiguously worth far less than 1/3 the value of the finished product, you get nonsense results.

A masterpiece painting worth thousands requires the exact same paint and canvas as a poor quality painting worth 10 gp, if that.
Some sulfur, saltpeter, and charcoal can be used to make expensive gunpowder.
It takes 8 lbs of steel to make a shovel worth 2 gp, but the same 8 lbs can make 4 rapiers worth 80 gp.
An amazing lock costs 150 gp. Does it really require 50 gp worth of steel?
A square yard of canvas costs 1 sp and weight 1 lb. So a tent (10 gp, 20 lbs) uses 33 1/3 square yards by cost, but only 20 square yards by weight. [Yes, I assume that the heavy thread and grommets cost only a few coppers, and weighs very little.]


If I were running the game, and a player wanted her PC to fabricate a tent, I would require the PC to provide a few yards of canvas, and to spend 3 1/3 gp, but I would not require 33 1/3 square yards of canvas.

Similarly, your character would need to provide the material when he casts fabricate from a scroll. When writing a scroll, the wizard doesn't need it, because he is not deciding what item will be made. Similarly, you don't have to choose which trolls you're going to burn when scribing a fireball scroll, or who you're going to make grow when scribing an enlarge person spell

If you needed the material to scribe the scroll, then it's not a fabricate scroll, it's a fabricate a shovel scroll, or a fabricate a tent scroll.

[Gruftzwerg]

What problems do the other options cause?
&

Option 1 makes a scroll of Fabricate only useful for letting wizards learn it.
Option 2 makes it something of a one shot mundane item storage (some assembly required). Has an exploit involving anything that permits skipping components.
Option 3 has few exploits (beyond what Fabricate is expected to do - fast crafting - which can be leveraged quite a bit).

@Gruftzwerg: What exploit do you expect option 3 to enable?
It's not sole the exploit potential that leaves a bad taste for me here, but it is part of it. (but on the other hand, option 1 has much more abuse potential for craftocks..., but that is an issue for its own topic imho).

The problem I have is the lack of rule consistency of the other options. Let me explain this in more detail:

A crafted spell has not always the same flexibility as the same spell being cast normally. Have a look at Brew Potions as example here:

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
Same can be said about Craft Contingent Spell. So, generally speaking, a crafted spell may (!) lack the flexibility of the original spell.

Then there is the example of Wish scrolls as given. As said, some things have to be set a the time of crafting the item.

If you now extrapolate these two thoughts on our topic, you should hopefully get why I feel dis comfortable here.
Scribe Scroll sets when the material component is used (at the time of crafting). Thus when you use the scroll, you can pop up an item of the used materials type.




Listing the raw material as a material component was poor rules-writing.
Kinda agree here. But as it is, RAW the spell is functional.
Fabricate creates a more specific situation where you are allowed to target the material component.

It just creates a situation where the scroll doesn't have the same flexibility as casting the spell. Same as with Wish.

______________________________________

Let's be honest here. We want Fabricate to be that flexible. So that we don't need to prepare it and thus can ditch it onto a scroll for situational use. The problem is that RAW doesn't give us this flexibility.

This is giving me a bad taste. Not the exploit potential. By RAW a scroll of fabricate is restricted to the materials set at the time of crafting the scroll and doesn't allow for later changes. (e.g. like a potion of energy immunity (fire) doesn't let you change the energy type; due to a different rule but the same technical reason applies).

[nedz]

4) The spell is dysfunctional: remove the line about material components.
This should solve the craftlock exploit etc.

Though I do quite like the idea of finding a scroll of fabricate ballista, or whatever, in some loot pile.

[Telonius]

This does present an interesting possibility though. Suppose you have a whole lot of heavy materials to transport - iron ore or gold. If we take option 2 (goods are consumed, but can be retrieved later), Fabricate it into a pile of metal bars. it essentially transmutes the 10 cubic feet per level into a scroll.

I think we've just invented paper currency. :smallbiggrin:

[Gruftzwerg]

4) The spell is dysfunctional: remove the line about material components.


Why do you think the spell is dysfunctional?
Spell text ain't sole the spell's effect and may contain additional additional casting information. In the chase of fabricate it tells you that it targets its own material component. Nothing wrong/dysfunctional with that. Targeting the material component is part of the casting, not of the spells effect.

Am I missing something here?

edit: And I don't think that you scribe a scroll of Fabricate (Ballista). You could use materials for the scroll that would allow for a ballista (or something else with the same materials).

[Jack_Simth]

I think we've just invented paper currency. :smallbiggrin:Also forgery, given the difficulties most folks have with arcane scrolls....

But I am totally yoinking that....

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why do you think the spell is dysfunctional?
Spell text ain't sole the spell's effect and may contain additional additional casting information. In the chase of fabricate it tells you that it targets its own material component. Nothing wrong/dysfunctional with that. Targeting the material component is part of the casting, not of the spells effect.

Am I missing something here?Fabricate destroys its material components, just like all spells do (if they have them). It targets it, destroys it, and then turns nothing into more nothing, because it has nothing left to use for crafting.

[Gruftzwerg]

Fabricate destroys its material components, just like all spells do (if they have them). It targets it, destroys it, and then turns nothing into more nothing, because it has nothing left to use for crafting.

specific trumps general

Fabricate tells you what happens to the material components and thus is more specific than the general material component rules. No dysfunction here imho.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

specific trumps general

Fabricate tells you what happens to the material components and thus is more specific than the general material component rules. No dysfunction here imho.That's not how it works. It's dysfunctional like Burrowing Power is dysfunctional, since B.P. specifies targets, but you can't typically target through objects (and AoE/ray powers don't have targets). Sure, you can houserule it like you just did, but that's not RAW.

[Jack_Simth]

That's not how it works. It's dysfunctional like Burrowing Power is dysfunctional, since B.P. specifies targets, but you can't typically target through objects (and AoE/ray powers don't have targets). Sure, you can houserule it like you just did, but that's not RAW.

Trap The Soul has a similar problem. How do you trap a creature in a gem that no longer exists?

Pretending that Fabricate's material component line doesn't exist and that the spell targets materials works fine. Solves several exploits.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's not how it works. It's dysfunctional like Burrowing Power is dysfunctional, since B.P. specifies targets, but you can't typically target through objects (and AoE/ray powers don't have targets). Sure, you can houserule it like you just did, but that's not RAW.

You haven't provided any reason/rule why it is not "specific trumps general". Fabricate tells you what happens to the material components, thus superseding any general rules for material components. As said, the spell text also can contain casting rules. And this is one of those chases. Like other spells tell you that you need a focus or to spent "X" xp, Fabricate's spell text also contains additional casting information.

I don't get where you are aiming with Burrowing Power. If you use "Specific Trumps General" no dysfunction occurs. BP allows you to target stuff (specific) behind a force effect or a wall (if you can provide LoS with other means).


Trap The Soul has a similar problem. How do you trap a creature in a gem that no longer exists?

Pretending that Fabricate's material component line doesn't exist and that the spell targets materials works fine. Solves several exploits.

As in the previous chase, Trap The Soul also is fully functional if you apply the "Specific Trumps General" rule to it. No need to ignore anything here. TTS tells you what happens to the material component, superseding any other general "material component" rules.


______

Really, I have to genuinely ask here: Why would you ignore "specific trumps general" here? Imho it is obvious that the spell-text is more specific than any general rules for spells.

[Jack_Simth]

As in the previous chase, Trap The Soul also is fully functional if you apply the "Specific Trumps General" rule to it. No need to ignore anything here. TTS tells you what happens to the material component, superseding any other general "material component" rules.
They're mildly different routes to the same conclusion. I was giving another example where MaxiDuRaritry's reading would alsl cause problems. I am not arguing with you.

[Gruftzwerg]

They're mildly different routes to the same conclusion. I was giving another example where MaxiDuRaritry's reading would alsl cause problems. I am not arguing with you.

oh ok. Sorry, my bad. I misunderstood you..

[False God]

1) RAW Is King
Text trumps table. The price in the table is incorrect and doesn't account for any material component at all. If you're actually crafting a scroll of Fabricate, you need to provide the material component. Because fabricate results in an item made out of the same material as the component, this also means that each scroll of fabricate is limited to particular kinds of items in the first place; if you built the Fabricate scroll using 1000 gp worth of wood, then it can make a wooden item worth up to 3000 gp when cast. It also gets worse: crafting the scroll in the first place destroys the material component you used to power the spell, which is also the target. At best, this requires you to get a second pile of wood worth 1000 gp to serve as the target (which might or might not get consumed). At worst, the scroll is actually useless because the only legal target ceased to exist the second the scroll was scribed - you destroyed the material component that powers the spell before you actually cast it, so there's nothing to target.

....

3) RAI Feels Obvious
The table price reflects the obvious intention and the way one would intuitively assume the scroll works: you have a generic Fabricate scroll, and you use it to target an existing pile of material, and you turn that pile of material into an item. You don't need to provide the material component upfront, you can just cast the spell on material you find and turn it into stuff, the same way as if you were using the spell from your own slots.

Thoughts?

I've run it as both. A caster can make a "Scroll of Fabricate: Hut" and a "Scroll of Fabricate". The first of course does a specific job and is much more expensive relative to the materials, but bypasses some troublesome logistics issues. They're great for expeditions to new lands. The latter is much cheaper, but requires the user to provide the materials, which may have it's own problems (or not).

I think #3 is the intended answer, but I like the idea conceptually of being able to provide scrolls with predetermined results. It can sometimes be easier to corral my players by providing a scroll that makes a house with a pre-determined layout, rather than watch them spend hours arguing over the exact square-footage of the bedroom and the orientation of the kitchen.

[Troacctid]

Option #3 is the correct answer according to the DMG. Fabricate is one of the example spell scrolls, and it doesn't cost extra for materials.

[AvatarVecna]

Option #3 is the correct answer according to the DMG. Fabricate is one of the example spell scrolls, and it doesn't cost extra for materials.

So rather than "text trumps table", it's "specific trumps general"? I can live with that.

[nedz]

Why do you think the spell is dysfunctional?
Spell text ain't sole the spell's effect and may contain additional additional casting information. In the chase of fabricate it tells you that it targets its own material component. Nothing wrong/dysfunctional with that. Targeting the material component is part of the casting, not of the spells effect.

It's a fourth option. Others have explained why already. YMMV.

Option #3 is the correct answer according to the DMG. Fabricate is one of the example spell scrolls, and it doesn't cost extra for materials.
I'm not sure that's conclusive, whilst such a scroll would be only be useful (under #1) for the party's wizard to learn the spell rather than cast it - that is a common use case for scrolls anyway.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You haven't provided any reason/rule why it is not "specific trumps general". Fabricate tells you what happens to the material components, thus superseding any general rules for material components. As said, the spell text also can contain casting rules. And this is one of those chases. Like other spells tell you that you need a focus or to spent "X" xp, Fabricate's spell text also contains additional casting information.

I don't get where you are aiming with Burrowing Power. If you use "Specific Trumps General" no dysfunction occurs. BP allows you to target stuff (specific) behind a force effect or a wall (if you can provide LoS with other means).

As in the previous chase, Trap The Soul also is fully functional if you apply the "Specific Trumps General" rule to it. No need to ignore anything here. TTS tells you what happens to the material component, superseding any other general "material component" rules.The spell is using terminology incorrectly. If a spell has a material component, it destroys the component on casting. If it doesn't destroy it, it's not a material component -- it's either a (divine) focus or a target, simple as that. It's a rules error, like if you wrote Armor Class is a type of miss chance for a monster you made. That's not "specific trumps general"; that's a flat-out error.

[AsuraKyoko]

As in the previous chase, Trap The Soul also is fully functional if you apply the "Specific Trumps General" rule to it. No need to ignore anything here. TTS tells you what happens to the material component, superseding any other general "material component" rules.

This actually brings up a question that came up in a game a while back: If you have Trap the Soul as an SLA, how does it work? It doesn't have a material component, so there's nothing for the soul to get trapped in.

(In my specific case, we ruled that the soul gets trapped in the person who had the SLA, in part because it fit the flavor of devouring the soul. The other things we considered were either just having it require the gem anyways, or having it produce the gem with the soul in it.)

[Jack_Simth]

This actually brings up a question that came up in a game a while back: If you have Trap the Soul as an SLA, how does it work? It doesn't have a material component, so there's nothing for the soul to get trapped in.

(In my specific case, we ruled that the soul gets trapped in the person who had the SLA, in part because it fit the flavor of devouring the soul. The other things we considered were either just having it require the gem anyways, or having it produce the gem with the soul in it.)

You also get that question when using Shades to bypass the component.

I always went with "it produces a suitable gemstone - more accurately, a soulstone - which vanishes entirely if broken"

[AsuraKyoko]

You also get that question when using Shades to bypass the component.

I always went with "it produces a suitable gemstone - more accurately, a soulstone - which vanishes entirely if broken"

That certainly makes sense. It allows the spell to work pretty much exactly as it normally does, while maintaining the benefits of not requiring a material component.

[Gruftzwerg]

The spell is using terminology incorrectly. If a spell has a material component, it destroys the component on casting. If it doesn't destroy it, it's not a material component -- it's either a (divine) focus or a target, simple as that. It's a rules error, like if you wrote Armor Class is a type of miss chance for a monster you made. That's not "specific trumps general"; that's a flat-out error.

Excuse me, but how is that not more specific?

1. We have general spell component rules, which include Material Component rules

2. An individual spell is more specific and thus can supersede any general rule.

Can you provide any logical argument why this is not more specific? Except denying it, you didn't provide any argument here.
_____

And even if the materials get destroyed as you say. It still doesn't make the spell dysfunctional imho:

Let's see what happens if we cast the spell directly and what happens if we try to scribe a scroll, assuming the material component (MC) gets destroyed:

A) Casting Fabricate normally
You cast the spell and target the material component (MC). The raw MC is destroyed and gets converted to the desired end product. Targeting the MC and destroying it are both part of the casting process and not part of the effect. The effect is what happens afterwards: "convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material". Targeting the MC is not part of the effect. The conversion and the end-product are the effect of the spell.


b) Scribe Scroll Fabricate
Here the MC gets targeted and destroyed as part of the crafting/scribe process. When using a scroll, you don't need to provide the MC anymore since they where already consumed as part of the crafting process.
The specific rules for Scribe Scroll supersedes any MC rules the spells may had before. And if you ignore anything MC related while using a scroll of fabricate, it functions as intended imho.
Thus you just determine the effect by picking a legal item for the MC used for its crafting process.
(Note: Reading the Scroll may be insufficient to reveal the MC used and may need an Identify spell to reveal that information imho).
As said before, Fabricate has similar limitation like Wish, where you have to determine the MC values (gold & xp in the chase of Wish; material type in the chase of Fabricate).


I really don't get why some see this so problematic. Imho everything works somehow. Maybe just not as (everyone/most of us) expected, but it works.

Just as friendly reminder: This is not a play advice. I can see why a DM/table may want to handle this differently, if they don't want the scrolls to be abused to transport big amounts of raw materials ( or for any other fishy situations like warlock's Imbue Items).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Excuse me, but how is that not more specific?Because it's flat-out incorrect, and if the spell has its target as its material component, it does not work. It's like if the body adjustment claimed it healed damage you took but the text said it healed "power points" instead of "hit points." It's clearly a typo, whether because the author had no clue what he (or she) was doing, or someone (or possibly multiple someones, since editing is a thing) wasn't paying attention.

[Gruftzwerg]

Because it's flat-out incorrect, and if the spell has its target as its material component, it does not work.

Why should that be the chase?
Targeting is not part of the effect. It's part of the casting.
Let me remind you again that a spell's rule text not sole consists the spells effect. It may also contain additional casting information.

So where is the problem with targeting the MC as part of the casting? The MC gets destroyed if you succeed the casting process and now you may determine the item you wanna craft as part of the effect. The MC get converted. Imho everything works as expected here.

It seems to me (no offense here) that you are having problems to see what is part of the casting and what is part of the spell's effect.


edit: typo

[loky1109]

So where is the problem with targeting the MC as part of the casting?


You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process.
You can't target the MC, because then you should select target MC already doesn't exist. Targeting isn't part of the casting, as we see in the first quote from SRD.


An individual spell is more specific and thus can supersede any general rule.
Fabricate doesn't have any specific rules about MC.
As I read this spell with my RAW-fu, you need raw material and MC "which costs the same amount as the raw materials". This aren't the same things. And this is pretty dysfunctional.

[Gruftzwerg]

You can't target the MC, because then you should select target MC already doesn't exist. Targeting isn't part of the casting, as we see in the first quote from SRD.


Fabricate doesn't have any specific rules about MC.
As I read this spell with my RAW-fu, you need raw material and MC "which costs the same amount as the raw materials". This aren't the same things. And this is pretty dysfunctional.


Casting Time

...

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

Even if it is at the end of the casting, the targeting is still part of it and not part of the effect. Otherwise the quoted sentence would be part of the "Effects". But as you can see, it is clearly categorized as part of the casting.

about Fabricate:

You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.


Material Component

The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.


The last sentence provides the info what the material component (MC) is: "the original material".
Thus any mention of the original material in the spells text refers to the MC.
The spell's text provides the info what happens to the original material/MC, thus trumping any general MC rules imho.

__

As a sidenote regarding "additional casting information". I notice that in most chases these are last in order of a spell's descriptor text. Most start with Fluff-text, then have the Spell's-Effect as main body and end with Additional Casting Information (Focus, xp, whatsoever..). Not always, but so often that I did take notice. This is not an argument itself, just something I noticed and that fits fabricate's spell description.

[loky1109]

about Fabricate:

The last sentence provides the info what the material component (MC) is: "the original material".
Thus any mention of the original material in the spells text refers to the MC.

It isn't clear for me. I see double pricing. But I can be wrong.


You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.


Even if it is at the end of the casting, the targeting is still part of it and not part of the effect. Otherwise the quoted sentence would be part of the "Effects". But as you can see, it is clearly categorized as part of the casting.

Disfunction RAW see I.

[Gruftzwerg]

It isn't clear for me. I see double pricing. But I can be wrong.






Disfunction RAW see I.

I agree that the author could have worded it less confusing (like many other rule text in 3.5).

But the rules for "targeting" is still categorized under "Casting Time". Thus technically it is clearly not part of the effect. Even if it is the last thing you do during your "casting time" after everything else (after the S,V,M components, after resolving potential AoO and whatsoever else may potentially happen in the meanwhile).

Since the spell's text doesn't explicitly call out that the "targeting" is part of the effect (IIRC some spells do this), we have to follow the general rules that they are still part of the casting and not of the effect.

Imho, sticking to the interpretation (of the rules) that cause the least dysfunctions is the more practical solution for a RAW point of view. RAI on the other hand as said, it depends on the DM/table and the actual situation what is best (imho).

[AsuraKyoko]

Imho, sticking to the interpretation (of the rules) that cause the least dysfunctions is the more practical solution for a RAW point of view. RAI on the other hand as said, it depends on the DM/table and the actual situation what is best (imho).

This is 100% the correct approach.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It also requires houserules to prevent RAW dysfunctions -- like the stupidity of having a spell's material component be its target. There's no way to interpret that while actually sticking to RAW which isn't a dysfunction.

[Jack_Simth]

It also requires houserules to prevent RAW dysfunctions -- like the stupidity of having a spell's material component be its target. There's no way to interpret that while actually sticking to RAW which isn't a dysfunction.

There are multiple core spells that have similar issues. Trap the Soul, Refuge, and Instant Summons to name three (and two of those have an easy, Core, material component bypass via Shades). How they're supposed to play out - at least for normal casting - is obvious enough, even if using them in a playable manner isn't technically RAW. Fabricate isn't any different in this regard.

[sreservoir]

Curiously, Fabricate doesn't actually even target its material component, it targets a space. Make of this what you will.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Curiously, Fabricate doesn't actually even target its material component, it targets a space. Make of this what you will.I...think that's supposed to be the volume of material you target. It says, "Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell."

Though you are correct. It doesn't actually say that in the Target line. It does say "see text," though, for what it's worth.

[Jack_Simth]

I...think that's supposed to be the volume of material you target. It says, "Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell."

Though you are correct. It doesn't actually say that in the Target line. It does say "see text," though, for what it's worth.

But it doesn't actually target a component! Being a volume spell would get rid of the RAW contradiction, wouldn't it? You're no longer targeting something that no longer exists....

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But it doesn't actually target a component! Being a volume spell would get rid of the RAW contradiction, wouldn't it? You're no longer targeting something that no longer exists....Except you're turning one thing into another thing, except that thing is no longer a thing because it's nothing.

You're either targeting an empty area where the material used to be or the stuff in the area (see text), but either way, the thing you're affecting...isn't, anymore.

[Crichton]

Except you're turning one thing into another thing, except that thing is no longer a thing because it's nothing.

You're either targeting an empty area where the material used to be or the stuff in the area (see text), but either way, the thing you're affecting...isn't, anymore.

If you're targeting an empty area, you're not turning nothing into nothing. You're destroying the Material Component, and creating the product in the targeted area. That's not dysfunctional. The specific text is "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material" so if you destroy the component, target the space you want the product to be, the spell then creates the product (thus 'converting' the original material into a product made of that material), subject to the limitations in the spell text.

All you've done in this case is invented an arcane version of Star Trek's replicators - turn raw matter into energy, then turn that energy into a finished product. That's well within the text of this spell, with no dysfunction if you're not targeting the components.



The only dysfunction you've been discussing about is that you can't target a material component that's destroyed, but if you're not targeting the original material, that dysfunction doesn't exist. The spell never actually states that the volume area of the Target line IS the material component, merely how large it can be. Targeting the space you want the finished product to appear fits just fine into the spell effect, and the limitation of volume, and every other parameter of the spell, does it not?

[Jack_Simth]

If you're targeting an empty area, you're not turning nothing into nothing. You're destroying the Material Component, and creating the product in the targeted area. That's not dysfunctional. The specific text is "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material" so if you destroy the component, target the space you want the product to be, the spell then creates the product (thus 'converting' the original material into a product made of that material), subject to the limitations in the spell text.

All you've done in this case is invented an arcane version of Star Trek's replicators - turn raw matter into energy, then turn that energy into a finished product. That's well within the text of this spell, with no dysfunction if you're not targeting the components.



The only dysfunction you've been discussing about is that you can't target a material component that's destroyed, but if you're not targeting the original material, that dysfunction doesn't exist. The spell never actually states that the volume area of the Target line IS the material component, merely how large it can be. Targeting the space you want the finished product to appear fits just fine into the spell effect, and the limitation of volume, and every other parameter of the spell, does it not?
Also implies that a Fabricate scroll needs the components at construction time: So you get a scroll of Fabricate(Suit of Admanatine Fullplate) rather than just a scroll of Fabricate.

Has some unfortunate implications for actual play when it comes to things that let you skip components, however (unless you like having essentially unlimited wealth, of course).

[Gruftzwerg]

Curiously, Fabricate doesn't actually even target its material component, it targets a space. Make of this what you will.

The "Target:" line sets here a limitation what can be targeted. It's just that the limitation is defined by volume/lvl (and not by creature/object, living/undead, race type or whatsoever..). The "see text" is referring to the exception that minerals have to face (smaller volume amount/lvl).
It's not targeting space! It's targets material of a certain volume.

_______________
_______________


Another indicator imho why "targeting" has to be part of the casting time is the casting time itself. I mean, the casting time of possible multiple rounds implies this. Or do you think that you cast the spell for several rounds and target the MC at the end of the cast in the last round of casting? Imho you are targeting the MC every turn of the casting time of Fabricate. When the cast finishes, you get the effect: the MC gets turned into the final product on a successful craft roll.


Imho, I've shown that "targeting" is part of the "casting" and not the effect (and thus happens before the effect takes place) by RAW. I could provide an interpretation that doesn't cause dysfunctions and so far no RAW arguments have been made against it.

But what I see is, that people now try to use RAI to interpret a dysfunction into the spell. But that is not in the domain of RAI. Sole RAW can create dysfunctions. The purpose of RAI is to find out the intention of the designers. I think we can agree that the intention can never have the aim to create a dysfunction. Thus, you may not claim that an argument is RAI when it creates a dysfunction.

So, imho, if you want to see/interpret a dysfunction into Fabricate, the interpretation has to be 100% RAW and may not contain any RAI arguments. And so far, I fail to see any valid arguments that Fabricate is dysfunctional by RAW (if you apply the Specific Trumps General rule correct).

[sreservoir]

Also implies that a Fabricate scroll needs the components at construction time: So you get a scroll of Fabricate(Suit of Admanatine Fullplate) rather than just a scroll of Fabricate.

Has some unfortunate implications for actual play when it comes to things that let you skip components, however (unless you like having essentially unlimited wealth, of course).

Well, you'd have a scroll of fabricate (5500 gp worth of adamantine). The material component has to be included in the scroll, the choice of product you convert the material into is a decision about the spell effect that doesn't specify that it is, or logically have to be, determined before the spell comes into effect. So by default a scroll isn't specific to the product, only to the original materials.

(Skipping components is kind of just a problem in general, though I don't think it has to be as big a deal in this case specifically, since there's no indication that you treat a spell effect with no component that duplicates a spell that does specify a component as if you'd provided any particular material component; you can't just use one of the abilities that make arbitrary spells have no material component to cast a spell with the optional component agony, not provided because it now doesn't have components, and get a free +2 caster level. This is a bigger deal when you're producing spell effects where the components are a cost that stands separately from the effect, but casting fabricate without the material doesn't like, trick the rules into believing that you provided a hallucinated material component of arbitrary value. It just takes you 0 rounds to convert no material into a product of the same material as no material.
Also, for making items specifically, although spell-like abilities can substitute for a spell, the fact that the SLA doesn't have a material component per se doesn't provide any special exemption from the item requiring, as a cost of its creation, the components the spell requires. Those are separate, expressly based on the spell (even if perhaps only by oversight) for the item types that duplicate spell effects, and often wildly distinct from the spells' actual components in the case of items with their own write-ups.)

I don't think for a minute that this is remotely the intended reading, of course, and certainly not the only possible reading even taking RAW at face value.


Another indicator imho why "targeting" has to be part of the casting time is the casting time itself. I mean, the casting time of possible multiple rounds implies this. Or do you think that you cast the spell for several rounds and target the MC at the end of the cast in the last round of casting? Imho you are targeting the MC every turn of the casting time of Fabricate. When the cast finishes, you get the effect: the MC gets turned into the final product on a successful craft roll.

No, this is consistent with destroying the material component as part of the casting of the spell, and inconsistent with it being determined at targeting as part of the effect. Casting the spell is what you're doing up until the spells comes into effect. Targets are determined when the spell comes into effect. In order to determine the casting time, which must be determined before the spell comes into effect, because you have to spend those rounds casting the spell, you have to designate the materials to be affected before you finish casting.


Imho, I've shown that "targeting" is part of the "casting" and not the effect (and thus happens before the effect takes place) by RAW. I could provide an interpretation that doesn't cause dysfunctions and so far no RAW arguments have been made against it.

No, that's not how spell effects work (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime).

[Gruftzwerg]

Target or Targets

Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

"You do not have to" implies that it is still legal to select the target before the casting is finished. It's not a hard rule.

I still fail to see any evidence provided that the "targeting" is part of the effect.


Here the evidence that the descriptor text of a spell may contain additional casting information:


Descriptive Text

This portion of a spell description details what the spell does and how it works. If one of the previous entries in the description included "see text," this is where the explanation is found.

The "Target:" line of Fabricate includes "see text" and thus the part of Fabricates text (about targeting the MC) is explaining the details of the normal targeting process. This text part is not part of the spell's effect.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think you guys are missing a wrinkle with fabricate.

You don't need enough material to produce the end product. You need the material to be the correct type of material to produce the end product and be worth 1/3rd the cost of the end product.

The target line on Fabricate is an area. Not an object existing in an area. The target is the area you want to produce the object IN.

If the line was targeting an object in an area it would read "An object that occupies an area no more than XYZ".

The line instead reads "An area up to XYZ"

The target is a space, not an object.

The line "Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell." suggests that non-magic, non-creature objects can be created rather than just transmuted by this spell. What more, transmutation can create mass. Enlarge person is a transmutation. Small things can grow in size or multiply into larger or more things using just transmutation magic.

For example, if you have 1 platinum coin you can cast fabricate to produce 3 identical platinum coins. The coins are of the same material and the original coin is worth the same as 1/3rd crafting value of 3 platinum coins. The spell specifies that the material component needs to be of the same type of material and 1/3rd the end product's value, not that it be explicitly the material that would be required to produce the end product. You can fabricate less into more. You can chain fabricate to triple the value of a raw material over and over.

I agree with 1, and don't think it makes the scroll unusable. A fabricate scroll as listed could create any zero cost mundane item. To make a more useful scroll you should produce it with a material component expended, and at that point the scroll will store that value and the types of material you used.

A fabricate scroll costing 2115gp that used iron and wood material as components could produce any iron or wood object you can craft within the limits of the spell's target area, up to a value of 3000gp. As you can see, the scroll is actually a net positive value. Why spend 16500gp on adimantine full plate for your dwarf cleric when you can guidance of the avatar the party wizard a decent craft check and hand him a scroll of fabricate costing 6615gp? You can also turn a small valuable thing into a big thing of less value. Got a masterwork light wooden shield and need a rowboat? Fabricate the masterwork shield into a rowboat or number of rowboats.

This gets worse when you have fabricate as an SLA because the material component line vanishes. Suddenly you can just straight up poof into existence any mundane object you could craft up to the volume limit of the target line.

[Vaern]

The odd thing about fabricate is that the material component is also the target of the spell. If the materials are built into the scroll then you have no target when you actually cast the spell, which would cause it to fizzle.

[AvatarVecna]

The odd thing about fabricate is that the material component is also the target of the spell. If the materials are built into the scroll then you have no target when you actually cast the spell, which would cause it to fizzle.

That's more or less the idea behind the thread's creation, yeah.

When casting the spell...well, the destruction of the material and the transformation of the target happen simultaneously. I can suspend disbelief. But when the scroll os created, it consumed the component. And then the scroll sits innandragon's hoard for a thousand years. And then it's cast. But it's target has long since ceased to be, and that makes it harder to suspend disbelief.

[Crichton]

The odd thing about fabricate is that the material component is also the target of the spell..


That's more or less the idea behind the thread's creation, yeah.

When casting the spell...well, the destruction of the material and the transformation of the target happen simultaneously. I can suspend disbelief. But when the scroll os created, it consumed the component. And then the scroll sits innandragon's hoard for a thousand years. And then it's cast. But it's target has long since ceased to be, and that makes it harder to suspend disbelief.



That WAS part of the initial question of the thread, but as has been pointed out a few times now, when you read the spell's text, the Target entry IS NOT the component of the spell, but rather is the space in which the end product of the spell is created. That doesn't remove all of the questions that have been posited, but it does remove those related to the destruction of the material component and how you can target something that's been destroyed or doesn't exist.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another fun thing you can do with fabricate is destroy large mundane things. Say you want to level a castle. You cast fabricate with the castle as a material component and poof, no castle.

[loky1109]

Another fun thing you can do with fabricate is destroy large mundane things. Say you want to level a castle. You cast fabricate with the castle as a material component and poof, no castle.
I don't think castle is "raw material".

[Fouredged Sword]

I don't think castle is "raw material".

You don't need to use the raw material required to make a specific thing. You can use any material as a material component so long as it is of the same type as the thing you are trying to fabricate. Take 1 diamond and a castle, cast fabricate, and produce 50 cubic feet of diamond, a rock, and a stick. It's a profession gemcutting check.

The only requirement is that the value of the material being used as the material component is equal to the value of the raw material that would go into the end product. It doesn't have to be that material. It just needs to be the same type of material.

Diamond + wood + stone = Diamond + wood + stone.

The area limit only applies to the end product. There is no restriction on how large of a space the material component can occupy.

[RSGA]

Given the Close range of Fabricate, that would have to be a very small castle or else there's going to need to be some NI caster level boosting going on to get the castle in 25 ft + 5ft/2 levels. Also a very long casting time, if there's nothing magical in/of the castle.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Given the Close range of Fabricate, that would have to be a very small castle or else there's going to need to be some NI caster level boosting going on to get the castle in 25 ft + 5ft/2 levels. Also a very long casting time, if there's nothing magical in/of the castle.You can fully charm a creature even if only one space is in your range. Why would you think you couldn't target a whole object the same way?

[sreservoir]

Unless you're a spellcasting creature that lasts hands or arms (in which case it's good enough for you to be touching the component), you still need to have the component "in hand", so you might need a really big hand...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unless you're a spellcasting creature that lasts hands or arms (in which case it's good enough for you to be touching the component), you still need to have the component "in hand", so you might need a really big hand...Or you could try touching it...

[AsuraKyoko]

That would probably only result in at most 1 cubic foot/level of the castle getting destroyed, since that's the maximum volume you can produce, and the spell isn't going to use up more than you need. Additionally, castle rock is probably worth more than raw stone, which probably changes reduces the amount you destroy even further.

[Wintermoot]

Fabricate that locked and barred door into several small wooden ship models. The fifth level Knock spell.

[Gruftzwerg]

Just finished my BORG Queen build and guess what:

Thx due to Hivemind, she can cast Fabricate without needing Material Components. And she shares this ability to all other BORG who then will slowly but steadily craft more and more BORG cubes/spheres/pyramids to invade the 3.5 multiverse..^^

[RSGA]

So in part because I did misread things a little in thread, but also because traditionally large things like walls get treated as multiple objects/sections. So unless you're tagging Hermit's Castle you don't get more than the last 10 foot section in the range similar to how if you have a treasure that's 6 acid flasks you're only mage handing or telekinesising the ones in range since that's the easiest comparison that's not just a wall with a different spacial orientation.

Also, given that the casting time says it's based on material to be affected, even Hermit's Castle is taking somewhere north of 20 rounds based on some simple rounding for D&D maths.

[nedz]

Fabricate that locked and barred door into several small wooden ship models. The fifth level Knock spell.

Still it would be useful to more conveniently recover those mithril doors one occasionally finds in old abandoned Dwarf settlements — though I would recommend crafting some suits of armour rather than mithril ships in bottles.

[Fouredged Sword]

That would probably only result in at most 1 cubic foot/level of the castle getting destroyed, since that's the maximum volume you can produce, and the spell isn't going to use up more than you need. Additionally, castle rock is probably worth more than raw stone, which probably changes reduces the amount you destroy even further.

The amount of material component needed to cast the spell isn't determined by the volume of the end product. It is entirely determined by the value of the end product. A castle has a specific value. As a material component in fabricate it can be used to make any product up to three times the castle's value that is made of the same type of materials as the castle.

That's the thing I think most people in the thread are not getting. Fabricate doesn't take the material required to make a thing to make a thing. It requires a sacrifice of VALUE to magically will into being a object up to three times that value.


Fabricate that locked and barred door into several small wooden ship models. The fifth level Knock spell.

The value of fabricate is that it is one of the most open ended spells in the wizard's 5th level spell options. Yeah, a lot of the effects it can generate are worth less than your average specific 5th level spell. A lot of them are worth a whole lot more than the wrong 5th level spell for that moment, and you can generally FIND a way to creatively use fabricate.

[sreservoir]

Or you could try touching it...

That's specific to being a "spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms". The MM 315 rule makes no indication that it should apply to characters who are not spellcasting creatures that lack hands or arms, and is presented as exception to the general rule because such creatures, well, don't have hands to do hands things with.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One bit of cheese the current fabricate allows you to do is to pull cubes of literally any material out of your spell component pouch so long as it's cheap enough, since fabricate uses literally any material as a spell component. This means you've got access to an infinite number of >1 cp cubes of anything you want. So feel free to pull out a literal ton of .99 cp cubes of gold or riverine or glassteel or thinaun or antimatter or...

[Bohandas]

I feel strongly that option 3 is the correct one, and would be very upset if a DM tried to impose option 1 or 2 on me. This seems to me to be clearly a technicality the designers just didn't think of, and that the way the spell should work is, as you say, obvious.

Seconded .

[unseenmage]

Fabricate that locked and barred door into several small wooden ship models. The fifth level Knock spell.

One of my favorite tricks is to Fabricate the desired part of a structure to be separated from that structure while still also being one object and then Animate Objects/Minor Servitor (or Shrink Item even) the desired door, or trap, or hallway, etc.

It's a lot easier to loot those built-in features of a dungeon when they're not only no longer built-in, but can walk into your Enveloping pit by themselves.