OOTS #1254 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[dancrilis]

Serini is great.

I might be missing the point that is being made in the comic because I still basically agree with her on her logic.

[WindStruck]

Eh.. Serini's logic .. shall we say, hypocritical?

Can't and won't trust the order to not destroy this gate, even though Roy spelled it out to them that they wouldn't destroy this gate because it's the last one.

Meanwhile, she says she normally would care who controls the last gate - except in this case she doesn't because this is the last one.

Quite frankly, I think she's turning into a Scrappy and needs an attitude adjustment, or I'd just rather see her gone.

[drazen]

They really need to explain the Godsmoot: if the lich and goblin get the Gate, the gods will destroy the world ANYWAY.

Serini does cite (without knowing) the Fiends' desire for "destructive, unnecessary conflict." They stopped V from warning Roy off destroying Girard's Gate, after all, although I am still puzzled as to what the IFCC's ultimate goal is.

[Windscion]

Her logic is fine. What she lacks are facts, and she's unlikely to trust any new facts provided by the stickies.

[Wraithfighter]

Serini is great.

I might be missing the point that is being made in the comic because I still basically agree with her on her logic.

The point is mostly that she doesn't know or understand what the Gate is going to be for if Xykon takes it. She's operating on an assumption that nothing could be worse than all the gates getting destroyed.

Now, that isn't the worst assumption to make by any stretch. But, well, she's also wrong, even in this case. If Redcloak seizes the gate, the outcome could be so, so much worse than the gate being destroyed. Imagine entire heavens of souls being devoured and destroyed...

[merget]

Her logic is rock-solid. The main problem is that the gods are likely to destroy the world if Xykon/Redcloak get the gate, but she doesn't know that.
Secondary problems are that Roy should've brought that up ASAP, and Serini should've responded to the sendings to deliver her ultimatum sooner (preferably when there were more gates left).

[HalfTangible]

... okay, Roy, this is the part where you tear into her so hard that her trollHalf comes off.


Serini is great.

I might be missing the point that is being made in the comic because I still basically agree with her on her logic.

I am presuming here that she knows Xykon's plan but is unaware of Redcloak's plan to essentially blackmail the gods, which would naturally lead said gods to destroying the world pre-emptively. Like they almost just did and may still decide to do.

Even then, no, she's very clearly in the wrong even if she's supposed to have an understandable viewpoint. Her "logic" is that evil gaining the power to unmake who/whatever they please is the best move. And no, no one is going to be better off if Xykon is the one with control of the gate. He will unleash the Snarl at completely random targets just cuz he's bored. The guy isn't a complete idiot but he's very blunt and has little to no patience for long-term strategy. Once upon a time he would've been content to unleash it just once or twice as a demonstration, but the dude's gone full undead madman since then. It would be a slow, painful unmaking of the world at the hands of a mad lich, and unlike a normal tyrant, you can't simply wait for Xykon to die and hope his successor is less of a jerk. There will never be a better chance to stop him than *right now*.

And the fact that she doesn't seem to consider that she could team up with the Order (all of whom are fully aware of the danger the gates pose, are high level and have even more experience against this threat than she does) to end the threat entirely is baffling. Yeah, they destroyed the previous gate, but there was another gate and they knew it. That's no longer the case. The circumstances have changed.

[chy03001]

Is it weird that I completely understand Serini's argument?

[brian 333]

Time for some confused ramblings by our Dynamic Dwarf Duo, which will be as incomprehensible to us as it will be comprehended by Serini.

Come on, Durkon!

[JT]

Eh.. Serini's logic .. shall we say, hypocritical?

Can't and won't trust the order to not destroy this gate, even though Roy spelled it out to them that they wouldn't destroy this gate because it's the last one.
Doesn't trust the word of a random sword-swinger. Not unreasonable.

Then, she says that it did matter -- past tense, so when there were more gates. Then she had the luxury of caring who it was controlled by. She never said that normally, she wouldn't care who controlled the last gate -- that's your addition. But now that there's just the one gate, her primary consideration is that the gate remains in existence, which is threatened by multiple groups fighting over/around it.

[JT]

By the way, Giant... thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!

[gatemansgc]

definitely bonkers argument!

[JT]

Serini's "does/doesn't care about who controls the gate" logic is actually very similar to Roy's, and to Dorukan's (as implied by the self-destruct, ad given to us by Shojo).

When there were multiple gates remaining, Roy is (or was) okay sacrificing a gate, to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.
As long as there were multiple gates, Dorukan was (by appearances) okay sacrificing his gate, to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.
As long as there were multiple gates, Serini says that she cared about her gate being controlled by the wrong people.

[TooSoon]

"So, have you ever heard of the Godsmoot Serini? Hold up, this will take a minute..."

[internisus]

Her logic is fine. What she lacks are facts, and she's unlikely to trust any new facts provided by the stickies.

She must have some kind of truth serum stashed away in her lair. Roy could volunteer to take something like that so she'd know to believe him about the Godsmoot.

[merget]

Can't and won't trust the order to not destroy this gate, even though Roy spelled it out to them that they wouldn't destroy this gate because it's the last one.

Meanwhile, she says she normally would care who controls the last gate - except in this case she doesn't because this is the last one.

How is any of that hypocritical? It's like being in an airplane, and watching as someone deliberately destroys all the engines one by one, until there's just one left. The plane will crash (killing everyone onboard) if that last engine is destroyed, and the person who destroyed the rest of them is trying to get to the last engine.

I think it would be pretty reasonable to try to stop them. Even if they pinky-promise that they're not going to destroy it, this time. Even if keeping them away from the engine allows the Dread Pirate Roberts to steal everyone's wallets.

[merget]

She must have some kind of truth serum stashed away in her lair. Roy could volunteer to take something like that so she'd know to believe him about the Godsmoot.

"Drink this, Roy. I promise it's truth serum."

[JT]

"Drink this, Roy. I promise it's truth serum."

"You drink some first, and then tell me again what it is."

(Yeah, the person offering poison could have dosed themselves w/ the antidote, but it's at least a bit of security.)

[Peelee]

This is exactly what I was hoping for. Reasonable discussion between two fairly understandable, opposing viewpoints. Of course, I'm. Still excited for Roy to drop the hammer on the information side of things, but it's clearly being done on a satisfying way. For me at least.

[merget]

Serini's "does/doesn't care about who controls the gate" logic is actually very similar to Roy's

Excellent point.

IMHO, her big mistake was not responding to the Orders sendings sooner. If she had, she could have delivered the ultimatum, "If you destroy Girard's gate, I'll let Xykon have the last gate before letting you anywhere near it."

[Matt620]

I completely understand Serini's argument. It is, however, abundantly stupid.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

"So, have you ever heard of the Godsmoot Serini? Hold up, this will take a minute..."

Yeah, waiting for this. As stubborn as she is it may not change her mind, but we’ll see.

[Rynjin]

Her logic is fine. What she lacks are facts, and she's unlikely to trust any new facts provided by the stickies.

Making decisions without having all the facts, when you know you don't have all the facts, and there are alternative paths to gain more information before you make said decision, is illogical. It doesn't really matter if the scattered wisps of information you have might be pieced together into a logical configuration.

It's like trying to put together a puzzle with a picture of a horse on it. You know you're missing pieces but complete the puzzle as best you can. What you end up with is a horrible, almost indecipherable jumble of pieces mashed wherever they vaguely fit. The mere act of continuing to put together the puzzle is the illogical part, no matter how painstakingly you make the effort to put pieces where they might fit.

[Liquor Box]

Her logic is rock-solid. The main problem is that the gods are likely to destroy the world if Xykon/Redcloak get the gate, but she doesn't know that.
Secondary problems are that Roy should've brought that up ASAP, and Serini should've responded to the sendings to deliver her ultimatum sooner (preferably when there were more gates left).

Her logic is terrible.

Roy's point that that the last gate is different from the earlier gates is correct, and completely predictable for Serini.

She also makes the point (again) that it is conflict that is the danger to the gate. But we know her endgame is for conflict to happen - someone to come and try to displace Xykon in the future.

Finally, she implies the same point she made earlier. That Xykon cannot be stopped by her or the Order or the Paladins (or by all of them combined. This is not logical based on what she appears to know - that Xykon beat her and a couple of her friends.

Serini again seems to suggest that she does not hold up much hope for her defences to stop Xykon.


Serini's "does/doesn't care about who controls the gate" logic is actually very similar to Roy's, and to Dorukan's (as implied by the self-destruct, ad given to us by Shojo).

When there were multiple gates remaining, Roy is (or was) okay sacrificing a gate, to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.
As long as there were multiple gates, Dorukan was (by appearances) okay sacrificing his gate, to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

As long as there were multiple gates, Serini says that she cared about her gate being controlled by the wrong people.

You are absolutely right. The last gate is different to the earlier ones. It is obvious and all players see it that way. Which is why it is flawed of Serini to assume Roy (or O-Chul) will apply the same reaosning to this gate as the previous ones.

Noone has disagreed with her that Xykon seizing the gate is better than destroying it. Where they disagree is whether trying to stop Xykon is better than letting him have it. I think letting him have it risks the gate's destruction more than trying to stop him.

[Emperor Time]

Serini does have a point since the order did lead to the destruction of Dorukan's gate too.

[merget]

Making decisions without having all the facts, when you know you don't have all the facts, and there are alternative paths to gain more information before you make said decision, is illogical.

The OOTS doesn't have all the facts either. There's so some "World inside the snarl" thing they don't understand, but that's not stopping them from acting on the information they have.

The only major fact that Serini is missing is, "the gods will probably destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate". And she probably doesn't even realize that's a possibility.

[Liquor Box]

How is any of that hypocritical? It's like being in an airplane, and watching as someone deliberately destroys all the engines one by one, until there's just one left. The plane will crash (killing everyone onboard) if that last engine is destroyed, and the person who destroyed the rest of them is trying to get to the last engine.

I think it would be pretty reasonable to try to stop them. Even if they pinky-promise that they're not going to destroy it, this time. Even if keeping them away from the engine allows the Dread Pirate Roberts to steal everyone's wallets.

Good analogy. The problem is that the gates they destroyed were in imminent danger of being captured by Xykon.

So a better analogy would be if you are in an airplane and every time fire spreads to and engine, you unscrew the engine. Now you are on your last engine, so it is obvious that you only have one option - to stop the fire spreading to the engine. Serini wants to allow the fire to spread the the engine and simply hope that it survives long enough for someone else to come to the rescue.


The OOTS doesn't have all the facts either. There's so some "World inside the snarl" thing they don't understand, but that's not stopping them from acting on the information they have.

The only major fact that Serini is missing is, "the gods will probably destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate". And she probably doesn't even realize that's a possibility.

Your raise the the Order doesn't understand the world inside the snarl to demonstrate that they don't know all the facts. Then immediately afterward you assert that there's only one fact Serini is missing (a different one). Are you saying Serini does know about the world inside the Snarl.

[hungrycrow]

The OOTS doesn't have all the facts either. There's so some "World inside the snarl" thing they don't understand, but that's not stopping them from acting on the information they have.

The difference is Serini is deliberately cutting off sources of new information. The Order isn't investigating the rifts, but that's only because Team Evil is putting them on a ticking clock. As soon as they had a chance to get info from Serini, they leapt at it.

[Peelee]

The difference is Serini is deliberately cutting off sources of new information.

When the source has destroyed two Gates, can you really blame her?

Imean, I'm sure some people can, but still.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I hate to admit it, but Serini has a point. If there's only one team at the Gate, nobody's gonna have any reason to destroy the gate, and not destroying the Gate is priority 1.

Of course, if—for instance—two powerful members of that one team had very different plans of what they were gonna use the Gate for, that might change the calculus. And anyone who trusts the Order enough to probably not blow up the last Gate might weigh that risk against the risk of what Team Evil does with the Gate differently than Serini does.

[JT]

Good analogy. The problem is that the gates they destroyed were in imminent danger of being captured by Xykon.

So a better analogy would be if you are in an airplane and every time fire spreads to and engine, you unscrew the engine. Now you are on your last engine, so it is obvious that you only have one option - to stop the fire spreading to the engine. Serini wants to allow the fire to spread the the engine and simply hope that it survives long enough for someone else to come to the rescue.

Yup. Except (1) the fire is already at the last engine (just hasn't caught the internals yet), and (2) Serini doesn't know that the Order and the Guard are in agreement with the engine being absolutely essential.

For that matter, I'm not sure the Order itself knows what it would really do if the choice were between losing to Xykon and probably having the world unmade, or destroying the last gate because maybe the Snarl isn't really as bad (now?) as they'd been told, since there's this whole world inside the rift (and they didn't see what happened at Girard's Gate post-destruction).

[merget]

So a better analogy would be if you are in an airplane and every time fire spreads to and engine, you unscrew the engine. Now you are on your last engine, so it is obvious that you only have one option - to stop the fire spreading to the engine. Serini wants to allow the fire to spread the the engine and simply hope that it survives long enough for someone else to come to the rescue.

The fire analogy doesn't work IMHO, since a fire would likely destroy the engine as well. As far as Serini knows, Xykon won't destroy the gate; he'll just use it as a superweapon to take over the world. Which would be BAD, but not as bad as destroying the world. Eventually, some bold hero will ambush Xykon when he's not in the same room as his superweapon, and that'll be that for the Empire of Xykon.

(Yes, I know that Redcloak's ritual won't give Xykon control of the gate, but very few people know that.)


Your raise the the Order doesn't understand the world inside the snarl to demonstrate that they don't know all the facts. Then immediately afterward you assert that there's only one fact Serini is missing (a different one). Are you saying Serini does know about the world inside the Snarl.

Fair enough; I meant RELEVANT facts. There are a ton of facts that neither side have, such as what the Oracle had for breakfast this morning, but most of those facts have no effect on their decisions. I'm just talking about the unknown facts that would affect their decisions.

In Serini's case, the main decision under discussion is whether to let Xykon have the gate. She thinks that it's a choice between "let the world probably get destroyed" vs "let an evil lich rule the world for the next few centuries", and she prefers option B. The fact that option B would lead to even more-certain world destruction is a MAJOR fact that she's missing.

As for the world in the snarl, we don't know what it is yet, so it's hard to say how it would affect their choices. Serini is so far down a wrong (but understandable IMHO) path that the world-in-snarl info would only be a minor blip on the choices she's made so far. It would probably have a bigger effect on the OOTS's actions, such as when V and Blackwing tried to stop Roy from destroying Girard's gate due to the world-in-snarl.

[Liquor Box]

I hate to admit it, but Serini has a point. If there's only one team at the Gate, nobody's gonna have any reason to destroy the gate, and not destroying the Gate is priority 1.

Of course, if—for instance—two powerful members of that one team had very different plans of what they were gonna use the Gate for, that might change the calculus. And anyone who trusts the Order enough to probably not blow up the last Gate might weigh that risk against the risk of what Team Evil does with the Gate differently than Serini does.

I agree that it's not really that predictable from Serini's perspecive that Team Evil will have conflict within itself at the gate. But she does predict that other adventurers will come to displace Xykon, so seems to view conflict as ultimately being inevitable.


Yup. Except (1) the fire is already at the last engine (just hasn't caught the internals yet), and (2) Serini doesn't know that the Order and the Guard are in agreement with the engine being absolutely essential.

For that matter, I'm not sure the Order itself knows what it would really do if the choice were between losing to Xykon and probably having the world unmade, or destroying the last gate because maybe the Snarl isn't really as bad (now?) as they'd been told, since there's this whole world inside the rift (and they didn't see what happened at Girard's Gate post-destruction).

She doesn't know (putting aside that they've now told her), but it is pretty obvious. They are all on the plane together, they all go down if the plane does. She knows she doesn't have the power to save the engine, but she has no idea whether the others do. She doesn't want to take the (seemingly very small) chance that the Order will contribute to the engine being destroyed, when the alternative is for it to be very probably be destroyed.


The fire analogy doesn't work IMHO, since a fire would likely destroy the engine as well. As far as Serini knows, Xykon won't destroy the gate; he'll just use it as a superweapon to take over the world. Which would be BAD, but not as bad as destroying the world. Eventually, some bold hero will ambush Xykon when he's not in the same room as his superweapon, and that'll be that for the Empire of Xykon.

(Yes, I know that Redcloak's ritual won't give Xykon control of the gate, but very few people know that.)

A fire would likely destroy the engine as well. Which makes it a great analogy because there's a high chance Xykon will destroy the gate or release the Snarl if he gets it.

Not on purpose mind you, but can you think of a way of using a chaotic god killer to rule the world that isn't dangerous. Xykon would be seeking to control the most dangerous thing in the universe without understanding it very well.

If Xykon gets the gate, him ruling for a few years is the best case scenario. At least as likely is that something he or his team does releases the snarl and destroys the world. Even in the best case scenario, Serini expects other adventurers to come in a few years to displace Xykon, which would mean the same conflict will arise as she is now seeking to avoid.


Fair enough; I meant RELEVANT facts. There are a ton of facts that neither side have, such as what the Oracle had for breakfast this morning, but most of those facts have no effect on their decisions. I'm just talking about the unknown facts that would affect their decisions.

In Serini's case, the main decision under discussion is whether to let Xykon have the gate. She thinks that it's a choice between "let the world probably get destroyed" vs "let an evil lich rule the world for the next few centuries", and she prefers option B. The fact that option B would lead to even more-certain world destruction is a MAJOR fact that she's missing.

As for the world in the snarl, we don't know what it is yet, so it's hard to say how it would affect their choices. Serini is so far down a wrong (but understandable IMHO) path that the world-in-snarl info would only be a minor blip on the choices she's made so far. It would probably have a bigger effect on the OOTS's actions, such as when V and Blackwing tried to stop Roy from destroying Girard's gate due to the world-in-snarl.

Sure. But it seems inconsistent to say "the order doesn't understand the situation because they don't know about the world in the rift", and then to completely dismiss Serini's lack of knowledge of the same.

However you split it, the Order seems to know more about what is going on than Serini. Part of that is down to their willingness to listen to their apparent enemies (which Shojo was at the time) instead of Serini preaching her nonsense logic at them

[Rynjin]

The OOTS doesn't have all the facts either. There's so some "World inside the snarl" thing they don't understand, but that's not stopping them from acting on the information they have.

The only major fact that Serini is missing is, "the gods will probably destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate". And she probably doesn't even realize that's a possibility.

Logic doesn't dictate perfect knowledge of every conceivable piece of information before making a decision, because that is impossible. Especially as there is a time constraint here which is immutable. A decision must be made, action taken, and there is not enough time to investigate the final piece of information that may or may not be relevant.

Serini, meanwhile, is ignorant of major world events that someone in her position should be keeping up with. She is missing a vital piece of information that she should know if her sources of information are half as good as she seems to think they are.

Even aside from that, her decision making appears addled. She possess information on two known quantities.

1.) A group of well-intentioned, if dubiously competent adventurers inclined to be willing to engage in reasonable discussion.

2.) A Chaotic Evil undead Sorcerer and his army of loyal followers, who crave world domination.

Plan A, to any reasonable and sane individual, is to attempt parley with the former group. They are potential allies, and more informed about recent world events. They are a valuable source of information and perhaps aid. Plan B is to potentially neutralize them if they end up being a threat.

Serini's Plan A, instead, is to aid her enemy with the idea that the outcome of said enemy succeeding is less bad than the undetermined goals of the potential allies.

This Plan A is based on emotion, utterly. There is no logical drive behind it, and it is driven entirely by assumptions. A source of information is in front of her, and is discarded, because she assumes her conclusions are accurate with zero proof.

She is arrogant at best, and incompetent at worst; the latter in a potential legal sense if she is really prone to making such rash and self-destructive decisions in her advanced age.

[Thales]

I can understand why Serini isn't going after Xykon, but Redcloak seems like a softer target. He's plenty canny, but I don't think he could get out of an antimagic zone trap like the Order or Xykon could. And he's not exactly with Xykon all the time. Something similar goes for the MitD. She probably knows what he is, and given her beastmistress ways and his sabotage of Team Evil, she might have reason to think she could turn him. Is her fear of Xykon just so much it extends to his various allies?

[danielxcutter]

I dunno, but it kinda feels like she’s not listening to what Roy is trying to say, like at all.

[Liquor Box]

I can understand why Serini isn't going after Xykon, but Redcloak seems like a softer target. He's plenty canny, but I don't think he could get out of an antimagic zone trap like the Order or Xykon could. And he's not exactly with Xykon all the time. Something similar goes for the MitD. She probably knows what he is, and given her beastmistress ways and his sabotage of Team Evil, she might have reason to think she could turn him. Is her fear of Xykon just so much it extends to his various allies?

I'd guess that she doesn't see much point in picking off a few of his subordinates because it wont stop him.

[merget]

They are all on the plane together, they all go down if the plane does.

I don't think that matters. From Serini's perspective, the OOTS looks a lot like a group of fanatics that have taken the philosophy of "give me liberty or give me death" to the extreme of "the world would be better off dead than be ruled by Xykon".


A fire would likely destroy the engine as well. Which makes it a great analogy because there's a high chance Xykon will destroy the gate or release the Snarl if he gets it.

Not on purpose mind you, but can you think of a way of using a chaotic god killer to rule the world that isn't dangerous.

Every weapon is dangerous. But as Roy pointed out himself while fighting Durkula, Xykon isn't suicidal and doesn't want the world destroyed.

The OOTS and allies have destroyed three gates so far. Xykon and Redcloak only destroyed one, and I'm not sure whether Serini knows who destroyed Lirian's gate, so the tally might be "Xykon: destroyed zero gates" in her mind. Either way, Xykon has a better track record, so I can see why Serini would consider the gate safer with him.


Logic doesn't dictate perfect knowledge of every conceivable piece of information before making a decision, because that is impossible. Especially as there is a time constraint here which is immutable. A decision must be made, action taken, and there is not enough time to investigate the final piece of information that may or may not be relevant.

Yes, that was the point I was making. Liquor Box was essentially arguing that Serini was illogical for acting without perfect knowledge. My response was to point out that the OOTS doesn't have perfect knowledge either. They're all acting on what they know.


Serini, meanwhile, is ignorant of major world events that someone in her position should be keeping up with. She is missing a vital piece of information that she should know if her sources of information are half as good as she seems to think they are.

I think you're underestimating how uniquely well-informed the OOTS is. The most important information that they have, which Serini doesn't have, come from the Godsmoot and from Thor.

IIRC, the Godsmoot was protected from pretty much every form of scrying, and none of the other participants are allowed to leave. The OOTS are the only people in the outside world who saw what happened there.

As for Thor, that required a unique combination of two people who knew about the snarl (a secret only known to a handful of people), who had to die, get divine intervention from one of the few gods who knew the situation, and come back. Once again, we have info that only two people in the world were given, and both are in the OOTS.

I'm not sure how Serini could have reasonably known about any of that. We're talking about information that was so well-hidden, she doesn't even know it exists. (Of course, she could have learned it by responding to the OOTS Sending spells and actually TALKING to them. IMHO, that was her greatest folly.)

[JT]

I dunno, but it kinda feels like she’s not listening to what Roy is trying to say, like at all.

Shocked. I am shocked that a bitter old adventurer hermit/loner is dubious of a bunch of people telling her that they're on her side.

We know they're the heroes and protagonists of this story.
She does not.

[Liquor Box]

I don't think that matters. From Serini's perspective, the OOTS looks a lot like a group of fanatics that have taken the philosophy of "give me liberty or give me death" to the extreme of "the world would be better off dead than be ruled by Xykon".

They removed one burning engine from a plane that had another. That does not justify a view that they are fanatics.


Every weapon is dangerous. But as Roy pointed out himself while fighting Durkula, Xykon isn't suicidal and doesn't want the world destroyed.

The OOTS and allies have destroyed three gates so far. Xykon and Redcloak only destroyed one, and I'm not sure whether Serini knows who destroyed Lirian's gate, so the tally might be "Xykon: destroyed zero gates" in her mind. Either way, Xykon has a better track record, so I can see why Serini would consider the gate safer with him.

No Xykon doesn't want the world destroyed, but he is clearly prepared to follow a dangerous path and take risks to gain the power of the Snarl. Noone has suggested he'd deliberately destroy it. But this isn't just a dangerous weapon, it is the most dangerous weapon there is, and Xykon doesn't know how it works.

From what Serini says, it sounds like she knows a rogue paladin destroyed one gate (although O-Chul had tried to do so) and Roy destroyed another. But simply counting the numbers is simplistic. Serini has already said that se sees the conflict as the main threat, but her mistake is thinking eliminating the Order and Paladins destroyed another.


Yes, that was the point I was making. Liquor Box was essentially arguing that Serini was illogical for acting without perfect knowledge. My response was to point out that the OOTS doesn't have perfect knowledge either. They're all acting on what they know.

I absolutely was not saying that Serini was illogical for acting on imperfect information. I think that, based on what she knows, she is acting illogically.

I was only calling you out on saying that the only fact Serini didn't know about is the Godsmoot and in the very same post noting that the Order doesn't understand the world inside the Snarl.

I am however critical of Serini for not seeking out more info. She had a risk free opportunity to question the paladins, and didn't to so. She had no idea how much they might have known that she didn't.


Shocked. I am shocked that a bitter old adventurer hermit/loner is dubious of a bunch of people telling her that they're on her side.
I'm not.

Someone who is a bitter loner will not usually make rational decisions about accepting help from others, so it's not shocking Serini isn't. You labelling her a bitter loner is just pointing out why she isn't acting rationally.

[Petrocorus]

Hi, everyone.


... okay, Roy, this is the part where you tear into her so hard that her trollHalf comes off.

I am presuming here that she knows Xykon's plan but is unaware of Redcloak's .......That's no longer the case. The circumstances have changed.
I wonder if she knows that Xykon needs RC to control the gate. She certainly doesn't knows RC's real plan (unless she's been scrying on him for decades).
Because if she's knows X cannot control the gate without RC, then the most logical course of action IMHO would be to team up with the OotS to take out RC, even if Xykon survives. As reckless as he can be, he probably wouldn't destroy the last gate out of anger.


definitely bonkers argument!
Actually, can someone explain the last panel's joke to me?


I agree that it's not really that predictable from Serini's perspecive that Team Evil will have conflict within itself at the gate. But she does predict that other adventurers will come to displace Xykon, so seems to view conflict as ultimately being inevitable.

And those adventurers may know a lot less about the gate than Serini and the OotS and sincerely believe that destroying the gate would be the best way to stop Xykon.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Actually, can someone explain the last panel's joke to me?


"Bonkers" typically would mean something like "crazy" or "irrational", but Elan is confusing it with having to do with literally bonking someone in the head (as Serini would, if she weren't tied up). Haley's response goes back to using the normal definition.

[Liquor Box]

Actually, can someone explain the last panel's joke to me?


Saying an argument is 'bonkers' is an expression for saying it is crazy or doesn't make sense. Serini sometimes bonks (hits) people on the head with her stick when she is arguing with them. The last panel is playing off that double meaning.

Elan asks if Serini bonking people is what is meant by the expression 'bonkers argument'. Hayley says, no that's not what is meant, but in this case it's a bonkers argument for a different reason (because it doesn't make sense).

[Petrocorus]

"Bonkers" ...... normal definition.


Saying ........ (because it doesn't make sense).

Thank you both.

[tanonx]

(Of course, she could have learned it by responding to the OOTS Sending spells and actually TALKING to them. IMHO, that was her greatest folly.)

This bit right here is where the whole opera falls apart. Senri isn't trying. Senri just demands to be right, and gets mad when the world doesn't fall in line. She could give Old Man Greenhilt a run for his money. They ought to get together once all this is over, once their respective alignments throw their applications straight into the TN bin.

Every explanation for how Senri's information is imperfect, or how her logic is sound for the position she's in, ignore that she's been handed the means for that information on a silver platter. And she could've gotten it just as easily without that, too.

If she wants to call the shots, she can explain why it was the rag-tag adventurers who ended up down in Azure City after Dorukan's Gate blew, and not her making the rounds as soon as Lirian's Gate went down. Skeletron Prime and company were almost taken down by a ghost of one party member, you can't tell me scry-and-die was foreign to Dorukan. Talk to him, then talk to Lord Shojo, sneak to sneak. Between the three of you, and the chance to rub it in the face of a whole order of paladins, you could get Draketooth on side.

Who, incidentally, would also still be alive. Same story with Dorukan.

Instead, she sat in a hole, and watched each gate pop while her comrades died. I'm sure Xykon almost killing her was just as bad as Xykon actually killing two other people, then tearing their souls out, so it all evens out. I mean, what kind of crazy person would die fighting Xykon while hopelessly outmatched just to try and keep him from taking control of a Gate? Surely not the big dumb lunks who blow them up.

But that's okay, because here come the big dumb lunks, doing their best to deliver exclusive information straight from the gods to your ear. Unfortunately, it wasn't worth interrupting your morning toilet trip. Not even to misdirect them, or dupe them for your own ends, or even make the bare minimum effort to do something. All those ranks in Bluff, wasted.

It's a very cute logic circle we have going here, but it's a meaningless distraction. Serini had every chance to avoid this "hopeless" situation she's lamenting. She has completely and utterly blown it as a Gate guardian, and would rather let the world fall into darkness than admit it.

Either the narrative is bent out of shape, or one of these Paladins needs to drop a Detect Evil and get this party started.

[brian 333]

Serini knows that Xykon wants to use the gate to rule the world.

Premise A: If his goal is to rule the world, destroying the world cannot be his goal.

Premise B: If his goal to rule the world includes using the gate, then destroying the gate cannot be his goal because,
Premise B1: He cannot have a gate to use to rule the world if he uses it.

Therefore, A+B=C: Xykon is not a threat either to the existence of the world or to the gate itself. Both are required for him to gain the benefit of either.

Fact a: O'Chul tried and failed to destroy a gate, which was later destroyed by another Sapphire Guardian using his sword.

Fact b: Roy purposely and intentionally destroyed a gate to prevent Xykon from getting it.
Fact b1: Vaarsuvius made it possible by eliminating the guardians of the gate Roy destroyed.

Therefore a+b=c: Neither the surviving Sapphire Guards nor The Order of the Stick can be trusted, regardless of their stated intent, because their recent past has been a tale of more harm to the gates and more danger to the universe than has existed since Soon discovered the first rift.

How is Serini's position in any way illogical? Even if she had all the info, why should she trust these chumps to be the ones to save the world? They are the reason the world is in danger now!

[4sigma]

Roy's argument is reasonable, but Serini doesn't want to listen to reason. Presumably because of whatever it was that caused the Order of the Scribble to become so irrational towards each other.

I.e. as Roy says in #695, "What the hell happened between these people to turn them against each other like this?"

So, I expect she's beyond the Order's ability to reason with her.

[Ruck]

Her logic is fine.


I hate to admit it, but Serini has a point.


Is it weird that I completely understand Serini's argument?

Not at all. In fact, some of us have been saying for months that Serini's actions make logical sense from her perspective.

Some other people said she wanted Xykon to take the Gate, but I asked for evidence of that weeks ago and no one provided anything.


I dunno, but it kinda feels like she’s not listening to what Roy is trying to say, like at all.

It feels like he didn't put her in her place yet, I bet.

[tanonx]

Therefore, A+B=C: Xykon is not a threat either to the existence of the world or to the gate itself. Both are required for him to gain the benefit of either.

If not having the goal of destroying the world was enough to not be a threat to the world, the Order of the Stick would be golden right now. As demonstrated prior, you can blow up a gate without even knowing what it is. A murderous lunatic with poor impulse control and an unlimited lifespan is bound to make a wrong move sooner or later.



Fact a: O'Chul tried and failed to destroy a gate, which was later destroyed by another Sapphire Guardian using his sword.

Fact b: Roy purposely and intentionally destroyed a gate to prevent Xykon from getting it.
Fact b1: Vaarsuvius made it possible by eliminating the guardians of the gate Roy destroyed.

Therefore a+b=c: Neither the surviving Sapphire Guards nor The Order of the Stick can be trusted, regardless of their stated intent, because their recent past has been a tale of more harm to the gates and more danger to the universe than has existed since Soon discovered the first rift.

How is Serini's position in any way illogical? Even if she had all the info, why should she trust these chumps to be the ones to save the world? They are the reason the world is in danger now!

Lirian's Gate fell over terrible design and lax security. Dorukan put a self-destruct button on his that an idiot could (and did) bumble into pressing. Neither is more of a stretch than "someone took your sword to smash the gate" is.

Even if you group the paladins and Roy together, they've only just matched the amount of harm to the gates that the Order of the Scribble oversaw themselves. Why trust one group of chumps over the other?

[merget]

They removed one burning engine from a plane that had another. That does not justify a view that they are fanatics.

I don't think they're fanatics either. I'm just saying that Serini has cause to view them as such.

You consider Xykon to be an engine-destroying fire, but Serini views him more like someone who will use the engine's exhaust as a weapon. He wants to channel the engine, not destroy it. That's certainly what Xykon thinks the ritual will do, and the OOTS thought the same thing at the time until recently. (They didn't learn what the ritual actually does until there was only one gate left.) It really IS a valid perspective to say that they were destroying gates and risking the imminent destruction of the world, to prevent Xykon from ruling it.


But this isn't just a dangerous weapon, it is the most dangerous weapon there is, and Xykon doesn't know how it works.

Serini is one of the people who helped create the gate, so she probably knows how it works as well as anyone, and she obviously thinks it's plausible for someone to channel it as a weapon without it blowing up in their face.


I absolutely was not saying that Serini was illogical for acting on imperfect information. I think that, based on what she knows, she is acting illogically.

I was only calling you out on saying that the only fact Serini didn't know about is the Godsmoot and in the very same post noting that the Order doesn't understand the world inside the Snarl.

I was referring to an an earlier post, but scrolling back, that post was actually made by Rynjin. I apologize for mis-attributing it to you:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25398359&postcount=24

That post contains the "Serini is illogical for acting on imperfect information" point that I was rebutting, by pointing out that the OOTS also has imperfect information.

BTW, I didn't say that the Godsmoot info was the only fact in the entire world that Serini didn't know. I said it was the only major fact she didn't know. I realize I didn't define what I meant by "major", but my intention was "the only fact that would affect her actions". Her on-screen actions so far have had nothing to do with whether there's a world in the snarl; she would've done the same thing whether or not she knew that. But her actions have had everything to do with her belief that the world would be safer if Xykon held the gate instead of letting (or even helping) the OOTS fight Xykon over it, so the Godsmoot info (and Thor's revelation of WHY the gods would destroy the world if Xykon got the gate) would have completely changed her actions.


I am however critical of Serini for not seeking out more info. She had a risk free opportunity to question the paladins, and didn't to so. She had no idea how much they might have known that she didn't.

No argument there. She admittedly has reason to think she has all the information she needs, thanks to some obviously intense scrying/spying/god-knows-what-she-used-to-get-so-much-intel, but she didn't even bother taking five minutes to say, "I should interrogate them just in case there's any other info they somehow stumbled over."

Assuming, of course, that the paladins know about the Godsmoot & Thor events. As far as we know, the Sending in https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html was the only update they got after Durkon was cured of his "evil palette swap". They probably know the rough outlines of Godsmoot, but that only goes as far as "the gods voted to destroy the world", which Serini would probably interpret as "because those damn OOTS jerks keep destroying gates and the gods don't want the snarl to eat everyone's souls". It took Thor to reveal that it was moreso "because Redcloak will unleash the snarl on us gods if Xykon gets the gate".

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, the paladins only know about the Godsmoot if they were told about it right then and there. We can probably assume V gave a basic description, but there isn't much reason to believe they know any of the details in-depth.

[WindStruck]

I'm not really interested in this debate about Serini's "logic", as you all aren't going to be changing your minds.

But one thing is abundantly clear. Serini is woefully ignorant of the totality of circumstances, and she's going to keep acting like an obnoxious, dimwitted curmudgeon until she shuts up and listens.

[Chaosity]

Why does everyone think the godsmoot will convince Serini?
If the gods destroy the world then everyone's soul will go to the afterlife. If the snarl gets loose it will unmake a lot of souls before the gods can destroy it.
The world being destroyed is still the better of the 2 options.
It would only convince her more that she is right. There won't even be a lich overlord if the gods intervine

[Wraithfighter]

Whether or not Serini's actions are logical rather depends on your view of this question: Should Serini be assuming that she has all the details right?

Because, yes, based on what she assumes to be the facts, pretty much everything she's done is logical.

But the bolded part is the big problem. Her assumption that Xykon taking the gate is better than the gate being destroyed is dead wrong. That's her big failure here, assuming that she knows everything that's true and acting entirely upon that.

Normally, I wouldn't fault her for that, mind you. Characters shouldn't be expected to know everything, it's just impractical. The problem is the Sendings. She was being pestered by people who had more direct contact with Xykon and his lackeys than she did, who could confirm (or prove wrong) her assumptions about what will happen should Xykon take the gate.

She chose to ignore the Sendings, cutting herself off from critical information that she needed to know in order to make the correct decision.

That's why I'm on the "She's in the wrong" camp still. Her logic isn't bad exactly, the problem is that it's clouded by the arrogance that she knows everything there is to know about the situation. She doesn't even know what character is the biggest threat here, that's how far off base she is...

[brian 333]

And what if what we think we know ain't so?

There is ample foreshadowing that we, and the gods, do not have all the facts. Are we so certain that assumptions the author himself has cast doubt upon are more reliable than Serini's?

The one thing we can guess with a high degree of likelihood is that Roy and Xykon will battle for the fate of the world. Serini may help the Order to find a better path but she won't be able to stop them. So relax and enjoy the ride.

[RMS Oceanic]

Logic derived from flawed logic is interesting to see in the flesh.

[StragaSevera]

You know, it seems to me that people here are agreeing with the basic presumption that the world being destroyed is worse than the world being conquered by Xykon - always, without any considerations. The disagreements come from the conclusions from this presumptions.
And, I may say, this presumption is not obvious at all.

For example, what if Xykon, upon conquering the world, puts all people in the torture chambers for life, creates an army of golems fueled by the agony of this people, Warhammer-style, and uses this golems to kill/capture-for-tornment all sentinent beings on other planes - beings that would be spared by the destruction of the material world? (Seing that Hilgya plans to Plane Shift in case of world destruction, this seems to be the case).

I'm sure that if I made the argument about endless torment being worse than instant death - I think some people would disagree. But if we weigh torment plus death of greater amount of people versus just death for smaller amount of people - I think you can clearly say that the second outcome is a lesser evil.

And yes, this is just a possibility, not even a likely possibility, for what we know about Xykon. But this is A possibility - a realistic, if not probable one. So Serini should not blindly assume that stopping Xykon is less important than saving the world, even without additional information about Godsmoot.

[danielxcutter]

I mean if she didn't trust them and/or assumed they'd mess things up, she could have told them to meet her somewhere and then ambush them or something. Wouldn't have been that hard, really.

[RMS Oceanic]

While we're all waiting for Serini to learn of the Godsmoot and its implications, I actually think instead of going "huh, didn't realise that, okay let's do this", she may pivot to "controlled demolition by the gods is preferable to risking possible oblivion from the Snarl". And that might even be true from a dispassionate perspective. But I think the likely core of this conflict is emotional rather than logical. Serini's fear and despair of Xykon means she has an emotional need to not fight him, she's invested in that. And resolving that emotional foundation of the conflict feels more like how the comic would do it, like Elan's character development inside the Microcosm.

[danielxcutter]

I wonder if Belkar will have something to do with that? Belkar is a very strong contrast towards Serini; her primary motivation is honestly fear while despite Belkar's many flaws cowardice isn't one of them. And he's the one who relies less on some form of logic and goes on his emotions instead - which is basically how Serini functions.

[RMS Oceanic]

I wonder if Belkar will have something to do with that? Belkar is a very strong contrast towards Serini; her primary motivation is honestly fear while despite Belkar's many flaws cowardice isn't one of them. And he's the one who relies less on some form of logic and goes on his emotions instead - which is basically how Serini functions.

Would definitely be an interesting vector if I'm correct.

[StragaSevera]

I wonder if Belkar will have something to do with that? Belkar is a very strong contrast towards Serini; her primary motivation is honestly fear while despite Belkar's many flaws cowardice isn't one of them. And he's the one who relies less on some form of logic and goes on his emotions instead - which is basically how Serini functions.
It may be a foreshadowing that Belkar was hit by a fear ray then =-)

[CountDVB]

Can’t help but be reminded by Roy’s speech to Xykon here regarding the state of the world if Xykon wins: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html

[dancrilis]

But, well, she's also wrong, even in this case. If Redcloak seizes the gate, the outcome could be so, so much worse than the gate being destroyed. Imagine entire heavens of souls being devoured and destroyed...

The Dark One can only use the gate once - so he intends to use the threat of it to achieve his aims (per word of The Giant).


The main problem is that the gods are likely to destroy the world if Xykon/Redcloak get the gate, but she doesn't know that.


Are they?
That would mean that:
a) Hel becomes queen of the north.
b) That the starving to death Dark One has no reason not to try to attack the gods directly (leading potentially to another snarl).



I am presuming here that she knows Xykon's plan but is unaware of Redcloak's plan to essentially blackmail the gods, which would naturally lead said gods to destroying the world pre-emptively. Like they almost just did and may still decide to do.
The Gods are currently in a deadlocked vote, and destroying the world has consquences for them (Queen of the North, potential second snarl development).


And no, no one is going to be better off if Xykon is the one with control of the gate.
Xykon would be better off.


He will unleash the Snarl at completely random targets just cuz he's bored. The guy isn't a complete idiot but he's very blunt and has little to no patience for long-term strategy. Once upon a time he would've been content to unleash it just once or twice as a demonstration, but the dude's gone full undead madman since then.

The last time Xykon has killed anyone on panel he was in the throne room of Azure City - he has not been killing people for fun or boredom, even when he has complained about being bored he focused on torturing a paladin not leveling the surrounding nations.


It would be a slow, painful unmaking of the world at the hands of a mad lich, and unlike a normal tyrant, you can't simply wait for Xykon to die and hope his successor is less of a jerk.
This would be Roy's point that a world under Xykon would kill the planets soul (and even he acknowledged that some people would likely be fine) - Serini seems to regard that as the better option of the ones before her.
A question to Roy might be 'if the options are Xykon wins or you destroy the gate which do you choose' I wouldn't be at all surprised if Roy did in fact destroy the gate if those were the only options (last time it could be argued that he had more potential resourses at his disposal and he destroyed it anyway).



Yeah, they destroyed the previous gate, but there was another gate and they knew it. That's no longer the case. The circumstances have changed.
They had no idea what would happen last time and they knew it Roy mentioned 'I don't really know what is going to happen'.

We know that Loki mentioned a 'gate destroyed we wrap up the world' agreement after the vote on destroying the world was concluded - we (and Roy) have no idea of the southern gods might have a 'if that guy with the sword or any member of his party get within 100 meters of the last gate we wrap up the world' clause - the entire situation is full of uncertainties.



Regardless of what happens with the Gate and Xykon, the Dark One still exists, the other gods cannot interact with him without risking a second snarl - if his plan goes nowhere then even if the world is safe he could potentially show up to kick over some castles as he liked.

As such the safest plan is likely to keep the Dark One's plan moving forward without it ever reaching its goal - and Serini has done a decent job of that so far even if she doesn't know that is the job she is doing.

[hroþila]

Serini did nothing wrong

(But, like, unironically)

[SlashDash]

The only major fact that Serini is missing is, "the gods will probably destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate". And she probably doesn't even realize that's a possibility.
Nope, there's another HUGE fact that she is missing - Thor's plan.
Serini is unaware that there's another plan in motion that could remove the gate itself as a threat to anything and thus the world is safe.


Of course this isn't going to happen from our perspective cause it's a story and we know we're far from the end of it.

But from the character perspective, if they get to Redcloak and get him to co-operate one way or another, then perhaps he can run away from Xykon (Durkon and OChul already did it just fine), Serini can just walk him and Durkon to the gate in secret and voila - world is saved with no risk to the gate.

This of course is assuming they have a way of knowing they can trust Redcloak and as I said, it's obviously not going to happen now.

But it is another possible plan on the table.

There is much that Serini doesn't know.

[Liquor Box]

And those adventurers may know a lot less about the gate than Serini and the OotS and sincerely believe that destroying the gate would be the best way to stop Xykon.

Indeed. I think future adventurers liberating the gate from Xykon will actually be more likely to destroy the gate in the conflict. If so, letting removing the Order increases the chance of the Gate's destruction (even if you ignore the possibility of Team Evil accidently releasing the Snarl).


Therefore, A+B=C: Xykon is not a threat either to the existence of the world or to the gate itself. Both are required for him to gain the benefit of either.
Your A+B does not equal your C because might Xykon might destroy the world unintentionally. So he is a threat to the world.




Some other people said she wanted Xykon to take the Gate, but I asked for evidence of that weeks ago and no one provided anything.

Has anyone at all actually said she wants Xykon to take the gate. Some (like me) have said that she thinks that is what will happen (which she kind of confirms in this strip), so is planning for that eventuality. Others might have (correctly) said she prefers that outcome to what she sees as the other alternative.

But can you please point to where anyone has said that she wants Xykon to get the gate, as in sees it preferable to the gate remaining unmolested.


I don't think they're fanatics either. I'm just saying that Serini has cause to view them as such.

You consider Xykon to be an engine-destroying fire, but Serini views him more like someone who will use the engine's exhaust as a weapon. He wants to channel the engine, not destroy it. That's certainly what Xykon thinks the ritual will do, and the OOTS thought the same thing at the time until recently. (They didn't learn what the ritual actually does until there was only one gate left.) It really IS a valid perspective to say that they were destroying gates and risking the imminent destruction of the world, to prevent Xykon from ruling it.

Yes I understand what you are saying. I am saying that there's nothing Serini has said she knows about that would justify her seeing the Order as fanatics.

They weren't risking the imminent destruction of the world (save for the Godsmoot which none of them knew about). The world can survive with a gate remaining. They were removing one of the safety valves to stop an outcome that Shojo called "a new age of darkness", when other safety valves remained. That does not make them fanatics, and for Serini to conclude that they are is not reaosnable. It does not mean they are likely to intentionally destroy the last safety valve, and it would not be reasonable for Serini to conclude they would.

Simply, the last gate is not like the others.


Serini is one of the people who helped create the gate, so she probably knows how it works as well as anyone, and she obviously thinks it's plausible for someone to channel it as a weapon without it blowing up in their face.

I agree. Shojo said he thought so too. And this is presumably why Dorukon created the self destruct.

But just because it's plausible doesn't mean its a super high risk activity. Not a little risky like handling a gun. Risky as in 50/50 or worse. We know this because Reddy said so. But it should be obvious to Serini that messing with the most dangerous thing in the world when you don't understand it is dangerous.


I was referring to an an earlier post, but scrolling back, that post was actually made by Rynjin. I apologize for mis-attributing it to you:

Understood. No worries. It happens, I've done it before too.


No argument there. She admittedly has reason to think she has all the information she needs, thanks to some obviously intense scrying/spying/god-knows-what-she-used-to-get-so-much-intel, but she didn't even bother taking five minutes to say, "I should interrogate them just in case there's any other info they somehow stumbled over."


That in itself is a fatal mistake from her if it had turned out that her lack of knowledge of the Godsmoot caused disaster (likely if she had prevailed against the Order).

[Chaosity]

The more i think about it, the more i realise that from a logic point of view Serini is 100% right. It helps to realise that from what she knows the snarl doesn't just kill you. It completely unmakes you. In a world where people know they can have happy afterlives this is a very scary factor.

She is right that conflict brings risk to the destruction of the gate. Even if the order pinky promises they won't do it and she believes them they can't control Xykon. They can't guarenty that if Xykon feels like he's losing and in a final act of pettyness destroys the gate that they can stop him.

The godsmoot is a moot point even at this point. It's again a choice between world ending but everyone goes to the afterlife or world ending and countless cease to excist. It would only convince her more to not intervine with Xykon and let it happen

I see only 2 arguments that could lead to her cooperation.

The plan with the dark one that might stop the snarl once and for all. But that's a might and relies on collaboration with a enemy that doesn't want to collaborate

Or the world inside the gates as that suggest that the snarl might not unmake things.

The order is thinking with their heart instead of their head. They don't want to give up on their world. Which isn't a wrong thing. But from a pure logic standpoint Serini is right. With the information she has it's not worth the risk. It's barely worth it if you have all the information

[Liquor Box]

She is right that conflict brings risk to the destruction of the gate. Even if the order pinky promises they won't do it and she believes them they can't control Xykon. They can't guarenty that if Xykon feels like he's losing and in a final act of pettyness destroys the gate that they can stop him.

So your point is that there's a small chance the order will destroy the gate - she can't guarantee they wont. Let's assume that's true.

The problem with that is that if the Order doesn't intervene there's still a chance (I would say a much greater chance) the Snarl will be released. Either because Xykon messes up trying to use it as a weapon, or because the future adventurers who come to overthrow him (who wont know as much about the gate) will destroy it to keep it from him.



Why does everyone think the godsmoot will convince Serini?
If the gods destroy the world then everyone's soul will go to the afterlife. If the snarl gets loose it will unmake a lot of souls before the gods can destroy it.
The world being destroyed is still the better of the 2 options.
It would only convince her more that she is right. There won't even be a lich overlord if the gods intervine


While we're all waiting for Serini to learn of the Godsmoot and its implications, I actually think instead of going "huh, didn't realise that, okay let's do this", she may pivot to "controlled demolition by the gods is preferable to risking possible oblivion from the Snarl". And that might even be true from a dispassionate perspective. But I think the likely core of this conflict is emotional rather than logical. Serini's fear and despair of Xykon means she has an emotional need to not fight him, she's invested in that. And resolving that emotional foundation of the conflict feels more like how the comic would do it, like Elan's character development inside the Microcosm.


This is a good point though. They could tell her about the Godsmoot, and she might just reply "so what, better to go to the afterlife and give the gods a chance to make another world than to unmake everything." It would be in line with her pragmatic view about Xykon ruling.

[elros]

Roy and Serini are having the same argument that the forum has had for months. I wonder if the Giant added this comic to address the argument in their world as well.
I am curious how this argument is resolved, because the one on the forum was not.

[Peelee]

I mean if she didn't trust them and/or assumed they'd mess things up, she could have told them to meet her somewhere and then ambush them or something. Wouldn't have been that hard, really.

So your issue here is that she ambushed them without telling them to meet somewhere?

[hungrycrow]

Roy and Serini are having the same argument that the forum has had for months. I wonder if the Giant added this comic to address the argument in their world as well.
I am curious how this argument is resolved, because the one on the forum was not.

I don't think the Giant follows forum arguments that much, the arguments he addresses just happen to be obvious ones that need to be addressed for the story. Note that in our months of discussions there are probably a bunch of points that won't end up being relevant and will just be forgotten. Conversely the comic brings up a point I don't think was ever discussed: that Serini might have acted differently if there was another gate left. Although I think she might just be saying that because she likes the rhetorical flourish of turning Roy's argument against him.

It definitely will be interesting to see how the Giant resolves this.

[Wowlock]

Her logic makes sense without the full facts. We know the full facts, the Order knows the full facts so it doesn't make sense because of it.

[Windscion]

Y'all just don't give a flip about the dwarven souls being forfeit to Hel, then?
Because no one is mentioning this, and I think it should matter. Even Serini might take pause at that. (Altho she might also shrug and say "Stoopid gods. They really screwed the pooch. Again.")

[Fyraltari]

Her logic makes sense without the full facts. We know the full facts, the Order knows the full facts so it doesn't make sense because of it.

No we don't and no they don't. We have no idea what's up with the World Within the World.

Everybody's just fumbling around in the dark.

[Doug Lampert]

Excellent point.

IMHO, her big mistake was not responding to the Orders sendings sooner. If she had, she could have delivered the ultimatum, "If you destroy Girard's gate, I'll let Xykon have the last gate before letting you anywhere near it."

I know of no evidence that the order sent any Sendings to Serini prior to the destruction of Girard's gate.

[Liquor Box]

Conversely the comic brings up a point I don't think was ever discussed: that Serini might have acted differently if there was another gate left.

I did make the point that the final gate was different to earlier gates. I didn't apply it hypothetically to how Serini might have felt if this wasn't the final gate though.

[dancrilis]

I know of no evidence that the order sent any Sendings to Serini prior to the destruction of Girard's gate.

What about panel 17 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

[Psyren]

Her logic makes sense if there are truly only two options: "Try to stop Xykon alone" and "Try to stop the Order alone." The latter is the better choice of the two.

But there IS a third option. "Team up with the high-level group that is clearly against the guy who almost killed you, and has been trying to call you for your aid for weeks. Make sure they don't destroy the Gate personally."

That she doesn't even consider this as a viable option is why I refuse to respect her, on top of her crotchety attitude/temper (which even Sunny acknowledges.)


What about panel 17 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

Boom.

[Syncrogti]

Roy Greenhilt: a fictional two dimensional character with the ability to listen to facts objectively, and self evaluate his own motives and decisions. That makes him better than 90% of the people on social media.

I don't know Rich but I have hope that he is like Roy.

[Peelee]

Her logic makes sense if there are truly only two options: "Try to stop Xykon alone" and "Try to stop the Order alone." The latter is the better choice of the two.

But there IS a third option. "Team up with the high-level group that is clearly against the guy who almost killed you, and has been trying to call you for your aid for weeks. Make sure they don't destroy the Gate personally."

That she doesn't even consider this as a viable option is why I refuse to respect her, on top of her crotchety attitude/temper (which even Sunny acknowledges.)

How could she make sure they don't destroy the Gate personally without stopping them alone? If they are powerful enough to help her stop Xykon, they are also likely powerful enough to prevent her from stopping them.

"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is not always applicable.

[Psyren]

How could she make sure they don't destroy the Gate personally without stopping them alone? If they are powerful enough to help her stop Xykon, they are also likely powerful enough to prevent her from stopping them.

"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is not always applicable.

But "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" is.

[Emmit Svenson]

If I were Roy, I'd ask Serini what she would have done in his place: Let Xykon have the desert gate, or destroy it as Roy did?

If she says she would have destroyed it too, then point out she's got more in common with the OotS than she's admitted to so far.

If she says she would have let Xykon have it, point out this would have resulted in the gods destroying the world. Whoopsie!

[Psyren]

If she says she would have let Xykon have it, point out this would have resulted in the gods destroying the world. Whoopsie!

I'd just skip to this honestly. There's no need for hypotheticals - now that she's tied up and forced to listen, drive home the information she's missing and let's get this show on the road. And if she still refuses to listen, well, she's got plenty of knockout poison lying around so we can tuck grandma safely in bed while the adults sort out the plot.

[NoHaxJustPi]

What about panel 17 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

See also: panel 5, here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0747.html) showing that V did, in fact, attempt to contact Serini

[Shining Wrath]

Despite the lack of head bonking, I think actual progress is being made toward understanding each other. Talky-man Roy has a literally captive audience, and he's going to explain a few things to her. In detail.

[hungrycrow]

How could she make sure they don't destroy the Gate personally without stopping them alone? If they are powerful enough to help her stop Xykon, they are also likely powerful enough to prevent her from stopping them.

"the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is not always applicable.

Talk to them. Honestly give her perspective and hope they listen to reason. Or give them advice that subtly steers them away from the gate. A lot of ways to play it really. And if the conversation fails she can still fall back on an ambush. Way better than this situation, where she has to argue with a very annoyed Order while tied up, or even worse scenarios where they just kill her and Sunny.

Posters(you maybe? there's been too much discussion for me to keep track) suggested revealing herself would be too risky somehow, but so far the comic suggests she just doesn't respect them enough to bother talking.

[alceryes]

Was Durkon sworn to secrecy regarding the other, failed worlds and the God's willingness to destroy this world before the gate can be used for evil?

[Riftwolf]

I... don't feel this strip is doing what it's meant to. It's not showing Roy or Serinis arguments very well. Roy saying he'd destroy Girard's Gate again plays into Serinis "you can't flip the table when you start losing" argument from before, but she doesn't use it. Roy's argument that "of course we're not going to destroy this one because it's the last one" isn't particularly strong.
This strip feels like lead up to more important plot points being argued over (planet in the rift, TDOs plan), but we couldn't have them argue that stuff straight away, we couldn't have the same argument Serini had with O-Chul repeated, so we get this very wordy strip instead.

[Peelee]

But "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" is.

Eh, I'd rather not partner with Darth Vader to take down the emperor, if you catch my drift.

[Fyraltari]

Was Durkon sworn to secrecy regarding the other, failed worlds and the God's willingness to destroy this world before the gate can be used for evil?

No. Why would he be?

[Peelee]

Also I no longer think the "gods will destroy the world if the Gate is taken by Xykon" is the most convincing argument. I think "there have been billions of worlds, not just two, and another God exists that could help stop cycle forever and if we miss this chance it may never happen again" is. Durkon couldn't convince Redcloak, but maybe he can convince Serini.

[hungrycrow]

Also I no longer think the "gods will destroy the world if the Gate is taken by Xykon" is the most convincing argument. I think "there have been billions of worlds, not just two, and another God exists that could help stop cycle forever and if we miss this chance it may never happen again" is. Durkon couldn't convince Redcloak, but maybe he can convince Serini.

Her main complaint is that the Order aren't competent enough to beat Xykon, so I'm not sure dangling another impossible task would sway her.
Maybe suggesting a plan other than "kill the bad guys" would endear them to her though?

[Schroeswald]

My opinion is that Serini is wrong. Her course of action is incorrect and is less likely to lead to a good result than the Order’s. Even with the state of the world being as she thinks it is I think that the order is probably more correct than her. However her point of view is also a very valid and understandable position that can be reached through solid reasoning. However however I think she didn’t do that, she has an incredibly biased and emotional (if understandable) perspective, to change her mind you’re going to need to at least provide new information and probably also approach not at the rational big boy level but at the real human halfling/troll hybrid person emotional level.

[Psyren]

Eh, I'd rather not partner with Darth Vader to take down the emperor, if you catch my drift.

Yeah, imagine if Darth Vader had helped take down the Emperor, what a crazy idea :smallbiggrin:

[Schroeswald]

Yeah, imagine if Darth Vader had helped take down the Emperor, what a crazy idea :smallbiggrin:

What an epic plot twist that would be tbh, I’d love to see it.

[drazen]

If I were Roy, I'd ask Serini what she would have done in his place: Let Xykon have the desert gate, or destroy it as Roy did?

If she says she would have destroyed it too, then point out she's got more in common with the OotS than she's admitted to so far.

If she says she would have let Xykon have it, point out this would have resulted in the gods destroying the world. Whoopsie!

Would it? The vote was 9-8 to save the world without HPoH/unDurkon, who wouldn't have arrived had the Order packed it in. Then again, it'd be an entirely different vote on an entirely different topic, so maybe it would have gone differently.

[Peelee]

Yeah, imagine if Darth Vader had helped take down the Emperor, what a crazy idea :smallbiggrin:

If you're the one specific person in the universe it would work for under highly specific conditions, then sure!

Do you think it'd be a good idea for you, Psyren, to try that team up, if you were in the SW universe? Heck, you could even be a powerful Force user if you'd like. Totally optional, of course. Pick whatever power set you'd like that fits in the SW universe, except "being his literal child". Gonna roll the dice?

[Zarhan]

On the "What's going to convince Serini" I think none of the arguments about the situation (Gods will destroy world, there's been gazillion of them before, etc) will work. The key problem with Serini is that she thinks that members of the Order are bumbling fools who'll just mess things up.

I would speculate that the argument to win Serini over is to make her understand that, yes, *individual* members of the order are bumbling fools - and plenty of events validate that. V's going Darth V, Haley's cryptograms, Elan in general, Durkon's "duty first"-attitude, Belkar being, well, Belkar, and so on.

The big problem with Serini is that she's ever been a member of a group that more or less dissolved on it's own instead of the True Companions that the Order of Stick has been forged into. Order of Scribble was really a bunch of strangers that just happened to go into the same direction (with the exception of perhaps Dorukan and Lirian). Their entire gate-warning system was messed up: Having each individually guarding a gate, instead of setting up a warning system and being ready to pounce with full force on anyone threatening *any* gate.

So what needs to be said is that yeah, individually her perception of the Order is accurate (nonwithstanding that all of them have more or less become better people over time), but the sum is greater than it's parts. I wouldn't know who from the Order will make that argument...

[dancrilis]

If she says she would have let Xykon have it, point out this would have resulted in the gods destroying the world. Whoopsie!

The gods have to agree to destroy the world - they haven't.
The gods didn't destroy the world when Xykon was at Dorukan's gate - they also didn't meet to vote on it.

The gods don't know what the ritual does and some seemingly don't even believe that the Dark One exists.

There is no reason to assume that the gods are intending to destroy the world if Xykon gets it - the two things that caused them to have a vote was Roy breaking a gate and rifts appearing in the first place.

Edit:

If you're the one specific person in the universe it would work for under highly specific conditions, then sure!


Might have worked for Leia also.

[Psyren]

If you're the one specific person in the universe it would work for under highly specific conditions, then sure!

Do you think it'd be a good idea for you, Psyren, to try that team up, if you were in the SW universe? Heck, you could even be a powerful Force user if you'd like. Totally optional, of course. Pick whatever power set you'd like that fits in the SW universe, except "being his literal child". Gonna roll the dice?

What's my alternative? I certainly can't fight them both, and one is clearly less "pure evil" than the other. Heck, how is that different than trying to turn Redcloak against Xykon? I would absolutely try.

[danielxcutter]

Also are you seriously comparing the Order to Darth friggin' Vader?

[Petrocorus]

You know, it seems to me that people here are agreeing with the basic presumption that the world being destroyed is worse than the world being conquered by Xykon - always, without any considerations.
There's no agreement on this basic presumption. Several people pointed out that the world being conquered by Xykon could end up with the world being destroyed any way, and after a lot more of suffering.


I mean if she didn't trust them and/or assumed they'd mess things up, she could have told them to meet her somewhere and then ambush them or something. Wouldn't have been that hard, really.
Or just tried to dissuade them.
Or at least use it to gather intel, on them notably.



A question to Roy might be 'if the options are Xykon wins or you destroy the gate which do you choose' I wouldn't be at all surprised if Roy did in fact destroy the gate if those were the only options (last time it could be argued that he had more potential resourses at his disposal and he destroyed it anyway).
But Roy has the benefit of knowing enough to assume that if he destroys the last gate, the Gods will cash in save the souls of mortals and then destroy the world before the Snarl undo everything and every one.

[alceryes]

What an epic plot twist that would be tbh, I’d love to see it.

Interesting.

How about the climax being that Redcloak becomes the true top villian in the end and The Order ends up 'teaming up' with Xykon to ultimately defeat him.
Xykon agreeing because he flipped a coin in his head or because Redcloak messed with his vibe or destroyed his phylactery or something like that.

Could you imagine the party banter WITH Xykon?? Gold I tell you, absolute GOLD!

[vwyx]

You guys are looking at it wrong. Serini is completely without a reasonable argument here.

Think about it like this. A train is rushing through an empty countryside, when suddenly motorcycle terrorists pull up alongside it to plant a bomb and blow up all the passengers on the train, as motorcycle terrorists are wont to do. Unfortunately for them, James Bond is also onboard the train.

The terrorists jump onto the caboose and start to set us up the bomb. James Bond is pretty good at killing terrorists, but he doesn't want to risk the passengers, so he evacuates them to the next car, steals the detonator, detaches the caboose from the rest of the train, and blows it up himself once it's at a safe distance so the terrorists can't use the bomb.

But the terrorists have more than one bomb, so they catch up to the train and get on the next car. Bond once again evacuates the civilians, detaches the car, and blows it up. This continues until finally the passengers are on the last car left. Bond knows it's still dangerous - he's arguably made it worse by packing everyone together, but then he had no way to solve the problem without risking everyone getting blown up as it was. The bombs are that strong, after all. Still, any idiot would be able to see that this time, he must fight instead of blowing up the car, since that's the only one left.

Then the train conductor shoots him in the back of the head. As Bond lays dying, the last thing he hears is "Ha! I've seen what you were doing! You would have detached this car, too!"

If you're only focused on actions and stupid enough to ignore any kind of intent, then Serini might have had a point... except that the Order has been trying to contact her constantly to explain what's happening and why. So, no, she's wrong and an idiot.


Would it? The vote was 9-8 to save the world without HPoH/unDurkon, who wouldn't have arrived had the Order packed it in. Then again, it'd be an entirely different vote on an entirely different topic, so maybe it would have gone differently.

It was 9-8 to let their worshippers try to save the world first. Without the Order and people like them, the "save" faction wouldn't have an argument.

[Petrocorus]

I know of no evidence that the order sent any Sendings to Serini prior to the destruction of Girard's gate.
I think the point made there was that Serini knew when Lirian's gate was destroyed and when Dorukan's gate was destroyed. She could have started intervening from there instead of waiting for Team Evil and the OotS to wind up on her doorstep.



So what needs to be said is that yeah, individually her perception of the Order is accurate (nonwithstanding that all of them have more or less become better people over time), but the sum is greater than it's parts. I wouldn't know who from the Order will make that argument...
Roy would, and he already did. During the fight against the giants IIRC.

[hungrycrow]

I think the point made there was that Serini knew when Lirian's gate was destroyed and when Dorukan's gate was destroyed. She could have started intervening from there instead of waiting for Team Evil and the OotS to wind up on her doorstep.


Serini was attacked sometime after Lirian's gate was destroyed. How long did she spend recovering? She might not have been able to intervene until much later.

[bunsen_h]

Of course this isn't going to happen from our perspective cause it's a story and we know we're far from the end of it.

Unless the Giant does a Peter Jackson: wraps up the main story in, say, another 50 pages, with lots of Chekhov's guns left unfired. And then does 300 pages of farewells.

[Peelee]

What's my alternative? I certainly can't fight them both, and one is clearly less "pure evil" than the other. Heck, how is that different than trying to turn Redcloak against Xykon? I would absolutely try.
Redcloak was willing to discuss and seriously considered Durkon's proposal. Something we never saw Vader do. So I would suggest that is significantly and substantially different right off the bat.

Also are you seriously comparing the Order to Darth friggin' Vader?
Yes, in the sense of "as far as Serini knows they are a danger to the universe and has no reason to trust them at the moment". This has largely been the foundation for the vast majority of my disagreements with you, as you have consistently failed to provide any rebuttal to this and, to the best of my knowledge, seem to believe she should trust them implicitly because they are the main characters, despite that their actions, when seen from the outside without detailed and specific knowledge or talking to them at length, seem to present a great danger to the world at large.

This should not be a difficult concept.

[Kantaki]

I think "there have been countless worlds before this one and it might be the best shot at stopping the Snarl for good (and evil. and neutral.) in literally forever*" might be the best shot at convincing Serini.
She might still decide the Order's detrimental to the plan.


Do you think it'd be a good idea for you, Psyren, to try that team up, if you were in the SW universe? Heck, you could even be a powerful Force user if you'd like. Totally optional, of course. Pick whatever power set you'd like that fits in the SW universe, except "being his literal child". Gonna roll the dice?

I want to say Padme, but we know how that went...:smallamused:


Also are you seriously comparing the Order to Darth friggin' Vader?

Well, no. Vader is competent. :smalltongue:

*By convincing Redcloak- and by extension the Dark One - to help.

[Psyren]

Redcloak was willing to discuss and seriously considered Durkon's proposal. Something we never saw Vader do. So I would suggest that is significantly and substantially different right off the bat.

Vader absolutely was willing to discuss overthrowing the Emperor, he said so himself. Sure he had self-serving goals in mind, but he'd be a lot easier to handle once it was just him instead of both of them.



Yes, in the sense of "as far as Serini knows they are a danger to the universe and has no reason to trust them at the moment". This has largely been the foundation for the vast majority of my disagreements with you, as you have consistently failed to provide any rebuttal to this and, to the best of my knowledge, seem to believe she should trust them implicitly because they are the main characters, despite that their actions, when seen from the outside without detailed and specific knowledge or talking to them at length, seem to present a great danger to the world at large.

This should not be a difficult concept.

She might question their ability to win (which, you know, glass houses lady) but she clearly doesn't think they're outright evil or malicious the way Vader is. Just careless. It's not a great analogy.

More importantly, thinking they are careless does not preclude summarily refusing to even communicate with them. Especially BEFORE the destruction of Girard's Gate, which she might have been able to prevent had she not been sending them to voicemail every time.

[faustin]

Interesting.

How about the climax being that Redcloak becomes the true top villian in the end and The Order ends up 'teaming up' with Xykon to ultimately defeat him.
Xykon agreeing because he flipped a coin in his head or because Redcloak messed with his vibe or destroyed his phylactery or something like that.

Could you imagine the party banter WITH Xykon?? Gold I tell you, absolute GOLD!

Redcloak cannot hope to defeat Xykon in any way except maybe using the phylactery to destroy him. And that assuming he found a new trick since the end of Start of Darkness.
If he manages to come up on top, it means Xykon is no longer.

Following the Darth Vader argument, does Elan still keep a potion of glibness to convince Redcloak he is his son?

[Peelee]

Vader absolutely was willing to discuss overthrowing the Emperor, he said so himself.
Again, to a highly specific person. https://i.imgflip.com/5ep2on.png
ETA: Forgot to mention, but hypothetical Vader cuts you down. At least you helped serve his goals before you died, though. Got that going for you.


She might question their ability to win (which, you know, glass houses lady) but she clearly doesn't think they're outright evil or malicious the way Vader is. Just careless. It's not a great analogy.

More importantly, thinking they are careless does not preclude summarily refusing to even communicate with them. Especially BEFORE the destruction of Girard's Gate, which she might have been able to prevent had she not been sending them to voicemail every time.
A.) Both Gates were destroyed intentionally. One with idiocy, one with absolute intent. I woudln't call them "careless".
2.) Were right back to "they deserved to have her talk to them". You think she should have talked to them, for whatever reasons. She did not. She is, notably, not you, and is not under any sort of obligation to talk to them. Of course she should have, but she didn't want to because she clearly didn't trust them. Whether you think they're trustworthy or not is irrelevant. She did not.

[Psyren]

Again, to a highly specific person. https://i.imgflip.com/5ep2on.png
ETA: Forgot to mention, but hypothetical Vader cuts you down. At least you helped serve his goals before you died, though. Got that going for you.

If I'm a random person trying to stop the Emperor + Vader together I'm likely getting cut down anyway. Again, what do I have to lose? You still haven't answered that.

Especially given that, to continue with the poor analogy, the Emperor already wrecked me once completely on his own. And this version of "Vader" is both not evil and is overtly against him. I might have a slim chance with "Vader", but my chances are zero without him.



A.) Both Gates were destroyed intentionally. One with idiocy, one with absolute intent. I woudln't call them "careless".

"Misguided" then. Still not evil.


2.) Were right back to "they deserved to have her talk to them". You think she should have talked to them, for whatever reasons. She did not. She is, notably, not you, and is not under any sort of obligation to talk to them. Of course she should have, but she didn't want to because she clearly didn't trust them. Whether you think they're trustworthy or not is irrelevant. She did not.

So she's either signing herself up for a lifetime career of stopping other adventurers from fighting Xykon, or else gambling that whatever he has planned for the gate beats annihilation when she doesn't even have a clue what that might be. At the very least talking to them might help her learn his goals. I guess that makes too much sense for Serini though.

[Peelee]

If I'm a random person trying to stop the Emperor + Vader together I'm likely getting cut down anyway. Again, what do I have to lose? You still haven't answered that.
Your life and yourngoal, since as far as you know anyone powerful enough to ally with can overpower you as well.

Especially given that, to continue with the poor analogy, the Emperor already wrecked me once completely on his own. And this version of "Vader" is both not evil and is overtly against him. I might have a slim chance with "Vader", but my chances are zero without him.
See above. Let's pretend you win, and you live, and Vader blows up whatever you were trying to protect from the Emperor anyway. Hooray, you've accomplished absolutely nothing as far as your actual goal goes. This is somehow preferable, though?


"Misguided" then. Still not evil.
I'm sure the destroyed world will feel better that it wasn't destroyed out of evil but out of misguidedness.


So she's either signing herself up for a lifetime career of stopping other adventurers from fighting Xykon, or else gambling that whatever he has planned for the gate beats annihilation when she doesn't even have a clue what that might be. At the very least talking to them might help her learn his goals. I guess that makes too much sense for Serini though.
As I said, yet again, we're at the "she was obligated to talk to them" stage. Any reason she had for not talking to them is stupid because she should have talked to them. We should disregard that she has no reason to suspect they have secret hidden knowledge of world-changing importance, she should have assumed they have Intel on the other guys that, hey, we actually even know that they don't! And she should have suspected this because reasons, yeah, that's it! The important thing to know here is if anyone involved in any capacity in a thing tries to call you about the thing you sholluld always pick up, even if you have no reason to suspect it would benefit you and even if they appear to be opposed to your goal, because hey, who knows! After all, that old legal adage of "always listen to your opponent, trust us, they may know something helpful" exists for a reason.

[gatemansgc]

"So, have you ever heard of the Godsmoot Serini? Hold up, this will take a minute..."

was hoping they were gonna go in that direction.


.

editing instead of making a new post to be in accordance to the rules. love the new dragon avatar!

[masamune1]

Her logic makes sense if there are truly only two options: "Try to stop Xykon alone" and "Try to stop the Order alone." The latter is the better choice of the two.

But there IS a third option. "Team up with the high-level group that is clearly against the guy who almost killed you, and has been trying to call you for your aid for weeks. Make sure they don't destroy the Gate personally."

That she doesn't even consider this as a viable option is why I refuse to respect her, on top of her crotchety attitude/temper (which even Sunny acknowledges.)


She HAS considered this option- she just thinks that Xykon is SO POWERFUL that teaming up with the Order won't make a blind bit of difference and that Xykon will just kill them all and take the Gate anyway, and possibly that any promises Roy makes to not destroy the Gate might get thrown out the window if he freaks out when he realises that he's losing and he and his friends are all going to die impotently.

She thinks it is a foregone conclusion that Xykon will take the Gate unless someone destroys it, which is not an option for her.

Possibly, she also fears that even if Xykon IS somehow beatable, that only means that Xykon might destroy the Gate himself out of spite, hence the idea that it's the conflict that endangers the Gate, but she doesn't dwell on that since she doesn't see how any of them can hope to win against Xykon anyway.

In the end, even if / when she agrees to help the OotS defeat Xykon (probably after learning that the gods are going to end the world if he wins), she'll probably still say it's a suicide mission and she's only agreeing to help because they're all going to be annihilated either way.

[Peelee]

editing instead of making a new post to be in accordance to the rules. love the new dragon avatar!

Thanks! It came out exactly as I was hoping, but then, it would have been a bit hard not to, given what I asked for. Cuthalion is pretty awesome for doing it for me.

[masamune1]

You know, it occurs to me that if Serini DOES learn about the Godsmoot, she might decide that it's better to let the gods destroy the world regardless and start over, since she had no idea that a do-over was an option.

Even Hel's Wager might not dissuade her, since a world ruled by an evil tyrannical goddess isn't likely to be much worse than a world ruled by a Chaotic Evil lich, especially if Hel only really gets the North.

I could even see her agreeing to work with the OotS after all only to betray them and LET Xykon win...though, I don't actually think that's where the story is going.

[hungrycrow]

Your life and yourngoal, since as far as you know anyone powerful enough to ally with can overpower you as well.

See above. Let's pretend you win, and you live, and Vader blows up whatever you were trying to protect from the Emperor anyway. Hooray, you've accomplished absolutely nothing as far as your actual goal goes. This is somehow preferable, though?
Yeah, this analogy is getting way off track. in this scenario the Vader/you team up defeating the Emperor would mean team Order/Serini beating Xykon, after which the Order would have no reason to destroy the gate.


I'm sure the destroyed world will feel better that it wasn't destroyed out of evil but out of misguidedness. Emphasizing "careless" and "misguided" instead of evil is pointing out that the Order is capable of being reasoned with and won't just attack her midnegotiations for fun.


As I said, yet again, we're at the "she was obligated to talk to them" stage. Any reason she had for not talking to them is stupid because she should have talked to them. We should disregard that she has no reason to suspect they have secret hidden knowledge of world-changing importance, she should have assumed they have Intel on the other guys that, hey, we actually even know that they don't! And she should have suspected this because reasons, yeah, that's it! The important thing to know here is if anyone involved in any capacity in a thing tries to call you about the thing you sholluld always pick up, even if you have no reason to suspect it would benefit you and even if they appear to be opposed to your goal, because hey, who knows! After all, that old legal adage of "always listen to your opponent, trust us, they may know something helpful" exists for a reason.
Talking is preferable to violence if you can expect it not to blow up in your face. So far as the comic has shown, her reason for not doing so is that she thinks they're all big doodoo heads. So yeah, her reason is stupid.

Being sure that the other party has no knowledge you don't is startlingly arrogant. They couldn't have learned anything new the multiple times they were near the rifts? They couldn't have talked to outsiders that knew more? They couldn't have gleaned anything about Xykon and his plans in their several encounters with him?

And if she still ended the talks thinking of the Order as enemies, she would also have more information on what the Order is planning and what their capabilities are. The Order would have just given that away, for free.

Edit: actually I'm gonna pile on what gatemansgc said; great avatar!

[dancrilis]

Being sure that the other party has no knowledge you don't is startlingly arrogant. They couldn't have learned anything new the multiple times they were near the rifts? They couldn't have talked to outsiders that knew more? They couldn't have gleaned anything about Xykon and his plans in their several encounters with him?

Roy's plan was to wait inside a doorway, then say hello, then wait for a response, then try to hit his enemy with a sword.
When this plan failed his plan was to expose a highly successful gate protection to his enemy as he jumped out to hit him with a sword.

She might very well know the above - meaning that she knows that Roy will weaken her gate's protections on what she has good reason to believe is at best a very long shot.

[Petrocorus]

https://i.imgflip.com/5ep2on.png
Where is this from exactly?


We should disregard that she has no reason to suspect they have secret hidden knowledge of world-changing importance, she should have assumed they have Intel on the other guys that, hey, we actually even know that they don't! And she should have suspected this because reasons, yeah, that's it!
They have been fighting against Xykon for about a year now (though i'm a bit fuzzy on the exact in-universe chronology) and they have succeeded in impeding him from seizing control of two gates, granted destroying them in the process (and the first one was a mishap and happened after having defeated Xykon), which is still a better achievement than Dorukan and Lirian.
There are already some reasons to assume they have some intel and some capabilities, even some intel she doesn't have.

The mere fact they prevailed against her should by now tell her she has underestimated them and that she's perfectly able to wrongly evaluate a situation.

[bunsen_h]

"So, have you ever heard of the Godsmoot Serini? Hold up, this will take a minute..."

I'm looking forward to seeing how Rich elides this. I think it's likely to involve Elan telling the story, something like how Minrah (and Belkar) were brought up to speed in page 1188 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1188.html).

[Thermophille]

I'd just like to point out with regard to Serini's "Even together we can't beat Xykon"... She's right.

Say, for example, that Sunny uses his Antimagic Cone on Redcloak and Xykon. They kill Redcloak in the first round of combat, Xykon uses Hellball to oneshot Sunny (epic magic works in antimagic; at least somewhat), and the Order and Serini manage to kill Xykon while only getting half their members killed.

Congrats, Xykon is alive and well two days later, just royally pissed off. He shows up before they're able to resurrect everyone, and kills everyone that's left. They can't get to Xykon's phylactery because it's in an astral fortress. This is the core problem with fighting liches, and how terrifying this makes them is glossed over in most campaigns I've seen them in.

Of course, his Phylactery isn't in his Astral fortress, but Redcloak is the only character who knows this.

[gatemansgc]

Thanks! It came out exactly as I was hoping, but then, it would have been a bit hard not to, given what I asked for. Cuthalion is pretty awesome for doing it for me.

it just screams "i am a mod dragon, hear me roar!"

[hungrycrow]

I'd just like to point out with regard to Serini's "Even together we can't beat Xykon"... She's right.

Say, for example, that Sunny uses his Antimagic Cone on Redcloak and Xykon. They kill Redcloak in the first round of combat, Xykon uses Hellball to oneshot Sunny (epic magic works in antimagic; at least somewhat), and the Order and Serini manage to kill Xykon while only getting half their members killed.

Congrats, Xykon is alive and well two days later, just royally pissed off. He shows up before they're able to resurrect everyone, and kills everyone that's left. They can't get to Xykon's phylactery because it's in an astral fortress. This is the core problem with fighting liches, and how terrifying this makes them is glossed over in most campaigns I've seen them in.

Of course, his Phylactery isn't in his Astral fortress, but Redcloak is the only character who knows this.

What is "Hellball"? I'm not sure if Xykon knows any epic magic other than Superb Dispelling.

The Order doesn't know that Redcloak pulled a switcheroo, but they also don't know Xykon was planning on hiding it in an Astral fortress. They might think it's still on Redcloak's person, where it actually is.

That said, Roy planning on winging it with the phylactery is a legitimate concern. I'd have a bit more respect for Serini if she brought that up instead of more insults.

[Thermophille]

What is "Hellball"? I'm not sure if Xykon knows any epic magic other than Superb Dispelling.

The Order doesn't know that Redcloak pulled a switcheroo, but they also don't know Xykon was planning on hiding it in an Astral fortress. They might think it's still on Redcloak's person, where it actually is.

That said, Roy planning on winging it with the phylactery is a legitimate concern. I'd have a bit more respect for Serini if she brought that up instead of more insults.

O-Chull knows he knows Epic Mage Armor, and I'd be legitimately surprised if friggin' Xykon doesn't have at least one blasting Epic spell.

And I'm pretty sure the Order would guess Xykon would move it, especially since Redcloak's holy symbol is visually different now.

[dancrilis]

What is "Hellball"? I'm not sure if Xykon knows any epic magic other than Superb Dispelling.


Cloister (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) and reportedly Epic Mage Armour (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).

[hungrycrow]

O-Chull knows he knows Epic Mage Armor, and I'd be legitimately surprised if friggin' Xykon doesn't have at least one blasting Epic spell.

And I'm pretty sure the Order would guess Xykon would move it, especially since Redcloak's holy symbol is visually different now.

I'm guessing metamagicked Meteor Swarm and Energy Drain have sufficed for him so far. Apparently Durkon and Minrah are the first enemies to try warding themselves against his attacks, so he doesn't really need much variety in blasting.

Not sure where they think the phylactery is since they don't know anything about Redcloak and Xykon's relationship. But yeah, not planning for it is pretty bad strategically.

Cloister (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) and reportedly Epic Mage Armour (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html).
Does he need the headband to cast Cloister?

[Thermophille]

I'm guessing metamagicked Meteor Swarm and Energy Drain have sufficed for him so far. Apparently Durkon and Minrah are the first enemies to try warding themselves against his attacks, so he doesn't really need much variety in blasting.

Xykon may act stupid, but he isn't. I'd bet money he has contingincies against antimagic, just as he has contingencies against wards (namely, Superb Dispelling). When a blasting Epic Spell fills that role as well as his brand, he'd have to be an idiot not to go for it.

[Psyren]

Your life and yourngoal, since as far as you know anyone powerful enough to ally with can overpower you as well.

See above. Let's pretend you win, and you live, and Vader blows up whatever you were trying to protect from the Emperor anyway. Hooray, you've accomplished absolutely nothing as far as your actual goal goes. This is somehow preferable, though?

I'm sure the destroyed world will feel better that it wasn't destroyed out of evil but out of misguidedness.

As I said, yet again, we're at the "she was obligated to talk to them" stage. Any reason she had for not talking to them is stupid because she should have talked to them. We should disregard that she has no reason to suspect they have secret hidden knowledge of world-changing importance, she should have assumed they have Intel on the other guys that, hey, we actually even know that they don't! And she should have suspected this because reasons, yeah, that's it! The important thing to know here is if anyone involved in any capacity in a thing tries to call you about the thing you sholluld always pick up, even if you have no reason to suspect it would benefit you and even if they appear to be opposed to your goal, because hey, who knows! After all, that old legal adage of "always listen to your opponent, trust us, they may know something helpful" exists for a reason.


Yeah, this analogy is getting way off track. in this scenario the Vader/you team up defeating the Emperor would mean team Order/Serini beating Xykon, after which the Order would have no reason to destroy the gate.

Emphasizing "careless" and "misguided" instead of evil is pointing out that the Order is capable of being reasoned with and won't just attack her midnegotiations for fun.


Talking is preferable to violence if you can expect it not to blow up in your face. So far as the comic has shown, her reason for not doing so is that she thinks they're all big doodoo heads. So yeah, her reason is stupid.

Being sure that the other party has no knowledge you don't is startlingly arrogant. They couldn't have learned anything new the multiple times they were near the rifts? They couldn't have talked to outsiders that knew more? They couldn't have gleaned anything about Xykon and his plans in their several encounters with him?

And if she still ended the talks thinking of the Order as enemies, she would also have more information on what the Order is planning and what their capabilities are. The Order would have just given that away, for free.


Hungrycrow largely covered it but I'll add:

1) You're asking me, if I beat the Emperor (Xykon), what stops Vader (The Order) from blowing up the gate anyway? ...Why on earth would they, if Xykon is dead? :smallconfused:
This is why I think that analogy is weak and is hurting the point. The Order are not Vader. They are not even close to being Vader. If anyone is Vader it's Redcloak, and we're not suggesting Serini teams up with him.

2) They do have intel on the bad guys, quite apart from their knowledge of the Godsmoot. They know Xykon's magical strength (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) better than anyone right now (and Redcloak's, since he's a cleric). They know The Plan. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) They know what Redcloak wants to achieve with The Plan. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html) Even without any kind of information from the gods, all of that is valuable intel that you would think a self-appointed guardian of the world would care about learning, instead of flushing down the commode with amnesia juice. And appointing herself that guardian does carry with it an obligation to learn what she can. She has no way of knowing that Xykon and Redcloak's "ritual" won't simply delete the Gate completely on its own - which it turns out it will, if indirectly.

[Peelee]

Yeah, this analogy is getting way off track. in this scenario the Vader/you team up defeating the Emperor would mean team Order/Serini beating Xykon, after which the Order would have no reason to destroy the gate.
I agree wholeheartedly, but they also had no reason to destroy Dorukan's Gate, and yet. I realize that that was not intentional, and heck, even Serini may possibly know that was not intentional (I'm unsure), but that doesn't make it safe. If someone drove Alice's car into a wall to see what would happen and then drove Bob's car into a wall specifically because they knew what would happen, I'd be pretty reticent to let them have the keys to my car regardless of how much they promised they wouldn't drive it into a wall. You may know for a fact they won't, everyone watching may know for a fact they won't, but I don't know that for a fact. Also, it's my damn car, so it's more real for me than it is for outsiders watching it to boot.

Edit: actually I'm gonna pile on what gatemansgc said; great avatar!
https://c.tenor.com/TkJCnycNo7MAAAAC/futurama-zoidberg.gif

[Metastachydium]

If someone drove Alice's car into a wall to see what would happen and then drove Bob's car into a wall specifically because they knew what would happen, I'd be pretty reticent to let them have the keys to my car regardless of how much they promised they wouldn't drive it into a wall. You may know for a fact they won't, everyone watching may know for a fact they won't, but I don't know that for a fact. Also, it's my damn car, so it's more real for me than it is for outsiders watching it to boot.

(Disclaimer: I didn't actually read the reat of the thread, but) this particular analogy gets real funny real fast if we take into account that they don't want the keys, explicitly don't want to go anywhere near your car and they are basically just asking you to stop brandishing that shotgun at them for trying to murder people who (as far as you know) want to steal your car and hit a great many other people with it potentially, um, destroying the souls of the victims in the process or whatever.

[pyrefiend]

Everyone, I have incredible news. We don't have to rely on analogies anymore! To determine whether or not Serini is making the right decision, we can put our trust in cold, hard decision theory (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y6EfhNrbMXqHSxKIzH8PpybBD1jSAvxtaStoF7JdH5k/edit?usp=sharing).

[Peelee]

(Disclaimer: I didn't actually read the reat of the thread, but) this particular analogy gets real funny real fast if we take into account that they don't want the keys, explicitly don't want to go anywhere near your car and they are basically just asking you to stop brandishing that shotgun at them for trying to murder people who (as far as you know) want to steal your car and hit a great many other people with it potentially, um, destroying the souls of the victims in the process or whatever.

I agree! But when they're sending me texts about cars and saying "I think this is the garage where the car is" and their friends have said "welp let's try to find the car" it sounds might dang suspicious.

Keep in mind, my argument has always been "Serini is wrong". I've never argued that she is right. All of my arguments have been against "she is wrong because she is stupid/blockheaded/crazy/needlessly obstinate/just wants to stop the order/an annoying twit/whatever else people say". She is wrong but she has a halfway decent reason to be wrong and tossing aside her arguments like they're nothing is not an effective rebuttal (and, I have to note with some degree of satisfaction, is not the route that Roy is taking to start with. He's acknowledging that she has some valid points and is addressing those points).

[Thermophille]

Everyone, I have incredible news. We don't have to rely on analogies anymore! To determine whether or not Serini is making the right decision, we can put our trust in cold, hard decision theory (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y6EfhNrbMXqHSxKIzH8PpybBD1jSAvxtaStoF7JdH5k/edit?usp=sharing).

Both utility values are listed as "Utility of Gate Being Destroyed", when the second one should be listed as "Utility of Xykon seizing the gate". Also, it's not immediately obvious that the Odds of Gate Being Defended are output rather than input values.

Other than that, it's pretty good. Thanks.

[pyrefiend]

Both utility values are listed as "Utility of Gate Being Destroyed", when the second one should be listed as "Utility of Xykon seizing the gate". Also, it's not immediately obvious that the Odds of Gate Being Defended are output rather than input values.

Other than that, it's pretty good. Thanks.

Fixed, thanks!

[Rrmcklin]

I'm just curious how people who think that Serini is right - not that she has a fairly reasonable point to make but is missing important things/is being needlessly hostile/irrational about going about things - actually expect this to be concluded and whether or not they expect it to be satisfying.

[Peelee]

I'm just curious how people who think that Serini is right - not that she has a fairly reasonable point to make but is missing important things/is being needlessly hostile/irrational about going about things - actually expect this to be concluded and whether or not they expect it to be satisfying.

Frankly, I don't recall anyone thinking Serini is right, but I may well have missed some things.

[Rrmcklin]

Frankly, I don't recall anyone thinking Serini is right, but I may well have missed some things.

There have definitely been people here (and elsewhere) saying she's definitively right. Obviously the conversation is more nuanced than that (People who think she's wrong and have taken a way more uncharitable take that as warranted, middle grounds, etc.) but I'm wondering about those specific people who just think "Serini is on the mark about everything" is true.

[Metastachydium]

I agree! But when they're sending me texts about cars and saying "I think this is the garage where the car is" and their friends have said "welp let's try to find the car" it sounds might dang suspicious.

Granted,


Keep in mind, my argument has always been "Serini is wrong". I've never argued that she is right.

and I know that. I just got a good chuckle out of the (nearly inevitable) silliness of thinking analogies all the way through and wanted to share the (probably not even that funny) source of this fleeting mirth.


All of my arguments have been against "she is wrong because she is stupid/blockheaded/crazy/needlessly obstinate/just wants to stop the order/an annoying twit/whatever else people say". She is wrong but she has a halfway decent reason to be wrong and tossing aside her arguments like they're nothing is not an effective rebuttal (and, I have to note with some degree of satisfaction, is not the route that Roy is taking to start with. He's acknowledging that she has some valid points and is addressing those points).

Emphasis on halfway, but sure. (Of course, she is obstinate, partrly motivated by an inferiority complex, probably a little bit crazy (and definitely a little bit zany) and I can see why she can go on other people's nerves, but what's hers is hers).

[hungrycrow]

Keep in mind, my argument has always been "Serini is wrong". I've never argued that she is right. All of my arguments have been against "she is wrong because she is stupid/blockheaded/crazy/needlessly obstinate/just wants to stop the order/an annoying twit/whatever else people say". She is wrong but she has a halfway decent reason to be wrong and tossing aside her arguments like they're nothing is not an effective rebuttal (and, I have to note with some degree of satisfaction, is not the route that Roy is taking to start with. He's acknowledging that she has some valid points and is addressing those points).

I don't know, it doesn't seem like he's acknowledging her points at all. He took responsibility for the destruction of Girard's Gate only to point out that it's totally irrelevant. For all her other points he, along with Lien, Elan, and Haley, are just looking at her like she's "bonkers".

[Peelee]

Granted,



and I know that. I just got a good chuckle out of the (nearly inevitable) silliness of thinking analogies all the way through and wanted to share the (probably not even that funny) source of this fleeting mirth.



Emphasis on halfway, but sure. (Of course, she is obstinate, partrly motivated by an inferiority complex, probably a little bit crazy (and definitely a little bit zany) and I can see why she can go on other people's nerves, but what's hers is hers).

I agree wholeheartedly on everything you said there. :smallwink:

[Fyraltari]

Everyone, I have incredible news. We don't have to rely on analogies anymore! To determine whether or not Serini is making the right decision, we can put our trust in cold, hard decision theory (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y6EfhNrbMXqHSxKIzH8PpybBD1jSAvxtaStoF7JdH5k/edit?usp=sharing).

I don't think that's what people mean when they say "logic gate".

[pyrefiend]

I'm just curious how people who think that Serini is right - not that she has a fairly reasonable point to make but is missing important things/is being needlessly hostile/irrational about going about things - actually expect this to be concluded and whether or not they expect it to be satisfying.

My guess is that she's about to start saying and doing things that are unequivocally unreasonable. (Why? Because soon the Order will tell her the deal with the Gods and Gates, and I doubt that will change her mind.) Those who thought she was being reasonable before will say, "Okay, she was being reasonable before but she isn't anymore." Those who thought she was not being reasonable before will say "She has been unreasonable all along." And so we will go on arguing forever.

[Psyren]

I don't know, it doesn't seem like he's acknowledging her points at all. He took responsibility for the destruction of Girard's Gate only to point out that it's totally irrelevant. For all her other points he, along with Lien, Elan, and Haley, are just looking at her like she's "bonkers".

This. Roy took responsibility for destroying Girard's Gate (the "objectively true statement.") However, doing so does not make him a "bumbling fool" (her words), and it certainly doesn't justify not answering the phone both before and after he was forced to do so.

On top of which, she has yet again here stated that protecting the Gate is her duty. Yet does not consider even for a moment that that duty might intersect with desperately needing intel on the group most keen on locating said Gate.

[Peelee]

This. Roy took responsibility for destroying Girard's Gate (the "objectively true statement.") However, doing so does not make him a "bumbling fool" (her words), and it certainly doesn't justify not answering the phone both before and after he was forced to do so.

Bolding mine. She does not need to justify that. She has no obligation to pick up the phone for them, and saying she does is nothing but protagonist-centered thinking.

[Psyren]

Bolding mine. She does not need to justify that. She has no obligation to pick up the phone for them, and saying she does is nothing but protagonist-centered thinking.

I still disagree. She appointed herself protector of the Gate. That gives her an obligation to learn more about the group(s) actively threatening it.

[Peelee]

I still disagree. She appointed herself protector of the Gate. That gives her an obligation to learn more about the group(s) actively threatening it.

No, that gives her an obligation to protect the Gate. Learning about groups threatening it helpful to that but not mandatory, and the source being either the group you want her to learn about or an entirely separate group that is also threatening the Gates is highlh likely to be suspect. And that's in a vacuum, you're conveniently not addressing how that would give away things she would rather such groups not know (eg that she is alive and active in its defenses).

Yet again, just because she chose a strategy that you would not does not mean there were no benefits to that strategy, it just means that you disagree with them. You keep insisting that she effectively be servile to the main characters, albeit framed as logical conclusions. I do not accept your assertions and I fundamentally disagree on the grounds that, as I understand things, you seem to be basing them off.

[StragaSevera]

how that would give away things she would rather such groups not know (eg that she is alive and active in its defenses).
Yes, because, obviously, an Epic rogue has no way of using proxies or other mundane and/or magical stuff to not relay this information, if she is so afraid of it being uncovered.


No, that gives her an obligation to protect the Gate. Learning about groups threatening it helpful to that but not mandatory
Are you sure the Order is incompetent ones, and not Serini?

[Peelee]

Are you sure the Order is incompetent ones, and not Serini?

I have been rather silent on that point, notably. :smallamused:

[Luccan]

Regardless of whether she's logical or "right", I find Serini very annoying and hope this is leading towards this subplot being wrapped up soon. At the moment the only apparent stakes are so high we know that they can't fail (at worst they'll "fail") and Serini has not proven to be a compelling enough character to make this diversion particularly engaging.

[Psyren]

No, that gives her an obligation to protect the Gate. Learning about groups threatening it helpful to that but not mandatory, and the source being either the group you want her to learn about or an entirely separate group that is also threatening the Gates is highlh likely to be suspect. And that's in a vacuum, you're conveniently not addressing how that would give away things she would rather such groups not know (eg that she is alive and active in its defenses).

I do understand that she felt she'd have lost the element of surprise in revealing herself, and I posit that she'd have had an even better chance of catching them off guard if she'd led them to believe she was a willing ally. Especially since she could have taken the opportunity to learn a lot about them. And if they wanted info about her or Kraagor's Gate in return, she could have simply lied. (Imagine that, an epic rogue lying.)


Yet again, just because she chose a strategy that you would not does not mean there were no benefits to that strategy, it just means that you disagree with them. You keep insisting that she effectively be servile to the main characters, albeit framed as logical conclusions. I do not accept your assertions and I fundamentally disagree on the grounds that, as I understand things, you seem to be basing them off.

A strategy can have benefits and still be a bad strategy.


Regardless of whether she's logical or "right", I find Serini very annoying and hope this is leading towards this subplot being wrapped up soon. At the moment the only apparent stakes are so high we know that they can't fail (at worst they'll "fail") and Serini has not proven to be a compelling enough character to make this diversion particularly engaging.

This too, but the verbal takedowns from V and Haley (and the uncharacteristic restraint from Belkar) have at least been entertaining in their own right, for me anyway.

[Aquillion]

I do understand that she felt she'd have lost the element of surprise in revealing herself, and I posit that she'd have had an even better chance of catching them off guard if she'd led them to believe she was a willing ally. Especially since she could have taken the opportunity to learn a lot about them. And if they wanted info about her or Kraagor's Gate in return, she could have simply lied. (Imagine that, an epic rogue lying.)
She can't do both those things, though. As soon as she makes contact they're going to ask for info on the other gates, and (assuming she doesn't want to give to them) then any response is going to tip her hand in terms of making her priorities clear. After that they won't trust her anymore and she's lost the advantage of surprise without really gaining anything.

[KorvinStarmast]

In fact, some of us have been saying for months that Serini's actions make logical sense from her perspective.

Where ya sit determines what ya see. That's an adage old people use, so Serini probably buys into it.

Unless the Giant does a Peter Jackson: wraps up the main story in, say, another 50 pages, with lots of Chekhov's guns left unfired. And then does 300 pages of farewells. Already happening.

[Liquor Box]

Roy's plan was to wait inside a doorway, then say hello, then wait for a response, then try to hit his enemy with a sword.
When this plan failed his plan was to expose a highly successful gate protection to his enemy as he jumped out to hit him with a sword.

She might very well know the above - meaning that she knows that Roy will weaken her gate's protections on what she has good reason to believe is at best a very long shot.

You call it highly successful, but it's held for a few days only, and Serini indicates yet again in this strip that she doesn't expect to be able to stop Xykon.

But what basis does Serini have to think that Roy's plan of attacking Xykon would fail or was a long shot. What is the 'good reason' you refer to?


tossing aside her arguments like they're nothing

Is there anyone at all who has actually done that. As oppose to understanding her arguments and then pointing out why they are flawed (same as Roy is now doing).


Bolding mine. She does not need to justify that. She has no obligation to pick up the phone for them, and saying she does is nothing but protagonist-centered thinking.

of course. Nobody here has any obligation to do anything. But it would have been a good idea in the context of her goal of defending the gates, and so it was a mistake for her not to do it.

[JT]

I still disagree. She appointed herself protector of the Gate. That gives her an obligation to learn more about the group(s) actively threatening it.

"Picking up the phone" may give more information to the (potential) threat, than she gains in information. It's not a one-way conduit.

[gustmes]

I can understand why Serini thought Xykon was unbeatable before. But now with the help of 2 paladins, a high-level party including 2 clerics, and lets not forget a Beholder that can perma anti-magic field against a sorcerer and a cleric, will she still think they can't beat him?

It makes me think there is more to her motivation than that (specially given her "fun while it lasted" dialogue at the end of last book)...

[Larsaan]

Bolding mine. She does not need to justify that. She has no obligation to pick up the phone for them, and saying she does is nothing but protagonist-centered thinking.

You keep framing this as some kind of courtesy issue, but no one is saying she should have responded to the Sendings for the sake of the Order; she should have done it as a matter of self-interest. Even if she'd still view them as a danger that needs to be neutralized, you always want to keep the bad guys talking, because you never know what they might let slip. You can call it "protagonist-centered thinking", but at most it's PC thinking - in the sense that RPGs (both digital and traditional) teach you early and often that you always want to hear what people have to say, especially if they're trying to get your attention.

Ironically, people would probably have been more willing to give her a pass on this if she was a more stereotypically hard-headed class like paladin or barbarian, but pumping people for information and manipulating them into advantageous positions is supposed to be something rogues excel at (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html).

[Vikenlugaid]

Brilliant comic, brilliant conversation, just brilliant writing.

Roy and Durkon will obviously need to talk about the godsmoot and all the top secret facts that they know to comvince her, because without them they can't, mostly because without those facts Serini is totally right, this is the last gate, the risk is too high.

[Thermophille]

I can understand why Serini thought Xykon was unbeatable before. But now with the help of 2 paladins, a high-level party including 2 clerics, and lets not forget a Beholder that can perma anti-magic field against a sorcerer and a cleric, will she still think they can't beat him?

It makes me think there is more to her motivation than that (specially given her "fun while it lasted" dialogue at the end of last book)...

Even discounting rules (that Rich may not know or use) that Epic magic works in antimagic fields (albeit sporadically), as far as the Order and Serini know, after Darth V, Xykon hid his Phylactery somewhere highly implausible to find.

Sure, Redcloak means extra healing and action economy for Xykon's team, but Xykon can kill every member of the order with or without his help. He'll come back again and again if he has to, and kill every one of them before they can find his Phylactery.

Of course, the audience knows that Redcloak still has the phylactery, but nobody else knows he managed to pull a fast on on Xykon like that.

[pyrefiend]

"Picking up the phone" may give more information to the (potential) threat, than she gains in information. It's not a one-way conduit.

The only information she'd give away is that she's alive. She could lie about everything else. And she's good at lying!

"I retired years ago. Some nice archmages figured out how to move the Gate somewhere safe; I don't know where. So shove off."

It seems like she has a lot to gain and little to lose by responding. So I do think she was making a mistake.

[brian 333]

You keep framing this as some kind of courtesy issue, but no one is saying she should have responded to the Sendings for the sake of the Order; she should have done it as a matter of self-interest. Even if she'd still view them as a danger that needs to be neutralized, you always want to keep the bad guys talking, because you never know what they might let slip. You can call it "protagonist-centered thinking", but at most it's PC thinking - in the sense that RPGs (both digital and traditional) teach you early and often that you always want to hear what people have to say, especially if they're trying to get your attention.

Ironically, people would probably have been more willing to give her a pass on this if she was a more stereotypically hard-headed class like paladin or barbarian, but pumping people for information and manipulating them into advantageous positions is supposed to be something rogues excel at (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html).

The Order was talking. In fact, they wouldn't give the old girl a break. And there's every sign that she listened to every sending.

In Intel 101 you learn to listen to the enemy's chatter without interfering. If they don't know you are listening, they might let something slip on accident, and if they are trying to provoke a response from the listener they may say more than they intended just to make you do something to give them an indication they are listening.

Letting the Order know she was alive and listening would have been neither necessary nor very smart. She would have given up far more than she could have gained, from her PoV.

I don't believe Serini is 'right' or that her attempted interference will amount to much. I also don't believe her cooperation is required. I don't think her info will be worth much, unless she knows where the blueprints for making new gates are stashed.

But I love the character. Far from being annoyed, I find her charming and witty. I really cannot understand the angst over this temporary hiccup. She's not even as serious a roadblock as Crystal-Golem, (whom I also loved, for what it's worth.)

There have been many annoying characters, (make your own list,) but I don't recall any who received as much angst from the forums as Serini. Even Miko had a fan club! I seem to be the only Serini fan.

I can only presume that a good many forum-posters had pre-conceived ideas about how a meeting with Serini should play out, and the comic stomped on those summer dreams with hobnailed hobgoblin boots.

[hungrycrow]

The Order was talking. In fact, they wouldn't give the old girl a break. And there's every sign that she listened to every sending.

In Intel 101 you learn to listen to the enemy's chatter without interfering. If they don't know you are listening, they might let something slip on accident, and if they are trying to provoke a response from the listener they may say more than they intended just to make you do something to give them an indication they are listening.
According to the montage every sending was a variation of "this is the Order, please call back when you get this". She could only get useful information if she answered.


Letting the Order know she was alive and listening would have been neither necessary nor very smart. She would have given up far more than she could have gained, from her PoV.
If her reason for not answering the sendings was just to avoid giving herself away, then she would have been open to talking when her ambush failed and the Order still wanted to talk. I don't think she's going to reveal any tactical reason for refusing the sendings at this point; she already explained it: she doesn't like the Order and doesn't think they're worth talking to.


I don't believe Serini is 'right' or that her attempted interference will amount to much. I also don't believe her cooperation is required. I don't think her info will be worth much, unless she knows where the blueprints for making new gates are stashed.

But I love the character. Far from being annoyed, I find her charming and witty. I really cannot understand the angst over this temporary hiccup. She's not even as serious a roadblock as Crystal-Golem, (whom I also loved, for what it's worth.)

There have been many annoying characters, (make your own list,) but I don't recall any who received as much angst from the forums as Serini. Even Miko had a fan club! I seem to be the only Serini fan.

I can only presume that a good many forum-posters had pre-conceived ideas about how a meeting with Serini should play out, and the comic stomped on those summer dreams with hobnailed hobgoblin boots.
This whole ambush thing did burn a few spells and resources which I imagine the Order won't replenish. But overall I don't really hate Serini, she's fine as a roadblock character. I'm mostly bothered by people trying to make excuses for why her mistakes aren't actually mistakes and her flaws aren't actually flaws.

Ultimately I don't think she's going to end up being the grouchy voice of reason that slaps sense into the heroes; the Order already doesn't want to do the thing she's worried about. What she actually is is the naysayer that tells the heroes they can't do the impossible thing right before they go off to do the impossible thing.

[Liquor Box]

Even discounting rules (that Rich may not know or use) that Epic magic works in antimagic fields (albeit sporadically), as far as the Order and Serini know, after Darth V, Xykon hid his Phylactery somewhere highly implausible to find.

Sure, Redcloak means extra healing and action economy for Xykon's team, but Xykon can kill every member of the order with or without his help. He'll come back again and again if he has to, and kill every one of them before they can find his Phylactery.

Of course, the audience knows that Redcloak still has the phylactery, but nobody else knows he managed to pull a fast on on Xykon like that.

Wouldn't the Order simply be able to use divination magic (like locate object) to find the phylactary (or even ask the Oracle)? I don't think it's that big of a factor.

[danielxcutter]

The Oracle maybe, but Xykon's layered the phylactery in so many abjurations he doesn't even remember what half of them do and has to have the goblins search for it by hand once it falls into the sewer.

[hungrycrow]

Wouldn't the Order simply be able to use divination magic (like locate object) to find the phylactary (or even ask the Oracle)? I don't think it's that big of a factor.

It's warded against divination and Xykon told V and Ochul about it. Also divination wouldn't work if the phylactery was on another plane.

[danielxcutter]

Doesn't either Metafactulty or Hypercognition get past even those? Though they're extremely high-level Seer Psion-only powers.

[Riftwolf]

Wouldn't the Order simply be able to use divination magic (like locate object) to find the phylactary (or even ask the Oracle)? I don't think it's that big of a factor.

Remember what Xykon said right after the phylactery was lost in Azure City? It had a lot of protective spells attached to it, so many that even he'd forgotten what most of them do. Divination blockers are the reason he, an epic lich, can't find the phylactery quickly and so had the goblins search by hand, which took (weeks? months?).
The Oracle might be an answer if it wasn't for the fact the Order haven't exactly done him any favours. He might be out again like he was when Xykon visited. During that period. When Xykon couldn't use magic to find his phylactery.

[hungrycrow]

Doesn't either Metafactulty or Hypercognition get past even those? Though they're extremely high-level Seer Psion-only powers.

Metafaculty only tells you about creatures you've met, not objects. Hypercognition might have helped Xykon figure out where the phylactery fell in the sewers, but I don't think it would have enough information to find it on the endless Astral Plane. That'd be up to a DM though.

Edit: now that I think about it, they could just target Xykon after destroying him instead of the phylactery. He wouldn't have protections against divination spells while regenerating. Of course I'm not sure the Order know how that works.

[danielxcutter]

He respawns next to the phylactery, not where he was destroyed.

[brian 333]

According to the montage every sending was a variation of "this is the Order, please call back when you get this". She could only get useful information if she answered.


If her reason for not answering the sendings was just to avoid giving herself away, then she would have been open to talking when her ambush failed and the Order still wanted to talk. I don't think she's going to reveal any tactical reason for refusing the sendings at this point; she already explained it: she doesn't like the Order and doesn't think they're worth talking to.


This whole ambush thing did burn a few spells and resources which I imagine the Order won't replenish. But overall I don't really hate Serini, she's fine as a roadblock character. I'm mostly bothered by people trying to make excuses for why her mistakes aren't actually mistakes and her flaws aren't actually flaws.

Ultimately I don't think she's going to end up being the grouchy voice of reason that slaps sense into the heroes; the Order already doesn't want to do the thing she's worried about. What she actually is is the naysayer that tells the heroes they can't do the impossible thing right before they go off to do the impossible thing.

So you let them talk. We're talking about a span of weeks, not even a month. It's not like Serini ignored them for years.

I don't disagree with your points. But they are only one set of possibilities on a spectrum of possibilities. I'll wait until the author reveals his ultimate answer to the questions before I get mad about it.

And I still do not understand the source of the angst around Serini. Every argument seems to boil down to, "Serini would be okay if she did this thing I have been waiting years for her to do, rather than what she actually did."

[Thermophille]

Edit: now that I think about it, they could just target Xykon after destroying him instead of the phylactery. He wouldn't have protections against divination spells while regenerating. Of course I'm not sure the Order know how that works.

He'd still be on another plane, inside a fortress warded by Cloister. The Order isn't finding him.

[Kantaki]

He'd still be on another plane, inside a fortress warded by Cloister. The Order isn't finding him.

:smallconfused:
But the Phylactery isn't inside Xykon's Astral Tomb-Fortress of Doom.
Redcloak swapped it for a fake.

[danielxcutter]

The Order doesn’t know that though.

[Liquor Box]

The Order doesn’t know that though.

The Order (or Serini) don't know that it should be hidden in a hard to penetrate fortress either. Serini probably doesn't even know that he has a phylactery (requires knowledge religion). Noone in the Order did, until they found out the hard way.

[hungrycrow]

The Order (or Serini) don't know that it should be hidden in a hard to penetrate fortress either. Serini probably doesn't even know that he has a phylactery (requires knowledge religion). Noone in the Order did, until they found out the hard way.

The Order could guess the phylactery would be somewhere cloistered. Who knows if Serini is aware Xykon can do that.

[Kantaki]

The Order could guess the phylactery would be somewhere cloistered. Who knows if Serini is aware Xykon can do that.

Sure, but Roy would probably tell the casters to try anyway, on the off-chance Xykon didn't set something up. Worst case it fails and they know he's somewhere shielded.

Also, I think Reddie might've some reaction to his hand being shown like this.
"Xykon respawns next to me (instead of inside his tomb-thingy) cause some adventurers killed him" is probably not very high on his list of prefered scenarios.
Ideally it'd be the push he needs to work with Durkon.

[Liquor Box]

The Order could guess the phylactery would be somewhere cloistered. Who knows if Serini is aware Xykon can do that.

Maybe, but not certainly.

Remember this is a world where the Order didn't know Phylacterys existed or Liches could refenerate, Lirian used poison on an undead and because of a lack of ranks in knowledge religion Durkon couldn't even tell what deity hilgya worshipped. So knowledge of the esoteric part of the world is limited. Characters also frequently act is a seriously suboptimal way in terms of protecting themselves. So I don't think it an obvious guess that Xykon's phylactery is well protected.

I mean, even Xykon made very few efforts to protect it until after Redcloak lost it in the sewer.

[hungrycrow]

Maybe, but not certainly.

Remember this is a world where the Order didn't know Phylacterys existed or Liches could refenerate, Lirian used poison on an undead and because of a lack of ranks in knowledge religion Durkon couldn't even tell what deity hilgya worshipped. So knowledge of the esoteric part of the world is limited. Characters also frequently act is a seriously suboptimal way in terms of protecting themselves. So I don't think it an obvious guess that Xykon's phylactery is well protected.

I mean, even Xykon made very few efforts to protect it until after Redcloak lost it in the sewer.

Yeah it's a guess, but the point is the Order isn't sure how to find the phylactery afterwards, and that's a legitimate criticism of their plan to attack now.

From the Order's perspective, it seems like Elan's logic has rubbed off on Roy and he's basing his plan on the idea that Xykon losing and then coming back is too dramatically unsatisfying to happen.

[KorvinStarmast]

Brilliant comic, brilliant conversation, just brilliant writing. You forgot the blue text.

The only information she'd give away is that she's alive. She could lie about everything else. And she's good at lying!

"I retired years ago. Some nice archmages figured out how to move the Gate somewhere safe; I don't know where. So shove off."

It seems like she has a lot to gain and little to lose by responding. So I do think she was making a mistake. That's something she could have done but didn't, partly because that isn't the story Rich wants to tell. More importantly, she's no longer a main character in the story being a core point here - she was a main character in the story of the Order of the Scribble which was (1) written crayon. She is now a source of conflict within this arc of the plot.

[Liquor Box]

Yeah it's a guess, but the point is the Order isn't sure how to find the phylactery afterwards, and that's a legitimate criticism of their plan to attack now.

Maybe. I don;t think it would be unreasonable for them to assume it is not well hidden because (I think) the last information that had was that it was around Redcloak's neck. If they were trying to cover off all possible contingencies they probably should have accounted for the possibility Xykon had hidden it better afterward. But there are lots of more obvious obstacles they face in overcoming Xykon than the phylactery - he's a bit of a beast.


From the Order's perspective, it seems like Elan's logic has rubbed off on Roy and he's basing his plan on the idea that Xykon losing and then coming back is too dramatically unsatisfying to happen.

I don't see anything to suggest that at all. At worst, they haven't thought of it. At best, they have thought it through an concluded are odds are that Redcloak still has it, or simply concluded that they have to take the risk of whether they'll be able to find it.

[Thermophille]

I don't see anything to suggest that at all. At worst, they haven't thought of it. At best, they have thought it through an concluded are odds are that Redcloak still has it, or simply concluded that they have to take the risk of whether they'll be able to find it.

Honestly, this by itself warrants Serini's criticism of their ability to defeat Xykon for good in my mind.

Serini's information is good enough that there's no way she doesn't know about phylacteries.

[Peelee]

The only information she'd give away is that she's alive. She could lie about everything else. And she's good at lying!

"I retired years ago. Some nice archmages figured out how to move the Gate somewhere safe; I don't know where. So shove off."

It seems like she has a lot to gain and little to lose by responding. So I do think she was making a mistake.

At which point the Order would have nothing else to go on so why not go to the original coordinates and investigate to see if either they could discern where it was moved or see if it was a lie?

And now Serini has given away information for absolutely no benefit. She gains nothing and loses something. That would be a terrible idea.

[Psyren]

She can't do both those things, though. As soon as she makes contact they're going to ask for info on the other gates, and (assuming she doesn't want to give to them) then any response is going to tip her hand in terms of making her priorities clear. After that they won't trust her anymore and she's lost the advantage of surprise without really gaining anything.

"Other gates?" There's literally one left :smallconfused:
As for not wanting to give them information on it - again, not really seeing why an epic rogue can't simply lie (or lie by omission) for any details she wants kept under wraps. We know you can do both through a Sending. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1110.html)


The only information she'd give away is that she's alive. She could lie about everything else. And she's good at lying!

"I retired years ago. Some nice archmages figured out how to move the Gate somewhere safe; I don't know where. So shove off."

It seems like she has a lot to gain and little to lose by responding. So I do think she was making a mistake.

Exactly, though a far more effective lie would be something that includes a grain of truth. "That mean old lich ambushed me, left me nearly for dead and took my diary; I can't defend the gate anymore, please come help brave adventurers! How many did you say were in your group again? Yeah that's perfect; meet me at these coordinates in a cave that conveniently fits entirely within Sunny's AMF cone, and whatever you do don't drink anything that will improve your saves vs. poison. Teehee, forget that last part."

[Peelee]

"Other gates?" There's literally one left :smallconfused:
As for not wanting to give them information on it - again, not really seeing why an epic rogue can't simply lie (or lie by omission) for any details she wants kept under wraps. We know you can do both through a Sending. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1110.html)

She did. She lied by omission about her life/welfare/status by not responding. She just didn't lie in the way you think she should have.

[Psyren]

She did. She lied by omission about her life/welfare/status by not responding. She just didn't lie in the way you think she should have.

Right, because it caused her to get no information about the Order or their capabilities, leading directly to her loss to them. (In addition to learning nothing about Xykon.)

I'm not saying she's behaving illogically; I'm saying she's incompetent at her self-appointed job.

[Petrocorus]

I wouldn't be surprise if the OotS did some researches about liches and phylacteries when they were in Azure City.



Also, I think Reddie might've some reaction to his hand being shown like this.
"Xykon respawns next to me (instead of inside his tomb-thingy) cause some adventurers killed him" is probably not very high on his list of prefered scenarios.
Ideally it'd be the push he needs to work with Durkon.
I concur.
If somehow Xykon is "killed" and Redcloak survives, that would still be endgame for RC. He knows full well that upon discovering that he's not regenerating in his fortress, Xykon will immediately decide to kill RC and put the Mantle on some lower level goblin.

[PontificatusRex]

I wouldn't be surprise if the OotS did some researches about liches and phylacteries when they were in Azure City.



It's been established multiple times that the Order knows they have to get the phylactathingie to kill Xykon permanently.



If somehow Xykon is "killed" and Redcloak survives, that would still be endgame for RC. He knows full well that upon discovering that he's not regenerating in his fortress, Xykon will immediately decide to kill RC and put the Mantle on some lower level goblin.

Xykon needs significant time to regenerate. I think it's safe to assume that if Redcloak felt really threatened by Xykon he wouldn't wait around to destroy it.

[danielxcutter]

You know, the Order has no idea about Xykon trying to make a fortress for his phylactery or Redcloak swapping it for a fake, but effectively events have unfolded as to make that irrelevant.

[Petrocorus]

It's been established multiple times that the Order knows they have to get the phylactathingie to kill Xykon permanently.

I meant they probably research how it works and how long it take to a lich to regenerate.



Xykon needs significant time to regenerate. I think it's safe to assume that if Redcloak felt really threatened by Xykon he wouldn't wait around to destroy it.
Indeed.
RC probably has some contingencies for the case, at the very least to give him more time.
He probably have planned to use a Word of Recall and to personally destroy the phylactery while Xykon is weaken. Or given orders for the phylactery to be destroyed if Xykon start regenerating around it.
But that's still endgame for him, because the Plan needs a high level arcane spellcaster. Not to mention the emotional issues given what happened in SoD.
And if he fails, then he will be hunted down by one of the worst creature in the world.

Do we actually know where he has hidden the phylactery?

[Peelee]

Right, because it caused her to get no information about the Order or their capabilities

It caused her to get no information about the Order directly from the Order. She put Roy down immediately, despite him clearly being a heavily armored fighter with seemingly no ranged weapon, and then focused on Haley, wearing leather armor, instead of going directly for the obvious wizard full bore. She clearly has information on the Order already.

There is no way of knowing if she would get better intelligence directly from them (which may be suspect regardless from her point of view) and we know for 100% certainty she would have given up information she clearly wanted to keep hidden. You think it's worth risking definite loss for possible gain. She didn't. It's that simple.

[Riftwolf]

You know, the Order has no idea about Xykon trying to make a fortress for his phylactery or Redcloak swapping it for a fake, but effectively events have unfolded as to make that irrelevant.

I think it'll be relevant to how Xykon acts in the final fight.
Xykon: (having been dropped to 10% health) huh you crazy kids might actually stop me here. Too bad I can just come back in an impregnable hidden fortress and start again in a few weeks. You win this story arc Ray Blueshirt, see you in the sequel!
Redcloak: Ah yeah about that...

[danielxcutter]

I think it'll be relevant to how Xykon acts in the final fight.
Xykon: (having been dropped to 10% health) huh you crazy kids might actually stop me here. Too bad I can just come back in an impregnable hidden fortress and start again in a few weeks. You win this story arc Ray Blueshirt, see you in the sequel!
Redcloak: Ah yeah about that...

Redcloak is smart enough to not say that while Xykon's capable of blasting him.

[Peelee]

Redcloak is smart enough to not say that while Xykon's capable of blasting him.

Agreed. Xykon may gloat about that (though I doubt it), but Reddie would certainly keep his mouth shut.

[Psyren]

It caused her to get no information about the Order directly from the Order. She put Roy down immediately, despite him clearly being a heavily armored fighter with seemingly no ranged weapon, and then focused on Haley, wearing leather armor, instead of going directly for the obvious wizard full bore. She clearly has information on the Order already.

...Why yes, she wasted her surprise round targeting the two worst targets in the room - the melee guy who could neither have stopped her barrage nor reversed its effects anyway, and the fellow rogue who can dodge all her attacks even in pitch darkness.

You're pointing out her incredibly poor tactics during the fight as an indication that she already had good intel on the Order? That's an.... uh, interesting approach :smalltongue:


There is no way of knowing if she would get better intelligence directly from them (which may be suspect regardless from her point of view) and we know for 100% certainty she would have given up information she clearly wanted to keep hidden. You think it's worth risking definite loss for possible gain. She didn't. It's that simple.

I'm saying she was wrong to prioritize keeping that information (that she's alive) hidden, over what she could have gained by fooling them. Hell, she wouldn't even have to claim to be at the North Pole at all, it's not like a Rogue is the "sit in a stronghold" type.

[Peelee]

...Why yes, she wasted her surprise round targeting the two worst targets in the room - the melee guy who could neither have stopped her barrage nor reversed its effects anyway, and the fellow rogue who can dodge all her attacks even in pitch darkness.

You're pointing out her incredibly poor tactics during the fight as an indication that she already had good intel on the Order? That's an.... uh, interesting approach :smalltongue:

She took down the leader, who has been consistently shown to hold the group together and devise tactical responses on the spot, and focused on the second in command immediately afterwards, while the casters were incapacitated well enough to suit her purposes.

Redcloak did the same thing - directed the sand golem to start with Roy. Interesting, that.

I feel like if you disregard all concern for tactics, the commenting on her tactics is an odd choice. But hey, you do you.

[Larsaan]

She took down the leader, who has been consistently shown to hold the group together and devise tactical responses on the spot, and focused on the second in command immediately afterwards, while the casters were incapacitated well enough to suit her purposes.

Except she didn't know Roy was the leader. She assumed Haley was.

[Psyren]

She took down the leader, who has been consistently shown to hold the group together and devise tactical responses on the spot, and focused on the second in command immediately afterwards, while the casters were incapacitated well enough to suit her purposes.

Redcloak did the same thing - directed the sand golem to start with Roy. Interesting, that.

I feel like if you disregard all concern for tactics, the commenting on her tactics is an odd choice. But hey, you do you.

Redcloak started with the one he recognized. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) I think you're reading too much into his targeting choice there, it was driven as much by irritation as anything else. (And tellingly, was also poor tactics at the end of the day, to send your melee bruiser after their melee bruiser using an easy-to-fool identifier.)

And none of that has anything to do with Serini not taking out, say, the clerics first. The ones who can actually deal with poison and Sunny's effects should any of them escape the AMF (or it fails.)

[Mike Havran]

Good, seems that they finally come close to a sensible agreement.

:roy: Look, we do not actually care about the gate itself. We want to destroy the lich and capture the goblin to take him away to another rift to seal it. We need not to be anywhere near the Gate for that to happen. The previous cases were pretty much bad luck.
https://dantas.com/giantitp/serini_1229_th.png Fine. We set up an ambush outside the maze door, after the lich and his group clears their final fake dungeon of the day and are tapped out. Let us hope you kids can make it.
:roy: Alright.

[dancrilis]

You call it highly successful, but it's held for a few days only, and Serini indicates yet again in this strip that she doesn't expect to be able to stop Xykon.

It not only has done its job but it has not given any hint that it even exists - it is working perfectly against Xykon and Redcloak (it is of course not perfectly successful as it didn't work against Haley).



But what basis does Serini have to think that Roy's plan of attacking Xykon would fail or was a long shot. What is the 'good reason' you refer to?

Attacking a higher level party then yours while they are all together and have any of there buffs on from previous combats is not what I would call a good plan, meaning that their is good reason to suspect that it would fail.


At which point the Order would have nothing else to go on so why not go to the original coordinates and investigate to see if either they could discern where it was moved or see if it was a lie?
I think it is even worse - Xykon would still be in the north and Roy would still be coming to try and destroy him, but now Roy (who presumedly Serini accepts is not breaking gates for fun) would not have to worry about collateral damage destroying the gate in any battle plan he came up with.


Xykon may gloat about that (though I doubt it)
He has previously boasted about coming back in a similiar situation (panel 1 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)).


Except she didn't know Roy was the leader. She assumed Haley was.
No reason to think that - she did call Haley the leader after Roy was taken out which a) she is and b) she was acting like it (i.e taking charge of the situation).
But she also clearly knows who Roy is given how she referred to him in 1253.


Good, seems that they finally come close to a sensible agreement.

:roy: Look, we do not actually care about the gate itself. We want to destroy the lich and capture the goblin to take him away to another rift to seal it. We need not to be anywhere near the Gate for that to happen. The previous cases were pretty much bad luck.
https://dantas.com/giantitp/serini_1229_th.png Fine. We set up an ambush outside the maze door, after the lich and his group clears their final fake dungeon of the day and are tapped out. Let us hope you kids can make it.
:roy: Alright.

Possibly but that runs the risk of one of the order captured and then could talk about the teleport trap and also reveal that Serini is alive which might have Xykon move from looking for the Gate to looking for her (which might be easier) - now if the Order agree to have their minds wiped that would likely remove those concerns, but I don't think they will.

[pyrefiend]

There is no way of knowing if she would get better intelligence directly from them (which may be suspect regardless from her point of view) and we know for 100% certainty she would have given up information she clearly wanted to keep hidden. You think it's worth risking definite loss for possible gain. She didn't. It's that simple.

I agree with this completely. But it's often a good idea to risk definite loss for possible gain. From the mere fact that she'd be risking definite loss for possible gain, it doesn't follow that she's making a bad decision. We do that every time we fill out a job application, or play a game of chance. If the possible gain is a lot more significant than the definite loss, then it's a good idea to take the chance.

And in this case, I think it's pretty clear that the possible gain is a lot more significant than the definite loss.

The loss is giving the Order the information that Serini is alive. But knowing that she's alive doesn't mean knowing that she's at the Gate, or anything else about the Gate's defenses.

On the other hand, Serini stands to gain significant information about the Order. Who they are, why they're doing what they're doing, any intel they may have about Team Evil. They've reached out to her repeatedly; they're clearly willing to talk. So Serini has good reason to think that they would answer her questions, if only she'd ask them. She might give some credence to the idea that the Order would lie to her, but she probably wouldn't give it a lot of credence — she think's they're blundering fools, not sinister masterminds. And unless she does give a lot of credence to the idea that they're lying, any information they'll give her is likely to be valuable.*

So yeah, it seems to me that the price is right. Although Serini would definitely pay a minor cost, she would stand a good chance of gaining a lot. Of course we the readers know that she would in fact gain a lot, but I'm not appealing to what we know as readers. I'm saying that even from Serini's perspective, she should have realized that it was a good bet.


To illustrate, suppose the Order tells Serini that Xykon has allied with an Ancient Red Dragon, and they're planning on destroying the dungeon completely rather than going tunnel-by-tunnel. And suppose that Serini is extremely suspicious of the Order. But still, unless Serini thinks it's likely that they'd lie about a Red Dragon attack specifically, and she thinks that they definitely wouldn't tell her if there really was a dragon, she should still be much more worried about a Red Dragon attack then she was before.

https://i.imgur.com/jqmNxfP.png

[Peelee]

Except she didn't know Roy was the leader. She assumed Haley was.
After Roy was already down. He was very notably taken out first (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1238.html). Whether you want to argue about the semantics of "would Haley be called" leader"with Roy out of the fight, surely you recognize that she took him down first, yes?

Redcloak started with the one he recognized. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) I think you're reading too much into his targeting choice there, it was driven as much by irritation as anything else. (And tellingly, was also poor tactics at the end of the day, to send your melee bruiser after their melee bruiser using an easy-to-fool identifier.)
And I think you're being too dismissive (about this specifically, in this case, but I also think it's a trend you tend towards). Regardless, though, the Order went to fool the golem because taking out Roy was actually a good tactic. Shockingly.

And none of that has anything to do with Serini not taking out, say, the clerics first. The ones who can actually deal with poison and Sunny's effects should any of them escape the AMF (or it fails.)
So she should have taken out the clerics, who were already in the AMF, in case they escaped the AMF (which they could not do as Durkon openly states the next strip). I just want to get this straight, you are arguing that taking out the most tactically minded person in the Order, which we already know (and had an entire plot regarding) cripples them heavily, was a poor move when she could have taken out the casters, who were already neutralized at the time? Because it really sounds like you're saying that and it is not in any way making me think I was wrong when I questioned your tactical criticisms.

[Nomen]

While I do see the hypocracy in assuming the OOTS would not change there mind because its the last gate whiles he would, her argument is fairly sound.
I still disagree with her but I think that might be part of her point.

[Psyren]

And in this case, I think it's pretty clear that the possible gain is a lot more significant than the definite loss.

The loss is giving the Order the information that Serini is alive. But knowing that she's alive doesn't mean knowing that she's at the Gate, or anything else about the Gate's defenses.

On the other hand, Serini stands to gain significant information about the Order. Who they are, why they're doing what they're doing, any intel they may have about Team Evil. They've reached out to her repeatedly; they're clearly willing to talk. So Serini has good reason to think that they would answer her questions, if only she'd ask them. She might give some credence to the idea that the Order would lie to her, but she probably wouldn't give it a lot of credence — she think's they're blundering fools, not sinister masterminds. And unless she does give a lot of credence to the idea that they're lying, any information they'll give her is likely to be valuable.*

So yeah, it seems to me that the price is right. Although Serini would definitely pay a minor cost, she would stand a good chance of gaining a lot. Of course we the readers know that she would in fact gain a lot, but I'm not appealing to what we know as readers. I'm saying that even from Serini's perspective, she should have realized that it was a good bet.


To illustrate, suppose the Order tells Serini that Xykon has allied with an Ancient Red Dragon, and they're planning on destroying the dungeon completely rather than going tunnel-by-tunnel. And suppose that Serini is extremely suspicious of the Order. But still, unless Serini thinks it's likely that they'd lie about a Red Dragon attack specifically, and she thinks that they definitely wouldn't tell her if there really was a dragon, she should still be much more worried about a Red Dragon attack then she was before.

https://i.imgur.com/jqmNxfP.png



You put it more eloquently than I was able to, so kudos.



And I think you're being too dismissive (about this specifically, in this case, but I also think it's a trend you tend towards). Regardless, though, the Order went to fool the golem because taking out Roy was actually a good tactic. Shockingly.

Not as good as taking out someone clearly weaker like Belkar would have been (who was one hit away from death by his own admission). And if Redcloak couldn't see the party well enough to assess their health, that's all the more reason not to go after the guy who in all likelihood would have the most of it AND be best equipped to deal with a melee bruiser. So I think his going after Roy was indeed based more on emotion than logic.

(Also - even if you think Roy was the optimal target, "start with the human in plate armor" would be the much better order as (a) Roy can't doff it quickly, (b) no one else can don it quickly, and (c) even if they found a way, that would just render all of them much easier to kill.)



So she should have taken out the clerics, who were already in the AMF, in case they escaped the AMF (which they could not do as Durkon openly states the next strip). I just want to get this straight, you are arguing that taking out the most tactically minded person in the Order, which we already know (and had an entire plot regarding) cripples them heavily, was a poor move when she could have taken out the casters, who were already neutralized at the time? Because it really sounds like you're saying that and it is not in any way making me think I was wrong when I questioned your tactical criticisms.

In the specific scenario of "I'm going to defeat the order using poison darts launched from an unseen vantage point?" Yes, taking the opportunity to knock their casters/dwarves off the board would have been the more sensible approach. Even if she knew about Roy's tactics somehow, he can't do anything to counteract poison, whereas the obvious cleric(s) can.

[dancrilis]

Not as good as taking out someone clearly weaker like Belkar would have been (who was one hit away from death by his own admission). And if Redcloak couldn't see the party well enough to assess their health, that's all the more reason not to go after the guy who in all likelihood would have the most of it AND be best equipped to deal with a melee bruiser. So I think his going after Roy was indeed based more on emotion than logic.

Taking out Roy cripples the Order long term in a manner that is not true for taking out Belkar (or Elan or even Haley) - notably Redcloak likely knew about Haley and Belkar in his city (Tsukiko did) and knew that didn't really trouble him at all.



Even if she knew about Roy's tactics somehow, he can't do anything to counteract poison, whereas the obvious cleric(s) can.
Even without magic Roy can still throw his sword, without magic there is no reason to think that Durkon could counteract poison.

[Larsaan]

After Roy was already down. He was very notably taken out first (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1238.html). Whether you want to argue about the semantics of "would Haley be called" leader"with Roy out of the fight, surely you recognize that she took him down first, yes?

It is the physical sequence of events, yes. Why she took him down first is not stated. You think Serini is competent, and therefore must have had a reason for targeting Roy first. I think Serini is (relatively) incompetent, and therefore might well have simply chosen him at random, or because he happened to be talking.

Because let's be real, her tactical acumen doesn't have the most spotless record. She needed Sunny to remind her to use the weapon she's more accurate with.

[Liquor Box]

Honestly, this by itself warrants Serini's criticism of their ability to defeat Xykon for good in my mind.

Serini's information is good enough that there's no way she doesn't know about phylacteries.

Why do you think Serini would know about phylacteries? The Order didn't. Lirian didn't even know Lichs were immune to poison. She's unlikely to have ranks in knowledge religion.

Even if she does know about phylacteries, there's no way she has cause to criticise the Order about them. She doesn't know where Xykon keeps his, she doesn't know if the Order has a plan to find it. We may know the Order hasn't talked about it much, but she doesn't. At most, if she knows about phylacteries, it might just be another reason to think that Xykon is difficult to overcome. But it doesn't reflect poorly on the Order in any way.

[Kantaki]

Why do you think Serini would know about phylacteries? The Order didn't. Lirian didn't even know Lichs were immune to poison. She's unlikely to have ranks in knowledge religion.

Even if she does know about phylacteries, there's no way she has cause to criticise the Order about them. She doesn't know where Xykon keeps his, she doesn't know if the Order has a plan to find it. We may know the Order hasn't talked about it much, but she doesn't. At most, if she knows about phylacteries, it might just be another reason to think that Xykon is difficult to overcome. But it doesn't reflect poorly on the Order in any way.

I mean, it's not entirely inconceivable that Serini did some research into liches after Xykon left her a quarterling.
Just to know how chanceless she is exactly. :smallamused:

[Thermophille]

Why do you think Serini would know about phylacteries? The Order didn't. Lirian didn't even know Lichs were immune to poison. She's unlikely to have ranks in knowledge religion.

Even if she does know about phylacteries, there's no way she has cause to criticise the Order about them. She doesn't know where Xykon keeps his, she doesn't know if the Order has a plan to find it. We may know the Order hasn't talked about it much, but she doesn't. At most, if she knows about phylacteries, it might just be another reason to think that Xykon is difficult to overcome. But it doesn't reflect poorly on the Order in any way.

First of all, Serini is too paranoid not to do in-depth research about liches after almost dying to one. I imagine learning that a practically unfindable phylactery has to be hunted down and destroyed before killing him (which is already nigh-impossible due to being a charisma caster undead) would definitely contribute to the hopelessness she shows here. And 'Serini has no cause to believe the Order doesn't have a plan for the phylactery' doesn't hold water, because she knows they've done significantly dumber things than that.

[hungrycrow]

First of all, Serini is too paranoid not to do in-depth research about liches after almost dying to one. I imagine learning that a practically unfindable phylactery has to be hunted down and destroyed before killing him (which is already nigh-impossible due to being a charisma caster undead) would definitely contribute to the hopelessness she shows here. And 'Serini has no cause to believe the Order doesn't have a plan for the phylactery' doesn't hold water, because she knows they've done significantly dumber things than that.

I wouldn't be surprised if she's researched liches, but she doesn't have much need to look up their weaknesses when she doesn't believe beating Xykon is a possibility in the first place.

[Liquor Box]

I mean, it's not entirely inconceivable that Serini did some research into liches after Xykon left her a quarterling.
Just to know how chanceless she is exactly. :smallamused:

Not inconceivable at all, just not probable. Especially given how uninterested in gathering information about him from the paladins she was.


First of all, Serini is too paranoid not to do in-depth research about liches after almost dying to one. I imagine learning that a practically unfindable phylactery has to be hunted down and destroyed before killing him (which is already nigh-impossible due to being a charisma caster undead) would definitely contribute to the hopelessness she shows here. And 'Serini has no cause to believe the Order doesn't have a plan for the phylactery' doesn't hold water, because she knows they've done significantly dumber things than that.

Why would she research them? She convinced he's unbeatable anyway.

And phylacteries aren't unfindable, they are just a contest between the hider and the seeker. Sorcerers generally would be at a disadvantage against wizards because their spell list is fixed, unless Serini knows Xykon had cloister.

What dumb things does Serini know the Order have done? The only things that we know she knows about them is that they destroyed Girard's gate (which saved the world from a new age of darkness) and that they've soundly trounced her.

[dancrilis]

First of all, Serini is too paranoid not to do in-depth research about liches after almost dying to one.

Liches seem to be fairly uncommon in the lands of The Order of the Stick - knowledge of their creation is likely a closely guarded secret by both Liches themselves and by those who don't want others tempted by the path.

Even if Serini did research into them she might have found very little out, and even if she found out a lot the exact mechanics of the phylactery might not be one of the things she came across.

[Peelee]

It is the physical sequence of events, yes. Why she took him down first is not stated. You think Serini is competent, and therefore must have had a reason for targeting Roy first. I think Serini is (relatively) incompetent, and therefore might well have simply chosen him at random, or because he happened to be talking.

Did she also randomly target V as the first one once they abandoned renewing the anti-magic field and restarted with a fresh slew of targets not currently firing upon her? Also, interesting that you see her as incompetent, considering how she very nearly took down the entire Order with just a couple of monster friends. I remember the word "curbstomp" being tossed around during the fight and people being quite unhappy that she was doing so well against them. But you think she is incompetent regardless, and from that, you think that of a one in six chance she happened to luck across the most useful person to knock out of the fight first.

Also, I do not think she was targeting Roy first because I think she is competent. You have it the other way around, because you seem to think that I'm working like you. I think she is competent because she took down Roy first (and, you know, taking out both paladins almost effortlessly and almost taking down the entire Order - minor things like that). I would imagine that you would find it better to not start with your own conclusions and then draw assumptions in the strip based upon your already-drawn conclusions, but far be it from me to tell you what to do.

[Thermophille]

Why would she research them? She convinced he's unbeatable anyway.

And phylacteries aren't unfindable, they are just a contest between the hider and the seeker. Sorcerers generally would be at a disadvantage against wizards because their spell list is fixed, unless Serini knows Xykon had cloister.

What dumb things does Serini know the Order have done? The only things that we know she knows about them is that they destroyed Girard's gate (which saved the world from a new age of darkness) and that they've soundly trounced her.

Being convinced Xykon is unbeatable didn't happen instantly when she almost died. It took a while, and I imagine her research into liches was part of that.

And saying that Xykon is at a huge disadvantage is a pretty big stretch. He's had decades to find a good hiding spot and put abjurations around it by any means he pleases, including his cleric. Serini probably didn't know he kept it out in the open in the first place. You're claiming the chicken came before the egg by saying she was already defeatist, while I'm proposing the opposite, that her findings on liches are part of the reason she's so hopeless.

As for stuff she's seen the Order do, I'm assuming she saw what happened at Dorukan's gate, since I'm guessing she can look through her Gate to see out of other Gates, which would explain why she knew so much about the specific events involved in the destruction of every Gate.

[Larsaan]

Did she also randomly target V as the first one once they abandoned renewing the anti-magic field and restarted with a fresh slew of targets not currently firing upon her?

No. I am not saying she is fully incapable of making any correct tactical decisions at all, and identifying a wizard as a primary threat is pretty basic stuff.


Also, interesting that you see her as incompetent, considering how she very nearly took down the entire Order with just a couple of monster friends. ... But you think she is incompetent regardless,

I did preface it with (relatively), because she's obviously got some skills and tricks - but yes, I do think she's a lot less capable than she puts on. Her success against the Order came entirely from having befriended a beholder and owning very potent magical gear. The initial ambush was competently put together, but after that she's been rather lacking in both dealing with unexpected turns of events, and actual combat performance. Throughout the fight, the only targets she managed to hit were a blind and flatfooted fighter, and a slowed wizard. Without Sunny, she'd have been nowhere.


you think that of a one in six chance she happened to luck across the most useful person to knock out of the fight first.

Well... yes.


I think she is competent because she took down Roy first (and, you know, taking out both paladins almost effortlessly and almost taking down the entire Order - minor things like that).

Serini didn't almost take down the entire Order, Sunny did. And taking out a pair of mid-level paladins isn't very impressive when you have access to a wand of invisibility and a knockout-toxin that seems to beat any fortitude save.


I would imagine that you would find it better to not start with your own conclusions and then draw assumptions in the strip based upon your already-drawn conclusions, but far be it from me to tell you what to do.

I am drawing conclusions from the strip, and I would appreciate it if you dialled down the condescension.

[Peelee]

No. I am not saying she is fully incapable of making any correct tactical decisions at all, and identifying a wizard as a primary threat is pretty basic stuff.
And yet her very first shot went for the non-ranged fighter instead of the obvious wizard or sharpshooter. "Pretty basic stuff" is also "take down people in order of their importance when possible", and it was certainly possible for her there.

I did preface it with (relatively), because she's obviously got some skills and tricks - but yes, I do think she's a lot less capable than she puts on. Her success against the Order came entirely from having befriended a beholder and owning very potent magical gear. The initial ambush was competently put together, but after that she's been rather lacking in both dealing with unexpected turns of events, and actual combat performance. Throughout the fight, the only targets she managed to hit were a blind and flatfooted fighter, and a slowed wizard. Without Sunny, she'd have been nowhere.
Without Sunny, she'd have relied on other skills and tricks set up in advance. I'll totally agree that she doesn't seem terribly adept at a dynamic, shifting battle, but she can clearly prep like nobody's business.

Serini didn't almost take down the entire Order, Sunny did. And taking out a pair of mid-level paladins isn't very impressive when you have access to a wand of invisibility and a knockout-toxin that seems to beat any fortitude save.
Yes, if we say that every time she was competent don't count, then she wasn't very competent. But that's hardly being fair.

I am drawing conclusions from the strip
See above.

and I would appreciate it if you dialled down the condescension.
That's fair. Sorry.

[Liquor Box]

Being convinced Xykon is unbeatable didn't happen instantly when she almost died. It took a while, and I imagine her research into liches was part of that.

Why do you imagine that? There's no basis for it. She tells us why she's terrified of him in 1249:

Lien: You just think he's unbeatable because he beat you
Serini: Of course I think that! He ripped me apart like I was a bundle of twigs! Dor and Lir were so much better than me and he beat them!


And saying that Xykon is at a huge disadvantage is a pretty big stretch. He's had decades to find a good hiding spot and put abjurations around it by any means he pleases, including his cleric. Serini probably didn't know he kept it out in the open in the first place. You're claiming the chicken came before the egg by saying she was already defeatist, while I'm proposing the opposite, that her findings on liches are part of the reason she's so hopeless.

I didn't say Xykon. I said Sorcerers generally. Wizards can memorise whatever spell they need to fit the situation whereas sorcerers have a limited number of spells they have to use all the time, and a combat focused sorcerer like Xykon is unlikely to learn spells for hiding things.

Of course we know differently, but we are talking about Serini's knowledge.


As for stuff she's seen the Order do, I'm assuming she saw what happened at Dorukan's gate, since I'm guessing she can look through her Gate to see out of other Gates, which would explain why she knew so much about the specific events involved in the destruction of every Gate.

I think it's reasonable to assume she didn't see Dorukon's gate, because she only mentioned Soon's gate and Girard's gate in this strip (Dancrillis pointed out that there were indications earlier that she'd only seen the two as well).

If she did see Dorukon's gate, she'd know the Order already beat Xykon once. If she saw that she has even less reason to think he's unbeatable.


Yes, if we say that every time she was competent don't count, then she wasn't very competent. But that's hardly being fair.
This is not what Larson said. He didn't say anything about her competence not counting. He is saying that in his opinion it is not competence at all. You suggested that taking down part of the Order was due to Serini's competence. He is saying it was not, it was due to the beholder's power.

[Ruck]

Why does everyone think the godsmoot will convince Serini?

Because Serini's concern is keeping the Gate standing because that keeps the world standing. If the world is going to be destroyed anyway if Xykon takes the Gate, that would necessarily change her calculus.


If the gods destroy the world then everyone's soul will go to the afterlife. If the snarl gets loose it will unmake a lot of souls before the gods can destroy it.
The world being destroyed is still the better of the 2 options.
It would only convince her more that she is right. There won't even be a lich overlord if the gods intervine

Not sure what that has to do with the world standing, or why that would lead her to conclude "It's still better to let Xykon take the Gate than risk destroying it." Her stance is that she doesn't want the world destroyed; even assuming your conclusions, why would "The world being destroyed is the better option" make her think she was right all along?


Right, because it caused her to get no information about the Order or their capabilities, leading directly to her loss to them. (In addition to learning nothing about Xykon.)

Nothing in your proposed response guarantees getting more information about the Order, either.


From the Order's perspective, it seems like Elan's logic has rubbed off on Roy and he's basing his plan on the idea that Xykon losing and then coming back is too dramatically unsatisfying to happen.

I would guess it's more likely the idea that if they can defeat Xykon and subdue Redcloak, Redcloak will know something about the phylactery and what to do with it.

[Peelee]

Right, because it caused her to get no information about the Order or their capabilities, leading directly to her loss to them. (In addition to learning nothing about Xykon.)

Similarly, not buying a lottery ticket caused me to not win $133,000,000, leading directly to my home foreclosure.

[dancrilis]

I would guess it's more likely the idea that if they can defeat Xykon and subdue Redcloak, Redcloak will know something about the phylactery and what to do with it.

Which is kindof a weird thing to think - the Order know that Xykon and Redcloak have been working together for a decent period of time, they know that after Xykon was destroyed Redcloak secured the phylactery until he returned - so they can assume that the relationship is not one based on immediate power.

Given the above it is not unreasonable to assume that Xykon and Redcloak are friends - as such planning to kill Redcloak's lich buddy and then expecting him to help them with anything (let alone finishing Xykon off) seem odd.

Now we the audience know that Redcloak and Xykon are not overly friendly but the Order has no reason to assume that - particularly after they just meet Malack and Tarquin being friends despite a species and life barrier, this might just be them treating Xykon and Redcloak as merely monsters rather then people due to bias.

[Thermophille]

Why do you imagine that? There's no basis for it. She tells us why she's terrified of him in 1249:

Lien: You just think he's unbeatable because he beat you
Serini: Of course I think that! He ripped me apart like I was a bundle of twigs! Dor and Lir were so much better than me and he beat them!


Most of your points are fair, but I don't think being terrified of Xykon meant she thought he was unbeatable immediately. She says in the quote you gave that a large basis for her opinion on Xykon's invulnerability is the fact he beat Dorukan and Lirian, which to me implies that there was likely a period where she was invested in finding an exploitable weakness for Xykon. I'm not saying that Serini definitely knows Xykon has a phylactery, just that I think it's a strong possibility.




I would guess it's more likely the idea that if they can defeat Xykon and subdue Redcloak, Redcloak will know something about the phylactery and what to do with it.

Okay, that's actually a valid point, thank you. Assuming that without Xykon's immediate presence, Redcloak would be more open to assist them, he might also be more open to revealing the phylactery's location. A strong 'might', but a whole lot better than patting yourself on the back when Angry Lich is going to be coming over in a couple days.

[pyrefiend]

Similarly, not buying a lottery ticket caused me to not win $133,000,000, leading directly to my home foreclosure.

The difference is that Serini should have realized that her odds of getting valuable information from the Order were many times higher than the odds of hitting the jackpot on a lottery ticket.

Serini's decision not to respond would only make sense if there was basically zero chance of getting useful intel from the Order. And it's totally unreasonable for her to think the odds are that low. Even if Serini was right to think that The Order are bumbling fools, they have fought Xykon in person, multiple times! The idea that there's next to no chance of them having any useful information is not just false but obviously false.

I'm not saying it's bad writing. I can understand why Serini is being unreasonable — she's arrogant, fearful, and jaded. She's a tragic character, and an interesting antagonist. But she is definitely being unreasonable, and I don't think we're supposed to think otherwise.

[Peelee]

The difference is that Serini should have realized that her odds of getting valuable information from the Order were many times higher than the odds of hitting the jackpot on a lottery ticket.

Yes, I am not saying that she literally had the same odds as winning the powerball. I am, however, saying that "she did not talk to them and thus did not get any information and this directly led to her losing to them" is a remarkably poor argument that accepts as fact uncertainties that may not have occurred. We still don't even know what Serini knows about the Order, so making such definitive statements strikes me as incredibly.... Bold, I'll say.

[Windscion]

O'Chul had time to observe RC and Xykon, and spent time talking to MitD. It would not be astonishing if he (i) saw that they were not BFFs, and (ii) provided this important information to the order.
Also, if they took out Xykon, RC would have fewer resources and hence need to consider other options.

[Liquor Box]

O'Chul had time to observe RC and Xykon, and spent time talking to MitD. It would not be astonishing if he (i) saw that they were not BFFs, and (ii) provided this important information to the order.
Also, if they took out Xykon, RC would have fewer resources and hence need to consider other options.

I don't think there's any doubt that there's tons of stuff the Order and Paladins know that could be useful. I mean they have most of his spell list which in invaluable. There's lots of other stuff they might have known that from Serini's perspective that could be crucial - for example how he plans on harnessing the Snarl's power and hence how risky that is.

I think the discussion is about whether it Serini had good enough reason to believe they had useful information to risk letting them in on her existence.

To me the lower hanging fruit is to point out how silly it was of her to not question the paladins to find out what they knew when she had them in her power and was giving them info freely.

[Mike Havran]

The difference is that Serini should have realized that her odds of getting valuable information from the Order were many times higher than the odds of hitting the jackpot on a lottery ticket.

Serini's decision not to respond would only make sense if there was basically zero chance of getting useful intel from the Order. And it's totally unreasonable for her to think the odds are that low. Even if Serini was right to think that The Order are bumbling fools, they have fought Xykon in person, multiple times! The idea that there's next to no chance of them having any useful information is not just false but obviously false.

I'm not saying it's bad writing. I can understand why Serini is being unreasonable — she's arrogant, fearful, and jaded. She's a tragic character, and an interesting antagonist. But she is definitely being unreasonable, and I don't think we're supposed to think otherwise.I'm 100% sure this has been brought up before but I would like to point out Serini had very little reason to think the Order would be allied with her perspective. They were just another big risk to the Gate and the World (in fact, more dangerous than Xykon due to their record). If she responded, she would be giving them crucial information (that she si alive, reachable and aware of them), with obvious follow-up that she is located at Kraagor's Gate (where else?). When they come north now, they will be expecting her to show up, making any ambush more difficult to prepare and execute.

From Serini's perspective, I see very little intel to be gained that would trump what she was giving away by responding.

[pyrefiend]

I'm 100% sure this has been brought up before but I would like to point out Serini had very little reason to think the Order would be allied with her perspective. They were just another big risk to the Gate and the World (in fact, more dangerous than Xykon due to their record).

I guess my question is, why is that relevant? Even if Serini knew for a fact that the Order was 100% planning on destroying the Gate, they still have a ton of valuable information concerning themselves and Xykon, and they seem open to sharing.

[dancrilis]

I guess my question is, why is that relevant? Even if Serini knew for a fact that the Order was 100% planning on destroying the Gate, they still have a ton of valuable information concerning themselves and Xykon, and they seem open to sharing.

Because if hypothetically a member of the order walked up to a member of Team Evil and said 'Hullo (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html)' and further hypothetically if that member of team evil decided to capture them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1214.html) and to extend that hypothetical if the capture was successful then Team Evil would be able to get the information that Serini was still alive and as they have access to her diary that would mean they might be able to press her buttons very well to reveal the location of the gate.


It was her diary after all that allowed Xykon to so successfully push Dorukan's buttons - and it is reasonable that her diary has more information on her then on him.

[Mike Havran]

I guess my question is, why is that relevant? Even if Serini knew for a fact that the Order was 100% planning on destroying the Gate, they still have a ton of valuable information concerning themselves and Xykon, and they seem open to sharing.Just the other day I got a message from this Prince who seemed open to sharing his valuable millions with me, provided I send him some information about myself. I ain't no aging paranoid rogue who guards the last cornerstone of the world, but even so, I thought it was unreasonable to respond.

[pyrefiend]

Because if hypothetically a member of the order walked up to a member of Team Evil and said 'Hullo (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html)' and further hypothetically if that member of team evil decided to capture them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1214.html) and to extend that hypothetical if the capture was successful then Team Evil would be able to get the information that Serini was still alive and as they have access to her diary that would mean they might be able to press her buttons very well to reveal the location of the gate.

Right now Team Evil doesn't know whether Serini is alive, and do not know where she is. If everything you're describing came to pass, they'd know she's alive but they still wouldn't know where she is. Is that really such a big difference? Especially compared to what Serini stands to gain?


Just the other day I got a message from this Prince who seemed open to sharing his valuable millions with me, provided I send him some information about myself. I ain't no aging paranoid rogue who guards the last cornerstone of the world, but even so, I thought it was unreasonable to respond.

I'm genuinely confused about why people keep saying stuff like this. Isn't the disanalogy obvious? You have excellent reason to think that you have nothing to gain by responding to the email. Serini had excellent reason to think she would have a lot to gain by interrogating the Order.

[Peelee]

Serini had excellent reason to think she would have a lot to gain by interrogating the Order.

You say this, but by all appearances, she did not.

[pyrefiend]

You say this, but by all appearances, she did not.

They clearly had first hand knowledge of the threats to the Gates (including themselves!) It seems crazy to be so dismissive of the idea that they might know something useful. Like Xykon's spell list, for example. Or V's spell list, for that matter!

[Peelee]

They clearly had first hand knowledge of the threats to the Gates (including themselves!) It seems crazy to be so dismissive of the idea that they might know something useful. Like Xykon's spell list, for example. Or V's spell list, for that matter!

They didn't know Xykon's spell list at all without the incredibly unlikely scenario of "a prisoner that Xykon used his spells on until he was able to compile an exhaustive list and then was also able to survive and also escape unharmed and regroup with the Order".

Yet again (though you are not Psyren, this applies to you as well), what you think is likely is not what Serini thinks is likely. Which is handy, since what you think is likely is, we know for a fact, virtually impossible without their wizard selling their soul in a once-in-a-lifetime deal.

Not to mention how you imagine it would have gone down. "Out of curiosity, what is the full spell list of your party Wizard, and also what weaknesses are you susceptible to? Please speak judiciously"?

ETA: And all that is not even going into how you still don't even know what Serini knows. But you are somehow qualified to state with absolute certainty what she could learn without even knowing what she knows. A bold move, I must say.

[dancrilis]

Right now Team Evil doesn't know whether Serini is alive, and do not know where she is. If everything you're describing came to pass, they'd know she's alive but they still wouldn't know where she is.

Is that really such a big difference?

I split the quote to emphasise the second - yes it is a massive deal.

We don't know if Serini has children, nieces, nephews, siblings, living parents, cousins, friends etc, and we don't know what she thinks of any of those people ... but all that information is likely included in her diary.

If Xykon knows she is alive then he likely knows that she knows she knows how to access the Gate, if Xykon knows that she can be contacted via sending then he likely knows he can contact her via sending - if he puts all that together he can threaten her with whatever he needs to get her to surrender the gate.
Now maybe there is nothing in her diary to help him - but that is a gamble that she might not want to make.

[hungrycrow]

They didn't know Xykon's spell list at all without the incredibly unlikely scenario of "a prisoner that Xykon used his spells on until he was able to compile an exhaustive list and then was also able to survive and also escape unharmed and regroup with the Order".


She at the very least knows Ochul faced Xykon in the throne room. If she doesn't know about the Order's various engagements with Xykon, then there's a massive gap in her knowledge where the Order could have done and learned anything.

We know that her assumptions about the Order's capabilities, knowledge, and intentions are wrong. So either she is aware that she's making assumptions and is passing on easy opportunities to confirm or improve those assumptions; or, what I think is the case based on her dialogue and actions, she's totally certain about her assumptions and is just colossally arrogant.

[Peelee]

She at the very least knows Ochul faced Xykon in the throne room. If she doesn't know about the Order's various engagements with Xykon, then there's a massive gap in her knowledge where the Order could have done and learned anything.

We know that her assumptions about the Order's capabilities, knowledge, and intentions are wrong. So either she is aware that she's making assumptions and is passing on easy opportunities to confirm or improve those assumptions; or, what I think is the case based on her dialogue and actions, she's totally certain about her assumptions and is just colossally arrogant.

I agree that she is certain about her assumptions and colossally arrogant! Which is an excellent reason for her to not have reason to think she would have a lot to gain by responding to the Order's Sendings.

[hungrycrow]

I agree that she is certain about her assumptions and colossally arrogant! Which is an excellent reason for her to not have reason to think she would have a lot to gain by responding to the Order's Sendings.

Oh, well, alright then. Agreement achieved!

[dancrilis]

I agree that she is certain about her assumptions and colossally arrogant!

Certain in her assumptions is debatable but likely fine - colossally arrogant seems to fall flat given that her entire arguement seems to be that she isn't able to take on Xykon regardless of help.

[pyrefiend]

I agree that she is certain about her assumptions and colossally arrogant! Which is an excellent reason for her to not have reason to think she would have a lot to gain by responding to the Order's Sendings.

I'm not even sure we disagree. If you're saying that Serini's only reason for not responding to the Order is that she's colossally arrogant, then presumably you don't think she was being reasonable in not responding to them. Maybe we're just using "reason" in different ways.


If Xykon knows she is alive then he likely knows that she knows she knows how to access the Gate, if Xykon knows that she can be contacted via sending then he likely knows he can contact her via sending - if he puts all that together he can threaten her with whatever he needs to get her to surrender the gate.

Xykon doesn't need to know she's alive to try doing this.

[Peelee]

I'm not even sure we disagree. If you're saying that Serini's only reason for not responding to the Order is that she's colossally arrogant, then presumably you don't think she was being reasonable in not responding to them. Maybe we're just using "reason" in different ways.

I believe my objection against has always been "she is not obligated to talk to them", which does not necessarily require reasonableness.

Also, separately, I am colossally arrogant yet I think I am fairly reasonable.:smallwink:

[Petrocorus]

She at the very least knows Ochul faced Xykon in the throne room.

BTW, do we know how she knows this?

[hungrycrow]

BTW, do we know how she knows this?

Nope. Hopefully she reveals her source over the next few strips. Or at least offers enough extra details that we can make better guesses.

[Liquor Box]

Certain in her assumptions is debatable but likely fine - colossally arrogant seems to fall flat given that her entire arguement seems to be that she isn't able to take on Xykon regardless of help.

I don't think there's any inconsistency being overly arrogant in thinking you know what's best and noone else can contribute, while at the same time thinking you can't fight Xykon. Arrogance doesn't mean you think you're infallible.


I agree that she is certain about her assumptions and colossally arrogant! Which is an excellent reason for her to not have reason to think she would have a lot to gain by responding to the Order's Sendings.

Do you really think being overly certain and colossally arrogant are 'excellent' reasons? They seem like pretty poor reasons for making decisions to me.


Now maybe there is nothing in her diary to help him - but that is a gamble that she might not want to make.

Surely Serini knows if there's any such person in her diary. There either is or there isn't - so it's not a gamble at all.


BTW, do we know how she knows this?

We don't, but there are some theories.

The one I find most compelling is that whatever notification she gets that a gate falls gives her some information about the events immediately surrounding its fall. Dancrillis proposed in the last thread that this only let her see information around Girard's and Soon's gate because the others were destroyed in an explosion/fire), which is consistent with her only mentioning those two in this latest strip.

She certainly hasn't mentioned knowledge of anything other than the events immediately surrounding the fall of Girard's and Soon's gates.

[hungrycrow]

Surely Serini knows if there's any such person in her diary. There either is or there isn't - so it's not a gamble at all.

She mentioned having a kid a couple pages ago. Of course she could have been lying to sell her bluff better. Or she could have been referring to Sunny.

[Peelee]

Do you really think being overly certain and colossally arrogant are 'excellent' reasons? They seem like pretty poor reasons for making decisions to me.

You seem pretty certain about that. Does this mean you are questioning it and will do the exact opposite of what you are certain of?

[Snails]

Certain in her assumptions is debatable but likely fine - colossally arrogant seems to fall flat given that her entire arguement seems to be that she isn't able to take on Xykon regardless of help.

Almost dying a horrible death may have punctured her colossal arrogance in one narrow particular area.

Serini is certainly colossally arrogant in certain aspects: she is dismissive of the Order and presumes that they cannot possibly be reasoned with, with respect to changing strategies/tactics for the one final Gate.

[pyrefiend]

Missed this post before...


They didn't know Xykon's spell list at all without the incredibly unlikely scenario of "a prisoner that Xykon used his spells on until he was able to compile an exhaustive list and then was also able to survive and also escape unharmed and regroup with the Order".

I didn't mean to imply that the Order would be likely to have an exhaustive spell list. I was only saying that they might know part of Xykon's spell list.


Yet again (though you are not Psyren, this applies to you as well), what you think is likely is not what Serini thinks is likely. Which is handy, since what you think is likely is, we know for a fact, virtually impossible without their wizard selling their soul in a once-in-a-lifetime deal.

Not sure what you mean by the second part, but I'm not trying to describe what Serini thought was likely. I'm not even suggesting that Serini should have thought that she was likely to get useful information from the Order. I'm saying she should have thought that there was a non-negligible chance of getting useful information. I realize that Serini probably did not think that. I'm saying she should have.


Not to mention how you imagine it would have gone down. "Out of curiosity, what is the full spell list of your party Wizard, and also what weaknesses are you susceptible to? Please speak judiciously"?

Serini knows that the Order described themselves as attempting to protect the gates. She could tell a lie about wanting to shore up her magical defenses, and asking what the Order's party Wizard can contribute. That's off the top of my head, and I'm not an epic level rogue.


ETA: And all that is not even going into how you still don't even know what Serini knows. But you are somehow qualified to state with absolute certainty what she could learn without even knowing what she knows. A bold move, I must say.

I never claimed to know anything with certainty. It could turn out that Serini in fact had no good reason to respond to the Order. But based on the comic so far, that doesn't seem likely. (I mean, her stated reason for not wanting to talk to them is that they're double noodle soup-for-brains.) In any case, it's certainly no less bold to claim that Serini did have some good reason to think that she had nothing to gain by talking to the Order.


I believe my objection against has always been "she is not obligated to talk to them", which does not necessarily require reasonableness.

I'm not suggesting that she owes it to the Order to talk to them because they're heroes, or protagonists, or good folks, or whatever. I do think that she should have done pretty much everything in her power to safeguard the Gate, and that she failed to do so by arrogantly and unreasonably ignoring a potential source of useful information. So in that sense I do think she failed to do what she was obligated to do, but by that I don't mean to imply that she failed in an obligation to the Order.

[Liquor Box]

You seem pretty certain about that. Does this mean you are questioning it and will do the exact opposite of what you are certain of?

I used the word 'seem' because I was not certain, and I explicitly questioned it.

Anyway, there's a difference between thinking you are right and being "colossally arrogant" in thinking you are right. You said the second of Serini. Do you think it's fair to say her colossal arrogance in thinking she knows everything she needs to was a flaw in her decision making?