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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Revenant Soul: the Ghost Sorcerer



GalacticAxekick
2022-03-18, 12:19 PM
A long time ago I wrote a set of monster stats (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/_FCM0bfXJ) as a proof-of-concept. I wanted to see if I could change monsters that are basically just bags of hit points into puzzles whose overwhelming offense or defense can only be overcome strategically.

Two of those monsters—the Poltergeist and the Phantom—represented a radical change in how 5e handles ghosts. It treats them as disembodied consciousnesses: as humanoids no different from PCs, except that they have no physical presence whatsoever.

In order to overcome their lack of bodies, my ghosts rely on spellcasting. Poltergeist (immature ghosts, so to speak) use spells like Mage Hand to grope at their surroundings and make sense of where they are, Phantom Lights to make their presence known, and Message to speak to the living. Phantoms (mature ghosts) use spells like Clairvoyance to see and hear, Fly to move, and Dominate Person to take possession of humanoid bodies.

These ghosts were a huge success at my table, which leads to my next project: letting players play as ghosts!

Haunt
5th level Necromancy

Casting Time: Action
Range: 10 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Until dispelled
This spell ejects your spirit from your body, leaving your body unconscious while your soul roams free.

By default, your disembodied spirit appears within your body's space and hovers there, even if your body is moved elsewhere. Alternatively, the moment that you cast this spell, you can choose a creature or object that you can see within range and anchor your spirit to it. In that case, your spirit appears in the target's space and follows the target wherever it moves.

Your spirit has the following features:


Deathless. As a disembodied spirit, you have a hit point maximum is equal to your body's hit point maximum, minus any hit points granted by your Constitution modifier. When you are reduced to 0 hit points, this spell is dispelled.

Restless. As a disembodied spirit, you do not sleep. Instead, you gain the benefits of a long rest when you spend at least 8 hours inactive.

Shapeless. As a disembodied spirit, you have no physical form. You are invisible and intangible, and you can neither perceive nor interact with the physical world, except through magic. As a result of this, you are immune to any affect which involves an attack roll, a Strength, Dexterity or Constitution check, or a Strength, Dexterity or Constitution saving throw. In addition, you are immune to all damage types except for force, necrotic, psychic, and radiant.

Eschew Components. For lack of body, voice, and possessions, your spirit ignores the verbal, somatic and material components of spells (except for costly material components). You nonetheless cannot cast a spell with verbal components in an area of Silence.


If you choose to end this spell, if this spell is dispelled, or if your spirit is banished, you instantly return to your body. If your body is dead when you are forced to return, you die.

If you cast this spell while you are already under its effects, you can anchor your spirit to a new target within range.

Revenant Soul
Ghosts are the disembodied spirits of humanoids, anchored to the material plane by a sorcerous spell cast in the desperate throes of death. Whether you are a true ghost or someone who discovered ghostly power during a near-death experience, you have learned to tap in the the magical power of the soul. You will only die when your hope dies.

Die Trying
Starting at 1st level, when your body reduced to 0 hit points, you can instantaneously cast Haunt without expending spell slots.

When you cast Haunt using this feature, your soul is anchored to the world of the living by your desperate will to live and see one task to the bitter end. Work with your DM to decide precisely what this task is.

Until your task is resolved, your Haunt cannot be dispelled. When your soul is reduced to 0 hit points, you are merely incapacitated for 1 week. The moment you either complete your task or lose all hope of completing it, you are banished.

Go Ghost
Starting at 1st level, when you are not under the effects of Haunt, you can cast Haunt as a ritual.

If your Haunt is dispelled or your spirit is reduced to 0 hit points and your body is dead, you can work with your DM to decide on unresolved business, which anchors to the world of the living.

Vicarious Living
Starting at 6th level, when you use Haunt to anchor yourself to a creature, you can perceive through that creature's senses.

Likewise, when you use Haunt to anchor yourself to an object , you can see, hear, and sense touch through that object.

Possession
Starting at 14th level, while you are using Haunt to anchor yourself to a beast or humanoid, you an use your action to cast Dominate Beast or Dominate Person on that target without expending spell slots. Whichever spell you cast ends if your Haunt ends.

Any hit points that the target you are dominating loses are also lost by your spirit.

Improved Possession
Starting at 18th level, while you are using Haunt to anchor yourself to any creature, you an use your action to cast Dominate Monster on that target without expending spell slots. This spell ends if your Haunt ends.

Any hit points that the target you are dominating loses are also lost by your spirit


When you create a Revenant Soul Sorcerer, you and your DM must decide whether you are already dead or not.

If your body is dead and you exist only as a ghost, you will need powerful spells to perceive and explore your surroundings (such as Clairvoyance and Fly), and you will need the Indefatigable Purpose feature to have these spells active simultaneously. It is advisable that you create a Sorcerer of 6th level or higher.

If your body still lives, however, Haunt is merely a supplement to your abilities: a means to travel, scout and meddle where your body cannot reach and where you cannot be harmed, and a desperate last resort when your body is reduced to 0 hit points. In this case, it's perfectly acceptable to create a Sorcerer of 1st level.

Loek
2022-03-19, 08:27 AM
Shapeless "and you can neither perceive nor interact with the physical world through magic." <== I'm going to assume this sentence is lacking an "except" so "except through magic"?
Because otherwise they can do exactly nothing.

Also, is there a reason why you don't use the ethereal plane and other sources of magical damage to affect the haunt? (And what senses/magics/situations will allow others to see the haunt?)

Eschew Components I'd limit this to non-expensive components only. So that silence spells and such can still limit the haunt. Yes, I know they are making those movements only in their minds and the sounds can't be heard by anything. But gameplay wise, having the option to somewhat shut them down seems like a good idea.

Also, Haunt overal: Will their body still require food/drink/shelter etc?



Revenant Soul I don't know how to feel about this sub-class. The whole idea and feel is awesome, but it has some major "non PC" feel about it. Potential near immortality (My goal is to kill the big bad/god/some such), srange resting times/inactivity.

I think the class would flow more sensibly if the 6th level feature was Possession. Which shouldn't hurt too much, as the sorcerer can always use non concentration spells in combination with your concentration sensor spells. (Unless I'm missing something and you have 0 movement options without magic, in which case... jikes)

And finally, the possession abilities "Any damage that the target you are dominating takes is also dealt to your spirit." <== does this translate to "if they lose hp, you lose hp" or to "they take 5 fire damage, you take 5 fire damage" (which you'd be immune to anyhow)



All together: This idea feels good for roleplay/world building. But I'm not entirely sure if this will flow nicely in a party structure unless everyone is a ghost.
Add to that the fact that many encounters that don't have magic/very specific items will have 0 tools to counter the haunt people.

GalacticAxekick
2022-03-19, 11:29 AM
Shapeless "and you can neither perceive nor interact with the physical world through magic." <== I'm going to assume this sentence is lacking an "except" so "except through magic"?
Because otherwise they can do exactly nothing.EXCEPT through magic. I'll fix that in a moment.


Also, is there a reason why you don't use the ethereal plane Because my concept of a ghost has nothing to do with the ethereal plane. A ghost resides on the material plane, same as a living person.


Is there any reason why you don't use [...] other sources of magical damage to affect the haunt?The haunt has absolutely no physical presence, so its immune to attacks, Str/Dex/Con effects, and physical damage types. A magical attack like a laser or a magic sword is still an attack that must physically touch its target. So there's no reason for those to be exceptions.


(And what senses/magics/situations will allow others to see the haunt?)Detect Magic, Detect Thoughts, and See Invisibility leap to mind.


Eschew Components I'd limit this to non-expensive components only. So that silence spells and such can still limit the haunt. Yes, I know they are making those movements only in their minds and the sounds can't be heard by anything. But gameplay wise, having the option to somewhat shut them down seems like a good idea.So the Haunt is considered to able to gesture, speak, and have an arcane focus for the purpose of somatic, verbal and material components. But it is still vulnerable to Silence and still in need of costly components. Sure!


Also, Haunt overal: Will their body still require food/drink/shelter etc?Yup!


Revenant Soul I don't know how to feel about this sub-class. The whole idea and feel is awesome, but it has some major "non PC" feel about it. Potential near immortality (My goal is to kill the big bad/god/some such), srange resting times/inactivity. The DM has to agree with your goal so they can prevent ridiculous things like "kill god"

In addition, you can be killed instantly by any spell that banishes you while your body is dead.

So I'm not worried about immortality. The strange resting times, however, are a problem. I'll try to get those in order!


I think the class would flow more sensibly if the 6th level feature was Possession. Which shouldn't hurt too much, as the sorcerer can always use non concentration spells in combination with your concentration sensor spells. (Unless I'm missing something and you have 0 movement options without magic, in which case... jikes)That's correct. You have 0 movement options without magic.


And finally, the possession abilities "Any damage that the target you are dominating takes is also dealt to your spirit." <== does this translate to "if they lose hp, you lose hp" or to "they take 5 fire damage, you take 5 fire damage" (which you'd be immune to anyhow)If they lose HP, you lose HP. You can cast powerful "Dominate" spells without expending slots but you endanger yourself in the process.

Old Harry MTX
2022-03-19, 12:14 PM
I actually like a lot of these ideas. Some time ago I was thinking of creating a kind of necromancer as a sorcerer subclass, developing this concept: since, in general, the undead can be divided into two categories (ghosts and corpses), this necromancer would have the power to split temporarily in two entities, one ghostly (the gheist) and one corporeal (the leiche), each with its strengths and weaknesses, and shared life points... I would love to use some of yours ideas for the "gheist" part!

Anyway, I have the same doubt Loek has... I would probably add to "Haunt" some sort of decaying for the body.

GalacticAxekick
2022-03-19, 01:12 PM
Anyway, I have the same doubt Loek has... I would probably add to "Haunt" some sort of decaying for the body.Like I said to Loek, if your body is alive, the normal rules for hunger and thirst apply. If your body is dead, you cant return to it, regardless of its state of decay.

Theres no need for the spell to describe how starvation works (because we already know) nor how decay works (because it doesn't matter)

GalacticAxekick
2022-03-19, 07:21 PM
All together: This idea feels good for roleplay/world building. But I'm not entirely sure if this will flow nicely in a party structure unless everyone is a ghost.I hear you! In order for a Revenant Soul to work in a party, I think it needs to (A) be able to move around with everyone else (B) be able to see what's going on (C) be able to communicate with everyone else and (D) rest on the same schedule.

C is covered by the Message cantrip

D just requires a minor edit to how Haunts rest (8 hours of inactivity instead of 24 hours)

But A and B are tricky! I dont want to give Revenant Souls any senses or speeds (that contradicts the theme that they are helpless without spells and ruins Poltergeist), but if they rely on spells they have nothing until Misty Step Levitate show up 3rd level, and nothing GOOD until Clairvoyance and Fly show up at 5th level. Even then, that's only 10 minutes of movement or sight per 3rd level slot. With spells alone, Revenant Souls will NEVER be able to keep up.

So here is my compromise:
Add the Haunt Host feature at 1st level.
Delete Go Ghost
Add Haunt Host Improvement at 6th level.
Delete Indefatigable Purpose


Haunt Host
Starting at 1st level, the moment that you cast Haunt, you can choose a creature or object that you can see within 60 feet of yourself and anchor your spirit to that target. Your spirit appears within the target's space and follows the target for the spell's duration, until your spirit moves itself, or until it is forcibly moved.

Haunt Host Improvement
Starting at 6th level, when you use Haunt Host to anchor your spirit to a creature, you can perceive through that creature's senses.

Likewise, when you use Haunt Host to anchor your spirit to an object, you can see, hear, and sense touch through that object.


Add to that the fact that many encounters that don't have magic/very specific items will have 0 tools to counter the haunt people.Ideally, ghosts should rely heavily on their parties to move, speak and interact with objects. The nigh-invulnerability of a ghost should be countered by its total dependence on its allies.

While a wolf cant harm a ghost, for example, it can kill the ghost's party and leave the ghost stranded in the woods, blind, deaf and mute. And remember what happens to hopeless ghosts?

At higher levels, the ghost will be able to move short distances and see for a few minutes or hours of the day without help. But at those same levels, magic enemies become more common. Even if an enemy isnt prepared with the right spells right when it finds the ghost, it can come back with them later, knowing the ghost cant move far.

EDIT: I could bake the Haunt Host effect into Haunt itself!

At 6th level, Revenant Souls would gain the power to borrow the hosts senses

And at 14th level, they would use Dominate to possess the host

Loek
2022-03-20, 07:02 AM
Oh, that's an interesting solution. That might work. This fixes both the "not related to the group" and the minimum required to be able to do things.


I had thought up a possible alternative solution, and I'm not sure which one I like more, so lemme post it here anyhow (for inspiration at a minimum).

I was thinking that you could give them a "Magical Motivation" type ability. Where they can burn a spellslot to give them both senses and some movement.
Where the level of the spell slot and the level of the Sorcerer both have influence on what happens. (Hadn't figured out anything related to what effects what and how level and spell level influence eachother yet).

So if they burn a level 1 spell slot at leve l1, they'd get a slow (15ft?) walking speed and a crappy vision (30ft?) OR slightly less crappy hearing (60ft?).
While burning a level 5 slot would give flight (30ft+?) and both sight and hearing (60-120ft?)

I wasn't sure on requiring concentration for it (probably would), but this would mean that as long as they have magic, they can always atleast do something.


That said, I really like the tethering to a person (or maybe an item) idea a lot as well. Feels very "I'm haunting this thing" as well.


Btw, all this said and done, I'm leaning towards this being a requirement for the Haunt spell as a whole, as it would also suffer from the "needs 2 concentration to do anything".
So maybe your solution gets added to the haunt spell as a whole and mine is a bonus to the class so it has more self-determination?

GalacticAxekick
2022-03-20, 07:17 PM
Oh, that's an interesting solution. That might work. This fixes both the "not related to the group" and the minimum required to be able to do things. [...] I really like the tethering to a person (or maybe an item) idea a lot as well. Feels very "I'm haunting this thing" as well. [...] I'm leaning towards this being a requirement for the Haunt spell as a whole, as it would also suffer from the "needs 2 concentration to do anything".Great! I added the Haunt Host effect to the Haunt spell!

Now a Poltergeist (aka a 1st level Revenant Soul) is not necessarily stuck in one spot, but can haunt a creature or object it saw at the moment of its (near) death. For a player who begins the game dead, this will likely be an object that the party can carry around (like the dagger that killed them or the crown they were wearing). For a player who casts this spell during the game, this will likely be a party member.

A Phantom (aka a 6th level Revenant Soul) will be able to borrow the senses of whoever it is haunting, or sense through whatever it is haunting. But because Haunt is a 5th level spell (learned at 9th level at earliest) they will still be stuck with their one host.

At 9th level, they will be able to jump from host to host by casting Haunt.

At 14th level, they will be able to dominate their host (might add an Animate Objects option for object hosts)


I had thought up a possible alternative solution, and I'm not sure which one I like more, so lemme post it here anyhow (for inspiration at a minimum).

I was thinking that you could give them a "Magical Motivation" type ability. Where they can burn a spellslot to give them both senses and some movement. Where the level of the spell slot and the level of the Sorcerer both have influence on what happens. (Hadn't figured out anything related to what effects what and how level and spell level influence eachother yet).I'm reluctant to let them burn spell slots to gain speeds or senses, because this eliminates the story element of a Poltergeist being mostly helpless and confused, and the mechanical puzzle of a player choosing spells specifically to compensate for his or her missing speeds, senses and abilities.

Loek
2022-03-21, 09:09 AM
I'm reluctant to let them burn spell slots to gain speeds or senses, because this eliminates the story element of a Poltergeist being mostly helpless and confused, and the mechanical puzzle of a player choosing spells specifically to compensate for his or her missing speeds, senses and abilities.

I think the thing to think about here is:

Is this whole sub-class just building up to be a regular poltergeist? (So basically, building to die?)
Or, is it someone who can co-opt some of those abilities and therefor is extra prepared when they do happen to die?


(Another way of looking at it: Is this class the way all poltergeists are made. Or is this class something that some people are more skilled in, that helps them do the poltergeisting?)


I guess this is partially my dislike of the "You picked thing X, now you must take A, B, C and D for your next 4 choices!" railroading. I'd like the class to be playable (if sub optimally) even if they don't do those specific things (or do them later).

GalacticAxekick
2022-03-21, 10:30 AM
(Another way of looking at it: Is this class the way all poltergeists are made. Or is this class something that some people are more skilled in, that helps them do the poltergeisting?)This subclass is how all ghosts are made. Its primarily concerned with characters who begin the game dead, but allows for characters who survived their near death experience.


I guess this is partially my dislike of the "You picked thing X, now you must take A, B, C and D for your next 4 choices!" railroading. I'd like the class to be playable (if sub optimally) even if they don't do those specific things (or do them later).I agree! I think part of the fun of playing a ghost should be choosing which spells you use to move, see and interact. You shouldn't be forced to take certain spells to function.

In a bit I'll take stock of which spells a ghost has available for those purposes and where they are lacking.

Loek
2022-03-21, 11:11 AM
This subclass is how all ghosts are made. Its primarily concerned with characters who begin the game dead, but allows for characters who survived their near death experience.

Then your standpoint makes a lot more sense.


I agree! I think part of the fun of playing a ghost should be choosing which spells you use to move, see and interact. You shouldn't be forced to take certain spells to function.

In a bit I'll take stock of which spells a ghost has available for those purposes and where they are lacking.

Yeah, an overview like that (and maybe a "extended spell list" to steal some extra options from other classes) will help us make a beter evaluation of the options (and if they need more).
Just remember the absurdly low amount of spells that a Sorcerer gets to pick.