Rebuke (The Shaman Spell)

[Zombulian]

So the OA Shaman has a spell on its list that at the time of printing was exclusive to it: Rebuke.
It is a 2nd Level Conjuration (Creation) spell that stuns a target on a failed Will save for 1d4+1 rounds.
There is another spell in the Spell Compendium also called Rebuke, but it isn’t listed as a Shaman spell because the SpC didn’t include any content for Shamans except a note at the beginning of the book stating that they could use the new domains presented.
The new Rebuke is also a 2nd Level spell, but it is now an Enchantment (Compulsion) with the [Fear, Mind-affecting] traits. This spell has a similar effect to the first, giving a dazed condition for one round and then shaken for 1 round/level (plus some other riders).

So I guess my question is, does this count as an update? The new spell of the same name has a similar effect, but it’s an entirely different school of magic, and is not explicitly a Shaman spell while the other is. Should an OA Shaman preparing Rebuke be preparing the SpC version?

[nedz]

The OA version is for 3.0; whilst the SpC version is 3.5.
There are also higher level versions of Rebuke in the SpC.

I think that they are different spells from different game systems for different classes.

[Luccan]

I think they're different enough there's an argument to be made the SpC Rebuke is not an update. And even if it is, if your table is fine with it I don't see a reason you can't use the old one

[loky1109]

OA updated to 3.5 in Dragon #318 and there are no updates for this spell.

[Tzardok]

I think I would consider the "new" Rebuke to be an upgrade or replacement for the "old" Rebuke. The old ones school doesn't make any sense to me, so it needs to be reworked, and the new one is similiar to be that rework.

[Blackhawk748]

I think I would consider the "new" Rebuke to be an upgrade or replacement for the "old" Rebuke. The old ones school doesn't make any sense to me, so it needs to be reworked, and the new one is similiar to be that rework.

The School is really the only part that doesn't make sense, the rest of the spell is pretty straightforward.

Id call them two different spells because Daze into Shaken is pretty different than stunning the target.

[Luccan]

The School is really the only part that doesn't make sense, the rest of the spell is pretty straightforward.

Id call them two different spells because Daze into Shaken is pretty different than stunning the target.

Also, it's not like spell schools aren't constantly called out for making little sense. Especially what should and shouldn't be Conjuration.

[DivineOnTheMind]

3.5 updates to spells obviously overrule them, even when they have very different scopes, like Polymorph Self (3.0) to Polymorph (3.5), but Rebuke (3.0) has so little in common with Rebuke (3.5) that they don't seem like updates to the same spell (their effects aren't all that different, but what I think is determinative are the class spell lists and spell schools).

[Darg]

Also, it's not like spell schools aren't constantly called out for making little sense. Especially what should and shouldn't be Conjuration.

*cough*orbs*cough*

[Biggus]

Range is different, duration is different, components are different, spell school is different, effect is different, who can cast it is different. It's not the same spell at all.

[Dimers]

If anything, the "Rebuke" line of spells in SC is an update for the "Nybor's" line featured in Magic of Faerun.

[Biggus]

If anything, the "Rebuke" line of spells in SC is an update for the "Nybor's" line featured in Magic of Faerun.

...and here is the correct answer. At the start of the SpC it lists the previous names of all the spells which now have new ones, and there it is: it's an update of Nybor's Gentle Reminder.

[Zombulian]

...and here is the correct answer. At the start of the SpC it lists the previous names of all the spells which now have new ones, and there it is: it's an update of Nybor's Gentle Reminder.

Oh wow, citations and everything! Cool.

[RedMage125]

If anything, the "Rebuke" line of spells in SC is an update for the "Nybor's" line featured in Magic of Faerun.

This is why I don't give the SpC a blatant "green light" when I run 3.5.

Faerun has a different yardstick of balance than core. Spells, feats, prestige classes...a lot of FR is more "high powered". And a good chunk of the SpC was "let's take all these FR spells, alter the names to remove Faerun specificity, and release it".

I only allow the SpC for the updated versions of spells found in non-FR sources. Also Revivify, because that spell is awesome. Unless I'm actually running a FR game, then the SpC is in.

[Zombulian]

This is why I don't give the SpC a blatant "green light" when I run 3.5.

Faerun has a different yardstick of balance than core. Spells, feats, prestige classes...a lot of FR is more "high powered". And a good chunk of the SpC was "let's take all these FR spells, alter the names to remove Faerun specificity, and release it".

I only allow the SpC for the updated versions of spells found in non-FR sources. Also Revivify, because that spell is awesome. Unless I'm actually running a FR game, then the SpC is in.

This is an odd chance to stand on that soapbox because the SpC version of Rebuke isn’t particularly good.

[RedMage125]

This is an odd chance to stand on that soapbox because the SpC version of Rebuke isn’t particularly good.

Sorry, it was more about how the SpC is "Forgotten Realms spells" than anything.