On the topic of constitution

[Teaguethebean]

The more I think about constitution the more I dislike it. Every single character has 14 constitution, or 16 for some fighters and barbarians. And to be honest I just don't like that narratively. Why is every single wizard as hearty as a paladin. (I mean when hitpoints aren't in question).
The constitution stat seemed to exist to allow for fighters and barbarians to have even more hitpoints but it seems to more be about every caster dumping strength as well as intelligence or charisma.
I have been long considering cutting it from the game. This could be easily achieved by rolling everything constitution does into strength. This frees up strength characters and also combats the issue of everyone and their mother having an 8 strength. Furthermore this lead to characters who are unquestionably supposed to be athletic such as rogues, monks, rangers, and even most hilldwarfs I see to completely shaft strength making their supposedly athletic character weaker than a commoner. Obviously some stuff would need to be shifted around such as pointbuy stats and some saving throw proficiencies but I honestly don't see any real downside balance wise.
If I am missing something and this would split the game in two I would love to hear what you have to say.

[Syjyl4488]

You are forgetting that there are creatures out there that can drain strength, as well as spell effects and traps that require con saves…granted it could all be converted to affect strength, but now chars that shine as str based chars are vying with spellcasters for the same stat…could lead to some interesting builds but still…could be a potential problem

[Schwann145]

Everyone has a decent Con (and Wis) because Con saves (and Wis saves) are very important and meaningful.

In other words, yes, it's lame. It's gamey. It's min-maxy. It's very anti-character.
But it's also not going anywhere until the game fundamentally shifts away from this, which it definitely won't.

As for scrubbing the stat and shifting it all onto Str? Eh, give it a shot! Let us know how it goes. :)

[Durazno]

It makes narrative sense to me that adventurers of every type would have high con scores in common - you've gotta take hits, you've gotta hike for days on end, you've gotta stay alert on your shift at night, and so forth. There could be lots of wizards with low con out there, but they'd be a lot less likely to march into the Lost Mines or whatever than someone who wouldn't get winded on the way there.

That said, yeah, it is unsatisfying as a game design element, isn't it? I'm not sure if rolling it into strength is the way to go, but I'll keep watching to see what possibilities spring up.

[Hytheter]

I don't see a narrative/anti-character problem. Anyone who's going to make it as an adventurer needs meet a certain threshold of fitness; it is after all an activity that requires a lot of walking and hiking, nevermind the active armed combat. A wizard with 8 con is an NPC, not a hero. Edit: Duranzo ninja'd me

That said, it does seem kind of pointless. I think you could combine Strength and Constitution without too much trouble.

[tenshiakodo]

it is strange to have an ability score that has such dramatic negative effects if you don't put points into it. I mean, a bad score anywhere will come to bite you in the rump in the long run, but Constitution has three functions-

"Constitution saves to avoid serious conditions/Constitution checks to avoid fatigue or running out of breath"

"More hit points"

"Concentration checks"

Note that while the first 2 are of importance to any character, all three are important to a caster, making it more than just a "survival ability".

[Frogreaver]

My 8 Con rogue was a blast to play.

[Leon]

Why should a wizard be any less "hearty" than a paladin

[animorte]

This reminds me of something. I might get an earful for this, but oh well...

My wife (having introduced me and me friends/family) to D&D and was interested in playing the My Little Pony ttrpg (D&D equivalent). Called Tails of Equestria. A much simpler kid-friendly format with much fewer overall options for customization obviously. Anywho...

Within, there are 3 main stats as follows:
- Body: which is basically Strength, Stamina, and what Constitution does for our martial classes.
- Mind: which is basically Intelligence, Wisdom, and what Constitution does for our casters.
- Charm: which is basically just our non-combat Charisma (and very pony-like)

Then there's Stamina = Body + Mind = total health

If you're martial, you might start with a D10 Body and a probably D6 Mind
If you're caster, you might start with a D6 Body and a D8 Mind

Then of course other starting things can modify this very similar to our own character building here.

It's just a format that eliminates the complexity in order to accomplish the same thing that you're trying to do here, which is basically simplifying the stats in a way that clearly separates what you need to make a martial class effective vs what you need to make a caster class effective.

[Teaguethebean]

Why should a wizard be any less "hearty" than a paladin

To me it feels like a wizard was always meant to be frail, I feel like the idea of wizard being just as hearty doesn't much play into the fantasy of both classes.

[Witty Username]

I feel like this is more an issue with point by. When you always have your 16, 14, 14 spead con is not that interesting.

Then again Ad&d had an interesting solution, Con bonuses to HP had a cap for non-martials. So beyond 16 was a bit of a waste and enforced the squishy archetypes a bit.

[Luccan]

So, if Str just has the benefits of Con it won't actually force any casters to be less hardy. They'll just be less charismatic or wise, while also being weightlifters. Low HP classes love bonus HP and casters love making Concentration checks. Also, this hugely boosts the value of Str saves, since they're also covering Con saves now. I'm not gonna tell you not to do it, but I have some thoughts on making it work.

1. Bonus HP doesn't come from Ability Scores. I'd start using Average HP, with the changing that anyone who isn't a 1-9 caster has their average HP boosted by 2 (so instead of the standard 6 HP per level for a d10 class, they get 8). That'll keep anyone that's gonna do melee without magic backing them up happy enough, as well as the half- and third- casters, without directly penalizing casters.

2. I would make Concentration checks modified by Half-Proficiency bonus instead of Strength if you were to do this. This would prevent the "every Wizard lifts" problem I mentioned above. Maybe let Sorcerers use their full Proficiency Bonus, since a Con save proficiency on a full caster is actually meaningful design.

3. Obviously the Barbarian's Shirtlessness, er, Unarmored Defense will probably need to move to Dex+Str, but be on the look out for other Con-based abilities.

4. If you still use racial attribute modifiers, as many do, you'll need to shift those around. Which could present a problem. Many races with +Con are already +Str, so you'll need to get creative if this applies to your group. Also, gnomes, goblins, and stout halflings can now lift. Gnomes more that the average human.

5. Don't fix saves... Ok, obviously you need to fix saves. What I mean is, don't freak out if a class has 2 strong saves now. Most of them will be warriors, who could honestly use the help defending against magic. I would say switch all Con Save Proficiencies to the improved Strength or to Dexterity, based on class themes and whether or not they already have Strength saves.

[Teaguethebean]

I feel like this is more an issue with point by. When you always have your 16, 14, 14 spead con is not that interesting.

Then again Ad&d had an interesting solution, Con bonuses to HP had a cap for non-martials. So beyond 16 was a bit of a waste and enforced the squishy archetypes a bit.

I feel like a cap of even 14 wouldn't really change how con was treated. Everyone has 14 con anyway

[subtledoctor]

The answer of course is to have players actually roll stats like they did When I Was Your Age.

[animorte]

Bonus HP doesn't come from Ability Scores. I'd start using Average HP, with the changing that anyone who isn't a 1-9 caster has their average HP boosted by 2 (so instead of the standard 6 HP per level for a d10 class, they get 8). That'll keep anyone that's gonna do melee without magic backing them up happy enough, as well as the half- and third- casters, without directly penalizing casters.

Essentially this right here is your solution. Take the base HP of each class.

Give everyone the average health boost for each level up with the mods below:
D12 and D10: +2 hp per level
D8: +1 hp per level
D6: +0 hp per level

Continue to use Constitution saves as they currently are. Literally all you need to do is modify health in order to accomplish the tankiness that you desire.

[Luccan]

The answer of course is to have players actually roll stats like they did When I Was Your Age.

Rolling stats straight down the line only has the advantage of not creating the OPs issue on purpose. You still get the high Con wizards, it's just an accident now

[Teaguethebean]

Bonus HP doesn't come from Ability Scores. I'd start using Average HP, with the changing that anyone who isn't a 1-9 caster has their average HP boosted by 2 (so instead of the standard 6 HP per level for a d10 class, they get 8). That'll keep anyone that's gonna do melee without magic backing them up happy enough, as well as the half- and third- casters, without directly penalizing casters.


I found your input largely helpful but this seems like a poor idea as it makes their even less of a reason to have constitution on any class but a caster.

[animorte]

I found your input largely helpful but this seems like a poor idea as it makes their even less of a reason to have constitution on any class but a caster.

I very much disagree as it would still apply to saving throws. The two highest demands for saves are Constitution and Wisdom.

[Luccan]

I found your input largely helpful but this seems like a poor idea as it makes their even less of a reason to have constitution on any class but a caster.

This prevents Rangers, Rogues, and Monks from getting pushed into being more Muli-Attribute Dependent than everyone else/than they already are in the case of Ranger and Monk. Also, the goal is to block out Con as a default good stat for every character, right? What good is it to replace that with Strength as default on everyone?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

To me the root cause of all this is the lack of benefit for other ability scores, particularly Str and Int. If there were more benefits of these, say more skill proficiencies or languages for high Int or not being able to substitute Dex for so many Str rolls, players would have more motivation to vary ability scores.

[DarknessEternal]

To me the root cause of all this is the lack of benefit for other ability scores, particularly Str and Int. If there were more benefits of these, say more skill proficiencies or languages for high Int or not being able to substitute Dex for so many Str rolls, players would have more motivation to vary ability scores.

Give this man a game to design.

[Witty Username]

I feel like str vs dex is as much a misunderstanding of ability checks as a rules problem, but definitely an issue.
Step 1, no dex doesn't work with climbing.

[Pex]

I don't see a spellcaster having a lot of hit points as a sin against gaming. I'm fine with warriors having more, but spellcasters do not deserve to die when they get hit once or twice. Make hit points be d6 + 2, d8 + 3, d10 + 4, and d12 + 4 then don't worry about it. However, spellcasters care about Constitution because it matters for Concentration, so they want the CO for more than just the hit points. Therefore, they are not doing it wrong putting a 14 in CO, so might as well not change anything.

If you move everything CO does to ST you just get bodybuilder spellcasters. You could move Concentration to the casting stat, but PCs want hit points so the muscles remain. Players are not wrong for wanting hit points.

[stoutstien]

As a DM you have two ways of addressing this without serious homebrewing or game changes.

The first is just making sure there is more of an even distribution of check and save types. Make sure you address intensity as well as frequency when you do this prevent wisdom saves from just being more important than intelligence saves. The same principle should apply to strength or dexterity versus Constitution.

The second thing you can do is not include the optional rules for feats and multi-classing. This might seem like an extreme move for some tables but I guarantee you'll see higher Constitution values.

[Tanarii]

I've seen some players choose to go with a Con 12, in standard array. But they usually raised it later, because also it was a no feats campaign.

But yes, I think it distorts a decent difference between squishees and non. When it's two SAD classes, d6 vs d10, instead of 4 vs 6 hp / level (50% advantage), it's 6 vs 8 or 7 vs 9.

For SAD + Con vs MAD, it's even worse. For example, conceptually design-wise, a Sorcerer or Wizard shouldn't be on par with a Monk at level 8 and Paladin or Ranger at 16.

Either the game needs to cap bonus hit points for non warriors from Con like the old days, or scale the bonus with HD, or just drop the bonus entirely

[kazaryu]

The more I think about constitution the more I dislike it. Every single character has 14 constitution, or 16 for some fighters and barbarians. And to be honest I just don't like that narratively. Why is every single wizard as hearty as a paladin. (I mean when hitpoints aren't in question).
The constitution stat seemed to exist to allow for fighters and barbarians to have even more hitpoints but it seems to more be about every caster dumping strength as well as intelligence or charisma.
I have been long considering cutting it from the game. This could be easily achieved by rolling everything constitution does into strength. This frees up strength characters and also combats the issue of everyone and their mother having an 8 strength. Furthermore this lead to characters who are unquestionably supposed to be athletic such as rogues, monks, rangers, and even most hilldwarfs I see to completely shaft strength making their supposedly athletic character weaker than a commoner. Obviously some stuff would need to be shifted around such as pointbuy stats and some saving throw proficiencies but I honestly don't see any real downside balance wise.
If I am missing something and this would split the game in two I would love to hear what you have to say.

so...first off, lets tackle the precept. 'ever single character has 14 or 16 constitution.... this is...false. optimized characters tend to have 14-16 constitution, but there are plenty of PC's running around with constitution as low as 8. you just have to expand your FoV.

as for your solution...i don't think it'd work the way you think. if you combine str with con then all that changes is now 'every single character' will have a 14-16 str. it does nothing to alleviate the homogeny. you'll still wizards that are just as tough as paladins, but now they're also almost as strong as barbarians.

looking at it from the prospect of the fiction...rogues and monks (in particular) are not 'meant' to be unquestionably strong characters. they're meant to be fit, sure, but they're also meant to be the fast/agile characters, that are deliberately not super strong. now, i understand, IRL there isn't a meaningful difference there. you need to be strong to be fit, at least to an extent. but its fantasy, realism isn't high on the priorities.

IMO, if you want to increase the variability of ability scores across classes, what you need to do is give each ability score something that it contributes. the obvious example being that, in the past, intelligence granted more skill points. things like that. otherwise you're really not REALLY changing anything.

[Segev]

If you want to encourage characters who you think should not have high Constitution to dump it, you need to make having low Constitution less punishing for them. Ways to do this might include: having a proficiency available for Concentration, which casters are allowed to pick up; having spells which grant temporary hp be more generous, or scale better, or even flat-out replace your Constitution for purposes of hp calculation for the duration of the spell; have features which permit substitution of another stat for Constitution for any of the key things it requires; grant proficiency in Constitution saving throws more generously.

All of these are potentially very powerful, and so should eat into other resources. But in so doing, they encourage just having a moderate-to-high Constitution instead of spending those resources. Or, worse, if they stack with your Constitution, to have both, which leads to power creep and damage to bounded accuracy. The "replacement" mechanics don't do that, at least, but have their own problems with creating more min-maxing away from Constitution into other stats. Something along the lines of how barkskin works for AC might work, but is awkward to word.

Importantly, these are best done not as blanket rules, but piece-by-piece for each class, race, or other group you feel have, in general, too high a Constitution score in practice.

[loki_ragnarock]

The more I think about constitution the more I dislike it. Every single character has 14 constitution, or 16 for some fighters and barbarians. And to be honest I just don't like that narratively. Why is every single wizard as hearty as a paladin. (I mean when hitpoints aren't in question).
That's a big caveat, right there.

The constitution stat seemed to exist to allow for fighters and barbarians to have even more hitpoints but it seems to more be about every caster dumping strength as well as intelligence or charisma.
Well, the hit dice are more to do with the more hit points thing, so far as class is concerned.

I have been long considering cutting it from the game. This could be easily achieved by rolling everything constitution does into strength. This frees up strength characters and also combats the issue of everyone and their mother having an 8 strength. Furthermore this lead to characters who are unquestionably supposed to be athletic such as rogues, monks, rangers, and even most hilldwarfs I see to completely shaft strength making their supposedly athletic character weaker than a commoner. Obviously some stuff would need to be shifted around such as pointbuy stats and some saving throw proficiencies but I honestly don't see any real downside balance wise.
It's what they did in 7th Sea. I like 7th Sea. It's a different system though, with different assumptions.

In 5e it wouldn't be a drag and drop proposition. You'd be trading higher con characters (inherently passive) for higher strength characters (inherently active).

Which is to say, Con lets you survive the world, Strength lets you effect the world. Wizards with a strength 14 instead of a con 14 will be just at good at getting punched in the face... except they'd also be alot better at bend bars/lift gates. And that would be a much more pronounced tread into burly warrior territory than just some hit points.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, just removing Con and adding it to Str will just make the game trend toward Strength as their secondary.

The issue, as I see it, is that classes in this game are pretty SAD. Wizards only really need Int. Therefore when played by people who know the game, the Wizard will max Int then shore up their defenses, which is Con.

If you want to change that, then classes would need firm secondary or even tertiary attributes.

If, for example, Wizards need Int for their spells saves and damage, while Wisdom was how many spells they could cast per day. Or maybe they had subclasses that heavily incentives Str, Dex, Wis, or Cha then we’d see Con get dropped down otherwise.

[MoiMagnus]

I have been long considering cutting it from the game. This could be easily achieved by rolling everything constitution does into strength.

The unfortunate side effect is that suddenly casters want to have a high strength. Constitution was already weird enough, but the optimal wizard having high Str goes against the theme of med fan I think.

IMO, you should push everything to strength except concentration, which should be on INT (probably together with some nerf to the Wizard to compensate). Sure, it changes the theme of concentration from "you're bulky enough to not be bothered" to "you're focussed enough to not be bothered", but I think that's fine.

[heavyfuel]

I challenge the notion that everyone has a 14 or 16 in Con. Archers, especially Rangers and Fighters, are perfectly with a 12 or 10 in Con, they just usually end up with more Con than that because they are so Dex-SAD.

However, everytime I've seen someone roll an archer that is also the party-face (usually a Rogue), they all had less than 14 Con


It makes narrative sense to me that adventurers of every type would have high con scores in common - you've gotta take hits, you've gotta hike for days on end, you've gotta stay alert on your shift at night, and so forth. There could be lots of wizards with low con out there, but they'd be a lot less likely to march into the Lost Mines or whatever than someone who wouldn't get winded on the way there.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[RSP]

First, I definitely agree that it’s not an “all players” thing: I’ve seen plenty of Con 12 and lower characters in 5e.

Second, as mentioned upthread, it makes sense that people who adventure and fight monsters for a living would have in-game what Con represents on the character sheet.

This actually is more true of casters as Concentration is so important to them. Would anyone want to adventure with the Wizard who relies on Concentration spells, but is really bad at keeping their focus?

[Leon]

To me it feels like a wizard was always meant to be frail, I feel like the idea of wizard being just as hearty doesn't much play into the fantasy of both classes.

So you like the trope of frail bookish wizard and think everyone should be the same

[Teaguethebean]

So you like the trope of frail bookish wizard and think everyone should be the same

A little scathing but perhaps you are right.

[Sigreid]

I don't personally find it to be odd that the vast majority of people who voluntarily engage in dangerous adventures would in general be in above average fitness/toughness.

Adventuring:

- Walking long distances
- Exposure to diseases and toxins
- People/creatures trying to kill you
- Other physically taxing activities

Adventuring sounds like a fitness routine in and of itself.

[Schwann145]

Not all adventurers do so voluntarily. Plenty of them are thrust into it via circumstance.

[Sigreid]

Not all adventurers do so voluntarily. Plenty of them are thrust into it via circumstance.

Might be true for the first adventure, but when you make a carrier of it; you're a certain kind of person.

[AdAstra]

People who aren't very durable die when they get hit a lot. Adventuring involves getting hit a lot. An 8 Con adventurer can be done (and it does happen in my experience), nothing prevents it, but it's not exactly a stretch that they'll die more often. If you want an average, or even particularly frail, person forced into a life of adventure, you can do it just fine.

Different Hit Die between classes already represent the relative frailness of classes pretty well in terms of durability (I'd personally make minor adjustments to them, but nothing significant). A 14 Con Wizard remains easier to squish (in terms of HP anyway) than a 14 Con Fighter. The only respect in which they're the same is in saving throws and the occasional check, mostly relating to exhaustion. Given the sorts of all-nighters many academics pursue, I don't find it all that unreasonable that a Wizard will frequently measure up to martials in terms of being able to shrug off pain, exhaustion, etc.

If a solution is still sought, could have more mechanics based off of Hit Die (For multiclassed characters, could probably use whichever type of Hit Die you have the most of). Up the default difficulty of Concentration saves (and the math for more difficult ones as well), and have Hit Die be added to the roll. That way a Paladin is better at Concentrating than the Sorcerer. I would not be opposed to more uses for Hit Dice.

[Kane0]

Within, there are 3 main stats as follows:
- Body: which is basically Strength, Stamina, and what Constitution does for our martial classes.
- Mind: which is basically Intelligence, Wisdom, and what Constitution does for our casters.
- Charm: which is basically just our non-combat Charisma (and very pony-like)

Then there's Stamina = Body + Mind = total health

I like it.

I cant help but feel like we can squeeze in a fourth though, like spirit or luck or splitting body between might and agility or mind into intellect and intuition.

[Segev]

To be fair, 5e is perhaps the most forgiving edition for low con characters, especially regarding hp. Yes, they die more easily in a last-blow because their "knocked to negative max hp" threshold is lower, but that's harder to pull off than you might think.

In practice, they just tend to be knocked to 0 hp more often. As long as the party is assiduous about stabilizing them or getting them a 1 hp heal to get them on their feet and not-dying, they can remain alive and survive the adventure much more easily than editions where -10 hp was the limit.

[Ortho]

Weirdly, people don't tend to be too keen on their characters dying.

It doesn't matter if it's called Constitution, or Strength, or Vitality, or Armor Class - as long as there's a stat that directly increases your character's chances of survival, people will want to increase it.

[Frogreaver]

However, everytime I've seen someone roll an archer that is also the party-face (usually a Rogue), they all had less than 14 Con

My 8 Con Rogue was a blast to play.

[Tanarii]

To be fair, 5e is perhaps the most forgiving edition for low con characters, especially regarding hp. Yes, they die more easily in a last-blow because their "knocked to negative max hp" threshold is lower, but that's harder to pull off than you might think.

In practice, they just tend to be knocked to 0 hp more often. As long as the party is assiduous about stabilizing them or getting them a 1 hp heal to get them on their feet and not-dying, they can remain alive and survive the adventure much more easily than editions where -10 hp was the limit.
That sounds like a recipe for the rest of the party complaining about how many resources you're unnecessarily burning up due to obviously suboptimal stat choices.

Clearly the correct thing to do so players taking a Con below 14 properly face the consequences of their choices is to let them bleed and stabilize them after the fight is over. And maybe prorate their combat XP so they only get the fraction of XP equal to rounds they stayed upright out of total. :smallamused:

[Hytheter]

My 8 Con Rogue was a blast to play.

Yeah man, we heard you the first time...


That sounds like a recipe for the rest of the party complaining about how many resources you're unnecessarily burning up due to obviously suboptimal stat choices.

In a perverse way, low HP can actually be considered more efficient in terms of healing resources. See, when you get reduced to zero HP any excess damage is wasted instead of subtracting from the party's HP and thus needing to be restored. The less starting HP you have, the more easily and often you are knocked down, the more of this overkill damage you are absorbing.

Example: You have 20HP and the enemy does 15 damage per hit. If he hits you twice, you only need 20HP of healing to be fully restored. If he instead hits your 40HP friend, he'll require 30HP worth of healing.

This effect is part of what makes pop-up healing so effective.

:smallbiggrin:

Of course, it would be highly charitable to take this notion and run with it as a defense of low-HP characters. Rather than the amount of healing resources being burned up, you should worry about the actions spent using those resources, nevermind the actions you waste lying in a pool of your own blood. :smallamused:

[Frogreaver]

Granting hit dice based on con mod could be interesting.

Tier 1 - 1 * Con Mod hit dice
Tier 2 - 2 * Con Mod hit dice
Tier 3 - 3 * Con Mod hit dice
Tier 4 - 4 * Con Mod hit dice

Boost class hp by +2 per level.

If one wanted to do away with Con being as important this could be a good start.

Maybe also move concentration to the casting stat so that no caster benefits more there than the others.


Yeah man, we heard you the first time...

Hey man, No need to be that way about it...

[diplomancer]

How about this:

Concentration saves are their own mechanic. You get to add your spellcasting ability modifier (if you have more than one, I.e, you're multiclassed, you add the highest) and any general bonuses to saves, but NOT proficiency (give Sorcs and Artificers a choice for their one "big" save).

In a way, it's a boost to casters, but, for a game with feats or multiclassing, they can't get proficiency in saves to auto-pass Concentration saves. And secondarily casters might prefer to invest in other stats instead of Constitution.

[rel]

I think you'd just see lot's of high strength characters instead of high con.

I like the suggestion of evening out the importance of the saves. If strength and charisma are just as important in terms of saves as con then dumping them for a few more HP isn't so obvious.

Adding more ability check options to the traditionally underused abilities might also be helpful.

I also liked the suggestion of capping HP bonuses for certain classes although you would probably have to not use the multi-classing optional rule.
Another option would be to give each class or maybe even each subclass a fixed bonus per level to HP (e.g. fighter +3, rogue +1, wizard -1, etc) the values could be calibrated to reflect their traditional archetype, expected role, relative power or whatever.

And if you want to preserve the option of an atypically tough or frail character (like the previously mentioned 8 con rogue) you could create tough and frail as feats or perhaps optional modifiers to add to a character during creation like backgrounds or maybe even as part of certain backgrounds or attached to certain races.

These modifiers would crucially NOT mess with HP but instead penalise or boost minor things like ability checks, very specific saves and so on.

[KorvinStarmast]

The more I think about constitution the more I dislike it. Every single character has 14 constitution, or 16 for some fighters and barbarians. And to be honest I just don't like that narratively. My 12 Con Sorcerer (Shadow) called and would like to have a quiet word with you.

I have been long considering cutting it from the game. Then rebuild the game from the ground up, given how many CON saves there are in the game.

Then again Ad&d had an interesting solution, Con bonuses to HP had a cap for non-martials. So beyond 16 was a bit of a waste and enforced the squishy archetypes a bit. AD&D also didn't have stat increases with level. :smallwink: Nor point buy.

I don't see a spellcaster having a lot of hit points as a sin against gaming. This also.

I don't personally find it to be odd that the vast majority of people who voluntarily engage in dangerous adventures would in general be in above average fitness/toughness.

Adventuring:

- Walking long distances
- Exposure to diseases and toxins
- People/creatures trying to kill you
- Other physically taxing activities

Adventuring sounds like a fitness routine in and of itself. Sleeping on the ground in the cold, also known as camping, before Leomund's Tiny hut gets picked up.

Weirdly, people don't tend to be too keen on their characters dying. Pshaw!

That sounds like a recipe for the rest of the party complaining about how many resources you're unnecessarily burning up due to obviously suboptimal stat choices. Clearly the correct thing to do so players taking a Con below 14 properly face the consequences of their choices is to let them bleed and stabilize them after the fight is over. And maybe prorate their combat XP so they only get the fraction of XP equal to rounds they stayed upright out of total. :smallamused: *chuckle*

[Sorinth]

Seems like the simple answer is to make concentration checks either Constitution or Wisdom, player's choice. Sure people will still want Con for the HP, but since most casters have Wisdom save proficiency they will probably want to focus on that over Constitution.