whats the point of blowguns/darts

[oogaboogagoblin]

recently one of my players wanted to make a magic blowgun, and since I homebrew in my spare time, i helped him out, while we were making it I learned that blowguns have awful range, the loading property, and worst of all one damage per attack. i get that its flavoured for stealth kills but RAW dont actually give it any advantage in that department.does it have some hidden advantage that i cant see?

[PhantomSoul]

I've always heard it as being about administering poisons, mainly!

[strangebloke]

They're silent, cheap, easily concealed weapons. Great for an assassin

[nickl_2000]

You can also sneak attack with them if you have Rogue levels. That being said, you would need some way to get proficiency (although I would let the assassin subclass have it for free).

[Schwann145]

Consider them artifacts of a more deadly past edition.

What PhantomSoul said above is generally true, but since 5e has made poisons so incredibly weak and/or hard to administer (usually via very low DCs) it's basically never worth it to worry about a blowgun.

[JackPhoenix]

You can't knock people unconscious with ranged attacks, so having a way to deliver something like drow poison at the distance that won't kill the target through raw damage anyway may be useful.

[olskool]

recently one of my players wanted to make a magic blowgun, and since I homebrew in my spare time, i helped him out, while we were making it I learned that blowguns have awful range, the loading property, and worst of all one damage per attack. i get that its flavoured for stealth kills but RAW dont actually give it any advantage in that department.does it have some hidden advantage that i cant see?

This guy has killed deer, boar, and even a black bear with a blowgun. His effective range is between 10 and 20 yards, so 30 to 60 ft. I guess you could set the effective range based on the shooter's CON score but we are also talking about a LONG blowgun (around 3ft in length).

Here's the video of his bear hunt. Please be advised that this video MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME as it shows him hunting that black bear.

https://youtu.be/euf2kMefMYg

[Easy e]

This guy has killed deer, boar, and even a black bear with a blowgun. His effective range is between 10 and 20 yards, so 30 to 60 ft. I guess you could set the effective range based on the shooter's CON score but we are also talking about a LONG blowgun (around 3ft in length).

Here's the video of his bear hunt. Please be advised that this video MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME as it shows him hunting that black bear.

https://youtu.be/euf2kMefMYg

Wow, that guy is a real hunter. That even puts archery hunters to shame. What's next, hunter's using handmade atlatls?


As for the topic, the ides is/was to deliver poison attacks. Now, I think it is there for completeness. Plus, they could be fun to give to enemies to the PCs as well.

Imagine volley firing blowguns from the darkness.

[stoutstien]

They're good weapons to give NPCs if you want to be able to spam attacks on the party without risks of ill-time critical Hits.

[Chronos]

Quoth olskool:

I guess you could set the effective range based on the shooter's CON score but we are also talking about a LONG blowgun (around 3ft in length).
No, that's actually a SHORT blowgun. More typical weaponized blowguns are 5 or 6 feet long. Which also puts serious limits on the concealability strangebloke mentioned.

Mechanically, anything you can do with a blowgun, you can do better with daggers. Fixing them doesn't just require being clever; it requires a houserule (of some form or another).

[Dr.Samurai]

The point is to give the illusion that martials have interesting decisions to make :smalltongue:.

[Elder_Basilisk]

It's tempting to look at any non-optimal weapon/armor and ask, "what's the point?" But that's the wrong way to look at it. If your players are poling a boat through the mistmarsh, they should have to keep a sharp lookout for lizardmen with poisoned blowdarts, turtle-shell shields, and obsidian studded greatclubs. If the lizardmen use hand crossbows and normal steel greatswords, that should mean they've been trading with more technologically advanced groups.

Likewise, if your characters are exploring an ancient tomb in totally not fantasy Greece, they should come across undead hoplites in ancient bronze breastplates rather than chainmail. And if those things aren't as effective as the equipment available to PCs, there's nothing wrong with that.

Blowguns are for characters that should use blowguns. They probably shouldn't be optimal for most characters.

[Easy e]

It's tempting to look at any non-optimal weapon/armor and ask, "what's the point?" But that's the wrong way to look at it. If your players are poling a boat through the mistmarsh, they should have to keep a sharp lookout for lizardmen with poisoned blowdarts, turtle-shell shields, and obsidian studded greatclubs. If the lizardmen use hand crossbows and normal steel greatswords, that should mean they've been trading with more technologically advanced groups.

Likewise, if your characters are exploring an ancient tomb in totally not fantasy Greece, they should come across undead hoplites in ancient bronze breastplates rather than chainmail. And if those things aren't as effective as the equipment available to PCs, there's nothing wrong with that.

Blowguns are for characters that should use blowguns. They probably shouldn't be optimal for most characters.


^^^^^^^^^ - This guy gets it!

[Dr.Samurai]

Except you can take a breasplate from Greece, and wear it on your travels anywhere else and it will be effective. You can take that hand crossbow from the lizardfolk and bring it with you wherever you go and it will be effective.

The blowgun, on the other hand, not so much. So no, doesn't track.

[kazaryu]

Except you can take a breasplate from Greece, and wear it on your travels anywhere else and it will be effective. You can take that hand crossbow from the lizardfolk and bring it with you wherever you go and it will be effective.

The blowgun, on the other hand, not so much. So no, doesn't track.

not every bit of loot that can be looted needs to be useful. in fact, not every encounter needs to have useful loot for the party, but even if it did, there are plenty of things you could give the party that aren't *just* the weapons/armor their dead enemies were using.

digging deeper, even your precept is wrong. a hand crossbow is going to be effectively as useless unless you're specc'd to use it...in which case you probably already have one. similar is true for the breastplate, although to a lesser degree. so...yes, it does, in fact, track.

[Dr.Samurai]

not every bit of loot that can be looted needs to be useful. in fact, not every encounter needs to have useful loot for the party, but even if it did, there are plenty of things you could give the party that aren't *just* the weapons/armor their dead enemies were using.

digging deeper, even your precept is wrong. a hand crossbow is going to be effectively as useless unless you're specc'd to use it...in which case you probably already have one. similar is true for the breastplate, although to a lesser degree. so...yes, it does, in fact, track.
How does a character “spec” for a blowgun? The OP is asking why the weapon sucks and the response is “some weapons belong in certain settings”. This is not an answer.

[Sorinth]

It's not really a PC weapon, there are a bunch of basically weak weapons that exist just because they exist in real life. There are plenty of reasons for an NPC to use a blowgun, they just don't really lineup for PCs.

That said if you wanted to make it something unique, maybe double down on the stealth aspect and don't have attacking with a blowgun break stealth. The target gets the general direction but that's all.

[Leon]

To provide options for equipping things with more than just what's "optimal" because that word and its inherited mindset is the cause of a great many problems within RPGs. Someone somewhere will have found it to be exactly what they needed for their character/NPC/flying green octagon.

Makes no thematic sense for a tribe of lizardmen to be using a technically complex miniature crossbow that will foul up and degrade rapidly in usefulness in a swamp where its routinely taken underwater, similarly they might have the means and knowledge to extract the venom of the blue green barking toad and a mere scratch can leave a prey creature paralyzed. Darts similarly simple means for simple needs.

[Damon_Tor]

A blowgun can be used as a snorkel in a pinch. No other weapon has that functionality.

Edit: I was going to say it's cheap, but then I looked and it costs 10 gp. The same as a short sword? REALLY? Like, I get the interior needs to be bored straight and smooth and that takes some expertise and labor, but 10 gp? Come on guys.

And why is it a martial weapon, implying a need for training, while the sling is simple, implying it's easy to use? Having tried both weapons (my dad actually had a manufactured blowgun when I was growing up. In retrospect I have no idea why) I can assure you that the opposite is true. Slings are among the most difficult weapons to use, while blowguns are extremely intuitive.

Come to think if it, swap the blowgun to simple and the sling to martial and reduce the blowgun cost to 1gp and I think most of my quibbles about the two weapons would be resolved.

[SharkForce]

A blowgun can be used as a snorkel in a pinch. No other weapon has that functionality.

some hoopaks can be used as snorkels actually, iirc :)

[JellyPooga]

A blowgun can be used as a snorkel in a pinch. No other weapon has that functionality.

Or as a straw.
No-one would suspect you're carrying magic scrolls in your blowgun either. Or beer. Ooh! Or bees. That could come as quite a surprise if you thought you had beer in there, though.
Put some rice in it and stop up the ends and you have a rain stick? The perfect gift.
Put a lens in either end and you could be looking through your very own ginormous telescope.

The possibilities are endless. What can a sword do, huh? Cut things? Whoop-di-doo.

[Damon_Tor]

.What's next, hunter's using handmade atlatls?

Do you think that's not a thing?

[Dr.Samurai]

No one is suggesting that lizardfolk should use hand crossbows lol.

I can literally play a lizardfolk, from the swamp, that has trained in the use of blowguns and has been using them throughout his entire life as a warrior in the tribe.

The moment I become a player character, I can't utilize Extra Attack with it. I can't utilize Piercer with it. I could use Sharpshooter, which means I can take a -5 penalty on my attack rolls so that my 1 single attack can deal 11 damage.

There is no reason for this. It's not like real life people can fire a crossbow half a dozen times in 6 seconds, but in D&D they can. I thought we didn't concern ourselves with the game being a simulator.

Unless we have an opportunity to condescend I guess... :smallconfused:

[Damon_Tor]

If you wanted to shoot two blowgun darts in a round, simply hold two blowguns, one in each hand. Shoot one, then the other. On the next round you drop one, reload the other with your free hand, then draw a third, already loaded blowgun from your pocket. This is a highly advanced tactic, and may result in more than ten damage every round, so check with your DM to make sure he's okay with this kind of power in his campaign.

[Dr.Samurai]

If you wanted to shoot two blowgun darts in a round, simply hold two blowguns, one in each hand. Shoot one, then the other. On the next round you drop one, reload the other with your free hand, then draw a third, already loaded blowgun from your pocket. This is a highly advanced tactic, and may result in more than ten damage every round, so check with your DM to make sure he's okay with this kind of power in his campaign.
ULTIMATE POWAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!

:smallamused:

[MisterD]

I have a character that uses darts "re-flavored as playing cards" It took down the BBEG. (With lots of shots) but he had my net on him, so I had advantage. Damage = +2 archer and +3 DEX (1D4+5 per dart) Next ASI I plan on getting Sharpshooter so 1D4+15 per shot With martial superiority Toss Maneuver 2 attacks 3 with Surge. 45 damage before rolling weapon damage. Not Bad. (I am aware for Sharpshooter I will be attacking with no bonus to hit.)

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's tempting to look at any non-optimal weapon/armor and ask, "what's the point?" But that's the wrong way to look at it. If your players are poling a boat through the mistmarsh, they should have to keep a sharp lookout for lizardmen with poisoned blowdarts, turtle-shell shields, and obsidian studded greatclubs. If the lizardmen use hand crossbows and normal steel greatswords, that should mean they've been trading with more technologically advanced groups.

Likewise, if your characters are exploring an ancient tomb in totally not fantasy Greece, they should come across undead hoplites in ancient bronze breastplates rather than chainmail. And if those things aren't as effective as the equipment available to PCs, there's nothing wrong with that.

Blowguns are for characters that should use blowguns. They probably shouldn't be optimal for most characters.

And war picks exist for duergar. And hide armor (note there are no +x hide or padded or splint entries on the DMG tables) for tribal warriors and "savages".

I fully agree.

[Leon]

No one is suggesting that lizardfolk should use hand crossbows lol.

Hmm, im sure someone said that a lizardfolk might have one... oh look its you


You can take that hand crossbow from the lizardfolk and bring it with you wherever you go and it will be effective.

Outside of poorly planned random loot there is no reason for a lizadfolk to have one on its person, let alone use. But you can also take that Blowpipe/Dart anywhere with you and it will be effective at what its made for. In a game with unlimited cantrips the role of the Dart is a lot less than it used to be but still is a valid weapon to have around. Not everything is or ever should be "optimal".

[Dr.Samurai]

Hmm, im sure someone said that a lizardfolk might have one... oh look its you



Outside of poorly planned random loot there is no reason for a lizadfolk to have one on its person, let alone use.
.....

The person before me mentioned that lizardfolk using hand crossbows would be dealing with more advanced tech.

The point is that the advanced tech doesn't matter. What matters is how a PC can use a hand crossbow after picking one up, or a blowgun after picking one up.

A fighter does more with a quarterstaff than any other NPC with a quarterstaff, even though it's the simplest form of weapon you can find. It doesn't mean it's "optimal".

Your answer to the OP's question is "the blowgun sucks because it doesn't have to not suck". Which is true, I suppose.

But you can also take that Blowpipe/Dart anywhere with you and it will be effective at what its made for. In a game with unlimited cantrips the role of the Dart is a lot less than it used to be but still is a valid weapon to have around.
Ah, so the person that wants to run around using a blowgun as a weapon should just snap up a cantrip instead. Got it.

Not everything is or ever should be "optimal".
Sure, I have no problem agreeing with this, whatever it means.

[oogaboogagoblin]

so the main points i see are "the weapon exists for flavouring" and "its good for poisoning and stealth" all of those really don't answer my question. flavouring does not require the weapon to suck, and the thing you want flavoured the most are the characters, the fact that it sucks so bad means that its nigh-infeasible for a pc that cares about combat, and the poisoning/stealth point actually doesnt work that well either, because poison in 5e works on every weapon, and blowguns are HUGE (18 inches to 23 ft). if the weapon was a d6 or a d4 with some advantage specific to only it, then it would work imo

[Willie the Duck]

A blowgun can be used as a snorkel in a pinch. No other weapon has that functionality.

Not that I expect people to go out into the wilds and try this, but it should be noted that if you are using one of the longer (4-6') blowguns, trying to use it as a snorkel would be a problem. Depending on the diameter (and thus air volume of the tube), you would likely be sucking in the same air you expelled.


so the main points i see are "the weapon exists for flavouring" and "its good for poisoning and stealth" all of those really don't answer my question. flavouring does not require the weapon to suck, and the thing you want flavoured the most are the characters, the fact that it sucks so bad means that its nigh-infeasible for a pc that cares about combat, and the poisoning/stealth point actually doesnt work that well either, because poison in 5e works on every weapon, and blowguns are HUGE (18 inches to 23 ft). if the weapon was a d6 or a d4 with some advantage specific to only it, then it would work imo

The reason a blowgun exists on the table (IMO) is because if it didn't, someone would ask why it was missing (and unlike tridents, would have been hard to just be a re-flavored something else). There's no specific reason why it should or shouldn't be PC-optimal. Plenty of weapons on the chart aren't (or are for very specific and rarely seen builds-- I don't know of many Str-based simple-weapon-only characters who do two-weapon fighting and thus make great use out of clubs*). There are real world weapons that fall into the category of 'things that would be sub-optimal for PCs to use' (if doing what PCs do was actually a common medieval activity), and it is unclear (to me) what the designers should do with such things. I certainly would have preferred that they be consistent, as them shoehorning Pikes into non-formation weapons to make them PC-useful is indeed going in the opposite direction. However, I'd probably rather it be consistently siding with 'suboptimal for adventuring gets suboptimal weapon stats' and just leave them as things you use only when it's all you have. That said, if you wanted to make them on-par with other weapons, by all means make them 1d4 or 1d6, moderate range, and some other benefits like being able to fire while prone, easy to disguise as a non-weapon, or whatnot.
*yes, monks or shillelagh, but then it specifically isn't the weapon stats at play.

[SpanielBear]

One question that comes to me in all of this.

How are Lizardmen using blowguns when they don’t have any lips?

[JellyPooga]

You can't knock people unconscious with ranged attacks, so having a way to deliver something like drow poison at the distance that won't kill the target through raw damage anyway may be useful.

This here.

Not all weapons are designed to inflict the most damage. Some are designed to inflict the least and I think this is what's happening in the case of the blowgun. Injury Poisons require the victim to take damage, but you don't always want the victim to be damaged too much. Some creatures are resistant or immune to damage from non-magical weapons too. Enter the enchanted Blowgun with some (nicely cheap) Drow poison to send your mate who's on a lycanthropic rampage to beddie-byes without having to get too close to those curse-ridden claws and teeth or drop those HP too far.

[Easy e]

Do you think that's not a thing?

I was hoping on anthropologists and tribes out-of-contact did it and not actual sport hunters.

I have to say, I do have a lot more respect for blowgun, atlatl, and throwing axe hunters than traditional high-powered rifle hunters now. Totally off topic though.

[stoutstien]

Should note the fantasy blowgun are usually much smaller and compact than their real-life counterpart. I'm thinking return of the mummy size in most cases.

[Chronos]

OK, I totally get why the low-tech wilderness lizardfolk wouldn't be using hand crossbows. But that doesn't answer why they would use blowguns. There are lots of other weapons they could use instead. Like, if they can make blowdarts, then they can make throwing darts, too, which have slightly less range, but significantly more damage, can be used one-handed, are easier to learn, can be used with Str, and can be used with Extra Attack. Or they could use slings, which are just better in every way than blowguns.

In real life, people who used blowguns did so because blowguns had real advantages over all of the alternatives, such as slings or throwing darts. So if anyone at all, even lizardfolk savages, use blowguns in the game, it should also be because they have real advantages. Except they don't. Hence the need for houseruling.

[Lord Vukodlak]

One question that comes to me in all of this.

How are Lizardmen using blowguns when they don’t have any lips?
Because according to the artwork they have lips.

[Damon_Tor]

One question that comes to me in all of this.

How are Lizardmen using blowguns when they don’t have any lips?

Many reptiles, especially aquatic or semi-aquatic reptiles, have a throat can be opened or closed to seal it and prevent them from swallowing too much water when using their mouths as weapons. It's not impossible their blowguns go ALL THE WAY into the mouth, where these muscular flaps close around it and create and air-tight seal.

[SpanielBear]

Many reptiles, especially aquatic or semi-aquatic reptiles, have a throat can be opened or closed to seal it and prevent them from swallowing too much water when using their mouths as weapons. It's not impossible their blowguns go ALL THE WAY into the mouth, where these muscular flaps close around it and create and air-tight seal.

Today I learned. Objection withdrawn!

[JellyPooga]

In real life, people who used blowguns did so because blowguns had real advantages over all of the alternatives, such as slings or throwing darts. So if anyone at all, even lizardfolk savages, use blowguns in the game, it should also be because they have real advantages. Except they don't. Hence the need for houseruling.

The advantages of a blowgun are:
1) It doesn't deal gross physical damage, making it a good hunting tool (to minimise damage to potential food). A poisoned blow-dart only needs to deal some damage to be fully effective. Dealing more damage is a disadvantage.

2) They're typically seen in cultures from heavily forested or jungle areas; it's a direct fire weapon that doesn't require a large space to operate in. Corrollary; it can be used lying down and/or from hiding more easily than any dart, sling or bow. As a hunting tool, this is a significant advantage.

3) It's made from cheap and available materials that require few tools or work.

4) It's lightweight. So is its ammunition.

These "real" advantages apply just as much in RL as they do in game. If the blowgun is ineffective because poisons arer too expensive and don't scale well in D&D, that's a problem with poisons, not the blowgun.

[Hytheter]

Come to think if it, swap the blowgun to simple and the sling to martial and reduce the blowgun cost to 1gp and I think most of my quibbles about the two weapons would be resolved.

I for one would still be bothered by the slings paltry range. Historical writings insist that the sling outranges even the bow - I can't say whether this is true (quite possible they just hadn't developed great bows yet) but surely it should at least be better than a thrown javelin.

[Chronos]

But in-game, slings and darts are also direct-fire and don't require a lot of space, and can be used prone or from hiding, and are lightweight, and made from cheap, locally-available materials. Those aren't advantages to the blowgun. If you want those to be advantages of the blowgun, then you have to houserule (say, ruling that slings can't be used from prone).

[JellyPooga]

But in-game, slings and darts are also direct-fire and don't require a lot of space, and can be used prone or from hiding, and are lightweight, and made from cheap, locally-available materials. Those aren't advantages to the blowgun. If you want those to be advantages of the blowgun, then you have to houserule (say, ruling that slings can't be used from prone).

Anyone trying to use a sling while sitting in a bush in one of my games gets a firm "no" for being silly. Fun Fact: that's not a houserule (nor is it arbitrary).

[Sorinth]

But in-game, slings and darts are also direct-fire and don't require a lot of space, and can be used prone or from hiding, and are lightweight, and made from cheap, locally-available materials. Those aren't advantages to the blowgun. If you want those to be advantages of the blowgun, then you have to houserule (say, ruling that slings can't be used from prone).

That's not strictly true. The whole philosophy of 5e is that the rules can't take everything into consideration and therefore the DM is there to make judgement calls. Using a sling from prone/hiding/etc... reasonably fall into the territory of DM judgement calls. Put another way it's a house rule to say that you can use a sling while hiding as much as it is to say you can't.

[KorvinStarmast]

You can also sneak attack with them if you have Rogue levels. That being said, you would need some way to get proficiency (although I would let the assassin subclass have it for free). Yeah, ought to come at level 3 when choosing that sub class. I think I'll add that in pencil to my PHB, or, I'll move the blow gun to simple weapon rather than martial. And now I get a hilarious thought: assassin uses blow gun, does 1d4 + 6d6 damage if they were successfully hiding, plus poison on top of that. I expect that someone will scream at me about that. :smallbiggrin:

You can't knock people unconscious with ranged attacks, so having a way to deliver something like drow poison at the distance that won't kill the target through raw damage anyway may be useful.

What's next, hunter's using handmade atlatls? It worked for a long time during the stone age, didn't it?

It's tempting to look at any non-optimal weapon/armor and ask, "what's the point?" But that's the wrong way to look at it. +1.

not every bit of loot that can be looted needs to be useful. in fact, not every encounter needs to have useful loot for the party, Correct. This isn't a video game. Wednesday a bunch of giant lizards swarmed out of the rocks at the party, party defeated them, no loot.

Edit: I was going to say it's cheap, but then I looked and it costs 10 gp. The same as a short sword? REALLY? Yeah, seems kind of odd.


Or as a straw.
No-one would suspect you're carrying magic scrolls in your blowgun either. Or beer. Ooh! Or bees. That could come as quite a surprise if you thought you had beer in there, though.
Put some rice in it and stop up the ends and you have a rain stick? The perfect gift.
Put a lens in either end and you could be looking through your very own ginormous telescope.

The possibilities are endless. What can a sword do, huh? Cut things? Whoop-di-doo.
This is the kind of thinking that I think adds to game play. :smallsmile:

I have a character that uses darts "re-flavored as playing cards" It took down the BBEG. I am getting a League of Legends Twisted Fate vibe here. :smallsmile:

[Segev]

Proposed special rules for blowguns and their darts:

Blowguns do not give away your position if you use them from hiding.

Blowgun darts that are treated with poison retain the dose until used, effectively indefinitely. Unlike other weapons which have it lose efficacy after some time.


I think the time varies by poison, but the point is that the blowgun dart will ignore that time limit.

[Easy e]

It worked for a long time during the stone age, didn't it?


True enough.

I was at a National Park (or some such) and got the chance to use one a few times. Pretty cool, and I would have mad respect for any hunter that still used one today.

I now have a feeling that if I go the the bookstore, I will find a magazine devoted to hunting with stone age tech, similar to how you find ones about black powder and archery hunting.

If there isn't one..... I might have a new business idea!

[Battlebooze]

Proposed special rules for blowguns and their darts:

Blowguns do not give away your position if you use them from hiding.

Blowgun darts that are treated with poison retain the dose until used, effectively indefinitely. Unlike other weapons which have it lose efficacy after some time.


I think the time varies by poison, but the point is that the blowgun dart will ignore that time limit.

Honestly this would make blowguns useful, though still niche, which is perfectly fine. Given their cost, weak range and effect, and skill required to use them as martial weapons, they are merely weird flavor weapons, and might as well be martial throw rocks. Slings are far far far more effective and better in all ways.