How would you build a Ranger/Echo Knight multiclass?

[CMCC]

Gloomstalker seems the obvious subclass, but want to hear all the good ideas :) I'm sure there are other mixes that work well, too. Either class can be the "dip".

[kazaryu]

Gloomstalker seems the obvious subclass, but want to hear all the good ideas :) I'm sure there are other mixes that work well, too. Either class can be the "dip".

so...im going to start with the assumption that you're building from the ground up. as in starting at (or close to level 1). which may affect things.

i'd probably go hunter 5/echo 4/hunter 11. the goal being to end up at echo 4 hunter 16. one of the big 'problems' with MCing a martial is that it can feel really bad if you don't get extra attack at lvl 5. lvl 5 is a significant powerboost across the board, and if you delay that by a level or 2, you can end up feeling like you're lagging behind the party for a level or two, which i'd want to avoid in actual gameplay, especially depending on how quickly im actually leveling.

either way i'd end up at hunter16/echoknight 4. thats the full 5 asis to play with. i'd also go archery focused, since you already have 2 secondary stats (wis for ranger spells and con for invoke incarnation) and you get more bang for your buck outta dex.

for the hunter options i'd go
lvl 3: colossus slayer: hordebreaker is tempting, to be fair, but neither feature scales super well and colossus slayer is going to be more consistently used. like, the 'within 5 feet' conditional aside, hordebreaker is also not *really* useable if you DO have 2 enemies next to each other...but they're not priority targets. its more powerful, but also more niche, and i dislike inconsitency. whereas i have a decent chance of being able to proc colossus slayer every turn i decide to attack.

lvl 7: multiattack defense. [spoiler=you know..]similar to above, im a ranged character, ideally i don't need to worry about opportunity attacks, and if im at risk of taking one, i theoretically have the option of trading places with my echo to avoid it. making 'escape the horde' a bit more niche. it could be nice to have, but i'd rather cover a niche that i don't already have some amount of coverage for.

lvl 11: Volley...obviously
Lvl 15: either evasion or uncanny dodge of course...depending on campaign.

asis: i mean...boost dex i suppose. pick up sharpshooter and elven accuracy at some point. this depending a lot on races and how racial feats are handled.

but yeah, thats the general gist. just...idk i love the idea of BA lightning arrow into volley->action surge->volley for a total of like...4d8+30 damage to everyone in a 10 foot radius. nuke a small area with arrows...all by yourself.

[CMCC]

Does Hunter offer more than GS? I'm always hesitant to use the PHB subclasses.

[ender241]

Gloomstalker seems the obvious subclass, but want to hear all the good ideas :) I'm sure there are other mixes that work well, too. Either class can be the "dip".

Here's a build I've been wanting to try ever since I heard about the new Bugbears

MPMM Bugbear
Echo Knight 12 / Gloomstalker 3 / Assassin 3 (not necessarily in that order but definitely Echo Knight for at least the first 5)
Last couple levels to taste / based on ASI and feat needs/wants
Could even throw in a 1 level Twilight Cleric dip, if your DM is willing to let you go full munchkin

16 Dex, 16 Con, 13-14 Wis

+2 Dex
+2 Dex
Alert
Fey Touched (Gift of Alacrity)

The idea of the build is simple: kill stuff before they even have a chance to react.

Hopefully you catch your target(s) by surprise, but if not, you still have a +12+1d8 to initiative (and maybe advantage), so there's a pretty good chance you go first.

Assuming you do go first, you have very impressive nova damage. Start by casting hunter's mark on the biggest/toughest/most dangerous looking enemy and then attack them with everything you've got. Between action surge, dread ambusher (x2), and unleash carnation (x2), you can attack 10 times in the first round, all at advantage (from assassinate).

Each attack does 1d8 (rapier) + 2d6 (Bugbear) + 1d6 (HM) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (dueling fighting style) = 22 average damage per hit
Plus, both dread ambush attacks get an extra 1d8. And you've got 2d6 sneak attack damage to stick in there wherever. Putting overall average damage for the first round at around 236 damage (if all attacks hit).

But, if your DM grants you surprise it gets even better. Assassinate turns every one of those hits into automatic crits. Putting the total average damage over 400 (again, if all 10 attacks land).

Your damage after the first round is obviously going to fall off a bit of a cliff, but you've still got 3 attacks and good hp/ac, and can control the battlefield better than a lot of martials with your echo granting another spot to proc OAs from.

Edit: also, if your DM is generous with surprise, it might be worth it to start with odd Dex and grab Piercer. The extra die for all those crits would be juicy.

[kazaryu]

Does Hunter offer more than GS? I'm always hesitant to use the PHB subclasses.

i mean, it depends on what you want. it offers different things than GS.

GS is always gonna have more single target damage (which is generally going to be more valuable than multitarget damage, due to how boss fights tend to work). and GS is gonna have better nova (especially combined with echoknight) due to their extra first turn attack...actually..lemme just do a 'side by side' comparison for you.

gloomstalkers big third level feature is the extra attack on the attack action and an extra 1d8 damage on that attack (i don't mean to discount how useful umbral sight and the bonus 10 speed can be, but few people go gloomstalker for those aspects.) for the sake of argument we'll call that a total of 2d8+5 damage per combat.

hunter gets (in the case of my idea) an extra 1d8 damage per round if the enemy is at less than full HP.

so it takes 3 procs for the two damage to roughly equal out. meaning that pre-level 5 this is clearly in favor of GS. the first round of combat is the easily the most important and GS gets their damge right up front. After level 5 though, things look better for hunter, because with extra attack colossus slayer becomes easier to proc, the same cannot be said for the GS. if hte GS misses their ambush attack, thats it, the bonus damage doesn't matter. whereas if the hunter lands either of their attacks...of course GS does get some decent features (if slightly niche) alongside dread ambusher. Overall, hunter is gonna do more consistent damage, GS is gonna be better for burst. so for your own thoughts, keep in mind how you expect this character to fight, or rather, how fights typically go at your table. if they're short 1-2 round affairs, favor GS (at least at this level), but if they go for 4-5 rounds, you may favor hunter...at the very least the subclass remains present past turn 1.

lvl 7 features: they're all fairly niche defensive tools.

GS: proficiency in wis save

hunter: choice between
a) enemies have disadvantage on opportunity attacks
b)you get a +4AC vs multi-attack (after the first attack hits).
c)advantage on saves vs fear.

so..at this level, i'd lean hunter basically every time. wis save proficiency is nice and all, when it comes up. but its also a feature you can 100% replace with a feat (and as a ranger, its not even a bad feat for you) whereas any of the hunter options are largely unique.


lvl 11:
GS: 1/turn get an extra attack if they miss with an attack.

hunter: your choice of AoE attack, depending on if you're ranged or melee.

so GS effectively gets a 1/turn reroll on an missed attack roll. you can retarget it, and it stacks with advantage. this is good. the downside is its explicitly a new attack, so in practice, this means that if you stacked a spell on the arrow, or a poison, or something like that...you still missed. so it doesn't actually help you hit when THIS EXACT attack needs to hit. Its still good, it does help their consistent damage. Compare that too the hunter getting AOE attacks. so...again, single target damage is typically better, and you're trading it out with something like volley (you aren't taking the attack action. you're using the volley action). OTOH, the hunter is also one of the few martial sources for AoE damge. its not great AoE damage, but if you're attacking a crowd of mooks you can put some serious hurt. especially with sharshooter. This is the one level i can't really compare for you. I really like the idea of the Volley ability. even in the small skirmish style combats you could still get an attack in on most of the baddies. thats pretty dope, and with an action surge you can get 2 attacks in. so thats sort of like just...doing a full attack action on everyone (as i mentioned in my original post). but ultimately it comes down to what you value. GS feature helps make your damage more consistent (the accuracy bonus might actually be enough to make up for the overall damage deficit you're at from colossus slayer). idk which you'd prefer.

lvl 15:
GS can use a reaction to give 1 attack against them disadvantage.

hunter: their choice of uncanny dodge, evasion or the ability to redirect a melee attack that missed.

GS can suck it at this level. For the same reason people tend to not highly rate the defensive duelist feat. use your reaction to MAYBE make a single attack miss. that can be useful, but its basically the equivalent of just...taking half damge from a single attack, which you get from uncanny dodge...and uncnny dodge can be applied to crits. or if magic is more a problem, take evasion. i don't really think there's much room to argue that GS has a better 15th level feature than hunter.



so...i mean overall? i think its kinda dealers choice. for early levels hunter gets better consistent damage whereas GS novas harder. mid levels, hunter gets some unique defensive tool, and AoE damage, whereas GS double's down on single target damage. and at the end hunter gets a better defensive tool. OH, but we forgot to talk about spells. another BIG thing that GS gets is an adjusted spell list. combatwise fear and greater invis are all they add. and those are both good...but they're also concentration, so they clash with arrow spells...and things like hunters mark/favored foe. also also...unless you are setting up an ambush, casting either spell round one (when they'd be most effective) means you cut off the biggest reason to go GS...

[animorte]

I would favor Swarmkeeper for additional free mobility. That's just my personal favorite Ranger though.

[CMCC]

I would favor Swarmkeeper for additional free mobility. That's just my personal favorite Ranger though.

Yeah my top 3 subclass choices (off the top of my head) would be GS, SK, and FW. But I'm not sure if that's just my top 3 ranger choices or top choices for THIS particular build :)

[Rashagar]

Fey Wanderer Echo Knight sounds kind of Peter Pan-y hehe

[CMCC]

Fey Wanderer Echo Knight sounds kind of Peter Pan-y hehe

Hmm - I think you just made my next build lol

All he needs is summon fey and flight asap.

[animorte]

Yeah my top 3 subclass choices (off the top of my head) would be GS, SK, and FW. But I'm not sure if that's just my top 3 ranger choices or top choices for THIS particular build :)

Haha, why not both!?!

[CMCC]

Haha, why not both!?!

I like how you think!

[Kane0]

I would like Horizon Walker for the level 11 teleportation, but other than that nothing springs to mind as super synergistic. I'd probably default back to Fey ranger like I usually do.

[CMCC]

I would like Horizon Walker for the level 11 teleportation, but other than that nothing springs to mind as super synergistic. I'd probably default back to Fey ranger like I usually do.

Yeah - thematically the synergy is perfect. Mechanically - not so much - although dread ambusher and action surge + unleash incarnation synergize very well.

But going with a dex build for echo knight is tough.

[animorte]

But going with a dex build for echo knight is tough.

I would like to cordially disagree since I tend toward a Dex build for everything. :smalltongue:

[CMCC]

I would like to cordially disagree since I tend toward a Dex build for everything. :smalltongue:

Yeah they are REALLY good. Initiative benefits alone are almost worth it.