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WitchyKitty
2022-03-22, 06:58 PM
So.. this is gonna sound like a dumb question- and explanation, I think, but I'd like some insight or advice.

Bards. They interest me- or at least, their concept interests me, and I'm honestly kinda curious about playing one in an upcoming campaign. Still considering it, or other class options.
My problem lies with........ other people.
Or more precisely, what other players have done to the Bard as a class. Other players have ruined bards for me almost completely but consistently. My god.

Why do so many countless players turn their bards into horndogs? Where did they get this idea that bards absolutely have to **** every single thing in existence? Why do people think or assume that bards have to be... flirty ****s who just can't keep their damn hands to themselves? Look, I know they're described as 'charismatic'. I know their class stat is Charisma. But where the hell did people get the idea that these people who are (a lot of the time) supposed to be seemingly classy musicians and poets, are just these irrepressible sexfiends who want to squeeze everything they come in contact with? Every single bard I've heard about (or had the displeasure of playing with in campaigns) hardly ever did anything other than flirting or trying to seduce or **** anything that had an orifice.

Other players have ruined bards for me such that this stereotype alone keeps me away from it and I don't exactly want to be associated with...... that kind of player. They always toss out the music, poetry, art, swordsmanship, and practically 95% of 'actually being a character' in exchange for.... being a bimbo or himbo.

So.... apologies for venting like that, but, to my original intended question.

How the hell do I get over that weird stigma I feel for bards? I feel like there's so much potential for one but.... yeah I don't really want to be associated with the players who turn their bards into one-dimensional nymphomaniacs. I'm just a very, very frustrated player trying to wrestle with a conundrum.

LibraryOgre
2022-03-22, 07:34 PM
My best suggestion is come up with an entirely different stereotype and embrace it.

Go with the priest with a beautiful singing voice. A wandering priest of a deity devoted to music and knowledge. Make him a castratto, and completely uninterested in sex.

Go with a warrior-bard, from Strong Warrior Culture. A hobgoblin bard, whose music inspires warriors to battle. Not anti-horny, just more focused.

Grab the features of the bard and decide what they could make that is not just the horny slapstick guy.

Lord Raziere
2022-03-22, 08:03 PM
make them a refined sophisticated maestro with a conductors baton wholly devoted to making the best orchestra piece in the world, who has time for sex? your becoming the next Beethoven.

college of whispers: your bardliness is just a cover for political machinations. you don't want to sleep with people, anyone could be a shapeshifter and trust is in short supply for you. your too busy working on wider designs.

the sound scientist bard:
you are scholar studying bard magic, while your charismatic your primary focus is not on entertainment but studying why bard magic works in the first place, why the optimal sounds are, why does the universe react to music, sometimes to the point of not even playing music but just seeming to manipulate sound. the wizards at the college may find it a strange study but if it works there must be something worth investigating here and who knows you might get a Ph.D out of it.

the pragmatism bard:
this bard is completely serious and no-nonsense. their view of bard magic is to help people, no matter what the situation and tries to be a wise leader, belonging to an order where bard magic is used to its most useful extent and treated as more of a tool to help than an art. you might not even sing, but only make inspiring speeches through oratory.

Rynjin
2022-03-22, 08:06 PM
How the hell do I get over that weird stigma I feel for bards? I feel like there's so much potential for one but.... yeah I don't really want to be associated with the players who turn their bards into one-dimensional nymphomaniacs. I'm just a very, very frustrated player trying to wrestle with a conundrum.

The bets way is to stop giving a **** about what other people think and just do what you want. It doesn't matter whether people "associate you" with other people or not.

This works for most other things in life as well.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-03-22, 08:57 PM
Don't play with immature goofs?

I know that sounds glib, but if the other players at your table are obnoxious, there's nothing you can do to stop them. On the other hand, if they're reasonable they won't judge you or try to force you to play your character a certain way. If that's the case, you might be able to change the group's stereotype by virtue of your good example.

If your brain is still being difficult, it might help to identify your character as a "skald" or "cantor" or something and just not write the word "bard" anywhere on your character sheet.


The bets way is to stop giving a **** about what other people think and just do what you want. It doesn't matter whether people "associate you" with other people or not.

This works for most other things in life as well.
Agreed. It's a shame it's so hard sometimes.

Duff
2022-03-22, 10:07 PM
Why do so many countless players turn their bards into horndogs? Where did they get this idea that bards absolutely have to **** every single thing in existence? Why do people think or assume that bards have to be... flirty ****s who just can't keep their damn hands to themselves? Look, I know they're described as 'charismatic'. I know their class stat is Charisma. But where the hell did people get the idea that these people who are (a lot of the time) supposed to be seemingly classy musicians and poets, are just these irrepressible sexfiends who want to squeeze everything they come in contact with? Every single bard I've heard about (or had the displeasure of playing with in campaigns) hardly ever did anything other than flirting or trying to seduce or **** anything that had an orifice.

The reason for why is a combination of high charisma which allows more success and the idea that every rockstar enjoys their "groupies"

But unless your table won't cope with it, no class ever has to be played according to stereotype. Play a wizard who's horny and sociable. Play a teifling from a loving family who thinks angst is a bit silly. Play a paladin who's epically chill because they know they're low key nearly perfect and other people can't live up to their standards. "But they try ... Bless!" Play a bard who's happily married with kids and looks forward to the break between adventures.

There's no reason for bards to be harder to play against Tropes than any other class. Even easier if you don't like the trope

animorte
2022-03-22, 10:54 PM
I think the misconception about Bards is this: because they max Charisma and have a lot of charm spells, they must be promiscuous...

They also don't seem to have a primary or direct role to play in a lot of groups. They're often seen as being versatile enough that they can cover for most any other role. They are very supportive characters, but not so directly as being the primary healer (cleric). They are loaded with skills, but not necessarily focused on the stealth/traps/lockpicking skills that are prioritized (rogue).

But look at it this way. Let's say you're in a group of adventurers that are traveling the world seeking renown, hunting down loot, helping people, and defeating great foes! Who better to tell your story than a character who is great with people, a character that can form your long travels into tales of wonder for all to hear? They also happen to be a solid addition to any party because of their versatility.

I made this comment on a different thread a couple days ago.

Hytheter
2022-03-23, 01:42 AM
In my defense, my character was a horndog before rules changes forced me to rework into bard!

Ortho
2022-03-23, 02:59 AM
How the hell do I get over that weird stigma I feel for bards? I feel like there's so much potential for one but.... yeah I don't really want to be associated with the players who turn their bards into one-dimensional nymphomaniacs. I'm just a very, very frustrated player trying to wrestle with a conundrum.

You could make your bard asexual. That would basically remove the horny stereotype as an option.

Batcathat
2022-03-23, 03:30 AM
Are bards being horny really the most prevalent class stereotype to get over? I feel like fighters being stupid, paladins being bossy and judgemental or wizards being pseudo-Gandalf are more common.

Either way, I don't really understand the problem. Just play the bard differently, whether it's by intentionally subverting the stereotype or just ignoring it. Playing stereotypes is usually very boring anyway, in my experience.

Mordante
2022-03-23, 04:30 AM
I have a feeling people are more annoyed by someone playing a flirtatious bard, then someone playing Sorcerer in a cloak, pointy hat (Gandalf type or any fantacy novel Sorc/Wiz)

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-23, 08:35 AM
The bets way is to stop giving a **** about what other people think and just do what you want. It doesn't matter whether people "associate you" with other people or not.

This works for most other things in life as well. This is true.
I made this comment on a different thread a couple days ago. Bards have a wide array of choices in play; mine was our party's primary support.
The Valor Bard in one of our groups is a performer and occasional horn dog.
The lore bard in another of our groups is mostly a coward who mostly finds ways to debuff enemies. (It's a party that usually sees 6 PCs in play)

The lore bard I played through 20 was certainly outgoing, but she was quite picky when it came to potential romantic partners. Usually to busy doing stuff to get the party's next adventure set up or socially engaging with local merchants and nobility to get involved in any kind of promiscuous behavior.

For the OP: if anyone at the table makes assumptions about your bard, just look them in the eye and tell them "This bard is going to be how I play him/her, you play your PC." (It's OK to smile when you say this, but make sure you get the message across).
And then have fun. Bards can be great fun to play.

RedMage125
2022-03-23, 09:12 AM
The reason for why is a combination of high charisma which allows more success and the idea that every rockstar enjoys their "groupies"


I think this might be it, too.

3e was the first time I ever felt the desire to play a bard. I don't know when the "horny bard stereotype" started, but it certainly wasn't something I knew of then. He was Chaotic Neutral, and his primary motivation was that he wanted to write the most epic ballad ever, to be immortalized in song. To that end, he wished to adventure with heroic types, because that makes for the best, most popular stories. So although he was not Good himself, he would be the first to volunteer the party to go do high-visibility heroic deeds (save the kingdom, rescue the princess, slay the dragon). But he did these things out of the desire for recognition and accolades, not out of any actual concern for the well-being of others. He had, as a character flaw, a weakness for the opposite sex, and would sometimes get in trouble for seducing married women and such, but it still wasn't nearly as bad as the current "Horny Bard" trope.

Honestly, the best analog for him would be Dandelion from the Witcher books, if you've ever read them. Mostly concerned about his art, but keeps getting in trouble because of a weakness for women.

In my home setting, that character is an NPC. He's an elf, and is now past middle age (over 500 years). He has left a slew of illegitimate half-elf children across the land, but doesn't really care, because, as he would say "no one writes epic ballads about responsible fathers who stayed at home, raising their children".

That's the closest I've come. The current stereotype has gotten so absurd though, that I don't feel like ever playing him again.

My only 5e bard I've played was a dragonborn Valor bard. He was a "skald" type character, wading into battle with a mix of steel and spells (had War Caster). His usual instrument he used as a focus was a hunting horn which hangs from around his neck. A sharp blast could blow enemies back (Thunderwave), a long, deep note could put them to sleep (Sleep), a short tootle could be a rallying cry (Bardic Inspiration).

You also don't have to feel beholden to the default fluff of the class. One thing I do in my home setting is let the mechanics be subordinate to the narrative. For example, there is an academy in my world that trains "Swordmages" (Gish-type characters). 3 graduates who al went there together might come out as an Eldritch Knight, a Bladesinger Wizard, and a Valor/Swords Bard. Their individual class features just represent their individual talents and area of focus, but to the world, all 3 are "swordmages".

Mordante
2022-03-23, 10:09 AM
You can always go for 'evil-ish' Bard.

Bard/Minder Bender/Dirge Singer/ Sublime Chord something.

Archpaladin Zousha
2022-03-23, 10:11 AM
Honestly, the best analog for him would be Dandelion from the Witcher books, if you've ever read them. Mostly concerned about his art, but keeps getting in trouble because of a weakness for women.
I think he's part of the reason the trope became a problem in the first place; people who played The Witcher games (and didn't want to play a Geralt clone) thought Dandelion was amusing and copied him with their own bard PCs, slowly flanderizing the concept with each iteration, so you start with a bard who gets himself into trouble because he can't say no to a pretty face and his friends have to bail him out of that trouble from time to time to a person whose literal every other thought is about women and gets honestly creepy about it.

The same thing happened with paladins: first you had the chivalrous characters that inspired the class, then players trying to roleplay chivalry and not understanding it very well, to believing they needed to police their party's actions and Smite anything that was evil automatically with chivalry not even being MENTIONED anymore, resulting in the "Lawful Stupid" reputation paladins have today.

It's sort of a problem that ALL character concepts in RPGs suffer from: no matter how well-executed the original concept was, players will inevitably forget some of those concepts' nuances when playing their own, and the stereotype becomes more and more blatant, dominates the character's personality more and more, with each new iteration until we wind up at Baudrillard. :smallannoyed:

Hytheter
2022-03-23, 10:37 AM
I think he's part of the reason the trope became a problem in the first place; people who played The Witcher games (and didn't want to play a Geralt clone) thought Dandelion was amusing and copied him with their own bard PCs

I'm quite certain horny bards go back further than the Witcher games.

Lord Raziere
2022-03-23, 11:21 AM
I'm quite certain horny bards go back further than the Witcher games.

Yeah, Witcher seems a bit too recent for that. and a bit too GoT for the kind of people that play DnD who'd make these kinds of goofy stock characters.

Archpaladin Zousha
2022-03-23, 11:22 AM
I'm quite certain horny bards go back further than the Witcher games.
I don't doubt it, but Dandelion is one of the more prominent examples the mainstream would be familiar with. Back when I first got into D&D in the late 3.0 to early 3.5 days the stereotype didn't seem nearly as ubiquitous as it is now, and the only bard I knew then for context was Fflewddur Fflam. Even 15 years ago, when the first Witcher game came out it didn't seem like that big of a stereotype, at least compared to the more prominent ones like the Lawful Stupid paladin or the Drizzt Do'Urden copycat. The most prominent bard related stereotype I can think of at the time was basically just a vain lute-playing dandy (and it was ALWAYS a lute, no other instrument would do).

I feel like the reason the trope evolved the way it did was because both The Witcher became more mainstream with the video games raising awareness of the books, and D&D itself becoming more mainstream with shows like Critical Role and The Adventure Zone and Dimension20.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-23, 12:00 PM
Don't play with immature goofs?

Yeah, this. The best group I was in treated this stuff maturely, except for that one time (and that was the time sex didn't happen!). But hey, we're all immature on occasion.


You could make your bard asexual. That would basically remove the horny stereotype as an option.

As somebody who's had an idea for an asexual possibly aromatic bard for years I fully support this option.

The association of Bards with sex comes from the rock star image, the Charisma focus, and the fact that people legitimately like sex (it's the same reason the fighter gets to be with the prince as his reward). It's actually got nothing to do with where the original concept comes from, which is from a number of warrior-loremaster archetypes.

If this is 5e or PF2 my suggestion would be to take any background other than Entertainer. Sage gets you Bard Classic, Noble is good for going more Courtier, and Acolyte lets you play a priest who doesn't directly communicate with their god, or go Outlander and be an emissary of your people to this strange civilisation*! Let your imagination run wild and answer the question 'if I'm not sleeping with everybody in sight what am I doing'.

ETA: also yeah, any instrument but the lute. I tend towards flutes or pianos.

* This is my favourite, it works with literally any class. Barbarian, Bard, Wizard, Druid, Artificer...

Grod_The_Giant
2022-03-23, 02:20 PM
I feel like the reason the trope evolved the way it did was because both The Witcher became more mainstream with the video games raising awareness of the books, and D&D itself becoming more mainstream with shows like Critical Role and The Adventure Zone and Dimension20.

Nah...


The association of Bards with sex comes from the rock star image,
It's this. "Musicians get all the chicks" is a stereotype that's probably been around since the first caveman banged two rocks together rhythmically.

RedMage125
2022-03-23, 02:34 PM
I'm quite certain horny bards go back further than the Witcher games.


Yeah, Witcher seems a bit too recent for that. and a bit too GoT for the kind of people that play DnD who'd make these kinds of goofy stock characters.

The first Witcher game came out in 2007, when 3.5e was still being produced. The English translation of the books was a few years earlier, the books themselves were written in the 90s. And if you've read them, the author clearly played D&D. There are humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and half elves. Not to mention you find out there are other, even more magical kinds of elves.

Dandelion is the best analog I can think of for comparison NOW. I didn't read the books until 2 years ago, and I had this bard concept back in 3.0.

I don't know when the "horny bard" stereotype started, but I didn't see memes or anything about it until about 10-12 years ago. And even when that first started, it was just some Bards. It didn't really become "the stereotypical" bard until...I dunno...7 or so years ago?




The association of Bards with sex comes from the rock star image, the Charisma focus, and the fact that people legitimately like sex (it's the same reason the fighter gets to be with the prince as his reward). It's actually got nothing to do with where the original concept comes from, which is from a number of warrior-loremaster archetypes.
I quite agree.

Also, it often came up when my gamer friends would discuss "which class would you want to be if D&D stuff was real?" And Bard often came up, due to the whole "rock star" image.


If this is 5e or PF2 my suggestion would be to take any background other than Entertainer. Sage gets you Bard Classic, Noble is good for going more Courtier, and Acolyte lets you play a priest who doesn't directly communicate with their god, or go Outlander and be an emissary of your people to this strange civilisation*! Let your imagination run wild and answer the question 'if I'm not sleeping with everybody in sight what am I doing'.
I love mixing in unsual background choices for the class.

Had an Assassin Rogue with the Soldier background, all of his skillset came from his time in the army, where he would scout ahead, infiltrate, and take out enemy units. My DM let me swap out Thieves Cant for another language.

Had an elven monk with the Criminal background. He ran with the thieves guild when he was younger, got in trouble, and his family shipped him off to a monastery for 25 years. So he's a monk, but still has some skills and contacts from his old life.

And my personal favorite. Sailor background Fiend Pact Warlock. He was a merchant sailor, his ship crashed on an island. He and the crew helped a cabal of heroes seal away and imprison an archfiend that a cult had let loose. Everyone who participated in the ritual stole a fraction of the archfiend's power. They then scattered, so that they could not be found by the minions of the Fiend. They are literally "locks" on the prison of this Fiend. As they gain power (level up) they steal more power from it. If enough of them were killed, it could break free and come after the rest of them.


ETA: also yeah, any instrument but the lute. I tend towards flutes or pianos.


My first 5e bard used a hunting horn he hung around his neck...and bagpipes for out of combat music.

Jophiel
2022-03-23, 04:00 PM
You could make your bard asexual. That would basically remove the horny stereotype as an option.
I didn't go this route but my bard was female (horny bard stereotype seems mostly male) and liked sex just fine but was far too cool for school to be having sex with... well, basically anyone. Not YOU dorks, anyway.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-03-23, 06:58 PM
It didn't really become "the stereotypical" bard until...I dunno...7 or so years ago?
If I remember right, the big bard stereotype during the 3.5e days was bards as useless floops following people around singing "bravely bold Sir Robin..."




(With some justification, admittedly; a core-only bard doesn't have anything as obviously dangerous as Rage or Sneak Attack, so it winds up looking like a crappier Sorcerer. It had the bad luck of being a decently-balanced generalist in the same book that gave us what are arguably the four most potentially-overpowered classes in the game. Whatever you think of 5e, they did a good job of fixing the bard's image.)

RedMage125
2022-03-23, 07:33 PM
I didn't go this route but my bard was female (horny bard stereotype seems mostly male) and liked sex just fine but was far too cool for school to be having sex with... well, basically anyone. Not YOU dorks, anyway.

Well, THERE'S an answer for the OP...

"How to combat the stigma?"
"Have standards"

Archpaladin Zousha
2022-03-24, 12:40 AM
If I remember right, the big bard stereotype during the 3.5e days was bards as useless floops following people around singing "bravely bold Sir Robin..."

(With some justification, admittedly; a core-only bard doesn't have anything as obviously dangerous as Rage or Sneak Attack, so it winds up looking like a crappier Sorcerer. It had the bad luck of being a decently-balanced generalist in the same book that gave us what are arguably the four most potentially-overpowered classes in the game. Whatever you think of 5e, they did a good job of fixing the bard's image.)
That's EXACTLY what I'm saying! I feel like they didn't start acting like "medieval rock stars complete with groupies" until...like...after 4th Edition came and went.

Catullus64
2022-03-24, 01:21 AM
My favorite Bard was far too enamored of his poetry to ever really get much action. When the party would ride into town, he'd court the attentions of the loveliest local maiden, sing by her window at night, persuade her to come away for an evening of lovemaking upon the moonlit lakeshore...

Said maiden, if she accepted in anticipation of a spirited roll in the hay, was bound to awaken the next morning disappointed, having learned that said "lovemaking" really only consisted of hours spent listening to an elaborate crown of sonnets, or a long-form narrative romance entirely in terza rima.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-24, 03:10 AM
I didn't go this route but my bard was female (horny bard stereotype seems mostly male)

That's because the women who get the stereotype are the Sorceresses, generally wearing as little as the player can get away with. Stereotypically played by a man, but practically by people all over the gender spectrum.

Both do go back to the 3.X era, at least to the extent that they appear in the second The Gamers film. I believe it actually combined the useless fop and horndog stereotypes, which the character as played being useless at anything except seducing women

Kurald Galain
2022-03-24, 05:45 AM
It didn't really become "the stereotypical" bard until...I dunno...7 or so years ago?
This strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html) refers to the stereotype and is from seventeen years ago. "The bard" image series (https://i.imgur.com/hHI0y6D.jpeg) also refer to this stereotype and are about nineteen years old. In both cases, the stereotype must have existed for quite some time for parodies to refer to it.

So, nope. Not the witcher. It's older than you think.

(edit) Oh, RIGHT. Some of you may remember that in the early days of the internet, there were the Great Net Books which were basically usenet-based collections of extra options for 1E and 2E? One of the most prominent ones is the Great Net Book of Sex. Google it up (it's predictably NSFW) and I'm sure you'll find references to bards with this stereotype. And bear in mind that the stereotype already existed when people wrote that Net Book.

Kurald Galain
2022-03-24, 05:50 AM
How the hell do I get over that weird stigma I feel for bards?

I suggest basing your bard on Alan-a-Dale from Robin Hood, or the storytellers from The Canterbury Tales, or Silenus from Dan Simmons's books, or the Lark and the Wren from Mercedes Lackey's books, or Gabrielle from the Xena series. Frankly I'm having trouble thinking of a bard outside of RPGs that does match the "sleeps with everything" stereotype.

Mordante
2022-03-24, 05:59 AM
If I remember right, the big bard stereotype during the 3.5e days was bards as useless floops following people around singing "bravely bold Sir Robin..."

(With some justification, admittedly; a core-only bard doesn't have anything as obviously dangerous as Rage or Sneak Attack, so it winds up looking like a crappier Sorcerer. It had the bad luck of being a decently-balanced generalist in the same book that gave us what are arguably the four most potentially-overpowered classes in the game. Whatever you think of 5e, they did a good job of fixing the bard's image.)

I really don't think there is anything wrong with the 3.5 Bard. I thoroughly enjoy playing my female Catfolk Bard. Yes she sleeps around a bit (no sex per se) but not because, she's horny but she enjoys the company of powerful people. A safeguard. She can't play an instrument but does have skill points in perform sing and skill points in perform dance. She grew up in a more rogue like environment. But she was too lazy to actually train a lot and preferred to lay in the sun and sing and dance. Then one day she left her home to join a traveling troupe.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-24, 07:58 AM
It's also a good explanation for why there's so many half-humans running about. I mean it's really the Paladins, with their 17 Charisma and disease immunity, but they always blame the guy with the lute.

RedMage125
2022-03-24, 08:11 AM
This strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html) refers to the stereotype and is from seventeen years ago. "The bard" image series (https://i.imgur.com/hHI0y6D.jpeg) also refer to this stereotype and are about nineteen years old. In both cases, the stereotype must have existed for quite some time for parodies to refer to it.
The OotS one isn't a good example of the "horny bard". Elan isn't that. The other comic, however...that's the one I started seeing stuff for about 12 or so years ago, I had no idea it was that old. Honestly, that whole series was the first time I saw a bard represented as particularly lustful. It was using images from that comic that there started being memes about how bards being extremely sexual.

But as far as chatter from the gamer community where it started seeming like bards being super horny had become the "stereotype" of all bards...THAT is what I said I first started hearing 7 or so years ago.

EDIT: I just had one of those moments, when I realize JUST how long ago something was...and I think I first saw those memes like 15 years ago, not 12...but I'm quite sure I didn't hear the idea from gamers that "horny bards are the norm" until 2014 at the earliest, because I remember where I was stationed when I started hearing that, as it became a conversation in my game group at the time.


So, nope. Not the witcher. It's older than you think.
omg...

I did not say that the Witcher was the origin of the stereotype

Never said that. Not once. I said Dandelion from the Witcher books was a character from fiction who was similar to my bard who, while kind of promiscuous, was not as bad as the current stereotype. Dandelion keeps getting in trouble because of his libido, but his first and primary motivation is his art (which includes both his singing and his writing), followed closely by his friends.

It only came up again, because someone said the Witcher games were too recent, and I mentioned how long ago the first one was. As well as the age of the books. That was just a "btw, they weren't THAT recent" comment.


(edit) Oh, RIGHT. Some of you may remember that in the early days of the internet, there were the Great Net Books which were basically usenet-based collections of extra options for 1E and 2E? One of the most prominent ones is the Great Net Book of Sex. Google it up (it's predictably NSFW) and I'm sure you'll find references to bards with this stereotype. And bear in mind that the stereotype already existed when people wrote that Net Book.
I decided to call your bluff on that. Because I think you just remembered wrong. So I looked it up. Full title is "FOR UNLAWFUL CARNAL KNOWLEDGE, THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO AD&D SEX CREATED FOR ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS", in case there was doubt. Did a search for Bard in the document. Only mentioned 4 times. Once on a table, and twice in text explaining the table. It's a table of various "manias" someone could have, with a bunch of monsters, races, and classes on the table (so, someone who has wants to only have sex with bards and wants the bard to sing during it). And the last is on a list of random effects a "Cupid's Arrow" might have, one of which that the arrow itself becomes a sentient magic item with "a knowledge of poetry equal to a bard's".

So, no...that document has no references to horny bards at all.

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-24, 09:02 AM
So, no...that document has no references to horny bards at all. I see in that document, text based version that I found on line, the following on page 88 "Seducer: Wizard Kit" which tells me that this was an AD&D 2e related book. (1993 pub date, so yeah). (Hmm, just stumbled over the d20 conversion, and it's second example scenario is "Well traveled bard seduces the Duke's innocent daughter" on page 18 (guessing it was in the original, so 1993 ish?); date for the pdf I found was 2002. Title is "book or unlawful carnal knowledge" )

This thread has drifted to encapsulate the "origin of a meme" or "origin of a tradition" and I'd like to put a floor on this somewhere:
(a) I don't recall the bard being presented as a horn dog in the Strategic Review era game (SR is the first instance of a bard PC class to crop up) and
(b) the AD&D 1e version was very complicated to get into and I will guess that somewhere in the mid to late 80's (when you could roll for stats based on the class you wanted to play) and the Comeliness stat had been added in UA, that aspect of play became more common. Guessing, I am, since we usually used a 'fade to black' approach to such things since our groups didn't care for that aspect of make believe. Other groups were obviously very comfortable with it, if we look at the group effort encapsulated into that volume and the newsgroup cited as a sandbox.

Speculation: I wonder if one of the other RPGs, not D&D, had a bard/minstrel/troubador character that was The Seducer kind. (D&D did have the Houri class in one of the Dragon Magazine articles, but from that description she was more courtesan, assassin, and spy than bard). Perhaps the horny bard came in from Runequest or Chivalry and Sorcery or something like that and then, as D&D so often does, it soaked this up like the sponge that it is.

The meme? It might also be worth digging into old Dragon Magazine jokes or comic strips (Wormy, Snarfquest, or Phil and Dixie) from the 80's. I suspect that Phil Foglio added some risque stuff, or some double entendres, with a bard as a centerpiece when he was doing Dragon Mag comics ~ given some of his later work, he certainly had a flair for the erotic. The Phil and Dixie strip had a running gag about "sex and D&D" as a future topic, but IIRC it wasn't actually done until the 2e era. Or maybe never.
But here memory fails me.
It wasn't until I got back into the game in 5e that I started hearing/seeing references to the "bard is by default horny" - but I guess that had been running around for a while before I got back into the hobby.

RedMage125
2022-03-24, 09:20 AM
It wasn't until I got back into the game in 5e that I started hearing/seeing references to the "bard is by default horny" - but I guess that had been running around for a while before I got back into the hobby.

That tracks with the time frame I started hearing about it, too. 5e came out a month after I reported to that duty station.

In 2e/3e the stereotype was usually "bards are useless"*.

You might be on to something with the Phil & Dixie idea though...

*Bards did used to be pretty underpowered. But they were a great "5th or 6th" member of the party. Once you had your basic bases covered (front line warrior, Arcane spellcaster, healer, and someone to deal with locks and traps), bards could provide bonuses to everyone. But I also found their versatility useful for very small groups. I once was a player in a 2 man game (3.5e). One guy played a Ranger, I played a bard. We were both stealthy, he had good combat ability, and I had a bit if magic (healing and enchantments).

Catullus64
2022-03-24, 09:32 AM
I think that the trope of the perpetually love-sick poet eternally pining after some new mistress has a lot of literary roots behind it, and isn't necessarily obnoxious (out of character; in-character he necessarily is.) I guess that "perpetually sex-crazed" is the modern touchstone that a lot of people connect to that archetype; but the archetype is grounded in courtly love, which is decidedly erotic but not sexual. Overall, actually, it seems like most role-playing gamers are far more open to the inclusion of sex in their games than they are the inclusion of romance. It's honestly a great weakness of the hobby, in my opinion.

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-24, 09:38 AM
That tracks with the time frame I started hearing about it, too. 5e came out a month after I reported to that duty station. Found a second level bard spell from the 1993 version, that basically provides a bard with about 2 hours worth of arousal but there seem to be a number of rolls involved based on constitution score ... and - A Ha!- I stumble over
"The Gigolo" which is, no surprise, a Bard kit.
Hmm. If this book was in 1993 then that was probably in play some time before that... so I'll guess this little meme/stereotype might have some legs on it, roughly 30 years worth (depending on one's play group, what cons you went to, etc).

Telonius
2022-03-24, 10:00 AM
In the early days, D&D's target audience was (stereotypically) teenage boys. Take that, combine it with a Charisma-based class, and add in a bunch of wish-fulfillment, and you end up with the "seduce anything female" cliché.

How to get over that? Well, first off, don't play a cardboard cutout. Give the person some motivation beyond their trouser titan. You're going to be a very charismatic individual; what you do with that is up to you.

I'd recommend looking into some other depictions of bards to inspire you. The obvious first stop is Tolkien. Middle Earth was literally made from music. Crack open the Silmarillion, and look up Luthien, or Maglor. Head over to Lloyd Alexander and the Prydain Chronicles for Fflewddur Fflam. Go further back into myth, folklore, and history. Read up on Taliesin, and the skalds. Read a translation of Widsith if you can find it. Head to Japan to learn about the warrior-poet samurai. There is an absolute wealth of material that you can draw from, if you make your Bardic Knowledge check.

[EDIT: For "ridiculous/useless fop with a lute" stereotypes, that one goes back at least to the 1950s if not earlier. 1955 had "The Court Jester," a movie starring Danny Kaye, Basil Rathbone, and Angela Lansbury].

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-24, 10:40 AM
Overall, actually, it seems like most role-playing gamers are far more open to the inclusion of sex in their games than they are the inclusion of romance. It's honestly a great weakness of the hobby, in my opinion.

I blame this on the tendency for games to focus on some kind of overarching goal and feature a regularly changed supporting cast. Of course there are games which aren't like that, but it's a common model.

Because, to put it simply, romance takes time and adds complications. Properly roleplaying a romance requires you to spend time roleplaying characters' interactions over multiple encounters, getting laid requires roleplaying one. Plus because a romance is generally viewed as being between two people (:smallmad:) that's going to be time spent spotlighting one member* while the others likely don't do much.

Polyamorous romances either exacerbate or mitigate the issues, depending on how many players are involved.

* Intraparty romances are their own entirely different thing.

Jophiel
2022-03-24, 11:04 AM
Properly roleplaying a romance requires you to spend time roleplaying characters' interactions over multiple encounters, getting laid requires roleplaying one.
Roleplaying a romance requires talking about your (character's) feelings and emotions and mushiness to Bob the DM versus "The princess is HOT and I'm gonna do'er!" I know one was a lot more socially acceptable than the other when I was 15 years old and in Bob's basement.

Anyway, I agree that there's no real mystery to why "Charisma-based musician with charm powers" got saddled with the horny players.

MoiMagnus
2022-03-24, 11:19 AM
How the hell do I get over that weird stigma I feel for bards? I feel like there's so much potential for one but.... yeah I don't really want to be associated with the players who turn their bards into one-dimensional nymphomaniacs. I'm just a very, very frustrated player trying to wrestle with a conundrum.

If your GM allows for small homebrew, you can see with him if you can change the spellcasting score from Charisma to Int or Wis. This would give a Bard that is fundamentally different, more on the "misunderstood artist" side of the trope, which can help with breaking the stigma.

Grod_The_Giant
2022-03-24, 11:51 AM
I blame this on the tendency for games to focus on some kind of overarching goal and feature a regularly changed supporting cast. Of course there are games which aren't like that, but it's a common model.
More then that, it's just a kind of weird thing to participate in, especially if you're at the business end of the social anxiety, asexuality, and/or aromantic spectrum. "Haha, the Bard gets laid again" is an easy joke; "the Bard falls in love" means that the player and GM have to play out scenes of heartfelt emotion and connection, at least to some degree. I dunno about you guys, but I'd feel weird as hell doing that with five other people around drinking beer and arguing about character optimization in the background.

Now add in the possibility that one of you is legit attracted to the other. Even if it's just a minor friend-crush, even if you didn't really notice it before... While I'm by no means saying that you can't go there, just that there are a lot of potential shoals.


(This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood socially anxious asexual nerd)

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-24, 11:52 AM
Roleplaying a romance requires talking about your (character's) feelings and emotions and mushiness to Bob the DM versus "The princess is HOT and I'm gonna do'er!"

Sorry, I've been reading Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine and Glitch recently, I forgot that most games don't mechanically encourage this.

But honestly, I have no issue with immaturity among players. Immaturity has a place, and sometimes can even be the most enjoyable thing for everyone.

Plus thankfully most groups do just fade to black. The other route is a dark path that leads to quadratic equations and d1,000,000 rolls.

ETA: actually, that's important to note. As a polyamorous pansexual in a position where playing in a group including multiple people I'm currently dating is a serious proposition my views on what's appropriate might not be normal.

Must remember I don't have to flirt with the players I'm not sleeping with.

JNAProductions
2022-03-24, 12:33 PM
Sorry, I've been reading Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine and Glitch recently, I forgot that most games don't mechanically encourage this.

But honestly, I have no issue with immaturity among players. Immaturity has a place, and sometimes can even be the most enjoyable thing for everyone.

Plus thankfully most groups do just fade to black. The other route is a dark path that leads to quadratic equations and d1,000,000 rolls.

ETA: actually, that's important to note. As a polyamorous pansexual in a position where playing in a group including multiple people I'm currently dating is a serious proposition my views on what's appropriate might not be normal.

Must remember I don't have to flirt with the players I'm not sleeping with.

I feel both you and Grod.

I've had games with my partners, and they get both romantic and explicit. But, for a more ordinary group (couple of friends shooting the breeze and having fun with dice, or acquaintances at the game shop or on a forum or something) it's not appropriate, generally. Heck, I tried running a game of Masks with some friends and the whole "Teenage romance" thing made it crash and burn!

So, I guess the best thing to say is "Know your group." Some groups don't even want fade-to-black scenes. No sex, no romance, just adventure! Other groups will feel differently-some people might love to explore emotions, but find talking about sex icky with that group. Other people might be all over naughtiness, but find emotional things icky. The important thing is that everyone at the table is comfortable and has fun.

To The OP!
If this group won't let you escape the stereotypes, don't play a bard with them. And probably talk to them about it too-I won't cast any aspersions on them, but as I mentioned above, the important thing is for EVERYONE to feel safe and have fun.

But there are other schools in the sea! If you want to play a bard that isn't a ladies-man, find a game here on the Playground, or on Mythweavers. Put an ad up in your local game shop. Search around.

Above all, happy gaming!

Jay R
2022-03-24, 12:58 PM
All useful advice will boil down to this:

Believe in yourself, and play your character your way.

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-24, 02:23 PM
In the early days, D&D's target audience was (stereotypically) teenage boys. Take that, combine it with a Charisma-based class, and add in a bunch of wish-fulfillment, and you end up with the "seduce anything female" cliché. While CHA was not a casting stat (yet) at that point, we do find this:
Bard (stand alone subclass of Rogue class) AD&D 2e: 12 Min Dex, 13 Min Int, 15 Min Charisma
Bard (basically a Prestige Class of Fighter + Thief, AD&D 1e):
A bard must have scores of 15 or better in the following abilities: strength, wisdom, dexterity and charisma. Furthermore, a bard must have at least a 12 score in intelligence and a 10 in constitution. So yes, Charisma based, and with that high minimum score in Charisma, if one were playing the AD&D 1e UA Comeliness ability, I think a 15 gave a bonus for that ... Charisma of
13-15, + 1 ; for 16-1 7, + 2; for 18, + 3; and for charisma of more than 18, +5.

How to get over that? Well, first off, don't play a cardboard cutout. Give the person some motivation beyond their trouser titan. You're going to be a very charismatic individual; what you do with that is up to you.


For "ridiculous/useless fop with a lute" stereotypes, that one goes back at least to the 1950s if not earlier. 1955 had "The Court Jester," a movie starring Danny Kaye, Basil Rathbone, and Angela Lansbury. Heh, there's a reach back!

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-24, 02:38 PM
Bah! Everybody knows that the pellet with the poison is in the vessel with the pestle, but the chalice from the palace has the brew which is true.

Catullus64
2022-03-24, 02:42 PM
[EDIT: For "ridiculous/useless fop with a lute" stereotypes, that one goes back at least to the 1950s if not earlier. 1955 had "The Court Jester," a movie starring Danny Kaye, Basil Rathbone, and Angela Lansbury].

King of jesters, and jester of kings!

LibraryOgre
2022-03-24, 03:30 PM
Shoot, y'all remember the demotivational posters that were really popular for a while? And even got into geek circles? RPG.Net had a thread of them way back in the day, and I know I contributed one on the horny bard stereotype, that gave bards a 17th level class feature of "**** Anything". That's got to be close to 20 years ago, he said, shifting his grip on his walker.

RedMage125
2022-03-24, 03:43 PM
Shoot, y'all remember the demotivational posters that were really popular for a while? And even got into geek circles? RPG.Net had a thread of them way back in the day, and I know I contributed one on the horny bard stereotype, that gave bards a 17th level class feature of "**** Anything". That's got to be close to 20 years ago, he said, shifting his grip on his walker.

THAT WAS YOU?

"At 17th level, a bard can **** anything. The bard ignores all penalties for differences in (sub)type in seduction rolls, and takes no damage during sex. If he beats the DC by 10 or more points, he doesn't have to call in the morning"

I not only remember that demotivational, I actually had it saved on my personal drive in a folder of my favorites. I just pulled it up and typed that out (best not to share the image, has some sort-of-nudity).

I can't believe that was created by someone I've known on the forums all these years.

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-24, 04:21 PM
Here's a nice picture for the OP. Show it to those who attempt to foist the stereotype on you.

https://i.redd.it/j4cw84or00661.jpg

Enjoy. :smallsmile:

LibraryOgre
2022-03-24, 04:30 PM
THAT WAS YOU?

"At 17th level, a bard can **** anything. The bard ignores all penalties for differences in (sub)type in seduction rolls, and takes no damage during sex. If he beats the DC by 10 or more points, he doesn't have to call in the morning"

I not only remember that demotivational, I actually had it saved on my personal drive in a folder of my favorites. I just pulled it up and typed that out (best not to share the image, has some sort-of-nudity).

I can't believe that was created by someone I've known on the forums all these years.

That was indeed me. Not sure if I was Mark Hall or MrNexx at that point (it's a few years before I picked up Library Ogre).

Lord Raziere
2022-03-24, 05:15 PM
Here's a nice picture for the OP. Show it to those who attempt to foist the stereotype on you.

https://i.redd.it/j4cw84or00661.jpg

Enjoy. :smallsmile:

Bard:
What they think I do:
lay with everyone I see

What I actually do:
5e (I don't know other editions): heal your party members, enhance your rolls, use most skills, break people out of mind-control, learn two spells from any class including fireball, be a translator, infiltrator, detect magic, mind control people, hold person, use shatter, cast sending, cast polymorph, cast dimension door, cast hold monster, cast planar binding, cast scrying, cast true seeing, resurrect people, teleport, power word: stun, and even power word: kill.

5e bards aren't a joke.

5e bards are scary. they're basically wizards that can sing.

Kurald Galain
2022-03-24, 05:42 PM
I know I contributed one on the horny bard stereotype, that gave bards a 17th level class feature of "**** Anything". That's got to be close to 20 years ago, he said, shifting his grip on his walker.
Well that's funny. I just google for that "F*k Anything" motivational, and it uses an image from "The bard" image series (https://i.imgur.com/hHI0y6D.jpeg) that I just linked before (in the debate that this bard stereotype started in The Witcher). Small internet, no?

So anyway, artist Fredrik Anderson has a whole parody series on Elfwood of images a bard that, well, f*ks anything. I recommend checking them out :smallbiggrin: (but not at work) (yes, the one I linked earlier is safe)

RedMage125
2022-03-24, 06:07 PM
(in the debate that this bard stereotype started in The Witcher).

Once again, I never said "the bard stereotype started with the Witcher". That is a false statement. If that's the Straw Man you feel like setting up so you can knock it down, you do you. But don't pretend like you were actually contesting someone who actually thought that.

If you doubt, do a "ctrl-F" search for "witcher" in this thread, you will see my post, which was in no way a claim about "where the stereotype started from".

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-24, 06:21 PM
I think he's part of the reason the trope became a problem in the first place; people who played The Witcher games (and didn't want to play a Geralt clone) thought Dandelion was amusing and copied him with their own bard PCs, slowly flanderizing the concept with each iteration, so you start with a bard who gets himself into trouble because he can't say no to a pretty face and his friends have to bail him out of that trouble from time to time to a person whose literal every other thought is about women and gets honestly creepy about it.

Did a control-f this post might not say it originated the stereotype (although I think it edges on it) but it's giving it a lot of credit for a trope that existed before it.

Bare in mind Dragon Age purposefully played with the archetype a mere two years later, although admittedly you could point just as much at the James Bond spy, and The Bard's Tale (2004 game, not the classic one) three years earlier. I really don't think it took until the late noughties for lots of people to put 'wandering roguish minstrel' and 'ladies like bad boys' together and get to 'bards sleep with anything possessing boobs'.

In fact I expect it happened about five minutes after the first wandering roguish minstrel appeared.

RedMage125
2022-03-24, 06:30 PM
Did a control-f this post might not say it originated the stereotype (although I think it edges on it) but it's giving it a lot of credit for a trope that existed before it.

Bare in mind Dragon Age purposefully played with the archetype a mere two years later, although admittedly you could point just as much at the James Bond spy, and The Bard's Tale (2004 game, not the classic one) three years earlier. I really don't think it took until the late noughties for lots of people to put 'wandering roguish minstrel' and 'ladies like bad boys' together and get to 'bards sleep with anything possessing boobs'.

In fact I expect it happened about five minutes after the first wandering roguish minstrel appeared.

And he was replying to me, who only brought it up as an analog to one of my early bards I had mentioned.

I quite agree that Dandelion isn't much like the current "horny bard" stereotype. He's mostly focused on his art and helping his friends. Getting into trouble with ladies (and/or the husbands of said ladies) is more like something that happens 20% of the time or less, I would say.

But then Kurald replied to me, and said "So, nope. Not the witcher. It's older than you think."

Which was never a claim I was even remotely making. And it's irritating when someone says "Umm...Ackshually...[this thing you weren't even saying] is wrong."

It's like...yeah, bro...I know. That's why I never made such a claim.

Pauly
2022-03-24, 10:19 PM
Any traveling occupation with what translates to high CHA gets labelled as horndogs.

I’m old enough to remember the ‘traveling salesman” jokes. Gypsies have been dabbed with that brush too, one example being the titular character in Carmen by Bizet, another being Esmerelda in The Hunchback of Notre Dame (although in HoND it is played as Esmerelda being tarred by common belief not her actual character). In Roman times actors were treated as maybe one step up from prostitutes.

Just because the perception that members of a particular group are generally horndogs exist doesn’t mean that this particular member is a horndog.

TeChameleon
2022-03-25, 01:50 AM
How to get over the stigma?

Honestly, if you're curious enough that you want to get over the stigma, my approach would be just jump in with both feet. Pick out a character concept, roll things up, and if any of the other players at your table just won't let things go, then (with DM permission for PvP, of course, if that's not a regular thing with your group) beat seven shades out of their character.

And then heal them afterwards :smallamused:

King of Nowhere
2022-03-25, 03:09 AM
ETA: also yeah, any instrument but the lute. I tend towards flutes or pianos.


Your bard travels around and goes dungeoning while carrying a piano?
Must be quite the sight. Besides using it for bardic music, your allies could also use it for cover xD

Rynjin
2022-03-25, 05:16 AM
Your bard travels around and goes dungeoning while carrying a piano?
Must be quite the sight. Besides using it for bardic music, your allies could also use it for cover xD

There are actually "hand pianos". Sort of. It's called a kalimba.

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-6mh3g0at/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/16924/26585/thmp_sbs__44673.1424291764.jpg?c=2

Pretty cool instrument for a Bard IMO.

RE: The recentness of the "Bards are horny" stereotype, I think it comes down to newer gamers getting the wrong impressions of old memes. 5e in particular has a lot of people who have only ever heard of D&D via old stories, memes, and /tg/ archives, which can give them a false impression of what the game is actually like.

It's the same reason there has been a wholly unironic resurgence in "Natural 20s can do anything" memes, that I've had to gently wean some new players off of when teaching them Pathfinder. One of my friends had a minor meltdown when he got his first critical threat in Pathfinder; a moment of confusion and irritation when he had to confirm, followed by full blown (if short lived) anger when he missed due to concealment.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-25, 06:42 AM
Your bard travels around and goes dungeoning while carrying a piano?
Must be quite the sight. Besides using it for bardic music, your allies could also use it for cover xD

The three retainers from the Noble background also use it for cover. And complain about having to carry it.

Side note: I'm disappointed this thread isn't titled 'how to get over the hump'.

Jophiel
2022-03-25, 08:49 AM
There are actually "hand pianos". Sort of. It's called a kalimba.
I'm disappointed that it's not a keytar

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-25, 12:10 PM
5e (I don't know other editions): heal your party members, enhance your rolls, use most skills, break people out of mind-control, learn two spells from any class including fireball, be a translator, infiltrator, detect magic, mind control people, hold person, use shatter, cast sending, cast polymorph, cast dimension door, cast hold monster, cast planar binding, cast scrying, cast true seeing, resurrect people, teleport, power word: stun, and even power word: kill.

5e bards aren't a joke.

5e bards are scary. they're basically wizards that can sing. And they can cast foresight on a martial ally who can then go forth and shred. :smalleek:

Any traveling occupation with what translates to high CHA gets labelled as horndogs. Weirdly, my 18 Cha paladin gets no such nonsense from the rest of the party.

In Roman times actors were treated as maybe one step up from prostitutes.
Not just in Roman times.

Just because the perception that members of a particular group are generally horndogs exist doesn’t mean that this particular member is a horndog. So not gonna expand on this.

How to get over the stigma?

Honestly, if you're curious enough that you want to get over the stigma, my approach would be just jump in with both feet. Pick out a character concept, roll things up, and if any of the other players at your table just won't let things go, then (with DM permission for PvP, of course, if that's not a regular thing with your group) beat seven shades out of their character.

And then heal them afterwards :smallamused:*snigger*

Side note: I'm disappointed this thread isn't titled 'how to get over the hump'. *golf clap* :smallsmile:

Archpaladin Zousha
2022-03-25, 12:40 PM
Did a control-f this post might not say it originated the stereotype (although I think it edges on it) but it's giving it a lot of credit for a trope that existed before it.

Bare in mind Dragon Age purposefully played with the archetype a mere two years later, although admittedly you could point just as much at the James Bond spy, and The Bard's Tale (2004 game, not the classic one) three years earlier. I really don't think it took until the late noughties for lots of people to put 'wandering roguish minstrel' and 'ladies like bad boys' together and get to 'bards sleep with anything possessing boobs'.

In fact I expect it happened about five minutes after the first wandering roguish minstrel appeared.
I wasn't saying it was the original. I was saying it was one of the first examples to have more mainstream exposure. There's examples older than that, yes, but they're much more niche and from a time when D&D itself was also much more niche.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-25, 02:50 PM
Weirdly, my 18 Cha paladin gets no such nonsense from the rest of the party.

It's the 'traditionally Lawful Good' thing, as well as the religious thing, which many players rightly or wrongly link to conservative values in regards to relationships.

This is despite the class, at least in 3.X and 5e, being the class most set up to avoid most potential consequences. Plus they're prepared casters, making things such as magical contraception much less of an investment. It's not like every deity or religion is against such things anyway.

Then there's the entire 'knight in shining/tarnished' armour deal. You're not supposed to wander from town to town playing the lute and seducing the barmaid via the medium of poetry. You're meant to be going from tourney to tourney jousting on horseback and professing your love for a lady via the medium of poetry. No similarities at all!

Pauly
2022-03-25, 10:57 PM
Weirdly, my 18 Cha paladin gets no such nonsense from the rest of the party.
:

Maybe your party should read a bit more Medieval poetry. Although the source literature for the paladin class is courtly love, often tragic and unrequited, (eg Lancelot and Gwenivere, Ulrich von Litchenstein’s Frauendienst).
The party should be giving grief to the Paladin for falling in live at the drop of the hat only for the lady to play hard to get

Lord Raziere
2022-03-26, 04:08 AM
Then there's the entire 'knight in shining/tarnished' armour deal. You're not supposed to wander from town to town playing the lute and seducing the barmaid via the medium of poetry. You're meant to be going from tourney to tourney jousting on horseback and professing your love for a lady via the medium of poetry. No similarities at all!

and your more useful than a bard: you can fight and protect people, your oath probably ensures your a good person, you have a horse which means romantic rides across the countryside and can take care of something other than yourself, possibly a squire which is more responsibility points, and you have a good chance of becoming a lord because of your acts of valor and thus a way to get rich; take out a big monster or some other enemy and you could get some land, title and a manor!

shining knights are a big subject of romance for a reason.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-26, 05:11 AM
and your more useful than a bard: you can fight and protect people, your oath probably ensures your a good person, you have a horse which means romantic rides across the countryside and can take care of something other than yourself, possibly a squire which is more responsibility points, and you have a good chance of becoming a lord because of your acts of valor and thus a way to get rich; take out a big monster or some other enemy and you could get some land, title and a manor!

shining knights are a big subject of romance for a reason.

Yeah, chivalric romance is great. It's also significantly less sex focused than modern romance subgenres, or pretty much any modern media aimed at adults tbh. The Paladin is the core class which most clearly draws from such stories, and tends to have that reflected in their stereotypes.

You know, a system-generic book that tackled maturely handling romance in a game would be nice. Probably including guidelines for setting boundaries, separating player and character feelings, how to practically use something like a safeword system to back away from things people find uncomfortable, and advice on how to create games around romance (PCs as divine matchmakers for example). Maybe I'll take a punt at writing something like that.

RedMage125
2022-03-26, 08:33 AM
Yeah, chivalric romance is great. It's also significantly less sex focused than modern romance subgenres, or pretty much any modern media aimed at adults tbh. The Paladin is the core class which most clearly draws from such stories, and tends to have that reflected in their stereotypes.
I would hazard a guess that it has a lot to do with target audience and goals of the authors. Chivalric romance was aimed at adults, usually men, as women were less commonly given an education. The goals being to try and instill values of virtue, nobility, chastity, etc.

Modern "romance" aimed at adults started decades ago, primarily aimed at domestic homemakers. The goal was to sell copies, by giving them an escapist fantasy, and steamy sex-filled literature was just that, in a time when America was particularly prudish.



You know, a system-generic book that tackled maturely handling romance in a game would be nice. Probably including guidelines for setting boundaries, separating player and character feelings, how to practically use something like a safeword system to back away from things people find uncomfortable, and advice on how to create games around romance (PCs as divine matchmakers for example). Maybe I'll take a punt at writing something like that.

That sounds extremely challenging. Especially because of the wide variety of ages (and maturity levels) that TTRPGs cater to. That would be my only advice if you do attempt this. Remember that not everyone who plays this game is a mature adult, and some are teenagers and younger adults, to whom "love/romance" equates to "sex", and that such may be a thing they find funny. I would say lean into it. Because "love/romance/sex" can absolutely be funny. Maybe a whole section involving "lighthearted/humor" would be appropriate.

Other than that, sounds like a good undertaking. If you're looking for someone to edit, hit me up.

Bohandas
2022-03-26, 10:27 AM
But where the hell did people get the idea that these people who are (a lot of the time) supposed to be seemingly classy musicians and poets, are just these irrepressible sexfiends who want to squeeze everything they come in contact with?

Probably from the rock music industry. The rocker who scores with tons of hot groupies is a stereotype.


There are actually "hand pianos". Sort of. It's called a kalimba.

If you're willing to be anachronistic the keytar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keytar) is also portable


One of my friends had a minor meltdown when he got his first critical threat in Pathfinder; a moment of confusion and irritation when he had to confirm, followed by full blown (if short lived) anger when he missed due to concealment.

Wouldn't it make more sense to roll concealment first, so that if it misses you can just skip the attack roll which, as demonstrated here, is the more complicated step

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-26, 12:01 PM
It's the 'traditionally Lawful Good' thing You would be wrong to make the assumption that my D&D 5e Watcher Paladin is a Lawful Good heavily armored, religious archetype from AD&D 1e. He's a Dex based, stealth enabled operative (Criminal/Spy background) for the coastal city where he went to school and where he joined the local militia. (Medium Armor Master feat makes his half plate not have stealth penalties). Part of his approach is to infiltrate or at least make contact with smugglers in the pursuit of the larger objectives of beating back the extra planar contamination in the part of the world where we our party is operating. One of the other players rather cluelessly went off and made a (bad) deal with a smuggler faction alone (after I offered to be his wingman) and he made some inane remark about assuming I would not like smugglers. To which I replied {roughly}
"Your assumptions are wrong, and next time, maybe you ought to work as part of a team"

Then there's the entire 'knight in shining/tarnished' armour deal. You're not supposed to wander from town to town playing the lute and seducing the barmaid via the medium of poetry. Why not?
That's not the only way to be attractive to one's possible romantic interests. A 5e Paladin of the Ancients is very likely to be quite the Cassanova/Romeo if played with that approach. (Take a good look at the description of that Oath). Throw in the Entertainer Background and you've got a traveling knight who can certainly attract the attention of romantic possibilities rich, poor, or somewhere in between in character.


Maybe your party should read a bit more Medieval poetry. Although the source literature for the paladin class is courtly love, often tragic and unrequited, (eg Lancelot and Gwenivere, Ulrich von Litchenstein’s Frauendienst).
The party should be giving grief to the Paladin for falling in live at the drop of the hat only for the lady to play hard to get FWIW, there's a novel ("All Things Are Lights" Robert Shea) that covers that approach to courting/courtship/courtly love in the early troubador era. Been years since I read it, but I think it captures the spirit that you allude to. (The historical context is around the time of the Albigensian Crusade; one of the major secondary characters is a Knight Templar who'd been to the Holy Land but was back in France now).

Rynjin
2022-03-26, 01:40 PM
Wouldn't it make more sense to roll concealment first, so that if it misses you can just skip the attack roll which, as demonstrated here, is the more complicated step

No, because there's a lot of stuff that triggers off the attack roll. Deflects, "if the enemy misses" effects, etc., so it's important to get the attack roll in first.

It may have also been Mirror Image, not sure.

Telok
2022-03-26, 02:37 PM
That would be my only advice if you do attempt this. Remember that not everyone who plays this game is a mature adult, and some are teenagers and younger adults, to whom "love/romance" equates to "sex", and that such may be a thing they find funny. I would say lean into it. Because "love/romance/sex" can absolutely be funny. Maybe a whole section involving "lighthearted/humor" would be appropriate.

Apropos of nothing, apparently the oldest recorded joke is from ancient Sumeria or something and around 3500+ years old. Naturally its a fart joke.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-26, 03:03 PM
I would hazard a guess that it has a lot to do with target audience and goals of the authors. Chivalric romance was aimed at adults, usually men, as women were less commonly given an education. The goals being to try and instill values of virtue, nobility, chastity, etc.

Modern "romance" aimed at adults started decades ago, primarily aimed at domestic homemakers. The goal was to sell copies, by giving them an escapist fantasy, and steamy sex-filled literature was just that, in a time when America was particularly prudish.

Yeah, different meaning of the word 'romance' as well. I just think it's very important to note that the Paladin is from the genre, even if indirectly.


That sounds extremely challenging. Especially because of the wide variety of ages (and maturity levels) that TTRPGs cater to. That would be my only advice if you do attempt this. Remember that not everyone who plays this game is a mature adult, and some are teenagers and younger adults, to whom "love/romance" equates to "sex", and that such may be a thing they find funny. I would say lean into it. Because "love/romance/sex" can absolutely be funny. Maybe a whole section involving "lighthearted/humor" would be appropriate.

Other than that, sounds like a good undertaking. If you're looking for someone to edit, hit me up.

I mean, the current plan is to talk about it as a possibility, but not give much advice beyond 'if you're all fine with it than totally go for that'. I personally enjoy immature sexual humour, but I don't think most people need help getting it.

And sex, sex is funny. It's also something that can be very personal and awkward, which I suppose is most of what makes it funny. But people find it funny in different amounts, and dealing with that is definitely worth discussing.

It's not much beyond a rough idea and a working title (Nights of the Rose) at this point, but if I do get a rough draft I'll probably post it on the Playground.


You would be wrong to make the assumption that my D&D 5e Watcher Paladin is a Lawful Good heavily armored, religious archetype from AD&D 1e. He's a Dex based, stealth enabled operative (Criminal/Spy background) for the coastal city where he went to school and where he joined the local militia. (Medium Armor Master feat makes his half plate not have stealth penalties). Part of his approach is to infiltrate or at least make contact with smugglers in the pursuit of the larger objectives of beating back the extra planar contamination in the part of the world where we our party is operating. One of the other players rather cluelessly went off and made a (bad) deal with a smuggler faction alone (after I offered to be his wingman) and he made some inane remark about assuming I would not like smugglers. To which I replied {roughly}
"Your assumptions are wrong, and next time, maybe you ought to work as part of a team"

Cool, your dude's not a stereotype. But I wasn't talking about your dude beyond the entire 'why aren't Paladins stereotypically horndogs' bit.

Because that is the Paladin stereotype. You can play a Paladin who doesn't fit it, but you can also play an asexual Bard who's only music related skill is tap dancing (probably while juggling and on fire). But your story does fit with people assuming Paladins to be KiSA and that being a reason they're not sleeping with everybody.


Why not?
That's not the only way to be attractive to one's possible romantic interests. A 5e Paladin of the Ancients is very likely to be quite the Cassanova/Romeo if played with that approach. (Take a good look at the description of that Oath). Throw in the Entertainer Background and you've got a traveling knight who can certainly attract the attention of romantic possibilities rich, poor, or somewhere in between in character.

Yes they can, and a 2e Paladin could do it perfectly well as well (17 Charisma goes a long way). Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's what people assume.

You can play an atheistic Cleric. It's not what 90% of players expect you to do, but you can!

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-27, 08:19 AM
Because that is the Paladin stereotype. I had forgotten how entrenched paladin antipathy is on GiTP forums. It comes off as a bad case of group think. Why that's not a good thing I'll leave as an exercise to the reader.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-27, 08:53 AM
I had forgotten how entrenched paladin antipathy is on GiTP forums. It comes off as a bad case of group think. Why that's not a good thing I'll leave as an exercise to the reader.

This is a thread about the prevalent Bard stereotype. When you said 'my Paladin doesn't get the same treatment' I pointed out it's because they have their own stereotypes which don't include those elements.

Yes your Paladin is different. That's great, I have no issue with that, different Paladins are cool and I personally have a deep love of the stereotypical knightly Paladin. That doesn't change the fact that Paladins aren't assumed to be horndogs because they're assumed to be knights/funkillers (delete as appropriate). A Paladin's Charisma is assumed to be in the impassioned speeches she makes to her soldiers, not the fact that she has an ex in every town she's visited.

As an aside, all those stereotypically knight behaviours I mentioned above? They work pretty well on a Bard build except for maybe the jousting. That would also be a really cool character to see.

Jophiel
2022-03-27, 10:04 AM
I had forgotten how entrenched paladin antipathy is on GiTP forums.
I don't really get that. Paladins aren't thought of as horny skirt-chasers because they already filled a spot in the public imagination as the knight in shining armor. In fact, the spot they classically fill is incompatible with the horndog bard stereotype as the fairy tale knight is chivalrous and stories like Lancelot are portrayed as moral failings.

You can have a paladin who breaks the archetype mold and put them next to your intellectual pacifist barbarian, atheist cleric and your Druid CEO of a strip-mining and clear-cut logging consortium and that's all good. But we're discussing archetypes and stereotypes and why high Charisma bards got the horny label and high Charisma paladins did not.

Telonius
2022-03-27, 02:04 PM
I think the Law/Chaos axis has a lot to do with it. At least in 3.x, Paladins have to be lawful, unless they're one of the variant paladins; and Bards can't be lawful. One part of Lawful is that it tends to support the social order. Most fantasy societies (not all, most) are presented as at least kind of prude-ish, with monogamy being the ideal. That's kind of hard to square with a Paladin who seduces anything that moves. There would be exceptions - some presentations of Elves, ports in a nautical campaign, maybe other non-Human creatures that arrange things differently, that sort of thing. But those are the exceptions, not the norm.

Bards tend towards Chaotic. They don't have to be Chaotic; perfectly possible to be a Neutral Bard. But breaking societal rules about who you can and can't sleep with is a very Chaotic thing to do.

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-27, 10:19 PM
This is a thread about the prevalent Bard stereotype. When you said 'my Paladin doesn't get the same treatment' I pointed out it's because they have their own stereotypes which don't include those elements. And you'd be wrong.

I don't really get that.
I see that being unable to see past a very blinkered point of view isn't being helped, so I'll not waste further time on this.

Pauly
2022-03-28, 01:15 AM
I don't really get that. Paladins aren't thought of as horny skirt-chasers because they already filled a spot in the public imagination as the knight in shining armor. In fact, the spot they classically fill is incompatible with the horndog bard stereotype as the fairy tale knight is chivalrous and stories like Lancelot are portrayed as moral failings.
t.

Well that’s the Victorian re-skinning of the stories. In the original era marriage was seen as a business proposition, and only peasants could afford to marry for love. Marriage in the knightly and higher classes was for heirs, alliances, creating favor with patrons and so on.

Courtly love was seen as where knights would find love, and that love didn’t have to by the eternal soulmates in this life and the next. In some of the stories the love is never consumated. Lots of the poems have tragic denouements when the lovers get discovered.

Also period accounts lament how the current generation of knightsare horndogs, who don’t follow the traditions of courtly love.

Coming back to D&D, I think the bard already had the traveling salesman gig by the time the paladin was formed. Since the stereotype was already claimed Paladins avoided the wandering palace of VD stigma.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-28, 03:25 AM
And you'd be wrong.

Then please explain how the stereotype of Paladins is that they're horndogs.

Otherwise I'll assume you're being obtuse on purpose

KorvinStarmast
2022-03-28, 07:35 AM
Then please explain how the stereotype of Paladins is that they're horndogs.

Otherwise I'll assume you're being obtuse on purpose This particular thread drift has become zero value added, so I decline to waste further time on that, as noted above. And yes, this thread is about bards, so let's return to our local programming on that. :smallwink:

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-28, 08:57 AM
This particular thread drift has become zero value added, so I decline to waste further time on that, as noted above. And yes, this thread is about bards, so let's return to our local programming on that. :smallwink:

No, because you've been calling us wrong for saying why the Paladin stereotype is that they're not horndogs. So you can ****ing explain how that is the Paladin stereotype.

Jophiel
2022-03-28, 10:40 AM
Well that’s the Victorian re-skinning of the stories.
Well, sure. But that's the version people from 1970-2020 are most likely familiar with when they're introduced to the concept of a paladin and the version most likely to fill their head-space to start.

I don't think it had anything to so with bards already filling the space. The 1e Paladin was up front and center with its iconic "Paladin in Hell" illustration. The 1e Bard was a literal afterthought located in the appendix. I have to believe people had their archetype of Paladin nailed down long before Bard was considered.

Princess Kairi
2022-03-28, 04:06 PM
So.. this is gonna sound like a dumb question- and explanation, I think, but I'd like some insight or advice.

Bards. They interest me- or at least, their concept interests me, and I'm honestly kinda curious about playing one in an upcoming campaign. Still considering it, or other class options.
My problem lies with........ other people.
Or more precisely, what other players have done to the Bard as a class. Other players have ruined bards for me almost completely but consistently. My god.

Why do so many countless players turn their bards into horndogs? Where did they get this idea that bards absolutely have to **** every single thing in existence? Why do people think or assume that bards have to be... flirty ****s who just can't keep their damn hands to themselves? Look, I know they're described as 'charismatic'. I know their class stat is Charisma. But where the hell did people get the idea that these people who are (a lot of the time) supposed to be seemingly classy musicians and poets, are just these irrepressible sexfiends who want to squeeze everything they come in contact with? Every single bard I've heard about (or had the displeasure of playing with in campaigns) hardly ever did anything other than flirting or trying to seduce or **** anything that had an orifice.

Other players have ruined bards for me such that this stereotype alone keeps me away from it and I don't exactly want to be associated with...... that kind of player. They always toss out the music, poetry, art, swordsmanship, and practically 95% of 'actually being a character' in exchange for.... being a bimbo or himbo.

So.... apologies for venting like that, but, to my original intended question.

How the hell do I get over that weird stigma I feel for bards? I feel like there's so much potential for one but.... yeah I don't really want to be associated with the players who turn their bards into one-dimensional nymphomaniacs. I'm just a very, very frustrated player trying to wrestle with a conundrum.

Just because that's the way some people play it doesn't mean you have to play it that way! When describing your bard to other describe who they are and what they do! My most fun campaign was as a bard who used her charisma to do business and played at her own banquets to encourage donations. People make original character ideas all the time and most classes and races don't fit into boxes. You can play a buff wizard or an intelligent fighter and that's truly the beauty of DND is making your character who you'd like them to be. :smallbiggrin:

MoiMagnus
2022-03-31, 12:01 PM
This is a thread about the prevalent Bard stereotype. When you said 'my Paladin doesn't get the same treatment' I pointed out it's because they have their own stereotypes which don't include those elements.

Yes your Paladin is different. That's great, I have no issue with that, different Paladins are cool and I personally have a deep love of the stereotypical knightly Paladin. That doesn't change the fact that Paladins aren't assumed to be horndogs because they're assumed to be knights/funkillers (delete as appropriate). A Paladin's Charisma is assumed to be in the impassioned speeches she makes to her soldiers, not the fact that she has an ex in every town she's visited.

As an aside, all those stereotypically knight behaviours I mentioned above? They work pretty well on a Bard build except for maybe the jousting. That would also be a really cool character to see.

As an anecdote, I've seen more horny Paladins than horny Bards at my tables. Sure it's biased by the fact that I've seen many more Paladins than Bards.

But it went to the point that the Paladin is stereotypically assumed to be a masochist at our table (always getting injured instead of others, and enjoying it), which often degenerate. While less than half of the Bards I've seen follow the horny stereotype.

Anonymouswizard
2022-03-31, 12:26 PM
As an anecdote, I've seen more horny Paladins than horny Bards at my tables. Sure it's biased by the fact that I've seen many more Paladins than Bards.

But it went to the point that the Paladin is stereotypically assumed to be a masochist at our table (always getting injured instead of others, and enjoying it), which often degenerate. While less than half of the Bards I've seen follow the horny stereotype.

Heh, yeah I can see some tables making that connection, or the fact that many knights were promiscuous. It's just not the one I see a lot.

I actually like this as a reason to view Paladins as horndogs. Of course I'd also like to see more people use Julie d'Aubigny as an excuse to make high-Cha promiscuous singing Fighters (because despite the tales of her exploits sounding more like a stereotypical Bard she feels like a Fighter to me).

Leon
2022-04-02, 03:44 AM
Then please explain how the stereotype of Paladins is that they're horndogs.

Well there was this one time my Paladin fell for being too persistent on a waitress in Temple of Elemental Evil cRPG...

butter
2022-04-11, 09:28 AM
Found a second level bard spell from the 1993 version, that basically provides a bard with about 2 hours worth of arousal but there seem to be a number of rolls involved based on constitution score ... and - A Ha!- I stumble over
"The Gigolo" which is, no surprise, a Bard kit.
Hmm. If this book was in 1993 then that was probably in play some time before that... so I'll guess this little meme/stereotype might have some legs on it, roughly 30 years worth (depending on one's play group, what cons you went to, etc).

Which books are you referencing? I looked in Complete Bard's Handbook from AD&D2e and didn't see a gigolo kit. Also what is the spell you mention? Having started in the 2e era I'm curious how much of this stereotype existed then. I don't remember seeing these kinds of references until sometime in 3.5 and it seemed like it came from nowhere.

The first time I really recall the bard being promiscuous was in that movie Gamers 2: Dorkness Rising, but obviously they were playing off an existing stereotype rather than creating it.

Anonymouswizard
2022-04-11, 10:11 AM
Which books are you referencing? I looked in Complete Bard's Handbook from AD&D2e and didn't see a gigolo kit. Also what is the spell you mention? Having started in the 2e era I'm curious how much of this stereotype existed then. I don't remember seeing these kinds of references until sometime in 3.5 and it seemed like it came from nowhere.

Fairly certain it's the Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. It's a fan web thing, because I don't think there were any published D&D sex books until the BoEF.

From what I've read it's a relatively immature take on the topic, the 3e version is about the same, and the Pathfinder 1e version maybe a little bit less mature. It's not terrible though, roughly on par with that 5e sex homebrew floating around (i.e. it's immature, but it's serious).

Not like I can complain though, I once tried to write accurate rules for hormonal cycles.

Slipjig
2022-04-11, 11:20 AM
It sounds like somebody played their bard as one-note comic relief. That can be funny for a session or two, but even a well-executed joke gets stale if you repeat it ad nauseum.

If it's an expectation at your table that the Bard never sleeps alone, have your Bard be in a committed relationship (or a tragic backstory, or an unrequited love), and none of the hussies your DM throws at you are worth paying attention to.

Tawmis
2022-04-11, 12:43 PM
How the hell do I get over that weird stigma I feel for bards? I feel like there's so much potential for one but.... yeah I don't really want to be associated with the players who turn their bards into one-dimensional nymphomaniacs. I'm just a very, very frustrated player trying to wrestle with a conundrum.

Be the change you want to see.

All in all, play the character how you want it to be played. The rest of the world outside, has no impact on you and how you want to portray your character.

Should every barbarian be a raging beast? Or can they have some depth, and perhaps love the simple things in life?

Does every fighter have to love fighting, or is it because, their life was rough and tragic, and this is all they're good at - as much as they hate it.

Make the character you want and go forward and adventure.

butter
2022-04-11, 02:14 PM
So.. this is gonna sound like a dumb question- and explanation, I think, but I'd like some insight or advice.

Bards. They interest me- or at least, their concept interests me, and I'm honestly kinda curious about playing one in an upcoming campaign. Still considering it, or other class options.
My problem lies with........ other people.
Or more precisely, what other players have done to the Bard as a class. Other players have ruined bards for me almost completely but consistently. My god.

Why do so many countless players turn their bards into horndogs? Where did they get this idea that bards absolutely have to **** every single thing in existence? Why do people think or assume that bards have to be... flirty ****s who just can't keep their damn hands to themselves? Look, I know they're described as 'charismatic'. I know their class stat is Charisma. But where the hell did people get the idea that these people who are (a lot of the time) supposed to be seemingly classy musicians and poets, are just these irrepressible sexfiends who want to squeeze everything they come in contact with? Every single bard I've heard about (or had the displeasure of playing with in campaigns) hardly ever did anything other than flirting or trying to seduce or **** anything that had an orifice.

Other players have ruined bards for me such that this stereotype alone keeps me away from it and I don't exactly want to be associated with...... that kind of player. They always toss out the music, poetry, art, swordsmanship, and practically 95% of 'actually being a character' in exchange for.... being a bimbo or himbo.

So.... apologies for venting like that, but, to my original intended question.

How the hell do I get over that weird stigma I feel for bards? I feel like there's so much potential for one but.... yeah I don't really want to be associated with the players who turn their bards into one-dimensional nymphomaniacs. I'm just a very, very frustrated player trying to wrestle with a conundrum.
Well, you say there's a stigma and that others have ruined the class for you. My first question is: What do you like most about bards or why do you want to play one?

Focus on those things! Roll a bard and examine which things seem really cool and take note of things that don't. Keep in mind the rulebooks don't present the bard as a nymphomaniac, so think about the way the canon texts describe bards.

Who are examples of historical bards?
The Scandinavian "skald", the Celtic "bard", Ancient Greek "poets", the Medieval European "minstrel/troubador" are all differing examples you can mold your character from. Some google-fu about them will certainly result in a few cool ideas.

Who are examples of bards in media?
Maybe the Sirens from Greco-Roman mythology? Creatures who sang to Sailors causing them(the sailors) to drown themselves.

The pied piper might qualify as a bard.

Your DM may let you tweak an existing bard kit. AD&D2e had several; things like jester, juggler, riddler, actor, and mountebank. It takes some tinkering if you go this route, but it can work. Again, talk to your DM before putting in that kind of effort.

At the end of the day, if it's a class you want to play-- just play it and do it the way you see fit. The more you're able to see the positive sides of the class and how they appeal to you - the sooner the stigma will vanish.

Pauly
2022-04-11, 02:52 PM
Why do so many countless players turn their bards into horndogs? Where did they get this idea that bards absolutely have to **** every single thing in existence? Why do people think or assume that bards have to be... flirty ****s who just can't keep their damn hands to themselves? Look, I know they're described as 'charismatic'. I know their class stat is Charisma. But where the hell did people get the idea that these people who are (a lot of the time) supposed to be seemingly classy musicians and poets, are just these irrepressible sexfiends who want to squeeze everything they come in contact with? Every single bard I've heard about (or had the displeasure of playing with in campaigns) hardly ever did anything other than flirting or trying to seduce or **** anything that had an orifice.
.

Do you mean classy as in classical music? Perhaps they were thinking of Franz List https://www.factinate.com/people/franz-liszt/

KorvinStarmast
2022-04-12, 09:02 PM
A bard and his band (https://youtu.be/m_lQ0H4zZEA?list=RDMM)
Just gonna leave that there. :smallsmile:

Kraynic
2022-04-12, 09:51 PM
Do you mean classy as in classical music? Perhaps they were thinking of Franz List https://www.factinate.com/people/franz-liszt/

And here I thought someone would eventually bring up Beethoven, who had so many children because he didn't have enough stops in his organ.