Brutal Critical, musing on the theme

[PhoenixPhyre]

We all know that Brutal Critical is a badly designed feature. It procs rarely (1/20 attack rolls) and when it procs, it does very little (on average 3.5 or 5.5 damage), and its procs are random.

The theme of being able to just occasionally hit really really hard, however, is on point.

So thinking of thematic replacements:

1) The "more numbers" approach. Instead of adding an extra damage die, it maximizes the dice. Instead of possibly rolling 2 1s on those 2d12 (yes, I am assuming a greataxe because theme here), you get 24 + modifier on a crit. With Brutal Critical 2 adding another maximized die.

Still random, still doesn't probably proc enough. But big enough numbers, I think. Maybe.

2) Replace it by "when you crit with a melee attack, the target gains vulnerability to all damage (including the triggering hit) until the start of your next turn". It roughly doubles the damage from that hit, plus leaves them open to severe punishment by your allies. Still random though, which isn't great.

3) Do stock, except say that you can also choose to trigger a critical hit, but it ends your current rage at the end of your turn, with the second level letting you delay that for a round. Not random, but punishing to use. Meh. Don't like. A vanilla (even with Brutal Critical's extra die) crit just isn't threatening enough without a decent source of lots of extra dice (such as sneak attack or divine smite).

4) Do #1, with the trigger option from #3.

5) Do #2, but with the trigger option from #3.

6-7) Do #4 or #5, except give it charges/rest (1x/SR?) instead of ending your rage.

8) Separate it from triggering on critical hits entirely. Possibly "When you hit an enemy, you can choose to unbalance them. Until the end of your next turn, any weapon attack scores a critical hit on a X+ instead of the normal value. Y/rest uses.". With the improved version lowering X (say X = 15 base and X = 10 improved). A potent debuff if you have a paladin or a rogue in the party who can capitalize on a tasty crit.

The important thing is to keep the thematics of
a) being brutal
b) hitting really hard (or letting your allies hit really hard)/doing something with critical hits
while getting the mechanics out of the gutter.

[animorte]

It could be treated similar to a Rogue's sneak attack or 3.5 Coup de Gras, when the target is incapacitated it's an automatic critical.

Or a variation on what you said. If the Barbarian has advantage on the attack they can choose to automatically crit 1/SR while maximizing the die.

[loki_ragnarock]

Is it 1 in 20 when taking into account at will advantage?

I haven't done that math in a minute, but... doesn't advantage almost double the likelihood of a crit?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Is it 1 in 20 when taking into account at will advantage?

I haven't done that math in a minute, but... doesn't advantage almost double the likelihood of a crit?

Even so, it's still negligible as a damage increase.

Rough numbers: Adding 5 damage 10% of the time is a 0.5 damage per attack increase. That's...tiny. When just using GWM, using Reckless to compensate for the accuracy penalty is more like a +7-+8 damage per attack increase. Brutal Critical is off by an order of magnitude.

Now if Barbarians were blender-style, attacking lots and lots, it might add up. But no. 0.25 - 0.5 damage per attack is peanuts. Especially for a relatively-high-level ability where you don't even get anything else at those levels.

[Dienekes]

Completely personal opinion:

Barbarians at least at the base level, are about being self reliant if self destructive. Personally I do think having randomness play a part of the wild rage beast actually makes sense.

If I was trying to make Brutal Critical relevant I’d just make Barbarians more focused on critical hits. Make Rage Damage a die instead of a flat number. Then at 11th and 17th level expand their Crit Range.

And really that’s all it needs. A 19-20 Crit Range with Reckless Attack already makes Brutal Crit within the realm of a reasonable class feature. And all that really changes is that it steps on the toes of Champion Fighter, and well, who cares?

[loki_ragnarock]

Sure, sure, I just wanted to get an idea of how often it would pop off before considering the proposals. Popping once every ten rounds vs. once every 5-6 rounds serves to inform my thinking. So, if a typical combat lasts 3 rounds, 20 rounds would be about 7 combat encounters a day, which is pushing it for a combat day. That'd get you 3-4 uses of the ability if you're using reckless? 6 combat encounters would get you 3ish? So you'd want to balance expectations against similar 3/day type abilities, yeah? Minus the whole lack of control thing.

Would max damage 3 times a hard combat day be good enough? Max damage with some extra d12s? And that's in the best case? With it less likely to pop off on days where there are fewer rounds attacking?
Probably not. It's alot of damage, potentially, but is it going to be meaningful on those shorter fighting days where you only pop it out once or twice?

Maybe keep Brutal Critical as is, but add a con save with dc = damage dealt or the enemy's split in twain. If it was a mook, the crit might've killed it anyway. If it's a brute, then the crit becomes suddenly significant. 2-3 times a day of maybe instant death seems like it would be brutal enough to hit the myth, with the extra dice added serving to significantly increase the DC as they level.

Might be overcorrecting there, but being unable to choose who instantly dies sort of mitigates the ability a good bit. It might also incentivize the barbarian to always start with the heaviest thing and work their way down.

Still DC=Damage dealt would get pretty formidable even early on, that's probably too high a target number for most things to survive even when struck even just taking the greataxe averages, especially for a level 9 to be pushing out. 3d12+7 would be an average of, what, 26-27? Half that might reasonable, averaging DCs of 13-15, then 17-18, then 20-22 in the third instance?
It's still a little too swingy, a little too random. But it's dramatic. Maybe enough to be considered a high level ability?
So save vs. death, but it would blow if the things saved and nothing else happened, but maybe the player would be content that they got to throw a bunch of extra dice in that instance and merely did extra damage?

Hmm...

[strangebloke]

IMO, just give them improved critical at 9. It builds on the theme of "hit really hard sometimes" in a way that's actually constructive and synergistic with the Barbarian's other class features. Normal characters crit once in 20 attacks, barbarians with reckless crit 1/10 attacks, 9th level barbarians crit once in 5 attacks (roughly).

For higher levels you (gasp) need to actually give them a new class features, like being able to scream so hard they deal AOE thunder damage, or staring down an entire army with a glare, or something like that.

'mundane' characters need to evolve to higher level concepts along with casters. I'd actually argue that stuff like volley/whirlwind attack should be standard options for ALL martials at eleventh level for this reason. There should come a point where slaying 50 normal enemies in a turn is just kinda something the party can do.

[Kane0]

The important thing is to keep the thematics of
a) being brutal
b) hitting really hard (or letting your allies hit really hard)/doing something with critical hits
while getting the mechanics out of the gutter.

When you land a critical hit with a melee attack, or have advantage on a melee attack and both rolls would hit, you add your Barbarian level to the damage dealt.

Edit: once per turn.

[Rilmani]

For higher levels you (gasp) need to actually give them a new class features, like being able to scream so hard they deal AOE thunder damage, or staring down an entire army with a glare, or something like that.

'mundane' characters need to evolve to higher level concepts along with casters. I'd actually argue that stuff like volley/whirlwind attack should be standard options for ALL martials at eleventh level for this reason. There should come a point where slaying 50 normal enemies in a turn is just kinda something the party can do.
The simple way would be to reskin Cleric’s Divine Intervention or the Genie Warlock’s Limited Wish. Either make it once per 1d4 long rests (with a Boom that makes it once per long rest) OR give it a sliding scale of effects. If it replicates an X level spell, roll a saving throw or take a level of exhaustion. If it is higher, give multiple or sacrifice hit dice.

If you have a torch or brand? You can cast a fiery version of Melf’s Acid Arrow, Pyrotechnics, one of the Smites. You may be able to use your environment to call upon the effects of a spell- gust of wind (forcing a beast to flap its wings or exhale), tidal wave (a breached dam) Blindness/Deafness from powder or crushed glass, Contagion for a variant of Stunning Strike…

There is also potential in effects like Color Spray (perhaps targeting AC instead, or a saving throw), Bane, the weak Ray of Enfeeblement, and common conditions. Using the Master Transmuter feature from transmutation wizards could also be a good template if you want to make this feature simple, rather than “forcing” spell knowledge requirements onto martials.

Back to Barbarian though! If we don’t want to give the Barbarian maneuvers, we could give them Hunter Conclave (Ranger) abilities with some Eldritch Blast invocation effects for either weapon attacks or Athletics actions. I’d also be fine with we gave the Barbarian something like “you can make one weapon attack while taking the Dodge action” which is independent of Rage.

[stoutstien]

I'm currently testing three different options.
The first is doubling rage and ability damage as well as adding the additional dice. Not a big difference but it does help. In the end it brings them into line with fighters 3rd attack.

The second is add some form of temporary rage with criticals. More indepth and more impactful in some games than others.

The last is just replacing it completely. I like the the concept of using criticals as a way to augment attacks I just don't know if the barbarian is the class for it. To me they hit moderately hard but constantly so I'd rather they get some form of damage even on missed attacks to maintain this. That feels more brutal to me than a micro bump in damage. I'd move the critical angle over to rangers, fighter, or even rogue.

[Amnestic]

Tossing this suggestion into the ring:


Brutal Critical

Your critical strikes hit especially hard. From 9th level whenever you critically hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, the target must succeed on a constitution saving throw (DC8+PB+StrMod) or be stunned until the end of your next turn. On a successful save, they are instead knocked prone.

In addition, when you hit a creature you can choose to critically hit them. You can do so once, refreshing on a long rest. At 13th and 17th level you gain an additional use of this.

Gives you some slight control over the use of it, removes the added damage but instead offers a potent debuff, and because of its limited 'consistent' and it coming online later it doesn't step on the toes of monk stunning strike, but instead works alongside it.

[Zhorn]

We all know that Brutal Critical is a badly designed feature.
... Probably going to be an unpopular opinion for this thread. I like Brutal Critical.

Not trying to change any opinions on this. Just making it clear it is not a unanimously disliked mechanic.
I'll show myself out.

[Mastikator]

I don't think brutal critical is a badly designed feature, I think it's a neat ribbon feature. I'd say it's about as crappy as indomitable.

Personally I'd rather just give the barbarian extra stuff at level 9 and 13.

9 I'd go with some out of combat utility stuff

13 I'd go with a 3rd attack.

[Hytheter]

... Probably going to be an unpopular opinion for this thread. I like Brutal Critical.

Not trying to change any opinions on this. Just making it clear it is not a unanimously disliked mechanic.
I'll show myself out.

It is a fun feature, if nothing else.

[Asisreo1]

We all know that Brutal Critical is a badly designed feature. It procs rarely (1/20 attack rolls) and when it procs, it does very little (on average 3.5 or 5.5 damage), and its procs are random.

The theme of being able to just occasionally hit really really hard, however, is on point.

So thinking of thematic replacements:

1) The "more numbers" approach. Instead of adding an extra damage die, it maximizes the dice. Instead of possibly rolling 2 1s on those 2d12 (yes, I am assuming a greataxe because theme here), you get 24 + modifier on a crit. With Brutal Critical 2 adding another maximized die.

Still random, still doesn't probably proc enough. But big enough numbers, I think. Maybe.

2) Replace it by "when you crit with a melee attack, the target gains vulnerability to all damage (including the triggering hit) until the start of your next turn". It roughly doubles the damage from that hit, plus leaves them open to severe punishment by your allies. Still random though, which isn't great.

3) Do stock, except say that you can also choose to trigger a critical hit, but it ends your current rage at the end of your turn, with the second level letting you delay that for a round. Not random, but punishing to use. Meh. Don't like. A vanilla (even with Brutal Critical's extra die) crit just isn't threatening enough without a decent source of lots of extra dice (such as sneak attack or divine smite).

4) Do #1, with the trigger option from #3.

5) Do #2, but with the trigger option from #3.

6-7) Do #4 or #5, except give it charges/rest (1x/SR?) instead of ending your rage.

8) Separate it from triggering on critical hits entirely. Possibly "When you hit an enemy, you can choose to unbalance them. Until the end of your next turn, any weapon attack scores a critical hit on a X+ instead of the normal value. Y/rest uses.". With the improved version lowering X (say X = 15 base and X = 10 improved). A potent debuff if you have a paladin or a rogue in the party who can capitalize on a tasty crit.

The important thing is to keep the thematics of
a) being brutal
b) hitting really hard (or letting your allies hit really hard)/doing something with critical hits
while getting the mechanics out of the gutter.
So. I'll say the feature is pretty underwhelming especially depending on your subclass, your weapon, and at what scale you get it at.

At level 9, your initial scale, it looks mediocre at best. Best case scenario, you're a greataxe-wielding Berserker Barbarian with Frenzy activated and using reckless attack. It has roughly a 26.6% chance to proc every round doing an extra 6.5 damage per round. That's an extra 1.72 DPR. Not an impressive DPR boost, although your martial peers hardly get any DPR boost at that level, so you're not falling behind anything.

But when you look at it in its full glory, it starts to look fairly good.

At level 17, the same Berserker Barbarian will probably get 4 attacks per round because they get a reaction attack just from getting hit, which should be common for a melee tank. Brutal Critical then has a 33% chance to proc per round to do an extra 19.5 average damage per round. That's a DPR increase of 6.43. Even at that level, that's a fairly high jump. Especially when you recognize barbarian damage has always been competitive even without feats. Plus, you have a 1/3rd chance to get that juicy crit.

[stoutstien]

So. I'll say the feature is pretty underwhelming especially depending on your subclass, your weapon, and at what scale you get it at.

At level 9, your initial scale, it looks mediocre at best. Best case scenario, you're a greataxe-wielding Berserker Barbarian with Frenzy activated and using reckless attack. It has roughly a 26.6% chance to proc every round doing an extra 6.5 damage per round. That's an extra 1.72 DPR. Not an impressive DPR boost, although your martial peers hardly get any DPR boost at that level, so you're not falling behind anything.

But when you look at it in its full glory, it starts to look fairly good.

At level 17, the same Berserker Barbarian will probably get 4 attacks per round because they get a reaction attack just from getting hit, which should be common for a melee tank. Brutal Critical then has a 33% chance to proc per round to do an extra 19.5 average damage per round. That's a DPR increase of 6.43. Even at that level, that's a fairly high jump. Especially when you recognize barbarian damage has always been competitive even without feats. Plus, you have a 1/3rd chance to get that juicy crit.

Eating level(s) of exhaustion for barely more damage than is added by the worse damage increasing fighting style(great weapon). In addition, it costs three different levels of features to even do that.

**Note the berserker's reaction attack is limited to five feet as well so as you get to the levels where you fight bigger creatures it happens less and less because reach. It's a good feature but it's also limited enough so you can't rely on it.**

[Asisreo1]

Eating level(s) of exhaustion for barely more damage than is added by the worse damage increasing fighting style(great weapon). In addition, it costs three different levels of features to even do that.

**Note the berserker's reaction attack is limited to five feet as well so as you get to the levels where you fight bigger creatures it happens less and less because reach. It's a good feature but it's also limited enough so you can't rely on it.**
Well, before I go further, I will say that I'm excluding optional features/traits. So barbarians never get the great weapon fighting style.

Also, Brutal Critical doesn't need Frenzy to be active, Frenzy just helps. Without it, the extra damage is 1.2 DPR for level 9 and 5.19 at level 17+, adjusting for one less attack/chance to crit.

It should be noted that Barbarian's Retaliation is almost as reliable as an extra attack. In a situation where the barbarian already got their full attack in, the barbarian is already within their reach, so if the enemy with, say 15ft of reach wants to attack the barbarian from 15ft away, they'd have to move 10ft away from the barbarian. That procs the barbarian's opportunity attack. They're in a situation where the only way not to take a reaction attack from the barbarian is by staying in their reach but not attacking the barbarian.

If they try to do so via ranged attacks, they get disadvantage. The barbarian is in a very good spot in this scenario.

[clash]

With the concept of self destructive rage why not use hit dice.

At level 9 when you got with an attack roll you may expend a hit dice to deal an extra 1d12 damage on the attack. The number of hit dice you may expend on a single attack goes up with level. 2 dice at 11th level. 3 dice at 13th. 4 at 15th and 5 dice at 17th level.

[stoutstien]

Well, before I go further, I will say that I'm excluding optional features/traits. So barbarians never get the great weapon fighting style.

Also, Brutal Critical doesn't need Frenzy to be active, Frenzy just helps. Without it, the extra damage is 1.2 DPR for level 9 and 5.19 at level 17+, adjusting for one less attack/chance to crit.

It should be noted that Barbarian's Retaliation is almost as reliable as an extra attack. In a situation where the barbarian already got their full attack in, the barbarian is already within their reach, so if the enemy with, say 15ft of reach wants to attack the barbarian from 15ft away, they'd have to move 10ft away from the barbarian. That procs the barbarian's opportunity attack. They're in a situation where the only way not to take a reaction attack from the barbarian is by staying in their reach but not attacking the barbarian.

If they try to do so via ranged attacks, they get disadvantage. The barbarian is in a very good spot in this scenario.

If the NPC in question has reach then they can just attack somebody other than the barbarian which is usually always going to be the better choice.

[Asisreo1]

If the NPC in question has reach then they can just attack somebody other than the barbarian which is usually always going to be the better choice.
I guess it depends on the reach. If I was a ranged character, I would do my best to not get in a melee creature's range. Really, I'd try to be as far as I can without taking disadvantage. If I was a support caster, there's even less reason to be within a range closer than about 40 ft off my own turn. If I was another martial, I might have contingencies against being hit, otherwise you're kinda just getting in the way. The good news is that the only martials that are expected to plant their feet and be in melee are barbarians and paladins, both okay with being directly hit.

[KorvinStarmast]

If I was trying to make Brutal Critical relevant I’d just make Barbarians more focused on critical hits. Make Rage Damage a die instead of a flat number. Then at 11th and 17th level expand their Crit Range. Or, rage is a 1d6 in tier 1, 1d8 in tier 2 in tier 1d10 in tier 3, 1d12 in tier 4. (A little bit like how bardic inspiration die goes up, and a little like the 'use dice for prof bonus' optional rule in the DMG which we have used and the party/table liked it).

And really that’s all it needs. A 19-20 Crit Range with Reckless Attack already makes Brutal Crit within the realm of a reasonable class feature. And all that really changes is that it steps on the toes of Champion Fighter, and well, who cares? Well, hating on the Champ to help the Barbarian strikes me as needless ill will. :smallfrown: (IMO, champion ought to get an additional fighting style at each tier ... based on how the fighter is described).

At level 9 when you got with an attack roll you may expend a hit dice to deal an extra 1d12 damage on the attack. The number of hit dice you may expend on a single attack goes up with level. 2 dice at 11th level. 3 dice at 13th. 4 at 15th and 5 dice at 17th level. Not a bad idea. Risk/reward. :smallsmile: And go nuts during a five minute adventure day, just like a paladin. :smallbiggrin:

[Sorinth]

I've suggested before that a fun way would be to add more d20s when attacking with advantage, either at the same levels as BC or offset levels.

It increases the frequency of crits but isn't a straight rip off Champion's increased crit range. It also reduces misses which helps deal with the problems associated with only having 2 attacks natively. It's still somewhat balanced because the penalties involved with Reckless Attack and this is a path that already exists via Elven Accuracy so not completely new or unbalanced.

[strangebloke]

Really, the biggest problem with BC besides it being super weak is that its just no very useful or interested. It's just 'more damage' on a class that already deals amazing damage. And you get it like four times!

I'd much rather have a feature that lets you scream at the sky and cause earthquakes or something.