Advancement Statistics

[AvatarVecna]

The MM provides a number of ways to advance a monster - more HD, templates, class levels, attribute array. More HD feels like it would be difficult to properly address. Templates are largely the result of intentional in-universe action (liches try to become liches, half-dragons involve a dragon deciding to bone something). The frequency of class levels among non-PCs is explored in the DMG, at least as far as communities go (although those rules have a bunch of problems).

What I'm looking for is some kind of general rule stated somewhere about how common creatures with the elite array are. The actual answer is always, of course, "as common as the DM wants it to be", but this edition has all kinds of rules for all kinds of weird niche situations, and I'm just wondering if this is one of them. I know the standard array (13/12/11/10/9/8) is roughly the average for rolling 3d6 per stat, and that elite array (15/14/13/12/10/8) is roughly average for 4d6 best 3 per stat, so if I assumed all creatures of a given species roll 3d6 for attributes, I could probably calculate how common it is for a given creature to roll the equivalent of elite array or better.

But that feels boring and it's also unhelpful sometimes: if I'm doing this for wolves to get a sense for how common alpha wolves are, does that mean that like 1 in 200 wolves has Int 8? I mean I've seen a quote from an IRL park ranger about the intelligence overlap between the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists, but still that seems weird. So I'm hoping for a better method, or a general rule that addresses this kind of thing.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Considering almost all example monsters with class levels across the books have elite arrays‚ I'd say a good way would be to give the elite array to all creatures with PC class levels

[AvatarVecna]

Considering almost all example monsters with class levels across the books have elite arrays‚ I'd say a good way would be to give the elite array to all creatures with PC class levels

Sure, but there should also be creatures with elite array who don't have class levels and I'm unsure how common those are.

[Saintheart]

I doubt you'll find a general rule on the subject, the DMG and MM tend to be pretty sparse on demographics.


Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.

Elite Array
The elite array is: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. While the monster has one weakness compared to a typical member of its race, it is significantly better overall. The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.

Nonelite Array
The nonelite array is: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class.


Maybe the way to calculate it is to use the same way settlements are generated (https://www.d20srd.org/d20/demographics/). That gives you a breakdown right down to how many commoners/experts/aristocrats/warriors there are in a given settlement, so that gives a proportion of those who have the nonelite array (all the NPC classes) and the elite array (who have PC classes). Maybe you just assume a similar proportion of average array monsters to elite array monsters with no PC levels.

[Biggus]

But that feels boring and it's also unhelpful sometimes: if I'm doing this for wolves to get a sense for how common alpha wolves are, does that mean that like 1 in 200 wolves has Int 8? I mean I've seen a quote from an IRL park ranger about the intelligence overlap between the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists, but still that seems weird. So I'm hoping for a better method, or a general rule that addresses this kind of thing.

There is a specific rule which addresses the animal intelligence part:


Animal type: [...] Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

Personally I'd say that if the average score of any stat is extremely low it doesn't make sense to roll 3d6 to randomise it, but as far as I know there aren't any rules for that.

[Mike Miller]

If you accept that monsters without class levels use the 10 10 10 11 11 11 stats, then elite array monsters are probably rare. I find it is more impactful to add class levels than just update starting stats.

[AvatarVecna]

If you accept that monsters without class levels use the 10 10 10 11 11 11 stats, then elite array monsters are probably rare. I find it is more impactful to add class levels than just update starting stats.

I'm aware that class levels are an option for upgrading monsters. It's mentioned in the OP. The question isn't "how can I upgrade monsters". At all. The question is "how common should these methods of advancement be expected to be?" We have an answer for how common classes are, which I was already aware of when the thread was made. And yes, creatures with class levels always have elite array. But not every creature with elite array is going to have class levels. Case in point, my animal example.

Can you make an alpha wolf by making a wolf with more HD? Sure. How often does it happen naturally? Not sure.

Can you make an alpha wolf by making a wolf with elite stats? Sure. How often does it happen naturally? Not sure.

Can you make an alpha wolf by making a wolf with class levels? No. It's pretty explicitly illegal. So saying "just use class levels" isn't ****ing helpful.

I know that class levels can be used to upgrade monsters. That's not the question.