What to do after Monk 14

[Seekergeek]

So, as the title says, I'm at a loss as to what to do after level 14 in monk. I've got an astral self monk who is closing in on level 15. I have more Ki points than I need in most given days, and the class really stops offering me much of interest beyond this point. The astral self capstone at 17 seems underwhelming. Since I'm sticking and moving, I don't really find myself a viable target most of the time so the +2 AC doesn't offer much, and while an extra attack is nice I'm not going to be keeping up with my PAM/GWM and Xbow/Sharpshooter pals anyway.

My stats are 11,20,18,10,20,9. I have zero magic items and shouldn't count on them. The party as a whole has three, I think, beyond what the artificer has on tap.

Fighter seems like a good bet, as always. Battlemaster or even Echoknight could be cool. We've got a rogue so I don't want to step on his toes. Cleric would suit the stats but might feel somewhat anemic this late in the game. What would you guys do?

[strangebloke]

I would go BM, and grab Ambush and Trip Attack. Trip them, then grapple them with your astral arms so they can't move and thus can't stand. Bonus points if your DM lets you do this at range. Ambush is just generally amazing and really synergistic with everything you already have.

Alternate route would be ranger, preferably hunter or gloomstalker since those don't use bonus actions. Favored Foe is worthless for you but the rest is quite nice. Flavor is a bit weird but overall you won't regret it, and you can even go to 5th level because you get 2nd level spells which make it worth it even though extra attack is duplicated.

[heavyfuel]

A caster is great because you're probably not Concentrating on anything, so even something "weak" like Bless is actually great. Don't bother wasting an action in combat, but it's very nice if you can precast.

Druid or Cleric are the obvious choices given you can't multiclass into anything else (except Ranger)

Cleric is pretty good. You get Toll the Dead for a decent ranged attack (probably better than a Shortbow), you get Guidance aka the most OP cantrip in the game, and you can spend you concentration on Shield of Faith/Bless/Protection from Evil, which is always better than not concentrating on something. Plus, you get some nice utility spells like Detect Magic and Purify Food and Drink.

Forge Cleric is surprisingly strong if the DM allows you to treat your clothes as "a suit of armor" for Blessing of the Forge

2nd level gets you CD, which has some interesting uses.

Druid isn't too shabby either. You still have some nice spells to Concentrate on, but Cleric is probably stronger.

Neither class offers much beyond 2nd level though. Casting 2nd levels spells isn't that much better than casting 1st level spells at 17th. The issue then becomes, what do you take after level 15/16? I agree that Fighter is great (Action Surge yo!)

[Asisreo1]

So, as the title says, I'm at a loss as to what to do after level 14 in monk. I've got an astral self monk who is closing in on level 15. I have more Ki points than I need in most given days, and the class really stops offering me much of interest beyond this point. The astral self capstone at 17 seems underwhelming. Since I'm sticking and moving, I don't really find myself a viable target most of the time so the +2 AC doesn't offer much, and while an extra attack is nice I'm not going to be keeping up with my PAM/GWM and Xbow/Sharpshooter pals anyway.

My stats are 11,20,18,10,20,9. I have zero magic items and shouldn't count on them. The party as a whole has three, I think, beyond what the artificer has on tap.

Fighter seems like a good bet, as always. Battlemaster or even Echoknight could be cool. We've got a rogue so I don't want to step on his toes. Cleric would suit the stats but might feel somewhat anemic this late in the game. What would you guys do?
Well, let's make sure you know exactly what you'd have by taking the capstone rather than multiclassing, just so you know what you're missing.

Awakened Astral Self takes an extra 3 Ki points to activate all three of your other subclass features. That means you don't have to expend an extra action to get all your subclass benefits, and at level 17, 5 Ki for full potential isn't bad. Plus, you said you don't have problems with Ki so that's helpful.

Also, at level 18, you'd get the monk's Empty Soul, monk's strongest feature bar none.

[Seekergeek]

Awakened Astral Self takes an extra 3 Ki points to activate all three of your other subclass features. That means you don't have to expend an extra action to get all your subclass benefits, and at level 17, 5 Ki for full potential isn't bad. Plus, you said you don't have problems with Ki so that's helpful.


Oh dang. Have I been doing this wrong for 11 levels? I thought you could activate them all as part of the same bonus action...

Astral self: "At 3rd level, your mastery of your ki allows you to summon a portion of your astral self. As a bonus action, you can spend 1 ki point to summon the arms of your astral self..."

Astral Visage: "When you reach 6th level, you can summon the visage of your astral self. As a bonus action, or as part of the bonus action you take to activate Arms of the Astral Self, you can spend 1 ki point to summon this visage for 10 minutes..."

Body of the Astral Self: "Starting at 11th level, when you have both your astral arms and visage summoned, you can cause the body of your astral self to appear (no action required)..."

What am I missing?

[diplomancer]

Well, let's make sure you know exactly what you'd have by taking the capstone rather than multiclassing, just so you know what you're missing.

Awakened Astral Self takes an extra 3 Ki points to activate all three of your other subclass features. That means you don't have to expend an extra action to get all your subclass benefits, and at level 17, 5 Ki for full potential isn't bad. Plus, you said you don't have problems with Ki so that's helpful.

Also, at level 18, you'd get the monk's Empty Soul, monk's strongest feature bar none.

Yeah, I'd go for monk 18 as well, Empty Soul is very good.. For the last 2 levels, Peace Cleric is a stand out.

If I stopped at Monk 14, I'd probably go Peace Cleric 2, Ranger 4. Hunter's Mark is always decent on a Monk, and some Rangers subclasses have very nice 3rd level features. Alternatively, Peace Cleric 1, Ranger 3, Fighter 2. With Gloomstalker, Action Surge, and Flurry of Blows, you get to attack 8 times on the first round of combat, and you will have a +10 to your initiative to boot. If you've happened to have Hunter's-Mark pre-cast, that's quite a lot of extra damage.

[GooeyChewie]

Oh dang. Have I been doing this wrong for 11 levels? I thought you could activate them all as part of the same bonus action...

You can do it all in one bonus action, but it takes 2 Ki points. Weirdly the body doesn't take a Ki point, but the other two take one each.

[Asisreo1]

Oh dang. Have I been doing this wrong for 11 levels? I thought you could activate them all as part of the same bonus action...

Astral self: "At 3rd level, your mastery of your ki allows you to summon a portion of your astral self. As a bonus action, you can spend 1 ki point to summon the arms of your astral self..."

Astral Visage: "When you reach 6th level, you can summon the visage of your astral self. As a bonus action, or as part of the bonus action you take to activate Arms of the Astral Self, you can spend 1 ki point to summon this visage for 10 minutes..."

Body of the Astral Self: "Starting at 11th level, when you have both your astral arms and visage summoned, you can cause the body of your astral self to appear (no action required)..."

What am I missing?
Sorry. I'm borrowing the book and skimmed through. You're correct. It's all part of the same bonus action. I guess the big benefit would the extra attack, which still seems very useful since it's a one-time activation for a good chunk of extra damage. Although, I still think Empty Body is 100% worth the investment. I'd have to play astral self to understand whether or not it's just a direct-combat style monk...

[Seekergeek]

it may be worth mentioning that we're grinding through Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and astral projection, I don't believe, will work normally in the dungeon., which sort of makes the otherwise admittedly awesome level 18 abilitly kind of moot.

[Sorinth]

I guess the question becomes are you looking for more combat related stuff or something out of combat.

Rogue can be good as you can get a bit of sneak attack some expertise.
Battlemaster fighter or Barbarian can be good combat options.
There's lots of useful spells if you went Cleric/Druid. Druid can be entertaining since you keep you class features in wildshape

[solidork]

Awakened Astral Self takes an extra 3 Ki points to activate all three of your other subclass features. That means you don't have to expend an extra action to get all your subclass benefits, and at level 17, 5 Ki for full potential isn't bad. Plus, you said you don't have problems with Ki so that's helpful.


It doesn't look like you actually gain any action economy, since your arms and head can be summoned as part of the same action and the body appears for no action.

For real though, Empty Body is going to be way more powerful than just about anything you can get by multiclassing. Greater Invis + Super Stoneskin without needing concentration is pretty sweet. You'd also go up to D10 martial arts, and get an ASI.

[Asisreo1]

it may be worth mentioning that we're grinding through Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and astral projection, I don't believe, will work normally in the dungeon., which sort of makes the otherwise admittedly awesome level 18 abilitly kind of moot.
Not at all. Astral Projection is essentially a ribbon ability compared to the invisibility and resistance to all damage except resistance. If you get it then multiclass to a caster, the invisibility doesn't use concentration either, so it's still very good.

[diplomancer]

it may be worth mentioning that we're grinding through Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and astral projection, I don't believe, will work normally in the dungeon., which sort of makes the otherwise admittedly awesome level 18 abilitly kind of moot.

But the main combat ability of Empty Body has nothing to do with the Astral Plane. You're invisible, you have Resistance to damage, that's it. There isn't even some descriptive line mentioning that Plane, so there isn't any sort of "fluff vs. Crunch" issue.

[Seekergeek]

...it's possible I may have entirely skipped the first empty body ability and only noticed the astral projection part.

It's possible. I'll never admit it, though.

[Asisreo1]

...it's possible I may have entirely skipped the first empty body ability and only noticed the astral projection part.

It's possible. I'll never admit it, though.
As someone with experience in missing a box of text, don't worry its alright.

[Syjyl4488]

Also…even if you’re not heavily dependent on magic items, the dragon hide belt and soul catcher gloves would be super items for a monk either way.

[Kane0]

No shame in staying in monk, you get more ki and more to spend it on plus no delay on ASIs.

3 levels in fighter, rogue or both are the MCs i would say are the best choices depending on what you want to branch off into.

[Frogreaver]

IMO, Ki is greater than any other resource you could add, even if you just use it to attempt stuns more often. The ASI you'll get at 16 helps (I'm sure there's some decent feats for you, lucky if nothing else). And if you ever get to 18th level you'll get an ability much better than anything you could multiclass for.

[Khrysaes]

2 star druid for the dragon star map thing. Afb cant rmember the names would be good as it makes your wisdom checks, of which your astral arms use for athletics, a minimum of 10, and offers some healing and/or good concentration options. Going higher can work or multiclassing fighter works too.

[Hael]

Gonna echo what others said here. The level 17 and 18 monk features are very strong. You wont want to miss that..

[PattThe]

Stick with it to level 17 monk.
Never not be spending ki, just go god damn ballistic. Step of the wind so much you're practically flying with the wizards. Keep patient defense up during social interactions. Get that next ASI.

[Ganryu]

Monk 15 !

[Keravath]

I'd agree with every one that the monk level 18 feature is very good. Pretty much their capstone feature. If you want to multiclass then one level of cleric might be your best bet. With the high wisdom you get to prepare a good number of spells - you can provide a bit of back up healing and the various cleric archetypes each offer something useful depending on your campaign.

War cleric gives you the divine favour spell - first round bonus action then every other attack you make the entire fight adds a d4 of damage. Since monks usually have a lot of attacks it can be a useful option to increase your damage a bit. You can also use a bonus action to make an extra weapon attack for wisdom bonus rounds each day. This is useful if the monk has a cool or powerful magic weapon so that an additional attack from the weapon might be preferable to using ki on flurry of blows.

Twilight cleric gets you 300' darkvision and the ability to give to your party. You also pick up advantage on initiative and the faerie fire spell. It might only be first level but advantage is always useful and your DC is high due to proficiency and wisdom.
Two levels of Twilight gets the dim light feature which can be used to end the frightened and charmed conditions for any creature that ends its turn in the dimness. There are also a few temp hps which are less consequential at the level you are at.

Peace cleric gains a skill and emboldening bond which will let pretty much your whole party add a d4 to their rolls once/turn. Very useful. Not concentration but only lasts 10 minutes. Usable proficiency bonus times/day. Two levels picks up the channel divinity to run around to most of your party and heal each for 2d6+wis. This can be particularly useful on a monk with a high move speed. Useful if several characters go down in one turn - you could bring them all back up with admittedly only a few hit points.

Knowledge cleric enhances a different aspect by giving you expertise in two int skills. Usefulness depends on your campaign. The channel divinity can be used to give you proficiency in any skill or tool for 10 minutes which depends on circumstances but can also be useful.

[Speely]

Snipped some stuff.

I'd agree with every one that the monk level 18 feature is very good. Pretty much their capstone feature. If you want to multiclass then one level of cleric might be your best bet. With the high wisdom you get to prepare a good number of spells - you can provide a bit of back up healing and the various cleric archetypes each offer something useful depending on your campaign.

Peace cleric gains a skill and emboldening bond which will let pretty much your whole party add a d4 to their rolls once/turn. Very useful. Not concentration but only lasts 10 minutes. Usable proficiency bonus times/day. Two levels picks up the channel divinity to run around to most of your party and heal each for 2d6+wis. This can be particularly useful on a monk with a high move speed. Useful if several characters go down in one turn - you could bring them all back up with admittedly only a few hit points.


This speaks to me the most. I plan to do the same with a Mercy Monk (2 level Peace dip) to sort of double down on the battlefield medic angle, but the Peace cleric offers arguably more to a monk subclass with no healing/support at all. Of course, I plan to dip sooner, probably after level 6 monk, just to get the build direction online sooner, trading some potency for utility.

One of the things that I like about monks is that they lend themselves well to adapting to situations and filling in gaps. A Peace cleric dip offers a lot to a play style like that, both in utility and potency. I actually think it's one of the more effective dips in the game as of this posting for a lot of build types, but for a monk it's particularly synergistic, imo, and lets them actually support the party beyond landing lucky Stunning Strikes.

Plus you can nab some handy low-level utility spells.

As versatile as a monk can be tactically, it's nice to know you can expand their action economy choices to afford something like Emboldening Bond or their awesome CD when the time is right. That's quite a bit of freedom of choice to add to their kit.

Side note: Balm of Peace is not just a handy way to get your party up, but also a GREAT escape button. Moving 40-60 feet with no attacks of opportunity is pretty sick. Worth using even if no one is hurt in certain situations. Arguably more awesome for a monk than for any other class.

[Segev]

Spores Druid gets a feature that adds an extra d4 of damage to every attack.

Echo knight could have the echo be your astral self fully manifesting.

Gloomstalker mostly adds hunter's mark and your wisdom bonus to intiative.

Barbarian adds rage damage to each attack. Ancestors Barb could be re flavored to your astral self manifesting a lot of faux bodies. Zealot makes you cheap to resurrect.

[Arkhios]

Spores Druid gets a feature that adds an extra d4 of damage to every attack.

Echo knight could have the echo be your astral self fully manifesting.

Gloomstalker mostly adds hunter's mark and your wisdom bonus to intiative.

Barbarian adds rage damage to each attack. Ancestors Barb could be re flavored to your astral self manifesting a lot of faux bodies. Zealot makes you cheap to resurrect.

This really isn't a good idea, unless the monk gets a magic item that takes their Strength above 20.

At levels 15+ using Strength 11 for attacks and damage with rage giving them at most +3 to damage is not the best idea, imho.

Rage damage is applied only when you use strength to attack.

Aaaand there's the small problem with str 11 (still, after 7 years) not meeting prerequisites to multiclass with Barbarian.

Personally, If I were to do multiclass with these stats, I would consider the following options:
Fighter (any) 6, even though extra attack goes to waste
Ranger (any) 6
Rogue (soulknife) 6, because Psychic Blades says "This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties." Thus, it counts as a monk weapon, and you get to use your Martial Arts damage die instead of their standard 1d6. Obviously it's not that big a difference between 1d6 and 1d8, but it's something.

[Seekergeek]

Man, so much good feedback in here. The action economy of the empty body ability bums me out a bit - is it going to really provide more than a battle master with the superior technique fighting style, or a peace cleric? I don't know. The invisibility and damage resistance are awesome but I have been able to mitigate incoming damage by simply taking advantage of astral's reach and the monk's base mobility. Between that my party makeup being heavily front line focused, deflect missiles, evasion and deflect energy I just don't take much damage.

I suspect we levelled up last session though the DM hasn't confirmed so I guess I need to make a decision sooner than later.

[Magikeeper]

Do you think invisibility will be at all useful out of combat? Invisibility that does not stop you from using other abilities, at that.

At some point it is better to focus on versatility than being even better at the stuff you're already good at. Would resistance to all damage (except force) and invisibility open up new tactics you're not already doing, or would be something that barely ever comes up?

Given the party make-up, battlemaster 3 would probably be more fun as you'd have greater ability to combo with all the melee frontliners... unless the invisibility would have significant use.

[diplomancer]

Man, so much good feedback in here. The action economy of the empty body ability bums me out a bit - is it going to really provide more than a battle master with the superior technique fighting style, or a peace cleric? I don't know. The invisibility and damage resistance are awesome but I have been able to mitigate incoming damage by simply taking advantage of astral's reach and the monk's base mobility. Between that my party makeup being heavily front line focused, deflect missiles, evasion and deflect energy I just don't take much damage.

I suspect we levelled up last session though the DM hasn't confirmed so I guess I need to make a decision sooner than later.

Well, maybe you won't be able to use it every fight due to action economy (but remember that you still get a bonus action attack at round 1 if you do start the fight with it). However, consider that it's noiseless and not a spell; unlike many pre-fight buffs, therefore, it's not going to alert the enemy, specially if they don't see you to begin with. You should have good stealth and crazy movement speed by now, so you can be "detached" from the main party and still reach it in time for the fight to begin after you activate your Empty Body. Heck, you can even START the fight at surprise if the enemies are still talking with the party for some reason, and don't notice invisible you coming up to their faces.