Called Shots? Or breaking the Hydras jaw

[Blackhawk748]

So, in a thread a while back I asked about ways someone can lose a limb in DnD, which brought up the subject of doing it to creatures, primarily stuff like giant Squids and Hydras and whatnot, in order to debuff them. This of course brought up called shots, but I've never really seen a nice way of doing it.

So, just asking how anyone here has seen it done. Most of the time I just see it be a scaling penalty based on size of the target and then the Dm just kinda makes up how much HP whatever limb is being targeted has.

[pabelfly]

So, in a thread a while back I asked about ways someone can lose a limb in DnD, which brought up the subject of doing it to creatures, primarily stuff like giant Squids and Hydras and whatnot, in order to debuff them. This of course brought up called shots, but I've never really seen a nice way of doing it.

So, just asking how anyone here has seen it done. Most of the time I just see it be a scaling penalty based on size of the target and then the Dm just kinda makes up how much HP whatever limb is being targeted has.

That's pretty much how I handle it, as well as other DMs that I play with.

I'd say it's more useful than just multilimbed enemies like squids and Hydras, though. Sometimes you can't kill an enemy as quick as you would prefer, and risking a higher miss chance to remove or incapacitate a limb to get a desired effect is a risk worth taking, if your DM is willing to play ball. I've had characters chop the hand off a bandit who had a knife to my friend's throat, targeted the leg of an enemy who I preferred to capture alive, or the arm of an enemy with a sword I was fighting to try and weaken his attacks. I think it's a fun way to add a bit of extra risk/reward and more narrative to a combat situation.

[Blackhawk748]

That's pretty much how I handle it, as well as other DMs that I play with.

I'd say it's more useful than just multilimbed enemies like squids and Hydras, though. Sometimes you can't kill an enemy as quick as you would prefer, and risking a higher miss chance to remove or incapacitate a limb to get a desired effect is a risk worth taking, if your DM is willing to play ball. I've had characters chop the hand off a bandit who had a knife to my friend's throat, targeted the leg of an enemy who I preferred to capture alive, or the arm of an enemy with a sword I was fighting to try and weaken his attacks. I think it's a fun way to add a bit of extra risk/reward and more narrative to a combat situation.

I agree, it's also good for grounding flying things as you can just shoot the wings.

And I suppose I'm fine with the scaling miss chance for aiming at progressively smaller things, it's just the HP I'm trying to work out. Cuz I want it to have a more refined, predictable system to it.

[Yogibear41]

Pathfinder has rules for called shots. Hydras also have special rules for cutting off their heads you could do the same for tentacles.

[Blackhawk748]

Pathfinder has rules for called shots. Hydras also have special rules for cutting off their heads you could do the same for tentacles.

I know Hydras have specific rules and those translate nicely to things like tentacles, it's more like... How much HP does an arm have? Or a leg?

I feel confident on the amount of HP and eye has. Probably 1

[Elder_Basilisk]

I've never been a fan of called shots. It pretty rapidly degenerates into fallout where you just aim the turbo plasma for the eye and turn the enemy into green goo every time.

[Blackhawk748]

I've never been a fan of called shots. It pretty rapidly degenerates into fallout where you just aim the turbo plasma for the eye and turn the enemy into green goo every time.

Well that's only if you're using them to do extra damage. I want them for doing things like breaking arms and wings

[loky1109]

Well that's only if you're using them to do extra damage. I want them for doing things like breaking arms and wings
Character has 180/200 HP, but is out fight, because of break both arms. Doesn't seem good design.

[Saintheart]

Character has 180/200 HP, but is out fight, because of break both arms. Doesn't seem good design.

When you say "good design", are we talking aesthetics, dynamics, or mechanics?

If you want to run the sort of adventure where combat is more "realistic", then that sort of aesthetic might be exactly what you're looking for. (And again it's important to define the aesthetic we're trying to give players. By "realistic", I mean the recorded history of duels where fights generally were won by the person who put the first debilitating wound on the similarly-fragile opponent. One was won by a plain old leg wound, flat-out hamstringing, and continued only embarrassingly - and briefly - when the guy hamstrung wouldn't surrender.)

But plainly that sort of aesthetic/dynamic isn't for all tables, particularly as 3.5 was basically designed as an attrition game where HP is meant to be the counter for when you're down and out of the game. (And that's leaving aside the arguments about whether HP represents physical capacity, stamina, defence ability, or just plain old depleting plot armour.)

As for me, I believe there is a distinction between a called shot being able to remove all of a creature's plausible attack forms and removing one of a creature's advantages, or remove one of its forms of attack. I think that sort of aesthetic/dynamic is good design because it invites players to be creative. It just takes the right type of monster. A hydra or octopus is one. A manticore, while it isn't terribly powerful, is another. Because it does have more than one method of attack, which makes it great for hacking bits off. Chop off its tail, and it can still claw and fly, but it can't kite anymore. Take out its wings, and it still has its forms of attack, even if it's hobbled, but it can't get away quite as easily.

The problem is that not all creatures have more than one attack mode, and not all creatures have interesting advantages to them making it (notionally) harder to combat them. The solution? Don't make called shots available on everything. Most humanoid-ish opponents we can handwave by saying "Their hitpoint count already factors in any called shot you make against them. If an ordinary hobgoblin hits HP 0 then you're already presumed to have hit it with an incapacitating wound such that it cannot continue the combat."

A DM utilising a called shots system has to be gutsy enough to not allow them on every creature unfortunate enough to trundle across the party's path. He has to have the guts to smile and say "No, that body part's not realistically open to attack given the way the fight is proceeding, or because of armouring over the vulnerable part, or similar" as the requests come in every single fight. I believe you want the party to be thrilled when the tactic does come off. And that it doesn't come off every time. And you want them to consider the cost of doing so, each time, for doing so. Miss any of those elements and the system doesn't work, it becomes compulsory rather than optional. It becomes Fallout ... where, as said, it is basically compulsory. And guess what, that's because called shots in effect are always available. Because Fallout is a video game, and D&D is a RPG run by a living, breathing soul who is permitted, amazingly, to be spontaneous and adapt to crazy ideas on the fly.

That's why I like the idea of disadvantage on the roll as the other control mechanism for it. It has enough of a chance of failure that the player will at least think about it before they go for it. Sure, magic at the higher end takes some of this out of it ... but if so, the player's paying some cost for it, and unless you allow the cost to be no cost by way of a permanent item or something, that's acceptable, because it's choice in combat.

And the vital corollary is that the DM must not, ever, allow NPCs and monsters to utilise the called shot system against PCs. Called shots systems are there for the players, not the DM. There's nothing in the world that says an advantage the players have must also be held by the monsters. As others have observed, like critical hits, called shots will be suffered by PCs much more than any individual NPC. There's enough imposed conditions and penalties in the game for players as it is.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm with Saintheart on this, I'm looking around because I'm making an E6 system so I'm trying to put as many player options in the rules as possible, simply because at the levels you play at you need these sorts of mundane solutions to things like this.

Cuz a flying enemy could be a serious problem if you can't ground it on some way, and it's very probable that a party doesn't have a means of doing so.

Thus the archer needs to be able to ground something mundanely on order to let the rest of the party go nuts

[pabelfly]

Character has 180/200 HP, but is out fight, because of break both arms. Doesn't seem good design.

But if you've only done 10 damage to each arm it's unreasonable to expect that your opponent would be crippled. You might expect them to take a small negative on attack rolls though.

[loky1109]

But if you've only done 10 damage to each arm it's unreasonable to expect that your opponent would be crippled. You might expect them to take a small negative on attack rolls though.
It doesn't work good in d&d. HP as "meat points" very bad concept. HP as "plot armor" works much better. But plot armor and called shots can't work together.
Cut of manticore's tail should be different mechanics. Maybe something like bloodied from 4E. Maybe not straight (1/2 HP means cup tail out), but bloodied opens some cutting options.
Or you need different system core, where "meat points" will work. G.U.R.P.S. maybe?

[pabelfly]

It doesn't work good in d&d. HP as "meat points" very bad concept. HP as "plot armor" works much better. But plot armor and called shots can't work together.
Cut of manticore's tail should be different mechanics. Maybe something like bloodied from 4E. Maybe not straight (1/2 HP means cup tail out), but bloodied opens some cutting options.
Or you need different system core, where "meat points" will work. G.U.R.P.S. maybe?

I've never had problems with it as a DM or as a player though, and I've worked with it on both sides of the table. You come up with a penalty for the attack roll, or you can just wait for the roll and see how much they exceed the AC and just judge whether it reasonably would have worked or not. Something like the arm of a creature would have, say, maybe a -5 penalty. Depending on how much damage they've done if they actually succeed on hitting the hand, you can rule how it's affected the hand. Personally, I'd say that 10HP lost for an arm of a character with 200HP would only be a small scratch and not have any negative effect on their attacks, while around 50HP might be an injury that gives a negative to attack rolls and around 100HP means they've lost that arm.

As for HP as plot armor, why not let the player that wants to do it have the cool story of their character crippling the arm of the big bruiser that was wrecking the party?

[loky1109]

I've never had problems with it as a DM or as a player though, and I've worked with it on both sides of the table.
It works well only if you are free to change rules any moment. So yes, for real game it can be applicable, but as system rules it is lazy or too complicated.


As for HP as plot armor, why not let the player that wants to do it have the cool story of their character crippling the arm of the big bruiser that was wrecking the party?
Because if HP is plot armor, you very likely can hit enemy "in game" once or twice, while there are dozens hits "on the table". Plot armor idea separates mechanics and fluff. Well, of course you can give enemy "-5" even after "in game miss", but I don't recommend that. As like I don't recommend describe called shots' hits as "hits" every time while regular hits not every time. Suspension of disbelief needed be protected.

[Eladrinblade]

I have a simple one in my games, because more than one player over the years has asked if they could do it and I think it's fine.

"Can I shoot them in the leg?" Sure. Attack with a -4 penalty (can't be a sneak attack or a critical hit), if you hit they make a fort save vs DC 10 + damage, if they fail, treat them as having stepped on a caltrop.

[Blackhawk748]

I have a simple one in my games, because more than one player over the years has asked if they could do it and I think it's fine.

"Can I shoot them in the leg?" Sure. Attack with a -4 penalty (can't be a sneak attack or a critical hit), if you hit they make a fort save vs DC 10 + damage, if they fail, treat them as having stepped on a caltrop.

Huh, that's kinda neat. May just do something like this where it's not crippled, just debuffed