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SangoProduction
2022-03-27, 09:21 PM
Preamble: Was looking through the spheres for inspiration. Saw a legendary talent that allowed disarming of already unarmed individuals, and it actually doing something. That... is interesting. So I've decided to review the sphere. Nothing more than that.

Post Review Analysis: Kind of cool. Where some bleed talents got nerfed, you've also got the auto-incrementing blindness debuff. Disarm talents are really rather underwhelming. Not including the legendary talents, some of which are pretty cool.

(1) Superb: You always want this if it's relevant to you. And it probably is.
(1.5) Really Good: Particularly useful bits of kit, but aren't quite must-haves. (Kept it decimal, because spreading out Good so far from Superb felt unrepresentative. But I needed a step between)
(2) Good: These make useful additions to the right builds. Among your first picks.
(3) Meh: Doesn't hurt to have. Wouldn't go out of your way for it.

(4) No: It technically has a use, but the cost to take simply doesn't outweigh the benefit.
(5) Never: There’s no non-trivial reason to pick it up, from its mechanics.
(6+) Harmful: Taking/using this is actively detrimental to your character.

<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
[Square brackets] indicate a reliance on the group (players or DM) or campaign you’re playing in, and how well it does in those select groups.

Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(?) Unrated: I choose not to rate it. Often because it is just so far out of my wheelhouse, or it’s far too ambiguous.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
(D) D***bag: Used for when your character wants to be a D***bag.

Blooded Strike (3): On attack action or AoO, used to attack or disarm, you deal +1 bleed damage (increasing by 1 / 3 BAB). I'm going with it being a solid ability for a martial. It starts as half of Weapon Specialization, but by level 3 (which even I consider low level), it's equivalent in the one-turn damage. And it persistently does damage, and unlike normal bleed, it stacks. It's no huge bloody draw to the sphere, but it's a solid base sphere (again, for a martial).

But it only happens once per attack action, making it most effective for AoO-focused builds, and the main benefit of multiple attacks is to have a higher chance of proccing it that one time in the round. So actually it's probably just kinda meh on its own.

Bleed: You can trigger 1 (bleed) talent each time you inflict bleed damage with the Base sphere. It's not when they suffer damage from the bleed damage on their turn. Thus (bleed) talents don't ramp based on existing bleed.

Disarm: Trigger one (disarm) talent on a *successful* disarm attempt against a *creature.*


Ooze Ichor (1): Mandatory, if there's a chance of those types, unless bleed is simply not your concern.
…And Stay Down! [1] : This is not clearly written. Either the penalty to stand up is cumulative, or it's not. If it's not, this is a lot worse, due to being much less meaningful of a penalty. Skill checks vs save DCs tend to be easy. But it's still an added layer of "Well, I'm screwed" to being disarmed and tripped (and bleeding).

Vengeful Scorpion (1.5): As a stance, if you draw a weapon and then use it to tag someone with bleed damage, then until your next turn, if they attack you, they provoke AoO. That's 3 conditions, but they are rather easy. Granted, that last one is a bit harder if you're doing disarm, but you don't need to be.

Draw Cut (2): Readied attack action (or Counter Punch ability). If it's successful you also get a disarm (or sunder/feint) at the cost of 1 AoO. Assuming you've got plenty of AoOs, this is basically "Delay the attack action to get an extra maneuver that's probably going to be somewhat useful." Does need sheathed weapons, but works with thrown weapons.
Bloodied Shark’s Frenzy (2, F): Scent vs bleeding. Nice. The bonuses are pretty nice. Better than Weapon Focus. But it's got equal penalties. But you only need to hit once to turn those back into bonuses, and you probably plan to hit a lot.

Tandem Disarm (3): Second chance to disarm as an immediate action, so long as someone else also threatens them. Don't need to flank. You don't even need to threaten.
Bind Weapon (<3>, F): The mechanics leave a lot of room for flavor, and I love it. For the majority of the time, as a typical humanoid PC, you don't have enough weapons and limbs to spend binding enemy weapons. But it can work as a poor man's Natural Weapon disarm. Which... again, you typically don't have enough limbs to spend binding their claws as they bite you in the jugular. It can be a positive trade if you're dual wielding and the enemy's THF. You hit them one few time, but they can't hurt you at all.
Long Cuts (3): Useful. But gods on high. Why did they do +5 DC per 5 BAB? Just scale at a literal 1 to 1 rate. 5 + BAB should be equal to 5 + (5 / 5 BAB). Screw this scaling. At least with distances it makes sense to work in increments of 5. This has no reason.

Scar Tissue (4): Decent DR, for a perfectly passive martial source. No idea how the bleed reduction works in specific. Is it input bleed damage that adds to your bleed damage pool, or is it the damage you take from you accumulated bleed damage, or is it both? Good news? You probably won't need to know.
Defensive Slice (<4>, F): You are the Ghost of Tsushima, able to parry arrows. Problem being that arrows and such aren't incredibly common weapons of choice for enemies in my experience, and this has exactly that one use.

Hand Slasher (5): Their disarm and sunder attempts always provoke. Woo. If you've got 2 duelists with this talent, and mythic combat reflexes, you can enter an infinite loop.
Blooded Skeptic (5): Just the... strangest talent. I can't even identify an allusion the name's trying to make that would illicit such a... ham-fisted talent.
Greater Disarm (5): Specifically doesn't stack with Imp or Greater Disarm. Both of which are required to even pretend to be able to disarm. But the bonus breaks even at level 12. Problem being that Greater Disarm flings the disarmed weapon away, and this doesn't. That has to be done as a (disarm) talent. So you still might not actually want to give up the GD feat for anything in this sphere. But this qualifies as ID, letting you trade ID for Extra Martial Talent or whatever at level 13, and take this, and then you've got the full scaling bonus and weapon flinging. Comes on too late for me to care.

Focusing Advantage (?): Conditional swift action martial focus recovery. Except you probably will get this any way. Unless you're not using Disarm... in which case you've already ignored this.
Defiant Focus (?): It's an unconditional move action recover Martial Focus. That gets you to stow your weapon(s). That's cool for Iai Slash and Draw Cut.
Focusing Bloodshed (?): Conditional move action recover martial focus, that lets you make a touch attack to apply another stack of your Blooded Strike bleed.
Open Vein (?): Adds +2.5 damage, +2.5 / 3 BAB, But uses martial focus to do so, as a special attack action. I do not remember this being a SAA, but Crimson Dancer has memory holed it from the wiki. Assuming you're not looking for a different SAA to use, this adds fine damage. And it's stacking bleed damage at that. But I simply don't have a solid grasp as to the value of martial focus for a non-Alchemy SoM build.


Note on Bleed: Remember, Blooded Strike happens once per attack action, or AoO, regardless of how many attacks are in said attack action.
Clouding Cut (1): Martial Focus. Immediate 10% miss chance. Then increases by 10% each time they suffer damage from their bleeds, up to 40%, where it become blinded. If already affected by this, doesn't cost martial focus, and just increases miss chance by 10%.
Leg Cutter (1): You hit, then they save or fall down. An extra point of failure there, which isn't a think for most other (bleed) talents. But how screwed would you call the thug that's on his behind, with his knife thrown meters away, and is currently bleeding out surrounded by suddenly-more-menacing thugs?

Debilitating Injuries (1.5): At level 3, the percentage point drop in chance to hit is equal to Clouding Cut. (Percentage Point because if they hit 50% of the time and go to 40%, that's a 20% less chance to hit.) At level 6, it's superior. But doesn't intensify as Clouding Cut does, and unless you use crit confirmations, this doesn't protect from crits.
Slickened Grip (1.5): CM users need every last ounce of CM scaling. So while this is not as good as when it was able to escalate and ramp up, it's still a must-take for any disarm (and sunder) build, even if you care nothing for the bleed damage itself.

Cut Free (<2>, F): This really depends on how you read it as to just what bonus they get, but I absolutely love how you actually assist a fellow teammate in a sticky situation. Even if those situations aren't necessarily all too likely.

Perforating Wounds (4): Eh... an additional tiny bit of bleed, but it can't really stack with itself. Not like the base sphere. Really nerfed from before Crimson Dancer where it doubled the bleed as nonlethal bleed.

Blood Fountain (5): Generates unfriendly slippery terrain. Essentially: They get to freely move at 1/2 move speed, else they can try and save to move further. Everyone else walks around that square.
Invigorating Sights (5): I get it. "Vampiric," and all. But still not particularly good. But most of all? Disarm is already an incredible defensive layer, and not getting hit at all (such as with Clouding and Debilitating) are similarly strong defensive layers. And they aren't selfish layers... and Berserk sphere is already a thing. This is pretty much a knock off that steals 1 bleed from you. But also doesn't take an extra action. But also steals your opportunity for other (bleed) talents like Clouding Cut. Which is much bigger than 1 damage.

Hurricane Strike (?): You deal half weapon damage to every enemy in reach as an immediate (not AoO or Attack) action. So, you only get to do it once or twice a round at best. But the potential is there. I just don't have a clue what that potential is. Probably a good pick for a Goblin campaign.
Iai Slash (?): Lets you inflict mass bleed. Which is decent set up for your Bloodied Shark Frenzy talent, which could be seen as effectively a +2 to hit and damage, relative to if they weren't bleeding. But I dunno, honestly. I could probably be talked into it being good.

Swift Slice (1): Gets to immediately self-proc an AoO on the creature, if they were already bleeding. Which applies additional stacks of bleed (and bleed talents).

Twirling Disarm (2): Immediately deals disarmed weapon's base damage. No rolls, no actions, nothing. You just do some extra damage before tossing it off to the side.
Whirlwind Draw (2): Early game, you simply use a bunch of easily drawn weapons. This doesn't matter. But later on, when you've got particular weapons you enchanted, you may want this so as to easily proc Draw Cut (for the double dipping, and bringing in Boxer sphere to your scaling).

Finger Cutter (3): Mimics your base sphere effect. Unclear if it includes itself, as "other" meaning other sources, or "other" meaning other instances. If it doesn't stack, this is dumpster.

Traitorous Blade (4): Meh. Immediate action attempted attack with the disarmed weapon. Against anyone, and you have the weapon, so it can't even be picked up... but someone spending their entire turn to do so is soooo worth it. You don't need this.

Shattering Disarm (6): Yeah. No good reason to destroy a weapon you've not only disarmed them of, but also threw 15 ft that way. Better that they spend their entire turn chasing it down and grabbing it so you can do it again.

Whisking Disarm (7): No reason to trade out Greater Disarm for this until at least level 12. By which point, woo, you've thrown it 5 extra feat... Oh. Wait. This is not a passive proc. It's a disarm talent, which means it stops you from using other disarm talents!

-

Sever (1): DISARMED! And dislegged too. Granted, it's at best a 15% chance, but few things are more incapacitating for a martial type than losing their hands. And even beasts can lose their natural attack-granting limbs. Even typical spell casters have difficulty without hands.
Disarm Natural Ferocity (1): For disarm builds, this is almost mandatory so that you can consistently disarm, even when they have already been disarmed, or are a tentacled beast.
Curtain Call (1): Assuming you've got a good Iai slash build, with good reach, feats, and what have you, this is a massive amount of damage as just a move action.

Vacuum Cut (1.5): Adds a really good reach to your attack at the cost of 1 damage step (an average of 1 damage). That's really convenient. Makes it easy to get Curtain Call off, since you're rarely moving once you get into the thick of it. But you need to take this twice to enable the AoE (bleed) using this range, which is similarly required for Curtain Call.

Blackblood Strike (<2>):: Healers are sickened/nauseated for 1 round. At BAB 10, if your bleed damage is greater than Fast Healing or Regeneration, it is suppressed. Not many thing have Regeneration larger than 15 (required to stop your bleed accumulation) by CR 10. But they also stop being sickened when they regenerate. Strange that it isn't an optional suppression But it is occasionally useful.

Essence Manipulation (3): You now get your full bleed against all bleed immune targets, rather than half. This second half is less important than the first half, as having bleeding at all enables bleed talents. This is just more damage, and slightly greater reliability.
Dervish Launch (3): A free AoO against someone else in range on disarm? Neat. The most impressive thing about it is having a musket shoot at someone at no penalty as you send it flying across the room.

Vacuum Slice (4): Not bad on its own. In fact, for a martial it's really quite good. The thing is that it shares its action cost with another legendary talent in the same sphere. Curtain Call. Unless you've got a truly ridiculous weapon that's way above your WBL, a single cone attack isn't going to be the same damage. Even disregarding that Curtain Call potentially doesn't use martial focus, and comes online earlier.
Bleed Air (4): Compared to Clouding Cut? Only takes 2.5 turns on average to begin suffocating, vs 3 rounds to blind. But there is no penalty in the mean time, and grants a save to resist the initial Bleed Air. And then when starting to suffocate can make saves against each step (but doesn't end the effect). Granted, suffocation, once it starts, is effective death. There are just too many points of failure, even for instant death effect. The problem? Not everything needs to breathe by level 10. Ring of Sustenance is a shockingly common utility item that's really cheap by that time.
Jugular Cut (4): After an un-accelerate-able 3 round timer, they make fort saves every round or die. That's... neat. Level 15 though?

Bloody Hell (?): A nonmagical banishment effect to a strongly-aligned evil plane. Sure, plane shift is more common at level 15, but that's still banishment to an implicitly hostile plane of existence. I... have no context for how overwhelming this is.

paladinn
2022-03-27, 10:31 PM
I'm assuming the "spheres" mentioned are from "Spheres of Power"?

Is this considered a core part of 3e or Pathfinder? I'm not at all familiar.

pabelfly
2022-03-28, 01:10 AM
I'm assuming the "spheres" mentioned are from "Spheres of Power"?

Is this considered a core part of 3e or Pathfinder? I'm not at all familiar.

Spheres of Power is a third-party addition to Pathfinder and is generally pretty well-regarded.

SangoProduction
2022-03-28, 03:17 AM
Spheres of Power is a third-party addition to Pathfinder and is generally pretty well-regarded.

Thank you for getting that while I was a sleep.

Kitsuneymg
2022-03-28, 03:48 AM
Iai slash is really good once you get your second vacuum cut. Add in curtain call for fun. Standard action make the room bleed, move to make them fountain blood.

I’m currently using counterpunch (drawback that lets you use it with a rapier) and draw cut and swift slice. I get to smack someone, disarm them (makes them bleed because this is my attack action,) and then smack them again. Iai slash let’s me attack additional foes. These are all AoOs.

It’s far from the most damaging character I’ve made, but it is funny how no one ever has weapons in hand. Sadly, I think a sage build does it all better. But that’s probably true for literally every thing sages can do.

SangoProduction
2022-03-28, 04:17 AM
Iai slash is really good once you get your second vacuum cut. Add in curtain call for fun. Standard action make the room bleed, move to make them fountain blood.

I’m currently using counterpunch (drawback that lets you use it with a rapier) and draw cut and swift slice. I get to smack someone, disarm them (makes them bleed because this is my attack action,) and then smack them again. Iai slash let’s me attack additional foes. These are all AoOs.

It’s far from the most damaging character I’ve made, but it is funny how no one ever has weapons in hand. Sadly, I think a sage build does it all better. But that’s probably true for literally every thing sages can do.

Yeah, Duelist legendary talents are unusually fun. And yes, Sages are quite over the top. They had a pretty poor sense of balance when making the Champion of the Spheres' base classes. At least the archetypes, while generally a positive trade, are balanced.

StSword
2022-03-28, 12:16 PM
I'm assuming the "spheres" mentioned are from "Spheres of Power"?

Is this considered a core part of 3e or Pathfinder? I'm not at all familiar.

To give a more detailed answer- Spheres of Power is a third party supplemental system for Pathfinder and later for 5e that I believe is inspired by the warlock, one of the spheres is Destruction which allows one to blast all day just like a 3e warlock.

Thematically it can be whatever you want, it has traditions so you can define your spherecasting as Warlocky pacts, or Binder like spirit summoning, or clerical theurgy, or wizardry scholarship, or steampunk inventions, or psychic powers, or rune carving, or incarnum like constructs, or alchemy, or wuxia martial arts, or whatever you and your DM can agree on.

Which means a SoP game can replace the standard "Vancian" magic, be an alternative type of magic, or a completely unrelated system setting wise.

Spheres of Might is a sister supplemental system to give nice things to martials, generally based around spending standard actions instead of the usual "full attack full attack full attack."

You can check out the wiki here (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/), see if it's something you'd like to use.

There was also a kickstarter to do a third sister supplement, spheres of guile, for skill monkey types, but it's not out quite yet.

EndlessKng
2022-03-29, 10:40 AM
Definitely agree with the question mark for "Bloody Hell" as it's super dependent on the setting's cosmology AND the target's capabilities.

For instance, sending them to a Dante-esque Inferno that is meant to imprison and punish sinners? REALLY bad for the target, especially if they lack or aren't able to use planar travel. Sending a lawful evil individual to Baator? Not as certain - they may well be able to make a deal to escape, or get more power. Another consideration that empowers the ability is that, in a Spheres-based game, even high-level casters may not have planar travel options if they didn't pick spheres to grant them (Warp is the one that I know off-hand has it as an option).

One thing I will note is that the backlash can be painful, though by that level it would be manageable. It's not a technique without risk.

So... yeah, ? is appropriate. Though your "F" (Flavor") rating may also apply. So might "D" thought it would be more situational IMO.

SangoProduction
2022-03-29, 10:46 AM
You know? I've really only ever used the D rating for the weather sphere. lol. Basically was for "This causes immense civilian casualties, but has almost no effect on actual opponents." Not sure why I've kept it around. I figured that I'd eventually find something else appropriate to that.

EndlessKng
2022-03-29, 01:56 PM
Ah, well by that metric then probably not - it CAN be used dickishly, but it isn't as indiscriminate as that - any move can be used dickishly, really.

Still... it's such a weird move.

Kitsuneymg
2022-03-31, 08:20 PM
You know? I've really only ever used the D rating for the weather sphere. lol. Basically was for "This causes immense civilian casualties, but has almost no effect on actual opponents." Not sure why I've kept it around. I figured that I'd eventually find something else appropriate to that.

Metal Geomancing?