3.5 unarmed Fighter/Planar Champion feat choices

[Laughing Dog]

So I am currently toying around with a build for a character. As the title suggests it is a Fighter/Planar Champion that specializes in unarmed strike. I really like the idea of being able to rip holes in reality with my bare (and/or armored) hands.
What I am asking for is help with feat choices (other than the obvious [Superior Unarmed Strike] and feat tax [those being Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization]).

My basic idea is Human Fighter6/Planar Champion8/Fighter12
That said, only the first four levels of Fighter are truly necessary.

Things I'd like to avoid:

Full/'Partial' casting/manifesting/initiating/etc. Having a few abilities as utility is fine and even desirable, but the main point of the character is that he is not Batman.
Extreme Cheese.
Obvious Joke Feats/Classes/whatever.
Campaign-setting specific items (i.e. nothing that requires the character to be from Faerun, Greyhawk, Ebberon, Ravenloft, so on and so forth.)




Flat out banlist:

Frostburn
Stromwrack
Sandstorm


Thank you if you choose to help.

Laughing Dog

[NinjaGuy]

Fighters aren't great choices, as they have very little but feats going for them. If the only reason you're picking Fighter is to qualify for Planar Champion, I'd recommend highly Warblade from Tome of Battle instead, who count as Fighters -2 for the purpose of Fighter feat qualification. So at level 6 of Warblade you could take a Weapon Specialization.

If that isn't the only reason you're going for a Fighter, maybe take a look at some of the alternate class features available to a Fighter. Hit and Run Tactics, from Drow of the Underdark gives Fighters DEX to damage to flat footed foes and +2 to initiative. And if you do plan on sticking around in Fighter the Planar Handbook's Planar Fighter alternate class feature can help you overcome damage reductions with your fists, which would be difficult to do without any Monk levels or magic/psionics.

Snap Kick is a nice feat for an additional unarmed attack (with -2 to hit to your other attacks), regardless of the attack action you tack it onto (standard action attack, full attack, even maneuvers).

Also, if you're planning on playing it, what does your party look like? What level are you starting at?

[ciopo]

the planar touchstone from the planar handbook seems an obvious thematic pick, and you can even pick it more than once!

Does the Jaunter prc from demonpits strike your fancy? it has "must have visited two other planes" prerequisite, some horribel feat taxes (spring attack, that you can mostly pay with fighter bonus feats!), but over 4 levels it grants you a bunch of SLA themed around teleportation capstoning with plane shift, plus "at will" freedom of movement and "at will" dimension door *

* they're not at will at all, but the level*2 round/day split as you like for the FoM and 10*3*level feet/day split as you like are essentially "as much as you need" for most days

Something like fighter 6/Pln champ 8/jaunter 4/XX 2 ( more fighter? *le shrug*)

You could qualify for jaunter 4 with fighter 4 actually, so you could simply go fighter 4/jaunter4/champion8/XX 4

[pabelfly]

Race: Orc
Build Stub Barbarian 1/Fighter 10/Planar Champion 9

Feats
1: Keeper of Forbidden Lore
F1: Improved Unarmed Strike
F2: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Headlong Rush
F4: Weapon Focus
6: Weapon Specialization
F6 (Level 8): Resolute ACF
9: Melee Weapon Master
12: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
F8 (Level 14): Crushing Strike
15: Greater Weapon Focus
18: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
F10 (Level 20): Greater Weapon Specialization

STR - 18 base + 4 Racial + 4 Level + 6 Item - 32 STR (+11)

Attack Rolls - 20 BAB + 11 STR + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Greater Weapon Focus + 2 Melee Weapon Master - 2 Two-Weapon Fighting
33/33/28/28/23/23/18

Damage - 1d3 + STR (11 main, 5 offhand) + 2 Weapon Specialization + 2 Melee Weapon Master + 2 Greater Weapon Specialization x 2 Headlong Rush
Damage - 2d3 + 34 (Main) or + 22 (Offhand) (charge attack)

Given the starting conditions, this is decent damage should conditions work. Crushing Strike will reduce opponent's AC making damage per turn much more than what is initially apparent.

[Laughing Dog]

First off, thank you all for your replies.

Fighters aren't great choices, as they have very little but feats going for them. If the only reason you're picking Fighter is to qualify for Planar Champion, I'd recommend highly Warblade from Tome of Battle instead, who count as Fighters -2 for the purpose of Fighter feat qualification. So at level 6 of Warblade you could take a Weapon Specialization.

If that isn't the only reason you're going for a Fighter, maybe take a look at some of the alternate class features available to a Fighter. Hit and Run Tactics, from Drow of the Underdark gives Fighters DEX to damage to flat footed foes and +2 to initiative. And if you do plan on sticking around in Fighter the Planar Handbook's Planar Fighter alternate class feature can help you overcome damage reductions with your fists, which would be difficult to do without any Monk levels or magic/psionics.

Snap Kick is a nice feat for an additional unarmed attack (with -2 to hit to your other attacks), regardless of the attack action you tack it onto (standard action attack, full attack, even maneuvers).

Also, if you're planning on playing it, what does your party look like? What level are you starting at?
Warblade is a no-go; I don't mind having initiating, but I actually like the relative simplicity of the fighter class. I'll have to check out the Hit and Run tactics, I figured enchanted gauntlets if my character knew before hand about the enemy having DR, and Snap Kick is being considered.

the planar touchstone from the planar handbook seems an obvious thematic pick, and you can even pick it more than once!

Does the Jaunter prc from demonpits strike your fancy? it has "must have visited two other planes" prerequisite, some horribel feat taxes (spring attack, that you can mostly pay with fighter bonus feats!), but over 4 levels it grants you a bunch of SLA themed around teleportation capstoning with plane shift, plus "at will" freedom of movement and "at will" dimension door *

* they're not at will at all, but the level*2 round/day split as you like for the FoM and 10*3*level feet/day split as you like are essentially "as much as you need" for most days

Something like fighter 6/Pln champ 8/jaunter 4/XX 2 ( more fighter? *le shrug*)

You could qualify for jaunter 4 with fighter 4 actually, so you could simply go fighter 4/jaunter4/champion8/XX 4
Can you believe I actually forgot about the planar handbook? I'll have to look through it when I get home. Jaunter looks interesting, might even be worth delaying entry into planar champion for a level. That said, you actually cannot qualify for it with ftr 4 (unless you use the planar substitution level at Lvl 4) as knowledge (the planes) is a cross-class skill for a fighter and as such would only have 4 ranks possible at level 5. 8 levels of fighter gets Greater Weapon Focus, so that's something.


Race: Orc
Build Stub Barbarian 1/Fighter 10/Planar Champion 9

Feats
1: Keeper of Forbidden Lore
F1: Improved Unarmed Strike
F2: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Headlong Rush
F4: Weapon Focus
6: Weapon Specialization
F6 (Level 8): Resolute ACF
9: Melee Weapon Master
12: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
F8 (Level 14): Crushing Strike
15: Greater Weapon Focus
18: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
F10 (Level 20): Greater Weapon Specialization

STR - 18 base + 4 Racial + 4 Level + 6 Item - 32 STR (+11)

Attack Rolls - 20 BAB + 11 STR + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Greater Weapon Focus + 2 Melee Weapon Master - 2 Two-Weapon Fighting
33/33/28/28/23/23/18

Damage - 1d3 + STR (11 main, 5 offhand) + 2 Weapon Specialization + 2 Melee Weapon Master + 2 Greater Weapon Specialization x 2 Headlong Rush
Damage - 2d3 + 34 (Main) or + 22 (Offhand) (charge attack)

Given the starting conditions, this is decent damage should conditions work. Crushing Strike will reduce opponent's AC making damage per turn much more than what is initially apparent.

So why barbarian 1 and the 9th level of planar champion? I mean, the damage reduction (10/magic) isn't really worth it at the minimum character level you could take it. (What threats can't overcome that at level 15?) Also, iirc Greater Weapon Specialization requires 12 levels of Fighter, so that wouldn't work. (So you know, I'm just curious about the reasoning, to see what could be useful and why.)

[pabelfly]

First off, thank you all for your replies.

So why barbarian 1 and the 9th level of planar champion? I mean, the damage reduction (10/magic) isn't really worth it at the minimum character level you could take it. (What threats can't overcome that at level 15?) Also, iirc Greater Weapon Specialization requires 12 levels of Fighter, so that wouldn't work. (So you know, I'm just curious about the reasoning, to see what could be useful and why.)

Made a few minor mistakes but a quick rework should make it okay. Damage output and accuracy are still the same:

Race: Orc
Build Stub Barbarian 1/Fighter 10/Planar Champion

Feats
1: Keeper of Forbidden Lore
F1: Improved Unarmed Strike
F2: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Headlong Rush
F4: Weapon Focus
6: Weapon Specialization
F6 (Level 8): Resolute ACF
9: Melee Weapon Master
12: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
F8 (Level 14): Crushing Strike
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18: Claws of the Beast
F10 (Level 20): Greater Weapon Focus

Barbarian 1 gives you Pounce (Spiritual Totem Barbarian, Lion Totem). To backtrack a bit - the regular attack routine for a character is to move (standard action) and attack (once, with full Base Attack Bonus, plus or minus any accuracy modifiers like strength and Weapon Focus). You want to move and hit multiple times in a turn though, so you need to find a way to get that ability. This is a handy thread with a list of ways to get that ability: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement

The easiest way for this build is Pounce. We charge at the enemy, which not only allows us to get a full attack off, but also lets us make use of the feat Headlong Rush, which doubles our damage output.

Why Planar Champion 9? I've elected to keep this build stub fairly simple, and kept in mind multiclassing penalties. It's pointless to take Fighter 11, since you don't get anything out of it. You could take Barbarian 2 instead, but that has different minor bonuses, and I wanted to try to fit in as much of your chosen prestige class as possible.

[Rebel7284]

Is Dragon Magazine allowed?

City Brawler barbarian from Dragon Magazine #349 seems like it would be great for one level:

You gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, as well as the effects of Two-Weapon Fighting feat when fighting unarmed.

Combine this with Spiritual Lion Totem for pounce and you get an amazing one level dip for this character concept with two bonus feats to boot.

Also, I am genuinely confused about your animus toward Warblade. Your fighter having the ability to rip a portal from the fabric of reality is okay, but using Mountain Hammer to rip a hole in a physical wall is too much? I understand not wanting to use certain poorly written maneuvers like Iron Heart Surge, but there should be enough maneuvers that you can select that help out your theme while making combat a bit more interesting. But hey, do whatever brings you joy, and if it isn't warblade, than that's all good. :smallsmile:

What level are you actually starting at? Your original post has 26 character levels. Are you actually starting in Epic? That might result in different advice than if you were playing the character from level 1.

Regardless, charging feats are always useful for a fighter trying to optimize damage, often combined with a few ways to get free movement. The usual suite of Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Headlong Rush/Dragonborn Diving bonuses/etc. since vaporizing your enemies into a fine mist never goes out of style.

[Laughing Dog]

Thanks for more replies!
Also, I should probably note that I'm not necessarily looking to be the high damage dealer, as I am perfectly fine with being a meat-shield/just-big-enough-threat-that-the-enemy-really-cannot-afford-to-ignore. That said, high damage dealers are definitely useful as well.

Made a few minor mistakes but a quick rework should make it okay. Damage output and accuracy are still the same:

Race: Orc
Build Stub Barbarian 1/Fighter 10/Planar Champion

Feats
1: Keeper of Forbidden Lore
F1: Improved Unarmed Strike
F2: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Headlong Rush
F4: Weapon Focus
6: Weapon Specialization
F6 (Level 8): Resolute ACF
9: Melee Weapon Master
12: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
F8 (Level 14): Crushing Strike
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18: Claws of the Beast
F10 (Level 20): Greater Weapon Focus

Barbarian 1 gives you Pounce (Spiritual Totem Barbarian, Lion Totem). To backtrack a bit - the regular attack routine for a character is to move (standard action) and attack (once, with full Base Attack Bonus, plus or minus any accuracy modifiers like strength and Weapon Focus). You want to move and hit multiple times in a turn though, so you need to find a way to get that ability. This is a handy thread with a list of ways to get that ability: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement

The easiest way for this build is Pounce. We charge at the enemy, which not only allows us to get a full attack off, but also lets us make use of the feat Headlong Rush, which doubles our damage output.

Why Planar Champion 9? I've elected to keep this build stub fairly simple, and kept in mind multiclassing penalties. It's pointless to take Fighter 11, since you don't get anything out of it. You could take Barbarian 2 instead, but that has different minor bonuses, and I wanted to try to fit in as much of your chosen prestige class as possible. Okay, I see your reasoning there. I did find another error with the build (Headlong Rush requires base attack bonus +4, and as such is not accessible at 3rd level. Keeper of Forbidden Lore is there (at least in the original stub) to grant Knowledge (the planes) as a permanent class skill; which while helpful, isn't actually necessary to qualify for Planar Champion (this only requires 4 ranks, which a core only fighter can get at level 5). However it is also being used in conjunction with Claws of the Beast to boost unarmed damage by +2 at the cost of a permanently chaotic alignment (and a few minor penalties to skills that likely wouldn't be used anyways). Resolute is there for an emergency +1/2 my character level (at least, pre-epic) bonus to will saves. Definitely a good oh crap power to have in the back pocket. Crushing Strike actually improves attack bonus instead of reducing enemy armor class, but the effect is roughly the same. That also looks to enable the two weapon fighting components. Thanks for the link to the thread.

Is Dragon Magazine allowed?

City Brawler barbarian from Dragon Magazine #349 seems like it would be great for one level:


Combine this with Spiritual Lion Totem for pounce and you get an amazing one level dip for this character concept with two bonus feats to boot.

Also, I am genuinely confused about your animus toward Warblade. Your fighter having the ability to rip a portal from the fabric of reality is okay, but using Mountain Hammer to rip a hole in a physical wall is too much? I understand not wanting to use certain poorly written maneuvers like Iron Heart Surge, but there should be enough maneuvers that you can select that help out your theme while making combat a bit more interesting. But hey, do whatever brings you joy, and if it isn't warblade, than that's all good. :smallsmile:

What level are you actually starting at? Your original post has 26 character levels. Are you actually starting in Epic? That might result in different advice than if you were playing the character from level 1.

Regardless, charging feats are always useful for a fighter trying to optimize damage, often combined with a few ways to get free movement. The usual suite of Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Headlong Rush/Dragonborn Diving bonuses/etc. since vaporizing your enemies into a fine mist never goes out of style.
Dragon magazine may or may not be, generally a case-by-case basis.
Can you actually combine two ACFs on a single level? It's less an animus towards Warblade and more a preference for classes with passive bonuses and abilities. This mostly due to my poor reaction time and tendency to mentally blank in snap judgement situations. And I have no problem with maneuvers themselves. I just don't want them to be the main shtick of the character. (Also, if I wanted a hole in a wall and the mage isn't available, I could probably improvise a battering ram out of something. A trestle table perhaps?:smalltongue:)Would need to find a battle loving dwarf with a tendency to bar-fight to help though.

Actually the original post was meant to show a Level 20 build, just noting that Fighter levels 7-12 were taken after Planar champion had been taken.

[Zombulian]

At the risk of being the guy that tells you to simply play something other than what you asked about, the Jaunter PrC from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits can be entered with straight Fighter and probably works better in actual play than Planar Champion, especially since it comes online earlier. Heck, you’d probably even have room to slap Planar Champion in there on top of it - though I don’t know why you would.

Dungeoncrasher Fighter is maybe worth a look! Not sure if it plays well with unarmed though, been awhile since I’ve looked at it.

[pabelfly]

Okay, I see your reasoning there. I did find another error with the build (Headlong Rush requires base attack bonus +4, and as such is not accessible at 3rd level. Keeper of Forbidden Lore is there (at least in the original stub) to grant Knowledge (the planes) as a permanent class skill; which while helpful, isn't actually necessary to qualify for Planar Champion (this only requires 4 ranks, which a core only fighter can get at level 5). However it is also being used in conjunction with Claws of the Beast to boost unarmed damage by +2 at the cost of a permanently chaotic alignment (and a few minor penalties to skills that likely wouldn't be used anyways). Resolute is there for an emergency +1/2 my character level (at least, pre-epic) bonus to will saves. Definitely a good oh crap power to have in the back pocket. Crushing Strike actually improves attack bonus instead of reducing enemy armor class, but the effect is roughly the same. That also looks to enable the two weapon fighting components. Thanks for the link to the thread.

Keeper of Forbidden Lore gets Knowledge (Planes) as a class skill (there are other ways to get this), but it also gives you a bonus to Knowledge (Planes) checks. You can get enough ranks in Knowledge (Planes) cross-class to enter the class, true, but I don't like cross-class skills because I find that messy. If I'm doing a build with a lot of Fighter levels, I like spending some of my feats to get extra skills that I can use out of battle. Presuming your DM is going to work with you regarding your class, you'll also use Knowledge (Planes) to give you knowledge for any planar adventures.

[Rebel7284]

Can you actually combine two ACFs on a single level?

I don't know if this was ever explicitly stated anywhere, but there is a consensus that you can, (assuming you are not trading away the same class feature twice.)

It gets a little more murky when it's variant class + alternate class feature + substitution levels or some such, but in general, two ACFs should be good.

[NinjaGuy]

At the risk of being the guy that tells you to simply play something other than what you asked about, the Jaunter PrC from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits can be entered with straight Fighter and probably works better in actual play than Planar Champion, especially since it comes online earlier. Heck, you’d probably even have room to slap Planar Champion in there on top of it - though I don’t know why you would.

It's funny, that I had Jaunter in mind when I first went to reply, but by the time I finished reading Planar Champion and came out of the rabbit hole it sent me down I hadn't forgotten where I started. Jaunter is the class you should use, and you should just re-fluff it to do all of its inter-dimensional hopping by tearing open space/time fabric bare handed. Planar Champion is underwhelming to say the least, and barely provides anything of that Jaunter doesn't, and Jaunter allows you to do those things more often, earlier, with fewer levels invested...

I threw together two builds one with, and one without Planar Champion.

Human (or Strongheart Halfling) Hit and Run Tactics Fighter 4/ Jaunter 4/ Fighter 4/ Planar Champion 8

1 - Fighter - Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Improved Unarmed Strike
2 - Fighter - Dodge
3 - Fighter - Mobility
4 - Fighter - Spring Attack
5 - Jaunter -
6 - Jaunter - Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
7 - Jaunter -
8 - Jaunter -
9 - Fighter - Snap Kick
10 - Fighter - Martial Study (Cloak of Deception)
11 - Fighter -
12 - Fighter - Martial Stance (Child of Shadow), Shadow Blade
13 - Planar Champion -
14 - Planar Champion -
15 - Planar Champion - Gloom Razor
16 - Planar Champion -
17 - Planar Champion -
18 - Planar Champion - Bounding Assault OR Elusive Target
19 - Planar Champion -
20 - Planar Champion -

Jaunter abilities are DEX based, and a high DEX offers more daily uses, so why not pump that through the roof and focus it.
Hit and Run Fighter for DEX to damage when your opponent is flat footed/flanked, which is going to be often if you're picking the right square for your Spring Attacks.

Weapon Finesse for Dex to hit.
Snap Kick for 2 unarmed strikes on a Spring Attack, charge, or an extra attack in your full attack action.
Martial Study gives the ability to learn a single maneuver, which a prerequisite for Martial Stance, and Cloak of Deception is for the moment in the fight where your Champion starts a round with someone, or something, standing right in front of them. Greater Invisibility for a round, means DEX to damage on a full attack, including your Snap Kick.
Martial Stance is a prerequisite for Shadow Blade, and Child of Shadow offers concealment once you've moved 10 feet in a round, which is means no more provoking attacks of opportunity when you're spring attacking your enemies.
Shadow Blade gives you DEX to damage with Shadow Hand weapons, which includes unarmed strikes, so now 2*DEX for flat footed/flanked.
Gloom Razor gives 3 nice abilities for a Spring Attacker, such as yourself:
- Lingering Gloom: When your opponent must miss you due to concealment (thanks Child of Shadow), on your next turn, you can make a Hide check opposed by your foe's Spot check as a swift action. If this check succeeds, you gain the benefit of an invisibility spell against that foe until the end of your turn. Very nice.
- Moving Shadows: If you deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack and move at least 10 feet during your turn (which is the tactic), on your next turn, you can treat that enemy as flat-footed against the first melee attack you make in that round. Not bad.
- Shadow Slip: If you successfully attack an opponent you flank in melee, on your next turn you can make a DC 20 Tumble check if you are adjacent to your foe and if this check succeeds, as a free action you can move to any square adjacent to your opponent without provoking attacks of opportunity from any opponent. Nice free action mobility.
Finally, Bounding Assault can allow you to Spring Attack a second person on your turn, given you can make it, or the always wonderful Elusive target, which offers up 3 juicy defensive capabilities:
- Negate Power Attack: When you must designate a specific foe to be affected by your Dodge feat. If that foe uses the Power Attack feat against you, the foe gains no bonus on the damage roll but still takes the corresponding penalty on the attack roll. Hahahahahahahah... ahh. Wonderfully juicy.
- Diverting Defense: If you are flanked and you designate one of the flanking attackers to be affected by your Dodge feat, the first attack of the round from the designated attacker automatically misses you and may strike the other flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally, and its ally is considered flatfooted. If the designated attacker is making a full attack against you, its second and subsequent attacks function normally. Juicy.
- Cause Overreach: To use this maneuver, you must provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe by moving out of a threatened square. If the foe misses you, you can make a free trip attempt against this foe, and the foe does not get a chance to trip you if your attempt fails. Prone foes get -4 AC for melee, and provoke AoOs when standing up. Less juicy, but no retaliation trip on a failure helps its juicyness.




I went with the ever so useful Legacy Champion!

Human (or Strongheart Halfling) Hit and Run Tactics Fighter 4/ Jaunter 4/ Fighter 2/ Legacy Champion 10

1 - Fighter - Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ancestral Relic (Gauntlets)
2 - Fighter - Dodge
3 - Fighter - Mobility
4 - Fighter - Spring Attack
5 - Jaunter -
6 - Jaunter - Snap Kick
7 - Jaunter -
8 - Jaunter -
9 - Fighter - Least Legacy
10 - Fighter - Martial Study (Cloak of Deception)
11 - Legacy Champion -
12 - Legacy Champion - Martial Stance (Child of Shadow)
13 - Legacy Champion -
14 - Legacy Champion - Bonus Legacy Feat
15 - Legacy Champion - Shadow Blade
16 - Legacy Champion -
17 - Legacy Champion -
18 - Legacy Champion - Gloom Razor, Bonus Legacy Feat
19 - Legacy Champion -
20 - Legacy Champion -

This build loses about 10 HP, and 3 BAB compared to the last but you gain so much more. For 8/10 levels you gain effective levels of Jaunter, meaning 12+DEX uses of your Travel Power daily, instead your normal 4+DEX. but not only that, you can create your own legacy item that can do almost anything you want it to! It has list of
https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/36/590x/Avengers-4-Endgame-spoilers-Infinity-Gauntlet-work-how-does-infinity-stones-snap-thanos-1120063.jpg?r=1556461938744


Hell, pretend its named Planar Champion if you want; it's not hat much of a leap, Champion is already in the title! Here's a link to help build one. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=485.0)

And if you're not into Legacy Champion, I'd still recommend another prestige class over Planar Champion. What kind of inter-dimensional enemies do you plan on whomping? Maybe Hellreaver if you're going to being slaying evil outsiders? Dread Commando for full BAB stealth, and a juicy team initiative bonus, for which you'd already qualify?