Good D20 Social Combat system?

[Blackhawk748]

Yes, I'm aware that the D20 system wasn't meant for social combat, but I've also never actually seen anyone actually TRY. It's usually either a copy of the terrible 3.5 rules or some basic lip service that amounts to "wing it"

Has anyone seen one or is this pretty much the norm?

[Saintheart]

Not d20, but I think for its particular setting the Intrigue Combat rules in A Song of Ice and Fire RPG by Green Ronin are nice. Lots of depth and seems to fit with the setting since it's more about social combat than physical. But I don't think the system works too well in d20 world. And it's way too easy to break the system by optimising or throwing all your bonuses at the primary ability underlying intrigue, and worse still if you start introducing even mildly strong magic to the system.

[Blackhawk748]

Not d20, but I think for its particular setting the Intrigue Combat rules in A Song of Ice and Fire RPG by Green Ronin are nice. Lots of depth and seems to fit with the setting since it's more about social combat than physical. But I don't think the system works too well in d20 world. And it's way too easy to break the system by optimising or throwing all your bonuses at the primary ability underlying intrigue, and worse still if you start introducing even mildly strong magic to the system.

That's kinda the thing I notice a lot. They seem to work fine, if you either don't push it to hard or don't have a lot of magic to mess with it more. And that kinda annoys me.

Like, I'm just poking around for infor because I'm making an E6 system, and so if it breaks at level 10 I don't care, but most break at level 1 and it's really annoying

[MornShine]

So.

There's an entire supplement based around this, called Ultimate Intrigue, in Pathfinder.

It has a very robust, but complex and sometimes unrewarding system.

I don't really have any experience with it, but the rules are available freely and legally online.

[Blackhawk748]

So.

There's an entire supplement based around this, called Ultimate Intrigue, in Pathfinder.

It has a very robust, but complex and sometimes unrewarding system.

I don't really have any experience with it, but the rules are available freely and legally online.

I'll have to take a look. However, the fact that I've never heard of them until now does not fill me with confidence. I hope my cynicism is misplaced

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MornShine
There's an entire supplement based around this, called Ultimate Intrigue, in Pathfinder.

It has a very robust, but complex and sometimes unrewarding system.


Originally Posted by Blackhawk748
I'll have to take a look. However, the fact that I've never heard of them until now does not fill me with confidence.

I was going to mention Ultimate Intrigue, but wasn’t sure if that was quite what the OP was looking for.

I wouldn’t say that the entire book is based around social combat, but it does have some involved rules on the topic. They’re poorly organized and not easy to follow, and I keep meaning to go through them and try to map out exactly how they work.

They’re featured in War for the Crown, one of the later first edition APs; I don’t know if they appear anywhere else. Definitely worth a look, but be prepared to invest some time in it.

[MornShine]

The rules (and DM guidelines) can be found at https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/social-conflicts, which has much more readable structure than the official Pathfinder wiki (and is an endorsed OGL-host).

The rules which I most remember are the Verbal Duel rules, I recommend reading those.

You may not have heard of them because Ultimate Intrigue is a fairly recent and fairly obscure sourcebook, if I recall correctly.

[Rynjin]

I'll have to take a look. However, the fact that I've never heard of them until now does not fill me with confidence. I hope my cynicism is misplaced

I've had a lot of fun with them, playing in the War for the Crown campaign they were written for. They're a very nice way to not only add a little meat to social encounters, but to give EVERYONE a chance to participate, as theoretically ANY skill can be used for social combat purposes if it fits the character in question.

As an example from said Adventure Path, there's an NPC who is a high ranking general. Diplomacy, obviously, works to persuade him over to your side, as usual. But you could also, say, win him over to your side with a Ride check, bonding over your shared love of horses. Alternately, perhaps a Profession (Soldier) or Kn. History check to analyze and discuss ancient battles could warm him up to further attempts at conversation.

Verbal Duels are a bit clunkier than the wider social combat system, but still serviceable and interesting in their own way.

[Faily]

Yeah I've only used the Ultimate Intrigue rules in War For The Crown AP, but I felt it worked pretty well. There were different types of approaches and rolls, making it so that it didn't come down to just one roll deciding everything, and also avoiding the "like fighting but with Skills and Social HP"-thing that a lot of other systems fall into.


I have played the Song of Ice And Fire RPG, and while the Intrigue rules there have a lot more thought into them than most other game-systems put into their social encounters, it is also poorly balanced. Building "attack" is much easier than "defense", and those who are somewhat decent at intrigue will demolish almost anyone in an intrigue.

[Blackhawk748]

I've had a lot of fun with them, playing in the War for the Crown campaign they were written for. They're a very nice way to not only add a little meat to social encounters, but to give EVERYONE a chance to participate, as theoretically ANY skill can be used for social combat purposes if it fits the character in question.

As an example from said Adventure Path, there's an NPC who is a high ranking general. Diplomacy, obviously, works to persuade him over to your side, as usual. But you could also, say, win him over to your side with a Ride check, bonding over your shared love of horses. Alternately, perhaps a Profession (Soldier) or Kn. History check to analyze and discuss ancient battles could warm him up to further attempts at conversation.

Verbal Duels are a bit clunkier than the wider social combat system, but still serviceable and interesting in their own way.

So, as far as I'm in here, which is just talking about Social Challenges. I am reminded of Star Wars Saga Editions Skill Challenges, just spread over a longer period of time.

Haven't gotten to the rest yet

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk748
So, as far as I'm in here, which is just talking about Social Challenges.

I can't follow your syntax here.

As for the suggestions, I wasn't sure if Pathfinder's social rules were what you were looking for.


Originally Posted by MornShine
...Ultimate Intrigue is a fairly recent and fairly obscure sourcebook, if I recall correctly.

Ultimate Intrigue is from 2016, so five years and change. I wouldn't call it obscure, since it was eagerly anticipated within the Pathfinder community.

[20potter]

At one point in time I made some rules for social combat for pathfinder.

The system was an attempt to make social combat work with combat combat. That is to say to include a mechanic for talking down an opponent. It basically turns social skills (diplomacy, intimidate, bluff, and Handle animal) into weapons. It adds social damage which is like non-lethal but heals quicker.

Here is a copy of the doc since I can't link it at the moment.

Basics
Combat in the social system involves making an attack with a social weapon, vs your opponents social defense. This does social damage. Social damage bears a lot of similarities to non-lethal damage. If an individual has non-lethal + Social damage equal to the target’s current health then the target gets the Talked Down condition.

Healing Social Damage
When you heal damage you also heal an equal amount of social damage. In addition you can spend a minute of contemplation to reduce your social damage to 0.
Concealing words
When attacking with a Social weapon you can conceal your attack in two different ways as a free action. Through deceit and through stealth. You can conceal your words in both manners if you desire.

Concealing through deceit
You may make a bluff check to hide your intent. The bluff is against a sense motive check. On a success the target doesn’t realize that they were damaged by the words. Those in the vicinity who also heard the words may make a sense motive check to detect the damage. A third party who has overheard and succeeded on their sense motive check can attempt to reveal the damage. They do that by making a diplomacy check against the result of your original bluff. On a success the damage is revealed.

Concealing through stealth
You may make a stealth check to conceal your words from others. Doing so will not conceal your words from your target. The range of your social weapon is reduced by half when concealing your words in this manner. The stealth can be countered by a perception check to hear the words.

Offhand Remark
An offhand remark is an attack with a social weapon that can replace an off hand attack. When making an Offhand Remark the damage from your social weapon is reduced by 1 size category.(1d4 by default) An Offhand Remark takes the same penalties as an off hand attack treating the weapon as a light weapon. Talking Big will increase the penalties to that of a one handed weapon. Talking small reduces the penalties but can’t reduce them below a light weapon.
Social Weapons
Social weapons add charisma to damage. Social weapons are not ranged, or melee weapons. Instead they are social weapons, and attacking with them is a social attack. Social weapons may be selected for weapon related feats such as weapon focus or weapon specialization. Social weapons are part of the Social Weapon group, which can be selected as a weapon group. Attacking with a social weapons by default provokes an attack of opportunity.

Social Weapon
Damage
Critical
Range
Type
Special
Words of Persuasion
1d6
x2
10ft
Social
Speach, See Text
Words of Deception
1d6
x2
10ft
Social
Speach, See Text
Words of Terror
1d6
x2
10ft
Social
Speach, Action, See Text
Actions of training
1d6
x2
10ft
Social
Action, See Text


Weapon Qualities
Range: Any attack at more than this distance is penalized for range. Beyond this range, the attack takes a cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment (or fraction thereof) of distance to the target. For example, a dagger (with a range of 10 feet) thrown at a target that is 25 feet away would incur a –4 penalty. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot to 10 range increments.
Special Weapon Features
Speach: Attacks with this weapon take a -4 penalty against creatures with an intelligence of 1, 2 or 3. Mindless creatures are immune to damage from this weapon. A speak with animals spell or similar effect will remove the penalty for attacks versus creatures of the animal type. Effects that allow you to talk with mindless or inanimate objects will remove the immunity, but they will only take half damage from this weapon. This weapon requires the ability to speak in order to be used. If you don’t share a language with the target of your attack you take a -4 penalty to hit. Any ability that allows you to communicate your thoughts non-verbally in detail such as a telepathy spell removes the requirement to speak and removes the penalty. If the weapon also have the Action Special feature you may choose to be affected by its drawbacks instead of the drawbacks of speech.

Action: Attacks with this weapon suffer a -4 penalty to attacks against Mindless creatures. If the weapon also have the Speech Special feature you may choose to be affected by its drawbacks instead of Action.

Weapon Descriptions
Words of Persuasion
You are proficient with words of Persuasion if diplomacy is a class skill. The skill used for your attack is diplomacy. This weapon has the speech weapon feature.

Words of Deception
You are proficient with words of Deception if bluff is a class skill. The skill used for your attack is bluff. This weapon has the speech weapon feature.

Words of terror
You are proficient with words of Terror if intimidate is a class skill. The skill used for your attack is intimidate. This is a fear effect. This weapon has the action and speech weapon features.

Actions of training
You are proficient with Actions of Training if handle animal is a class skill. The skill used for your attack is handle animal. You suffer a -4 on attack rolls against creatures with an intelligence greater then 2. This weapon has the action weapon feature.
Talking Big and Small
Your size does not affect the damage of your words so a small creature does the same damage as a large creature. However you can still talk bigger or smaller.

Talking Big
You may take a -2 penalty on your attack roll with a social weapon to increase the damage by 1 size category. Without special features you can only do this once.

Talking Small
You may take a -2 penalty on your attack roll with a social weapon to decrease the damage by 1 size category. In exchange for the decrease in damage you gain a +2 to conceal your words. Without special features you can only do this once.

Social Armor and Shields
Your Social Defense is equal to 10+Wisdom modifier+Clothing
Social Armor is called clothing. It adds a clothing bonus to your Social Defense.

Light Clothing

Clothing
Cost
Clothing bonus
Armor Bonus
Maximum Dex Bonus
Armor Check penalty
Arcane spell failure chance
Speed
Light Prison Clothes
-
0
0
+10
0
0%
-0ft
Loincloth
-
0
0
+10
0
0%
-0ft
Standard Light Armor
See text
1
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Simple
Light armor
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2
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Mediocre Light armor
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3
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Fancy Light Armor
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4
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Medium Clothing

Clothing
Cost
Clothing bonus
Armor Bonus
Maximum Dex Bonus
Armor Check penalty
Arcane spell failure chance
Speed
Standard Medium Armor
See text
2
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Simple
Medium armor
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4
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Mediocre Medium armor
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5
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Fancy Medium Armor
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6
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Heavy Clothing

Clothing
Cost
Clothing bonus
Armor Bonus
Maximum Dex Bonus
Armor Check penalty
Arcane spell failure chance
Speed
Heavy Prison Clothes
-
0
0
1
-6
35%
-10ft
Standard Heavy Armor
See text
3
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Simple
Heavy armor
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7
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Mediocre Heavy armor
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8
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Fancy Medium Heavy Armor
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9
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Armor Descriptions
Light Prison Clothes
Light prison clothes gives a +1 bonus to attack and damage with words of Fear, and gives a -1 penalty to attack and damage with words of persuasion. If the Light Prison Clothes is masterwork or has an enhancement to its clothing bonus you may add those bonuses to your attacks and damage with words of fear.


Loincloth
A Loincloth provides a +1 clothing bonus vs words of Fear. When making an attack with words of fear, or words of deception you can add +1. If the loincloth is masterwork or has an enhancement to its clothing bonus you may add those bonuses to your attacks and damage with words of fear or words of deception.

Standard Light Armor
This is any light armor that doesn’t have a clothing bonus. All other values are per the armor. For example a padded armor cost 5 gold.

Simple Light Armor
This armor is fairly simple in terms of adornment. Most of the values is as per the base armor. The gold cost is equal to the base armor +10. Any light armor can be selected as the base armor.

Mediocre Light Armor
This armor is mediocre in terms of adornment. Most of the values is as per the base armor. The gold cost is equal to the base armor +20. Any light armor can be selected as the base armor.


Fancy Light Armor
This is some of the fanciest armor you can get without sacrificing defense or mobility. Most of the values is as per the base armor. The gold cost is equal to the base armor +50. Any light armor can be selected as the base armor.Standard Light Armor
This is any light armor that doesn’t have a clothing bonus. All other values are per the armor. For example a padded armor cost 5 gold.

Standard Medium Armor
This is any medium armor that doesn’t have a clothing bonus. All other values are per the armor. For example a hide armor cost 15 gold.

Simple Medium Armor
This armor is fairly simple in terms of adornment. Most of the values is as per the base armor. The gold cost is equal to the base armor +15. Any medium armor can be selected as the base armor.

Mediocre Medium Armor
This armor is mediocre in terms of adornment. Most of the values is as per the base armor. The gold cost is equal to the base armor +50. Any Medium armor can be selected as the base armor.


Fancy Medium Armor
This is some of the fanciest armor you can get without sacrificing defense or mobility. Most of the values is as per the base armor. The gold cost is equal to the base armor +150. Any Medium armor can be selected as the base armor.

Traits
Social traits
Slave Master
You gain a +1 trait bonus on handle animal checks. You do not suffer a penalty for making an attack with Actions of training against a creature with an intelligence greater then 2. Handle animal is always a class skill for you.




Feats
Backed by Action(Combat)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with a social weapon

Benefit: A number of times per turn equal to your charisma modifier, if you could make a melee or ranged attack against a target you may make an attack roll with a social weapon as a free action. The attack with the social weapon is made with a -2 penalty, and on a hit the damage that the social weapon does is instead added to the damage of your next attack. Only the damage of a single social weapon can be applied to any individual melee or ranged attack.

Follow Through(Combat)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with Words of Terror.
Benefit: Once per round, on a round in which you have successfully attacked a target with Words of Terror and have done damage that is not social damage. You may make an attack with Words of Terror as a free action that does not have to be taken on your turn.

Double Meaning(Combat)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with two different social weapons.

Benefit: A number of times per turn equal to your charisma modifier, when you make an attack with a social weapon you may make an additional attack with a seperate social weapon at a -2 penalty as a free action. You can not use this on attacks with a social weapon made as a free action.

Careful Word Choice(Combat)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with a social weapon

Benefit: Your attacks with social weapons do not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Verbal Juggernaut(Combat)
Prerequisites:Proficiency with a social weapon

Benefit: When Talking big you may increase the damage size by one category and attack penalty by 2. You may add an additional damage size and an additional 2 attack penalty for every 4 ranks you possess in the attack skill of the social weapon you are using. You may reduce the attack penalty by 2*your charisma modifier to a minimum of -0. So for example if an individual has 10 ranks in bluff, and a charisma score of 18, then that individual would be able to increase their damage with words of deception by 1 size due to using Talking big, 1 size by default with this feat, and 2 size for his ranks in bluff. That totals to 4 size increases, at a -8 penalty. An 18 in charisma is a 4 modifier, reducing the penalty by 8. Meaning their attack is 4 sizes bigger with a -0 penalty.

Mindless Babble
Prerequisites:Proficiency with a social weapon
Benefit: When using a social weapon with the speech special weapon feature you do not suffer the normal penalty for attacks against creatures with an intelligence of 3 or less. Also your attack with a speech social weapon does half damage against mindless targets. In addition when making an attack against a mindless target with a social weapon with the action special weapon quality you don’t suffer the normal penalty.

Improved Mindless Babble
Prerequisites:Proficiency with a social weapon,Mindless Babble. 5 ranks in bluff, diplomacy or intimidate.
Benefit: Your attacks with a speech social weapon does full damage against mindless targets.

Nut Cracker
Prerequisites:Proficiency with Words of Persuasion.
Benefit: When you make an attack with words of persuasion before you roll your attack, you may choose to take a -2 on the attack and damage roll. In exchange when you do damage to the target they must make a will save against a dc equal to 10+½ your rank in diplomacy+your charisma modifier. If the target fails their will save then they suffer the open minded condition for 1d4+your charisma modifier rounds. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Mind Cracker
Prerequisites:Proficiency with Words of Persuasion, Nut Cracker, Mindless Babble. 5 ranks in bluff, diplomacy or intimidate, Improved Mindless Babble.

Benefit: The effect of Nut Cracker bypasses immunity to mind-affecting effects. In addition when a target with immunity to mind-affecting effects is affected by Nut Cracker for the duration of the open minded condition their immunity to mind-affecting effects is suppressed.

Address the Crowd
Prerequisites: Proficiency with a social weapon

Benefit: When you make an attack with a social weapon you may target multiple creatures. When doing so you first select the range at which you want to attack, and roll your attack with any range increment penalties doubled and a -2 penalty. When you roll damage apply your range increment penalty to the damage as well. Doing this enables your attack to target everyone within the selected range. You may choose to exclude yourself and a number of targets equal to your charisma modifier.
Conditions
Talked Down
This condition lasts for as long as the creature has life equal to or less than the sum of their non-lethal damage and social damage, unless it is ended prematurely. During the length of the condition the creature is unable to take aggressive actions. The creature can be given a command from the individuals who inflicted the talked down condition upon them. The command must be from the list below unless the GM approves of the command. Doing so inflicts an effect and reduces their social damage to the lesser of ½ of its current value and the point that the creature no longer has the talked down condition.
Reformation
The creatures heads back home or to a temporary residence if they are unable to go home.
The affected creature temporarily changes alignment by 1 stage in the direction the commander wishes. The alignment change lasts for 1d4 days. The change can be extended by 1d4 days if the affected creature is given oversight for 4 hours during the 1d4 day period. After extending the duration 4 times the change becomes permanent.

Immediate Combat Assistance
The creature temporarily becomes an ally aiding in combat for up to 1d4 hours. After which the creature heads back home or to a temporary residence.

Scheduled Combat Assistance
The creature heads back home or to a temporary residence. However prior to that you indicate a target and a time, at which point they will attack the target. They will continue to battle the target until the target is defeated and then they will head back home.

Robbery
The creature will drop any possessions it is caring unless the commander desires the creature to keep some of their possessions. Afterwards they will head back home or to a temporary residence.

Extortion
The creature will head home or to a temporary residence. They will pay a weekly payment to the commander equal to 1/8th the possessions they were carrying at the time this effect initiates. They will continue to pay this amount for 1d4 weeks. If you spend 4 hours with the individual keeping them inline during the 1d4 weeks you may extend it by 1d4 weeks. This can be done any number of times.

Mission
The target is affected as per geass/quest. The effect wears off after 1d4 days unless the commander spends at least 4 hours with the target during the period. If the commander spends those 4 hours with the target the duration is extended by 1d4 days. This can be extended until the mission is completed.

Interrogation
For 1d4 hours you may ask the target questions and they will answer honestly. Some feats may enable the target some ability to lie. If the target has deceitful they may select 1 fact to lie about. If they do so they roll a bluff check, and the interrogator may roll a sense motive check. If the interrogator succeeds on their sense motive then the interrogator knows that part of the story doesn’t add up, but not which part. If the interrogator succeeds by more then 5 they know what fact was a lie, but not the truth behind it. If the interrogator succeeds by more then 10 they know what fact was a lie, and the truth. If the interrogator fails by more then 10 the interrogator not only believes the lie to be true but will take all the information in the most positive light possible.

Negotiation
The commander may sell or buy up to 1d8 items from the target at a special price. The special price is at 150% of its base price when selling or 50% of the base price when buying. The sales or purchases do not have to be immedite, however after 1d4 hours you may be limited in the types of things that you can buy or sell due to prefrence.

Suicide
The target will attempt to take their own life for 1d4 rounds. The target can attempt a coup de grace on themselves as if they are helpless.
Open Minded
A Open Minded creature suffers a -2 penalty to will saves and a -2 penalty to social defense.

[Blackhawk748]

I can't follow your syntax here.

As for the suggestions, I wasn't sure if Pathfinder's social rules were what you were looking for.



Ultimate Intrigue is from 2016, so five years and change. I wouldn't call it obscure, since it was eagerly anticipated within the Pathfinder community.

Sorry, reading through Social Challenge rules from the link posted up thread.

[Particle_Man]

Oddly enough given its theme, I would look at Iron Heroes (a d20 game). It uses feat chains and token systems to get more out of bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, etc. There is also a Thief class in the game that is very good at this sort of thing.