Hex rules clarification

[Wabbit]

So I am playing in a game on this board and something came up that has caused a little conflict. The DM believes that Hexes are both attack actions and Spells. Now while they do not have a SU next to the ability they are not SP either so I always counted them as supernatural abilities but either way.

Does a Hex that imposes a save count as an attack on a creature. Specific situation arose where my witch was in a time stop and used a hex on a foe. The DM ruled that since time stop prevents attacks and spells that hexes would not work.

Would like some clarification because I could not find anywhere that counts Hexes as a spell or as an attack.

TL;DR can hexes be used in a time stop.

[Blackhawk748]

Not sure on RAW here, but my gut says no, you can't.

While it's not called out specifically, it is a (presumably) SU Ability that takes a standard action (unless stared otherwise) and if it's causes a Debuff or Damage, I'd call that an attack.

Maybe someone with better PF rules mastery can say otherwise but that's my instinct on it

[Wabbit]

If it makes it any more clear. I was using the Restless Slumber Major Hex. It requires a saving throw, but damage is not done till the next turn.

[Eldonauran]

Seems like this issue is stemming from an overly legalistic reading of the rules. Time Stop explicitly calls out that targets are immune to your attacks or spells during its duration. Time Stop doesn't actually stop time, it just greatly accelerates you and what you do. Any EFFECT that you generate (unless it has a duration longer than Time Stop) will have absolutely no effect because it is over just as soon as it starts. It has nothing to latch onto because it is resolving so quickly. Ones that effect you still effect you.

So, are hexes attacks or spells? Define attacks. Is it specifically defined in Pathfinder or is this a general use of the word in the English language. If it is: "an aggressive and violent action against a person or place" then, yes, many things that Hexes do can be considered attacks. In Pathfinder, you can take the Attack action, but that is an type of attack. You don't need to roll a dice to attack someone.


Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch's level + the witch's Intelligence modifier. That vast majority of Witch Hexes are supernatural effects. The ones that are not are explicitly called out as Spell-like, Extraordinary, or do not have a tag. Of those without a tag are: Animal Skin, Cursed Wounds, Delicious Fright, and Swamp Grasp. All four of them are from Blood of the Moon and are likely mislabeled due to an oversight by the author and editor. Excepting Animal Skin, they should all be listed as Supernatural effect and Animal Skin should be Spell-like (as it mimics a spell almost exactly).

tl;dr: Witch Hexes should be treated as "attacks and spells" as far as Time Stop is concerned. The spell was written long before Hexes were a thing.

[Wabbit]

Seems like this issue is stemming from an overly legalistic reading of the rules. Time Stop explicitly calls out that targets are immune to your attacks or spells during its duration. Time Stop doesn't actually stop time, it just greatly accelerates you and what you do. Any EFFECT that you generate (unless it has a duration longer than Time Stop) will have absolutely no effect because it is over just as soon as it starts. It has nothing to latch onto because it is resolving so quickly. Ones that effect you still effect you.

So, are hexes attacks or spells? Define attacks. Is it specifically defined in Pathfinder or is this a general use of the word in the English language. If it is: "an aggressive and violent action against a person or place" then, yes, many things that Hexes do can be considered attacks. In Pathfinder, you can take the Attack action, but that is an type of attack. You don't need to roll a dice to attack someone.

That vast majority of Witch Hexes are supernatural effects. The ones that are not are explicitly called out as Spell-like, Extraordinary, or do not have a tag. Of those without a tag are: Animal Skin, Cursed Wounds, Delicious Fright, and Swamp Grasp. All four of them are from Blood of the Moon and are likely mislabeled due to an oversight by the author and editor. Excepting Animal Skin, they should all be listed as Supernatural effect and Animal Skin should be Spell-like (as it mimics a spell almost exactly).

tl;dr: Witch Hexes should be treated as "attacks and spells" as far as Time Stop is concerned. The spell was written long before Hexes were a thing.
If its the duration that stops the effect than hexes like Slumber and Restless Slumber which have infinite duration wouldn't be "Over to fast"
And is this then only for Time Stop or do things like Spell Turning also reflect hexes not listed as spell-like?
Would a witch then need to roll will saves to use a hex in the area of a sanctuary spell even though the spell does not call out Supernatural abilities as effected.

Its a fair reading but Supernatural abilities were around when Time Stop was written, so why wasn't it called out there. Its not like they didn't know SU abilities exist on character classes so I would have to assume that they knew about Supernatural abilities when they brought the spell into PF so its absence has to be intentional. Also if a spell effect last beyond Time Stop its considered to still be in effect during Time Stop so does that spell such as Black Tentacle not count as a spell or attack during time stop?

I can cast Black Tentacles within Time Stop no worries because its duration is rounds/level but not a hex which is rounds/infinity. Even though Black Tentacles is actually an attack and actually a spell its allowed to work because its duration lets it

[Eldonauran]

If its the duration that stops the effect than hexes like Slumber and Restless Slumber which have infinite duration wouldn't be "Over to fast"
And is this then only for Time Stop or do things like Spell Turning also reflect hexes not listed as spell-like?
Would a witch then need to roll will saves to use a hex in the area of a sanctuary spell even though the spell does not call out Supernatural abilities as effected.We are only talking about Time Stop and no other spell. If you want to talk about Spell Turning, you just need to read the first line of the spell: "Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster." Yes, Witch Hexes that are spell-like get turned back on you. Spells inherently break the rules of the game. Trying to bring a new spell into the argument when it doesnt even support your example only muddies the water.


Its a fair reading but Supernatural abilities were around when Time Stop was written, so why wasn't it called out there. Its not like they didn't know SU abilities exist on character classes so I would have to assume that they knew about Supernatural abilities when they brought the spell into PF so its absence has to be intentional. Also if a spell effect last beyond Time Stop its considered to still be in effect during Time Stop so does that spell such as Black Tentacle not count as a spell or attack during time stop?

I can cast Black Tentacles within Time Stop no worries because its duration is rounds/level but not a hex which is rounds/infinity. Even though Black Tentacles is actually an attack and actually a spell its allowed to work because its duration lets itDo you have any examples of other Supernatural abilities that are framed as attacks against a specific target? Because we can discuss those if it helps. Black Tentacles does not have targets. It has an area and a duration. It cannot effect anything (except you) during the duration of Time Stop but as soon as that is over, it can and does.

Also, Hexes either have a duration or they do not. Whether or not they are measured in rounds, hours, days, permanent, etc does not matter. If they have a TARGET, they do not work within Time Stop. If you do anything that requires an attack roll or a saving throw, they can be considered attacks by the definition of such in the English language and your GM is well within their rights to say no.

[Wabbit]

-snip-
Ok so its now duration and targeting that are the issue. Interesting it also extremely nerfs the witch class because what does and does not work with a hex is up to gm fiat in the moment.

[Eldonauran]

Ok so its now duration and targeting that are the issue. Interesting it also extremely nerfs the witch class because what does and does not work with a hex is up to gm fiat in the moment."It's now duration and targeting"? Are you serious? It has always been the issue. It says so right in the spell description:


... While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends... I shouldn't have to ask but... did you really read the spell?

And, it really nerfs the witch? Seriously? A high level spell that you get to cast maybe the last three levels of your career, that explicitly says most users use it to defensively buff themselves, NERFS the entire class? This doesn't even touch on the subject that only a select few witches ever get access to it through a patron spell.

I am sorry. I can't take you seriously if you actually mean that.

[Wabbit]

"It's now duration and targeting"? Are you serious? It has always been the issue. It says so right in the spell description:

I shouldn't have to ask but... did you really read the spell?

And, it really nerfs the witch? Seriously? A high level spell that you get to cast maybe the last three levels of your career, that explicitly says most users use it to defensively buff themselves, NERFS the entire class?

I am sorry. I can't take you seriously if you actually mean that.
If you remove the functionality of the Hex class feature which is the only feature the witch has besides its spell casting and familiar. Have you increased or decreased the classes abilities?
And no the issue is that Hexes are not classified as spells or attacks by their definition. You are saying anything at all that effects someone beyond yourself is an attack but thats not what attacks mean in the game as you have various actions you can take that effect others but not count them as attacks. Such as mental actions and such.

Supernatural abilities were not listed in the spell Time Stop it specifically calls out attacks (swinging a stick at the guy) or spells (casting something like fireball) a supernatural abilities is neither of those things that is why Su is different than Ex and Sp. And yes its a nerf to now have to consider what spells do and do not work with Hexes if using Slumber on someone within Sanctuary doesn't work because its not treated as an "Attack" then that does reduce their functionality. If an effect blocks a ranged "Attack" then couldn't it be argued that a witch using slumber (within 30 ft so thats ranged) could have the effect blocked by that effect even though its meant for something like catching arrows or some ****.

I get Time Stop was written long before Hexes were a thing, but retroactively making multiple spells effectively shut down an entire class feature seems kinda weird. It would be like saying various spells now suddenly make a Monk unable to use Ki pool within their area of effect for no reason even though its not in the writing.

[Blackhawk748]

I mean, if it's an SU then Antimagic Field prevents a monk from using their Ki Pool. And it's because the term Attack ain't actually defined, at least the version Time Stop uses. Basically, Time Stop would be more accurate if it said "Spells or abilities that target another creature" don't work.

[Eldonauran]

And no the issue is that Hexes are not classified as spells or attacks by their definition. You are saying anything at all that effects someone beyond yourself is an attack but thats not what attacks mean in the game as you have various actions you can take that effect others but not count them as attacks. Such as mental actions and such. ...it specifically calls out attacks (swinging a stick at the guy)...I gave the explicit definition of the English word 'attack'. If you want to invent your own definition for the word 'attack', you are free to do so but I am not going to play games with moving the goal post. The word 'attack' is not defined in Pathfinder because it uses existing language to do that, and is one of the reasons why there is an arbiter in the form of the GM.


I get Time Stop was written long before Hexes were a thing, but retroactively making multiple spells effectively shut down an entire class feature seems kinda weird. It would be like saying various spells now suddenly make a Monk unable to use Ki pool within their area of effect for no reason even though its not in the writing.I am sorry that the spell doesn't allow you to do the things you want to do. Perhaps you should work with the GM to research a spell that does what you want. As it stands, you are out of luck and the GM is right.

[tyckspoon]

And no the issue is that Hexes are not classified as spells or attacks by their definition. You are saying anything at all that effects someone beyond yourself is an attack but thats not what attacks mean in the game as you have various actions you can take that effect others but not count them as attacks. Such as mental actions and such.


That's not a Hex-specific thing. The game has never been great about distinguishing what it means when it says 'attack' - it inherited this from 3.x. -Most of the time- when it says 'attack', it means 'rolling your attack bonus against the target's Armor Class.' But -sometimes- it means something more like 'any action with intent to cause an undesired result on the target', and designers often do not specify clearly when they mean to use that more general situation. The text in Invisibility is probably the best guidance toward intent on that -


The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe...

..basically if it would affect an enemy, it's an 'attack' for purposes of effects that care about whether or not you are 'attacking'.

[Wabbit]

I mean, if it's an SU then Antimagic Field prevents a monk from using their Ki Pool. And it's because the term Attack ain't actually defined, at least the version Time Stop uses. Basically, Time Stop would be more accurate if it said "Spells or abilities that target another creature" don't work.

See that is more clear writing. Or "Any ability or effect that targets..." would be more general and encompassing. But Attacks and spells that target is incredibly limited and we have to RAI to try and argue that its only for self-buffs.

[Eldonauran]

See that is more clear writing. Or "Any ability or effect that targets..." would be more general and encompassing. But Attacks and spells that target is incredibly limited and we have to RAI to try and argue that its only for self-buffs.There is no RAI needed on this issue. It is (again) right there in the spell description:


...Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

[Wabbit]

There is no RAI needed on this issue. It is (again) right there in the spell description:

That is called a suggestion and does indeed qualify as "Intention" which is what the I is for in RAI.

[Blackhawk748]

See that is more clear writing. Or "Any ability or effect that targets..." would be more general and encompassing. But Attacks and spells that target is incredibly limited and we have to RAI to try and argue that its only for self-buffs.

That's cuz it's technically not, because you can also cast Summons and Evards Black Tentacles, which creates an effect that comes.into existence and doesn't target a creature. Once it pops up, then it attacks, but it's got nothing to do with you.

It is poorly worded and Attack needs to have a specific and general clause.

[Eldonauran]

That's cuz it's technically not, because you can also cast Summons and Evards Black Tentacles, which creates an effect that comes.into existence and doesn't target a creature. Once it pops up, then it attacks, but it's got nothing to do with you. Like yourself, any spell you cast that might 'attack' something is moving at the same rate as yourself and cannot target another creature. Black Tentacles might try to swing and grab an enemy but it would have no effect until after Time Stop wears off.


It is poorly worded and Attack needs to have a specific and general clause. I fail to see how the English definition is inadequate for this statement. Is it that the definition is too general and prevents you from doing exactly what you want?

[Wabbit]

That's cuz it's technically not, because you can also cast Summons and Evards Black Tentacles, which creates an effect that comes.into existence and doesn't target a creature. Once it pops up, then it attacks, but it's got nothing to do with you.

It is poorly worded and Attack needs to have a specific and general clause.

Which is more weird for me because something like a summon or a black tentacle does attack during your rounds in time stop... its the same thing with extra steps. There is no fundamental difference in me casting Black Tentacles while in time stop and it inflicting damage during those 1d4+1 rounds and me smacking a fool with a stick during those 1d4+1. Its still directly effecting the opponent with additional steps.

[Wabbit]

Like yourself, any spell you cast that might 'attack' something is moving at the same rate as yourself and cannot target another creature. Black Tentacles might try to swing and grab an enemy but it would have no effect until after Time Stop wears off.

I fail to see how the English definition is inadequate for this statement. Is it that the definition is too general and prevents you from doing exactly what you want?

Following the english definition yelling at your opponent is also not allowed in Time Stop. As in fundamentally could not happen within the confines of the spell because it would be an "Attack" targeted at your opponent.

[Eldonauran]

Which is more weird for me because something like a summon or a black tentacle does attack during your rounds in time stop... its the same thing with extra steps. There is no fundamental difference in me casting Black Tentacles while in time stop and it inflicting damage during those 1d4+1 rounds and me smacking a fool with a stick during those 1d4+1. Its still directly effecting the opponent with additional steps.I am continually confused by your conclusions here. The spell addresses this issue directly:


While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.Why is it so hard to understand that you CANNOT EFFECT ANYTHING ELSE while in Time Stop?


Following the english definition yelling at your opponent is also not allowed in Time Stop. As in fundamentally could not happen within the confines of the spell because it would be an "Attack" targeted at your opponent. That is silly. Unless you actually believe yelling and saying mean words constitutes an attack that causes harm to another.

[Blackhawk748]

Like yourself, any spell you cast that might 'attack' something is moving at the same rate as yourself and cannot target another creature. Black Tentacles might try to swing and grab an enemy but it would have no effect until after Time Stop wears off.

I fail to see how the English definition is inadequate for this statement. Is it that the definition is too general and prevents you from doing exactly what you want?

See, there's the difference. I'd have no problem with Black Tentacles attacking, as YOU aren't attacking, the tentacles are. Same way as of you summoned a creature in to attack for you.

And it is because it's incredibly broad and includes yelling mean things at the opponent. Also they flip flop between it meaning the general term and the "Make an attack roll" definition and thats just annoying

[Eldonauran]

See, there's the difference. I'd have no problem with Black Tentacles attacking, as YOU aren't attacking, the tentacles are. Same way as of you summoned a creature in to attack for you.Except they can't. The spells says others are invulnerable to your spells and attacks during its duration. They are still YOUR spell as are the results of any summoning or called spell. You, and everything you do within the effects of Time Stop, are moving at an incredible pace that resumes normal time after the duration. You, and what you do, cannot interact with the world while this is going on.

[Wabbit]

Except they can't. The spells says others are invulnerable to your spells and attacks during its duration. They are still YOUR spell as are the results of any summoning or called spell. You, and everything you do within the effects of Time Stop, are moving at an incredible pace that resumes normal time after the duration. You, and what you do, cannot interact with the world while this is going on.

Except that a summon is not me. Its its own entity. If I summon a Ghaele and tell it to attack my enemies but I do not target any one enemy and it randomly selects and enemy how is it different from an area affect spell? And its not me so its attacks are not restricted by Time Stop unless it too casts Time Stop.

[Eldonauran]

Except that a summon is not me. Its its own entity. If I summon a Ghaele and tell it to attack my enemies but I do not target any one enemy and it randomly selects and enemy how is it different from an area affect spell? And its not me so its attacks are not restricted by Time Stop unless it too casts Time Stop.Do we really have to play the semantics game and nitpick over every single detail to completely demolish your resistance to the idea that the spell does not do what you want it to do?

No? Yes? Ok, tell me. Who's magic is sustaining the spell that is allowing the summoned creature to exist in the world at the moment? The magic fueling the duration of the black tentacles? Why does another caster have to succeed against YOUR caster level when attempting to dispel the magic you created? The source of the magic is coming from YOU. They are YOUR spells. That is why when another spellcaster attempts to take control of your spells (through one way or another), they have to roll against you. If your summoned creatures demolish a town, who gets blamed? DO you get experience for the kills your spells make or does the magic?

Use a bit of logic when you approach these things, not just the specific instance of a circumstance that might work in your favor if you interpret the rules a specific way in order to bring about the results you want. You are confined by the rules of the spell you cast. You are moving too fast to hurt anything outside of the spell effects. Your magic is moving (and resolving) too fast to harm anything outside of the spell effects. Your summoned creatures are moving too fast to harm those outside the spell effects. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

Do you want the Uber Lich BBEG to cast Time Stop and end the campaign before the end of your first round of combat? Is that what you want?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm the DM in question, just found this thread. Posting from mobile Finally at a desktop: check the magic overview.
Magic Overview(attacks) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Magic/#Attacks):
Attacks

Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone. (Emphasis added)

Would you really argue that the hex isn't an offensive combat action? You're doing it in combat, and it's something they don't want affecting them. Magic Overview applies to the things as mentioned in Time Stop, so this definition of "attack" absolutely applies. And you can't do that.

Although this does pose an interesting feature: If you have non-spell buffs to apply (including not being spell-like abilities, as those function just like spells), then you can apply those to allies during a time stop. Aren't many of those, but hey, if you're a multiclass bard or something....