King of Nowhere
2022-03-29, 07:52 AM
Requesting some clarification on initiate of the sevenfold veil (complete arcane) and its prismatic veils.
the indigo veil prevents passage of all spells. but what does "passage" mean, exactly?
reading through the descriptions, we noticed that fireball creates a sphere that you throw and explodes, while firestorm makes flames appear on the spot. so we thought, maybe firestorm is not blocked by the indigo veil.
then we started the fight and spells were zipping around, and it was very difficult to figure out what passed and what didn't pass from the descriptions. So I assume, by "passage" it just means that if you are on the outside, you can't target someone on the inside? (well, you can, but the spell autofails)
But I did support that (probably incorrect) rule interpretation as a form of nerf, because - unless we fundamentally misunderstand how immediate actions work, which is basically my second question - the class is ridiculously overpowered. I gave it to an npc, and after the first round of fighting where this dude completely negated the actions of, like, three pcs, I was all like "huh, sorry guys, this build turned out a lot more powerful than I imagined".
The low levels are ok. But at 4th level you get the reactive warding, you can raise your veil as an immediate action. which, the way we understand things (the srd is not clear) means that the game is stopped, you take your action, then the game resumes. Sort of like an instant effect on magic the gathering. and this, coupled with the last two veils, makes for an extremely broken ability to nullify literally everything anyone can do.
Somebody is casting a spell against you and your party? raise the shield, the spell will be blocked by the indigo veil. Someone is attacking you ranged, the violet veil destroys the prjectiles. Somebody is charging you, well, they could pass, but they have to pass two will saves against insanity and planeshift respectively; good luck for a warrior to pass two will saves in a row, and it's stuff that's hard to have immunity to. Spells, attacks, rays, breath weapons, you name it, the initiate can react to them and block them.
Yes,the wall can be dispelled afterwards, but you spent one action and they spent one spell that got completely negated, and now they have to spend another spell to take down the wall. which you can raise again the next turn. the only exception is disjunction, that's blocked but collapses the veil, in which case it's an action for an action. So, there is one. single. spell. in the whole game that will reciprocally negate with the warding. for everything else, your immediate action costs your opponent at least two actions. It's an automatic advantage in action economy.
and you can cast from inside to outside with no penalty (at least, that's how we read the whole "concealment from those outside, but they do not get concealmente against you"; maybe i misinterpreted that?). at least with the prismatic wall spell you are subjected to it, if you move behind for safety you can't strike at your enemies either.
and finally, this whole class gives several other nifty benefits, including better dispelling and stronger defences against dispelling - something supremely useful if your campaign entails multiple caster fights - and it doesn't cost a thing. You don't lose any spell level for taking this class.
Can it really be that powerful? or perhaps it's a lot weaker, and we are misunderstanding how it works?
i think it could be strong, but not broken, if the reactive warding ability was removed; then your veils are strong, but you have to use your round to raise them, you can't just cast your normal spell(s) and sacrifice your next round's quickened action to veil against the specific attack the enemy is using. I do like the class because i like playing defensive, support builds, and i will suggest this nerf if I will get a chance to play this as a player; do you think it would be a suitable nerf?
the indigo veil prevents passage of all spells. but what does "passage" mean, exactly?
reading through the descriptions, we noticed that fireball creates a sphere that you throw and explodes, while firestorm makes flames appear on the spot. so we thought, maybe firestorm is not blocked by the indigo veil.
then we started the fight and spells were zipping around, and it was very difficult to figure out what passed and what didn't pass from the descriptions. So I assume, by "passage" it just means that if you are on the outside, you can't target someone on the inside? (well, you can, but the spell autofails)
But I did support that (probably incorrect) rule interpretation as a form of nerf, because - unless we fundamentally misunderstand how immediate actions work, which is basically my second question - the class is ridiculously overpowered. I gave it to an npc, and after the first round of fighting where this dude completely negated the actions of, like, three pcs, I was all like "huh, sorry guys, this build turned out a lot more powerful than I imagined".
The low levels are ok. But at 4th level you get the reactive warding, you can raise your veil as an immediate action. which, the way we understand things (the srd is not clear) means that the game is stopped, you take your action, then the game resumes. Sort of like an instant effect on magic the gathering. and this, coupled with the last two veils, makes for an extremely broken ability to nullify literally everything anyone can do.
Somebody is casting a spell against you and your party? raise the shield, the spell will be blocked by the indigo veil. Someone is attacking you ranged, the violet veil destroys the prjectiles. Somebody is charging you, well, they could pass, but they have to pass two will saves against insanity and planeshift respectively; good luck for a warrior to pass two will saves in a row, and it's stuff that's hard to have immunity to. Spells, attacks, rays, breath weapons, you name it, the initiate can react to them and block them.
Yes,the wall can be dispelled afterwards, but you spent one action and they spent one spell that got completely negated, and now they have to spend another spell to take down the wall. which you can raise again the next turn. the only exception is disjunction, that's blocked but collapses the veil, in which case it's an action for an action. So, there is one. single. spell. in the whole game that will reciprocally negate with the warding. for everything else, your immediate action costs your opponent at least two actions. It's an automatic advantage in action economy.
and you can cast from inside to outside with no penalty (at least, that's how we read the whole "concealment from those outside, but they do not get concealmente against you"; maybe i misinterpreted that?). at least with the prismatic wall spell you are subjected to it, if you move behind for safety you can't strike at your enemies either.
and finally, this whole class gives several other nifty benefits, including better dispelling and stronger defences against dispelling - something supremely useful if your campaign entails multiple caster fights - and it doesn't cost a thing. You don't lose any spell level for taking this class.
Can it really be that powerful? or perhaps it's a lot weaker, and we are misunderstanding how it works?
i think it could be strong, but not broken, if the reactive warding ability was removed; then your veils are strong, but you have to use your round to raise them, you can't just cast your normal spell(s) and sacrifice your next round's quickened action to veil against the specific attack the enemy is using. I do like the class because i like playing defensive, support builds, and i will suggest this nerf if I will get a chance to play this as a player; do you think it would be a suitable nerf?