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Kiirseva
2007-11-24, 04:17 PM
I'm about to join a game using the Armor as Damage Reduction variant (Unearth Arcana, p.111). Anyone have any experience with it, good or bad?

I will be an Elven Ftr 2 (18 Dex, Mw. Chain Shirt. Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise for feats. Fighting mostly with a bastard sword.) and am wondering what to expect in combat if I'm attempting to be the front line for two Clerics (Pelor/Kord), a Rogue and a Bard.

Matthew
2007-11-24, 05:40 PM
Huh, Forum ate my post. Anyway, at low levels it means you get hit more, but take less damage. At high levels the damage output means getting hit more becomes more of an issue. Best to use the Class Defence variant rule in combination with this, in my opinion.

Kiirseva
2007-11-24, 05:42 PM
Where can I find that variant?

Matthew
2007-11-24, 05:44 PM
Same place as Damage Reduction for Armour. Both are contained in the SRD and are drawn from the 3e Unearthed Arcana (as far as I am aware).

Class Defence Bonus Variant Rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm)
Armour as Damage Reduction Variant Rule ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-11-24, 06:18 PM
Same place as Damage Reduction for Armour. Both are contained in the SRD and are drawn from the 3e Unearthed Arcana (as far as I am aware).
Uh, a bit nitpicky but...

Neither are contained in the SRD. Though they are available alongside the SRD on several popular sites that host hyperlinked versions of said SRD.

John Campbell
2007-11-24, 06:25 PM
I played in a Game of Thrones d20 game for a while. Game of Thrones uses both the Armor as DR and the Class Defense Bonus variants, and also makes shields provide a much better AC bonus (heavy shields are +6 AC, IIRC).

I really like the system; it works, and it's a whole lot more realistic than vanilla D&D. You really want to be wearing the heaviest armor you can get your hands on, and two-handed weapon vs. sword and shield is a real offense vs. defense trade-off. Two-weapon sucks - you still get the lousy defense, but now you have two attacks that won't penetrate your opponent's armor! - but, hey, that's realistic, too.

Game of Thrones is a very low-magic setting, though. It's important to keep in mind that in a D&D setting, it's going to greatly weaken physical combat types against anyone whose damage or other effects ignore DR.

Matthew
2007-11-24, 06:31 PM
Uh, a bit nitpicky but...

Neither are contained in the SRD. Though they are available alongside the SRD on several popular sites that host hyperlinked versions of said SRD.
Yeah, yeah. You caught that nit. :smallwink: The site I was thinking of claims to be the Hyperlinked D20 SRD, which clouded my thinking. What are they, again? Open Game Content?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-11-24, 06:42 PM
Yeah, yeah. You caught that nit. :smallwink: The site I was thinking of claims to be the Hyperlinked D20 SRD, which clouded my thinking. What are they, again? Open Game Content?
Yeah. Unearthed Arcana was released almost entirely as Open Game Content. Various items that use the names of D&D-specific creatures such as mind flayers and yuan-ti were withheld from OGC.

I'll have double check whether the sidebar material that I have yet to see republished anywheere was likewise withheld or not.

Beyond those two, I think pretty much the whole book is Open.

John Campbell
2007-11-24, 07:38 PM
On closer reading of the Unearthed Arcana rules, I note that Game of Thrones actually goes a step farther... in GoT, armor provides no AC bonus, but provides roughly twice as much DR as in the UA rules.

I don't think this really changes anything I said before, but it'll moderate all the effects. Particularly since UA doesn't do anything to make shields less worthless.

Sleet
2007-11-24, 07:40 PM
I played in a Game of Thrones d20 game for a while.

Count this as a second hearty recommendation of that AC-as-DR system. I ran a yearlong campaign using it, and it worked amazingly well - we got some really exciting, cinematic battles out of it, from the lengthy battle between the noble/knight PC and a young Sandor Clegane, to the one-roll-one-kill of an ironborn captain at the hands of a PC maester/man-at-arms four levels lower in a duel. It was fantastic.

Sleet
2007-11-24, 07:44 PM
in GoT, armor provides no AC bonus,

I love the way shields work. It's the attacker's choice whether they provide AC or DR - do you swing through the shield, or around it?

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-24, 08:34 PM
My experience with armor as DR is that it makes melee-types more powerful at low level, but less powerful at high level. By the time you reach high levels, the DR is not particularly significant, and it your AC is reduced further.

The variant also favors power attackers somewhat (if I remember the math right), because you don't get twice as much DR as you lose AC.

That being said, I like the system, but only use it if I am nerfing spellcasters significantly.

Armor as Dr would likely make ToB character stronger, since they really need to hit with their attacks, and armor as DR makes that more likely.


Particularly since UA doesn't do anything to make shields less worthless.

Shields aren't worthless. They provide from 1-9 AC. The problem is that there is no reason not to PA while two-handing a weapon, and using an animated shield. Which is not the traditional sword & board archetype.

Fawsto
2007-11-24, 08:37 PM
Houserule for ya:

Armor still keeps full armor class bonus, but has a DR based on it's size cathegory:

Meaning, fullplate is heavy, right? So Damage Reduction 3/- for her.
A light armor would have DR 1/-, and a medium DR 2/-.

Masterwork armor gives you a +1/- damage reduction bonus.

Now, and about Natural armor? Get the number, 4 example, 8 (for nat armor) and divide by 2, them reduce 1, you will have DR 3/-. Ok?

And Nat Armor 10? You them get DR 4/-.

Ok, and when the enemy has Nat armor and DR? Well they are both due to the effectiveness of the protecting hide or due to high regeneration speed, right? So my Houserule says: DR won't stack with Nat Armor DR. Apply the Higher or the one that has a especific overcomer (like Dragons DR 20/magic), being the second the best choice. Btw, DR from Armor and DR from Natural Armor will Stack.

More Houserules:

Dire Weapons: You can apply this template to any medium or large weapon and ammunition. If you apply this template to a weapon to which you can aplly weapon finesse, you won't be able to use finesse with it. This template is not magic and do stack with magic and acts normaly with masterwork pieces. Dire weapons are made for one solely porpouse: Overcome DR. These weapons are built with spikes and larger tips or more potent edges, turning them to perfect armor piercing devices. Dire weapons reduces 3 or 4 DR bonuses by their size, medium weapons reduces 3 DR bonus and Large weapons overcome 4 DR bonuses. Also, for bigger weapons, increase the overcome bonus by one for each cathegory beyond large. Dire ammo neglects 3 points of DR + 1 per size increment. Dire weapons cost 50 extra gold Pieces for medium and 100 extra GP for large weapons and they increase the cost of bigger weapons by 25%. Dire ammo cost 50% more. Dire weapons and ammunition weight 25% more. Dire weapons wont reduce any DR with a especified overcomer, so a Dire Longsword wont reduce a DR 20/magic from a Dragon. A Dire weapon won't reduce a DR if it is provided because the enemy is not material.

Why dire ammo? Because poor archers would suck even more...

It's the only thing I can think about now... So I am sorry if this sucks, ok?

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-24, 08:40 PM
Simpler way to do armor peircing:

An armor piercing weapon ignore 1 pt. of the DR provided by light armor, 2 pts of DR provided by medium armor, and 3 pts of DR provided by heavy armor.

An armor piercing weapon has a +1 bonus to hit against opponents wearing light armor, a +2 bonus to hit against opponents wearing medium armor, and a +3 bonus to hit vs. opponents wearing heavy armor. An armor piercing projectile weapon gains an additional +1 to hit vs. opponents using a shield.

Fawsto
2007-11-24, 08:48 PM
Or that :smallbiggrin:

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-24, 08:59 PM
I used those rules for firearms in a campaign I ran a few years back. Minus the DR part (I wasn't using armor as DR for that game).

Ulzgoroth
2007-11-24, 09:07 PM
That shield compensation seems off. Don't the shields differ in area, not thickness? If it punches through a buckler, it'll go through a tower shield.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-24, 09:15 PM
Punching through a bucler will injure the arm. Punching through a tower shield might just hit air, unless you assume the arrow or other projectile completely tears through the shield, as opposed to punching through and being imbedded partway through the shield.

Ulzgoroth
2007-11-24, 09:23 PM
Ok. Viewed that way, I think it does the small shield a disservice. But mostly makes sense.

Grynning
2007-11-24, 11:31 PM
The 2nd edition of the Conan RPG by Mongoose has really good armor as DR rules, along with a neat "parry or dodge" defense system. In that system individual weapons have an armor piercing rank, and strength, feats, masterwork items, etc, up the AP value, and if the armor piercing rank is greater than the DR of the armor the DR is halved against the attack. The game is a bit more complex rules-wise than straight D&D but does a really nice job of making the melee combat more effective and brutal.

Fawsto
2007-11-24, 11:51 PM
just overcomplicated... I prefer the straight rules in arcana...

I never took a bite on DnD armor system... It always seems worn to me... Lol.

Felius
2007-11-25, 07:12 AM
Curiosity: Adamantine weapons, that fluffwise just cut through the lesser metals like if it weren't there should ignore all or part of the armor DR?

WhiteHarness
2007-11-25, 08:30 AM
Simpler way to do armor peircing:

An armor piercing weapon ignore 1 pt. of the DR provided by light armor, 2 pts of DR provided by medium armor, and 3 pts of DR provided by heavy armor.

An armor piercing weapon has a +1 bonus to hit against opponents wearing light armor, a +2 bonus to hit against opponents wearing medium armor, and a +3 bonus to hit vs. opponents wearing heavy armor. An armor piercing projectile weapon gains an additional +1 to hit vs. opponents using a shield.

Wait....What?

So you're saying that heavier armours are worse at resisting armour penetration than ones? What kind of sense does that make? :smallconfused:

Matthew
2007-11-25, 09:31 AM
Well, to be fair, it would just work out like this:

{table=head]Armour Type|Armour Class versus Normal Weapons|Armour Class versus Armour Piercing Weapons

Padded Armour|
+1|
+0

Leather Armour|
+2|
+1

Studded Leather Armour|
+3|
+2

Hide Armour|
+3|
+1

Light Mail Armour|
+4|
+3

Scale Armour|
+4|
+2

Mail Armour|
+5|
+3

Breast Plate Armour|
+5|
+3

Splinted Armour|
+6|
+3

Banded Armour|
+6|
+3

Half Plate Armour|
+7|
+4

Full Plate Armour|
+8|
+5

[/Table]

Not that whacked, but not exactly reasonable either. It would surely make more sense for Armour piercing Weapons to overcome DR, since the AC is deflection.

Satyr
2007-11-25, 09:47 AM
In our campaign, we use similar rules; armor gives DR, instead of AC there is a Defense Check, and either the BAB or the Reflex Save Bonus is added to the Defense. Effectivily, expierienced fighters are harder to hit than green ones (or untrained bookworms like wizards), and better armor makes you easier to hit (because of the Dexterity bonus limit) but less easy to injure.

I like this rule. It feels better, and because of the Defense Bonus based upon the BAB, it gives fighter types an advantage over wizards etc. what was considered as a great advantage for our campaign (where heroes are guys with bif swords and the spellcasters are villains or sidekicks. Magicians are no hero materiel.)

Fawsto
2007-11-25, 10:00 AM
that maybe the right choice... Adding BAB to AC would be interesting... But it ratherly kills a feat or two... Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise are dead with that rule.

Satyr
2007-11-25, 10:34 AM
But it ratherly kills a feat or two... Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise are dead with that rule.

Not necessarily; While Improved Combat Expertise becomes redundant, the normal expertise still allows you to shift points from your attack to your defense, which can be a life saver (the 6 or 7 points of DR will not help you that much against the hungry dragon's bite...)

Matthew
2007-11-25, 11:24 AM
The thing that troubles me about that approach is that it doesn't take into account the bypassing of Armour, it just assumes that the Characters are attempting to hit and any hit will impact Body Armour. I can kind of see the appeal, but in an abstract combat system like D&D, it just makes more sense to me for Armour to be a combination of Armour Class and Damage Reduction - that is to say, it should be both harder to get a good solid hit and less damaging on impact.

That said, adding BAB to Armour Class is a good Low Magic solution. I use an overlapping Defence System, where Player Characters can allocate Attacks to Defence, their Attack Bonus or Reflex Save becomes their Armour Class Bonus in those instances, whilst Shields grant a free Block.

So, for instance:


Fighter 1
Attributes: Strength 15, Dexterity 14,
Defences: Armour 19, Dodge 12, Parry 16, Block 18,
Equipment: Mail Armour [+1 DR], Dagger, Long Sword [+2 Parry], Heavy Shield [+4 Block]


...which works out well for our games.

thorgrim29
2007-11-25, 01:16 PM
Wait, game of thrones d20? Where? Must...... Get.....

Egill
2007-11-25, 01:23 PM
Wait, game of thrones d20? Where? Must...... Get.....

Guardians of Order went under, so you should probably check out eBay or hope that some local shop still has some in stock.

If you are lucky enough to find the limited edition book, it contains both Tri-Stat and d20 rules. If you care for Tri-Stat, that is.

Sleet
2007-11-25, 01:30 PM
Wait, game of thrones d20? Where? Must...... Get.....

Yes, you must. It rocks. :) As it doesn't assume a battlemat, it puts less tactical emphasis on movement and flanking etc. in battle and in return gives more tactical options in terms of called shots, fighting defensively, and the like.
You also have options like Valerian steel blades which ignore part of your target's DR.

Green Ronin has picked up the license, I'm sure their work will be equally good. But the Guardians of Order version is well worth grabbing if you can find it.