DS Empowered Healing+Aura of Vitality

[RSP]

So came across this interesting combo of EH and AoV. Seems like the RAW let’s the DS use 1 SP to reroll any of the healing dice from AoV, even over multiple turns (so the 1 SP covers rerolls for the entire duration of the spell).

Here’s the wordings:

“Aura of Vitality
Healing energy radiates from you in an aura with a 30-foot radius. Until the spell ends, the aura moves with you, centered on you. You can use a bonus action to cause one creature in the aura (including you) to regain 2d6 hit points.“

“Empowered Healing
Starting at 6th level, the divine energy coursing through you can empower healing spells. Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn.“

Thoughts? Anyone think it doesn’t work that way?

[JNAProductions]

I don’t read it that way.

It looks like Empowered Healing is 1 SP per instance of reroll.

[ender241]

So came across this interesting combo of EH and AoV. Seems like the RAW let’s the DS use 1 SP to reroll any of the healing dice from AoV, even over multiple turns (so the 1 SP covers rerolls for the entire duration of the spell).

Here’s the wordings:

“Aura of Vitality
Healing energy radiates from you in an aura with a 30-foot radius. Until the spell ends, the aura moves with you, centered on you. You can use a bonus action to cause one creature in the aura (including you) to regain 2d6 hit points.“

“Empowered Healing
Starting at 6th level, the divine energy coursing through you can empower healing spells. Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn.“

Thoughts? Anyone think it doesn’t work that way?

Emphasis mine.

The sorcery point is spent when the dice are rolled, not when the spell is cast. So it's going to cost a sorcerery point for every re-roll.

[RSP]

I don’t read it that way.

It looks like Empowered Healing is 1 SP per instance of reroll.


Emphasis mine.

The sorcery point is spent when the dice are rolled, not when the spell is cast. So it's going to cost a sorcerery point for every re-roll.

Here’s how I read it:

“Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once”

The spell restores 20d6 HPs (assuming all rounds used). So only one round’s roll (2d6) does not “determine the number of hit points [AoV] restores”, yet the first part of the sentence indicates it’s all the dice involved. This is furthered by the second part’s “reroll any number of those dice”.

To put it another way “those dice” are the dice rolls to determine how many HPs AoV restores, which isn’t known until the duration is over.

[ender241]

Here’s how I read it:

“Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once”

The spell restores 20d6 HPs (assuming all rounds used). So only one round’s roll (2d6) does not “determine the number of hit points [AoV] restores”, yet the first part of the sentence indicates it’s all the dice involved. This is furthered by the second part’s “reroll any number of those dice”.

To put it another way “those dice” are the dice rolls to determine how many HPs AoV restores, which isn’t known until the duration is over.

I see what you're saying... But I don't think that's how it works. It doesn't say it's talking about the total hit points the spell restores. The ability essentially lets you re-roll a single instance of healing to a single creature. The single 2d6 restored is still the number of hit points the spell restored that turn - which is what matters because the ability is once per turn, not once per spell. There are other abilities that apply to the entire casting of a spell and the wording is different in that case. If this was meant to work that way, it would say so. E.g. "when you cast a spell that restores hit points" vs "when you roll dice to restore hit points".

Your reading would imply you also don't gain the hit points until the spell ends. Which isn't how the spell works. You use a bonus action to heal, the dice are rolled, and the healing is applied. At that point you can decide to spend a SP to re-roll the 2d6 or not.

[RSP]

The ability essentially lets you re-roll a single instance of healing to a single creature.

Don’t agree with this: Mass Healing Word would be eligible for all 6 instances of healing. Zero question about that.

Note: the “once” in the “you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once”, is in regards to how many times you can do a reroll for a die, not in total instances. Without that, “Any number”, would mean you could continuously reroll the same die. With it, you can only reroll any of those dice once.

The once a turn using the feature doesn’t matter as you’re only using it once a turn anyway (when rolling the 2d6 as a BA for the spell).



The single 2d6 restored is still the number of hit points the spell restored that turn - which is what matters because the ability is once per turn, not once per spell.

This is in favor of my reading: if it said “once per spell”, then using it over multiple turns would not work. But it doesn’t, it says once per turn: that is, if you use a BA to heal 2d6 on a character on a turn after you cast AoV, and use your Action to cast Cure Wounds on a creature; only one of those can benefit from the EH ability that turn.

The healing from AoV is already once a turn anyway.



There are other abilities that apply to the entire casting of a spell and the wording is different in that case. If this was meant to work that way, it would say so. E.g. "when you cast a spell that restores hit points" vs "when you roll dice to restore hit points".

That’s just the timing of when you use the 1 SP: there’s no reason to use it at casting because you have no idea if you’ll need it. It would be an awful ability if you had to decide to use the SP before you saw the roll. Instead, you only use it when you see a roll that needs to be rerolled: hence, “whenever you…rolls dice” and not on casting.



Your reading would imply you also don't gain the hit points until the spell ends.

I don’t see why you’d draw that conclusion: the EH ability has no impact on the timing of the healing of AoV.

[ender241]

snip

So you're saying that you would roll and apply healing each turn but then spend the SP at the very end to potentially re-roll a certain number of those rolls and retroactively change the amount of healing that was done? That's... That's not how re-rolls (or really anything) works in 5e. Not only would this be a nightmare to track, but it could actually change the past (lol). Say a 4 is rolled for the 2d6 to heal someone (possibly even the caster of AoV) one round and the next round that person gets hit and is dropped to 1 hit point. The fight continues and eventually you win and the spell duration runs out. You decide to spend the SP to try to improve some of the healing that was done. You re-roll the 4 and roll a 2 this time. That means the next round that person would have been knocked unconscious instead of dropped to 1 hp, changing the entire fight retroactively.

You're making this much more complicated than it really is. Re-roll abilities are used to re-roll immediately and change the result immediately. Not rounds later.

For the case of multiple creatures being healed all at once (e.g. mass cure wounds), that's a much more interesting discussion. I don't think it's as clear as you make it out to be. I'm on the fence about how empowered healing works in that case. But for AoV it seems pretty clear.

[RSP]

So you're saying that you would roll and apply healing each turn but then spend the SP at the very end to potentially re-roll a certain number of those rolls and retroactively change the amount of healing that was done?

No. Why would you draw that conclusion from what I posted?

I specifically said the “Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores” refers to when you spend the point.



For the case of multiple creatures being healed all at once (e.g. mass cure wounds), that's a much more interesting discussion. I don't think it's as clear as you make it out to be. I'm on the fence about how empowered healing works in that case. But for AoV it seems pretty clear.

I think you’re adding in restrictions to the spell that aren’t there. EH applies to “dice [rolls] to determine the number of hit points a spell restores” and states that you can “reroll any number of those dice once.”

So any number of the dice rolls to determine the number of HPs a spell restores can be rerolled once.

There is no restriction on the number of creatures affected.

[Mostlymad]

There is no restriction on the number of creatures affected.

There is a restriction. There is a restriction in the spell itself...

AoV: "You can use a bonus action to cause one creature in the aura (including you) to regain 2d6 hit points."

And a restriction in the ability:

EH: "Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn.“

It doesn't say you or any allies, it says you or AN ally. Meaning one.

And no, you don't get to reroll all of the dice rolled for the spell over the spell's duration. You get to reroll any of the dice in a single roll.

On top of that, "you can only use this feature only once per turn", also reinforces the you only get a to reroll any of the dice in a single roll.

[RSP]

There is a restriction. There is a restriction in the spell itself...

AoV: "You can use a bonus action to cause one creature in the aura (including you) to regain 2d6 hit points."

I’m not sure why you would apply the wording of AoV to Mass Healing Word, which is what was discussed. No one is saying you can apply AoV to multiple creatures on one turn.



EH: "Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn.“

It doesn't say you or any allies, it says you or AN ally. Meaning one.

Sure but the caster rolls the dice for the spell: they’re effecting the change. And again, no one is arguing multiple characters can benefit from AoV over the course of any one turn.

For Mass Healing Word, the caster rolls the dice from the spell. Do you play that the targets of Fireball rolls the damage dice, or does the caster?

If the caster is rolling the dice, which is how I’ve always seen it, then what you’re saying doesn’t matter, because it’s one character (the caster) rolling the dice; not multiple.



And no, you don't get to reroll all of the dice rolled for the spell over the spell's duration. You get to reroll any of the dice in a single roll.

That’s not what the ability states though.



On top of that, "you can only use this feature only once per turn", also reinforces the you only get a to reroll any of the dice in a single roll.

No, it means what it says: you can only use EH once per turn, which isn’t violated by rerolling on other turns.

[chiefwaha]

Looking through this thread, evaluating arguments, and interpreting wording through my own head, I as a DM would rule Empowered Healing would only work on one Aura of Vitality roll for each spell point. Aura of Vitality has up to 10 separate rolls, it is not one giant pool of dice you roll at once, and Empowered Healing is worded such that spending the spell point applies to the roll and not the spell.

[Frogreaver]

So came across this interesting combo of EH and AoV. Seems like the RAW let’s the DS use 1 SP to reroll any of the healing dice from AoV, even over multiple turns (so the 1 SP covers rerolls for the entire duration of the spell).

Here’s the wordings:

“Aura of Vitality
Healing energy radiates from you in an aura with a 30-foot radius. Until the spell ends, the aura moves with you, centered on you. You can use a bonus action to cause one creature in the aura (including you) to regain 2d6 hit points.“

“Empowered Healing
Starting at 6th level, the divine energy coursing through you can empower healing spells. Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn.“

Thoughts? Anyone think it doesn’t work that way?

One spell can restore hp multiple times. Aura of vitality, healing spirit, etc.

The empowered healing ability references ‘any number of those dice’. The question is to what ‘those dice’ refers?

I say ‘those dice’ is related to the dice you are rolling. After all disciple of life previously referred to them ‘whenever you or an ally witching 5 ft if you rolls dice’. That’s the contextual answer. Empowered healing applies to that one roll of the dice, nothing more.

Re Mass Healing Word. I believe that spell has you roll the healing dice once and that roll applies to everyone. Thus a single reroll of that dice affects everyone. Much like rerolling fireballs damage affects all creatures in the aoe.

[JNAProductions]

I don’t think this is broken-if it worked, it would be a nifty little combo, but not game breaking in the slightest.

However, RSP, if you argued like this at my table, I’d not allow it-because you’re ignoring the rules in favor of your conclusion. I don’t mind bending or tweaking rules for players, but that comes with the knowledge that the rules are, in fact, being changed. Not just misread.

[ender241]

No. Why would you draw that conclusion from what I posted?

I specifically said the “Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores” refers to when you spend the point.


But the whole reason you're saying one use of the ability lasts the whole duration of the spell is because of the wording in when you spend the SP. If the "number of hit points a spell restores" refers to only the number restored that round, then the basis of your argument falls apart. If it refers to the total number of hit points restored by the spell over its entire duration, then you spend the SP and re-roll at the end of the spell's duration. And the latter is obviously problematic.

When it boils down to it, if EH was meant to let you re-roll multiple times over the course of a spell it would say so. It doesn't. Someone rolls dice for a healing spell, you decide it's a bad roll and want to re-roll, so spend a SP to do so. That's it. It's over. On a subsequent turn you can do it again if the conditions are met, but it's another SP whether it's the same spell or a different spell.

Regarding spells like Mass Cure Wounds and EH the answer boils down to whether you roll once for all creatures healed or roll separately for each creature. If the former, EH would help all recipients of the healing. If the latter, it would only help one creature. I tend to lean towards the former, but there's no official ruling on this for healing AoE (only damage AoE). But if you follow the rule for damage AoE you would only roll once. So I think I agree with you on that part but ultimately it's DM discretion since RAW isn't clear.

Relevant discussion here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110946/is-the-amount-healed-for-multiple-target-healing-spells-rolled-separately-per-ta

[stoutstien]

Just use extend metamagic with AoV.

[clash]

Just use extend metamagic with AoV.

FTW. Best answer in the thread.

[Dr.Samurai]

So came across this interesting combo of EH and AoV. Seems like the RAW let’s the DS use 1 SP to reroll any of the healing dice from AoV, even over multiple turns (so the 1 SP covers rerolls for the entire duration of the spell).

Here’s the wordings:

“Aura of Vitality
Healing energy radiates from you in an aura with a 30-foot radius. Until the spell ends, the aura moves with you, centered on you. You can use a bonus action to cause one creature in the aura (including you) to regain 2d6 hit points.“

“Empowered Healing
Starting at 6th level, the divine energy coursing through you can empower healing spells. Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn.“

Thoughts? Anyone think it doesn’t work that way?
The condition is "whenever you or an ally... rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores".

When that triggers, you "can spend 1 sorcery point".

If you do, you can "reroll any number of those dice".

"Those dice" refer to the dice in the condition "whenever you or an ally roll dice". It does not refer to the total dice healed by the spell over time. Empowered Healing does not speak to the duration and total amount of healing provided; it speaks to the condition "whenever you roll dice to determine hit points a spell restores".

Empowered Healing does not let you spend a sorcery point to reroll dice in the future. It lets you spend a sorcery point after you have rolled dice to heal hit points with a spell. The sorcery point you spend this turn cannot reroll dice you roll next turn.

Otherwise, what in Empowered Healing's language prevents you from telling the DM "I am rerolling that Healing Word roll because yesterday in that other encounter I spent a sorcery point to trigger Empowered Healing's ability"?

[RSP]

Otherwise, what in Empowered Healing's language prevents you from telling the DM "I am rerolling that Healing Word roll because yesterday in that other encounter I spent a sorcery point to trigger Empowered Healing's ability"?

That would be a different casting, of a spell where the hit points the spell restores has been resolved. That is what prevents you from affecting spells in the past: it’s been resolved.

With AoV, you pay the 1 SP on a roll, however, the HPs the spell restores have yet to be resolved (assuming the duration isn’t up).


Just use extend metamagic with AoV.

EH is not a Metamagic, so you can use both.


But the whole reason you're saying one use of the ability lasts the whole duration of the spell is because of the wording in when you spend the SP. If the "number of hit points a spell restores" refers to only the number restored that round, then the basis of your argument falls apart. If it refers to the total number of hit points restored by the spell over its entire duration, then you spend the SP and re-roll at the end of the spell's duration. And the latter is obviously problematic.

Again, not sure why you’re drawing the conclusions you draw: you can resolve some of the number of HPs the spell restores, without resolving all: that’s literally how the spell works regardless of EH. Saying the spell is either resolved on the first roll, therefore there aren’t subsequent rolls; or that all HPs wait until the duration ends, is just wrong on multiple fronts.



When it boils down to it, if EH was meant to let you re-roll multiple times over the course of a spell it would say so.

Or “if EH was meant to be a once a spell casting, it would say so.”

[ender241]

snip

It's obvious you're not going to change your mind on this. If you're looking for any sort of confirmation that your interpretation is right, it's doubtful you'll receive it here.

If you're the DM at your table, go ahead and make EH work however you like. It could probably use buffing anyway. If you're the player, good luck trying to convince your DM that it works this way.

[Mastikator]

Just run a simulation

Round 1,

Cleric casts aura of vitality, uses bonus action to heal fighter 2d6, rolls 1 and 2
Divine soul sorcerer uses empowered healing to reroll, rolls 3 and 4 (-1 sorcery point)


Round 2

Cleric uses bonus action to heal barbarian 2d6, rolls 2 and 2
Sorcerer uses empowered healing to reroll, 3 and 6
DM: "don't forget to count down sorcery point again"
Sorcerer: "um what, I used empowered healing at round 1 to reroll
DM: "so?"
Sorcerer: "it lets me reroll healing for spells"
DM: "please read the class feature out loud"
Sorcerer: "Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn."
DM: "see, it says whenever you roll dice, not whenever you cast healing spell. It can only be used once per turn and makes no mention of lasting beyond that turn"
Sorcerer: "But if we roll all 20d6 together..."
DM: "We're not doing that, that's not how aura of vitality works"
Cleric: "can we just move on?" :smallsigh:


Round 3

Sorcerer: "I'm casting extended fireball so it lasts 2 rounds"
DM: "Rocks fall the sorcerer dies"

[PhantomSoul]

Just run a simulation

Round 1,

Cleric casts aura of vitality, uses bonus action to heal fighter 2d6, rolls 1 and 2
Divine soul sorcerer uses empowered healing to reroll, rolls 3 and 4 (-1 sorcery point)


Round 2

Cleric uses bonus action to heal barbarian 2d6, rolls 2 and 2
Sorcerer uses empowered healing to reroll, 3 and 6
DM: "don't forget to count down sorcery point again"
Sorcerer: "um what, I used empowered healing at round 1 to reroll
DM: "so?"
Sorcerer: "it lets me reroll healing for spells"
DM: "please read the class feature out loud"
Sorcerer: "Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated. You can use this feature only once per turn."
DM: "see, it says whenever you roll dice, not whenever you cast healing spell. It can only be used once per turn and makes no mention of lasting beyond that turn"
Sorcerer: "But if we roll all 20d6 together..."
DM: "We're not doing that, that's not how aura of vitality works"
Cleric: "can we just move on?" :smallsigh:


Round 3

Sorcerer: "I'm casting extended fireball so it lasts 2 rounds"
DM: "Rocks fall the sorcerer dies"


The Cleric is either gunna start worshipping the rocks or think that the rocks are their god's will! (I would definitely RP it that way xD Hell, L10+, it would even be tempting to say that uses up my Divine Intervention lol)

[Dr.Samurai]

@Mastikator: I was going to do the same thing and provide a mock table conversation to illustrate how the plain reading works.

I understand RSP's point, but I don't think most tables read it that way and I don't think it would be easily explained or compelling at most tables.

[Frogreaver]

@Mastikator: I was going to do the same thing and provide a mock table conversation to illustrate how the plain reading works.

I understand RSP's point, but I don't think most tables read it that way and I don't think it would be easily explained or compelling at most tables.

I don’t get his point. It’s the worst rules lawyering I’ve seen attempted in 5e.

In context ‘those dice’ refers to the dice you just rolled and not all the dice ever rolled by *the spell.

While we can claim any pronoun usage is ambiguous and then twist that pronoun to refer to whatever best makes our case, that’s not how to proceed when trying to understand what a rule says. *There are some truly ambiguous pronoun cases, but this is not one.

[RSP]

It's obvious you're not going to change your mind on this. If you're looking for any sort of confirmation that your interpretation is right, it's doubtful you'll receive it here.

I’m not opposed to rethinking my PoV: I do it all the time. However, “all your HPs come in at the end of the duration” isn’t a good argument against what I’ve posted.

As another poster pointed out, “those dice” is what’s in question. My point is, the best definition of “those dice” is what’s given in the timing of the SP use: “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

It doesn’t say “dice rolled in an Action or Bonus Action”. It doesn’t say “once per casting”. It says “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores.”

The dice to determine the number of HPs AoV restores isn’t limited to one BA 2d6 roll: it’s potentially 10d6 (or 20d6 with Extended).

Limiting it to 2d6 is neither what the spell, nor EH ability states.



In context ‘those dice’ refers to the dice you just rolled and not all the dice ever rolled by *the spell.

Why aren’t “those dice” the “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”?

[Dr.Samurai]

I don’t get his point. It’s the worst rules lawyering I’ve seen attempted in 5e.
I am inclined to agree with you, hence why I said I don't think it would be easy or compelling when explained at the table.

But the point RSP is making is: You get to spend a sorcery point to reroll the dice when determining how many hit points a spell heals.

Since that condition "roll dice to determine how many hit points a spell heals" goes on for several rounds in the case of Aura of Vitality, your one sorcery point applies to all of it.

I think it's a bad reading of the interaction, I don't think most people will buy into it, and I don't think I will ever see eye to eye with RSP on most of their interpretations based on previous interactions, but I get how they see this working.

I don't get why they think "When you roll ---> you can spend a sorcery point" does not obviously mean "each time you roll you have the option of spending a sorcery point".

In context ‘those dice’ refers to the dice you just rolled and not all the dice ever rolled by *the spell.
I completely agree and said as much in my previous post.

[Mostlymad]

As others have stated you are reading too much into the text.

"Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated."

The condition to use EH is "Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of your rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores". For AoV this occurs when you use a bonus action to initiate rolling 2d6 to heal. As you roll the 2d6 to heal you fulfill the condition to use EH at that time, for that instance of healing, for 1 SP.

The condition for EH is upon the act of rolling, not the spell itself. Since the roll for AoV happens once per turn, it is then that the condition is fulfilled and you are able to use the EH ability upon that particular roll of the healing dice.

[chiefwaha]

As another poster pointed out, “those dice” is what’s in question. My point is, the best definition of “those dice” is what’s given in the timing of the SP use: “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

"Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated."

This sentence is qualifying when you can use the ability(when you roll dice, have a spell point, and aren't incapacitated), and very much says when you roll, not when you cast. You could remove the word dice from that sentence and still have the same meaning.

If you were modifying the spell, you could use the point to modify AOV regardless of whether or not you actually use the bonus action, but you can't. You can only use the ability if you use the bonus action to actually roll dice.

And to be fair, I'm not even saying I couldn't be talked into house ruling it the way you interpret, it doesn't seem overly powerful, but IMO RAW is against you.

[RSP]

I don't get why they think "When you roll ---> you can spend a sorcery point" does not obviously mean "each time you roll you have the option of spending a sorcery point".

Because it’s not what it says. Had it said “each time you roll…”, but it doesn’t (technically wording of “every time you roll, you must use a SP to affect a reroll” or some such would have clarified, if that indeed was the intent). It gives a timing for when the SP is used, and, as you summarized, refers to effecting the dice rolls of healing, which in AoV’s case, continues for the duration of up to 1 minute.



The condition to use EH is "Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of your rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores". For AoV this occurs when you use a bonus action to initiate rolling 2d6 to heal. As you roll the 2d6 to heal you fulfill the condition to use EH at that time, for that instance of healing, for 1 SP.

Except you’re ignoring what the sentence you quoted continues to say. It’s not just “rolls dice”. It’s “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

What are the dice that determine how many HPs AoV restores? Is it solely any single 2d6 roll? Or is the spell restoring HPs via dice rolls throughout its duration?


Please put the entire sentence. "Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once, provided you aren't incapacitated."

This sentence is qualifying when you can use the ability(when you roll dice, have a spell point, and aren't incapacitated), and very much says when you roll, not when you cast.

No disagreement: I went into this in an earlier post.

[Keltest]

Because it’s not what it says. Had it said “each time you roll…”, but it doesn’t (technically wording of “every time you roll, you must use a SP to affect a reroll” or some such would have clarified, if that indeed was the intent). It gives a timing for when the SP is used, and, as you summarized, refers to effecting the dice rolls of healing, which in AoV’s case, continues for the duration of up to 1 minute.

It says "when you roll dice" not "when you cast a spell that causes you to roll dice", therefore each instance of dice rolling is treated individually regardless of what causes the dice to be rolled.

This seems remarkably straightforward.

[chiefwaha]

It says "when you roll dice" not "when you cast a spell that causes you to roll dice", therefore each instance of dice rolling is treated individually regardless of what causes the dice to be rolled.

This seems remarkably straightforward.

+1

Thank you for more succinctly stating my position, Keltest.

[heavyfuel]

A reroll on a d6 is worth +0.75 HP. That's almost nothing.

That's 7.5 extra HP for the entire spell.

I'm completely fine with allowing it. It will change absolutely nothing except that the players will be a bit happier.

[RSP]

It says "when you roll dice" not "when you cast a spell that causes you to roll dice", therefore each instance of dice rolling is treated individually regardless of what causes the dice to be rolled.

This seems remarkably straightforward.

Which is the trigger for using the SP (and correction it says “whenever” not “when”).

As discussed, it would have different ramifications had it said “when you cast a spell”.

The point still stands that it refers to the total healing of a spell as written: “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”. Not “one-fifth of the dice rolls to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

[JNAProductions]

A reroll on a d6 is worth +0.75 HP. That's almost nothing.

That's 7.5 extra HP for the entire spell.

I'm completely fine with allowing it. It will change absolutely nothing except that the players will be a bit happier.

Right-it's not OP. 1 SP to reroll lots of healing ain't a big deal. Healing Spirit, for instance, does a lot more without adjustment.

But it's ALSO not what the rules say. If a player at my table asked for this houserule, I'd be chill with allowing it, but if they insisted they're right about the RAW, they'd be told no.

[Keltest]

Which is the trigger for using the SP (and correction it says “whenever” not “when”).

As discussed, it would have different ramifications had it said “when you cast a spell”.

The point still stands that it refers to the total healing of a spell as written: “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”. Not “one-fifth of the dice rolls to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

The spell has multiple, discrete instances of restoring HP, it isnt one giant pool that gets added up at the end of the spell's duration.

[Mostlymad]

Except you’re ignoring what the sentence you quoted continues to say. It’s not just “rolls dice”. It’s “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

What are the dice that determine how many HPs AoV restores? Is it solely any single 2d6 roll? Or is the spell restoring HPs via dice rolls throughout its duration?The condition is rolling dice, the qualifier is that they have to be dice rolled "to determine the number of hit points a spell restores". The dice that determine how many HP AoV restores is 2d6, per turn. Again, the condition for EH is rolling the dice to regain HP. For AoV this occurs after spending a bonus action to roll 2d6. It is upon resolving this roll of 2d6 that you can use EH to reroll any number of the 2d6 that you choose. You are confusing the condition with the qualifier or at the very least trying to combine them.

[Dr.Samurai]

Which is the trigger for using the SP (and correction it says “whenever” not “when”).

As discussed, it would have different ramifications had it said “when you cast a spell”.

The point still stands that it refers to the total healing of a spell as written: “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”. Not “one-fifth of the dice rolls to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”. That's an interpretation. It doesn't say "total". You are reading that into the spell. Either interpretation fits the language in the sentence.

When you roll 2d6 in one turn, you are rolling "dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores".

This is the more natural and intuitive reading of the sentence.

If you read it as "the total amount the spell has healed when it ends" it's less intuitive and would require more language. Hence this thread, because you noticed it could be read a different way that most people don't read it as.

[Dr.Samurai]

The condition is rolling dice, the qualifier is that they have to be dice rolled "to determine the number of hit points a spell restores". The dice that determine how many HP AoV restores is 2d6, per turn. Again, the condition for EH is rolling the dice to regain HP. For AoV this occurs after spending a bonus action to roll 2d6. It is upon resolving this roll of 2d6 that you can use EH to reroll any number of the 2d6 that you choose. You are confusing the condition with the qualifier or at the very least trying to combine them.
Great explanation.

[chiefwaha]

Which is the trigger for using the SP (and correction it says “whenever” not “when”).

As discussed, it would have different ramifications had it said “when you cast a spell”.

The point still stands that it refers to the total healing of a spell as written: “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”. Not “one-fifth of the dice rolls to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

Again, the part of the sentence you're referring to is defining what triggers the ability, which is the act of rolling.

The reason they qualify it as a spell is to add further clarification to the trigger... Meaning you can only empower healing from a spell, not other sources, potions being one example.

No where does it imply that the empowered healing ability modifies anything more than the current roll of the dice..

[RSP]

That's an interpretation. It doesn't say "total". You are reading that into the spell. Either interpretation fits the language in the sentence.

When you roll 2d6 in one turn, you are rolling "dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores".

This is the more natural and intuitive reading of the sentence.

It doesn’t say total, but it also doesn’t say 1 or 2 dice.

When I read “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, I don’t assume “oh, that must be referring to only to a subset of the dice rolled to determine the number of HPs a spell restores.”

When adding in “reroll any number of those dice once”, I assume “any number of those dice”, indeed means “any number of those dice rolled to determine the number of HPs a spell restores”, not a fraction of “those dice.”

[Keltest]

It doesn’t say total, but it also doesn’t say 1 or 2 dice.

When I read “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, I don’t assume “oh, that must be referring to only to a subset of the dice rolled to determine the number of HPs a spell restores.”

When adding in “reroll any number of those dice once”, I assume “any number of those dice”, indeed means “any number of those dice rolled to determine the number of HPs a spell restores”, not a fraction of “those dice.”

As i said, the spell has multiple, discrete instances of dice being rolled for healing. Therefore, you need multiple instances of applying the metamagic. It is on a per-dice-rolled basis, not a per-spell basis.

[heavyfuel]

But it's ALSO not what the rules say. If a player at my table asked for this houserule, I'd be chill with allowing it, but if they insisted they're right about the RAW, they'd be told no.

I think the rules are ambiguous enough that either interpretation is valid. A DM being permissive in their reading isn't even a houserule

[JNAProductions]

I think the rules are ambiguous enough that either interpretation is valid. A DM being permissive in their reading isn't even a houserule

I don’t find the rules ambiguous. It’s pretty clearly not supposed to apply to multiple rolls, and it’s not worded incorrectly for that purpose.

[Dr.Samurai]

It doesn’t say total, but it also doesn’t say 1 or 2 dice.
But it does tell you when to spend the sorcery point.


When I read “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, I don’t assume “oh, that must be referring to only to a subset of the dice rolled to determine the number of HPs a spell restores.”
You're not including "Whenever...". That's the moment you spend the sorcery point to gain the effect of Empowered Healing.

If you include "Whenever..." then it is very easy to see that it is applying to the discrete dice roll you make as a bonus action on that turn.

When adding in “reroll any number of those dice once”, I assume “any number of those dice”, indeed means “any number of those dice rolled to determine the number of HPs a spell restores”, not a fraction of “those dice.”
It means any number of the rolled dice, so you can keep a roll of 6 but roll the two 3s again. "Any number" does not imply that it applies for the dice roll throughout the duration of a spell.

[Frogreaver]

I think the rules are ambiguous enough that either interpretation is valid. A DM being permissive in their reading isn't even a houserule

I don’t. The rules are clear. That you can rules lawyer into a more advantageous interpretation for you doesn’t make them unclear.


It doesn’t say total, but it also doesn’t say 1 or 2 dice.

When I read “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, I don’t assume “oh, that must be referring to only to a subset of the dice rolled to determine the number of HPs a spell restores.”

When adding in “reroll any number of those dice once”, I assume “any number of those dice”, indeed means “any number of those dice rolled to determine the number of HPs a spell restores”, not a fraction of “those dice.”

Let’s play devils advocate here. If it takes 10 turns to roll the healing dice for an aura of vitality to determine how much hp the spell restores, then clearly one roll of 2d6 doesn’t meet the trigger of ‘rolling dice to determine how much hp a spell restores’.

Therefore, by raw you cannot use DS on aura of vitality because it never meets the trigger.

[RSP]

It means any number of the rolled dice, so you can keep a roll of 6 but roll the two 3s again. "Any number" does not imply that it applies for the dice roll throughout the duration of a spell.

Disagree. “Any number” of “those dice” that “determine the number of hit points a spell restores” is, in fact, any number.

You’re artificially limiting it to “2d6 to determine the number of hit points a spell restores.”

Yet that is not what the spell states.

This is certainly a niche case, most healing spells don’t have over-time effects.

Another example could be Catnap, depending on whether you view regaining hit points from rolling SR HD induced by the spell, as hit points a spell restores, or not.

[heavyfuel]

I don’t. The rules are clear. That you can rules lawyer into a more advantageous interpretation for you doesn’t make them unclear.

That seems awfully aggressive and gratuitous as I'm not rules lawyering anything so... :smallconfused:

You can think the rules are clear cut, but there are people here arguing that no, they are not. A DM would have to make a ruling on how they interpret this rule. What I said isn't rules lawyering, it's simply "I'm fine with OPs interpretation because even if it's not RAI, it's a neat interaction that gives a small reward for the player finding it"

[Keltest]

Disagree. “Any number” of “those dice” that “determine the number of hit points a spell restores” is, in fact, any number.

You’re artificially limiting it to “2d6 to determine the number of hit points a spell restores.”

Yet that is not what the spell states.

This is certainly a niche case, most healing spells don’t have over-time effects.

Another example could be Catnap, depending on whether you view regaining hit points from rolling SR HD induced by the spell, as hit points a spell restores, or not.

Let me ask you this. Do you dispute that the metamagic only works once per unit of dice rolled, that the spell has multiple units of dice rolled, or both?

[Frogreaver]

That seems awfully aggressive and gratuitous as I'm not rules lawyering anything so... :smallconfused:

You can think the rules are clear cut, but there are people here arguing that no, they are not. A DM would have to make a ruling on how they interpret this rule. What I said isn't rules lawyering, it's simply "I'm fine with OPs interpretation because even if it's not RAI, it's a neat interaction that gives a small reward for the player finding it"

That whole interpretation hinges on rules lawyering. It’s neither RAW or RAI.

That there is disagreement about a rule interpretation doesn’t mean all interpretations are valid.

I agree the ruling isn’t problematic in gameplay but that’s irrelevant as to whether the ruling was based on RAW or rules lawyering.

[ciopo]

Disagree. “Any number” of “those dice” that “determine the number of hit points a spell restores” is, in fact, any number.
Your interpretation means the divine soul sorcerer only needs to spend one sorcery point on empowered healing once, period, in his whole life.

Because "a spell" is not "the spell that triggers".

That's the kind of bending I'm seeing here to make it apply to the whole duration of Aura of vitality.

But if we're doing that, go the whole mile, spend one sorcery point on empowered healing, then once per turn apply it to any of those dices that determine the number of hit points a spell restores.

If your trigger is not the rolling of dice, then it doesn't matter that you spent the sorcery point on a healing word 8 levels ago, apply your empowered healing forever (once per turn) to all dice rolled to determine the number of hit points a spell restores, why limit yourself to Aura of vitality?


(No I'm not advocating that this is correct, I'm in the camp "spend SP on each istance of rolling healing dice", I'm extrapolating)

[Dr.Samurai]

Disagree. “Any number” of “those dice” that “determine the number of hit points a spell restores” is, in fact, any number.

You’re artificially limiting it to “2d6 to determine the number of hit points a spell restores.”
Sorry but, you do see where the interpretation of others is coming from right? Your OP does understand that there is in fact a general interpretation that is different from what you believe you've discovered here, right?

I'm not sure why you're qualifying this as an "artificial" limit.

Let’s play devils advocate here. If it takes 10 turns to roll the healing dice for an aura of vitality to determine how much hp the spell restores, then clearly one roll of 2d6 doesn’t meet the trigger of ‘rolling dice to determine how much hp a spell restores’.

Therefore, by raw you cannot use DS on aura of vitality because it never meets the trigger.
In case this was missed because of the edit, I'm quoting Frogreaver here because I would like to see what you think of this RSP. It would seem to me that only the last usage would "determine the number of hit points a spell restores" under RSP's interpretation, and then you wouldn't even know that it's the last usage unless you declare that you won't use it again or the duration is up.

@Ciopo: I made a similar remark; it seems to me by decoupling the expenditure of the sorcery point, the reroll of the dice, and the initial dice rolling that triggered it, you can basically have Empowered Healing always on.

[JNAProductions]

@Ciopo: I made a similar remark; it seems to me by decoupling the expenditure of the sorcery point, the reroll of the dice, and the initial dice rolling that triggered it, you can basically have Empowered Healing always on.

And here’s the thing-that wouldn’t be broken. If Empowered Healing didn’t cost SP, that’d be fine.

But it ain’t how the rule works. It’d be a fine change, if unneeded, but it would be a change.

[heavyfuel]

That whole interpretation hinges on rules lawyering.

If any discussion about possible interpretation of any rule is what you consider "rules lawyering", then I agree. I don't use "rules lawyering" in that sense though. I use it when it's a player arguing with the DM that the rules do allow for something, which is not the case, as I'm not arguing with any DM nor would I ever argue with one about such a rule.

[Frogreaver]

If any discussion about possible interpretation of any rule is what you consider "rules lawyering", then I agree. I don't use "rules lawyering" in that sense though. I use it when it's a player arguing with the DM that the rules do allow for something, which is not the case, as I'm not arguing with any DM nor would I ever argue with one about such a rule.

That’s not what I’m saying at all.

There are ambiguous cases in rules where the DM has to make a call. That’s not rules lawyering. That’s not the case here. The rule is clear and unambiguous. Twisting the language in the rule even unintentionally to gain a beneficial ruling is rules lawyering. That’s the only way to get to RSP’s reading.

[heavyfuel]

The rule is clear and unambiguous.

Says you...

[Frogreaver]

In case this was missed because of the edit, I'm quoting Frogreaver here because I would like to see what you think of this RSP. It would seem to me that only the last usage would "determine the number of hit points a spell restores" under RSP's interpretation, and then you wouldn't even know that it's the last usage unless you declare that you won't use it again or the duration is up.


I would say the last instance of 2d6 healing didn’t meet the requirement under his interpretation either because rolling 2d6 did not determine the amount of hp the spell restored. No trigger met, no rerolled healing dice.

There is no roll of healing dice for aura of vitality that determines the amount of hp the spell heals.


Says you...

Someone disputing something being clear and unambiguous doesn’t make it so.

[chiefwaha]

"Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores,"
This is talking about the trigger and you're trying to add more meaning than stated. "A spell" in this case is limiting the trigger to healing from spells.

"you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll any number of those dice once,"
The 'those dice' in this part of the sentence, refer back to the trigger of 'rolls dice', and has no relation to any spell description whatsoever.

RAW and RAI are pretty clear here, IMO.

[RSP]

"Whenever you or an ally within 5 feet of you rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores,"
…The 'those dice' in this part of the sentence, refer back to the trigger of 'rolls dice', and has no relation to any spell description whatsoever.


Close. The “those dice” refer to “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, not just “rolls dice”.

[Frogreaver]

Close. The “those dice” refer to “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, not just “rolls dice”.

Under your interpretation, Exactly which dice roll triggers the trigger ‘whenever rolls dice to determine the number of hit points the spell restores’?

[PhantomSoul]

Close. The “those dice” refer to “rolls dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, not just “rolls dice”.

I would say those are functionally the same... but they aren't even in that you've taken an entire verb phrase (that contains the noun) as a referent for the noun phrase... and it doesn't make sense even with that (which isn't surprising, since it's not even a noun phrase).

[RSP]

Under your interpretation, Exactly which dice roll triggers the trigger ‘whenever rolls dice to determine the number of hit points the spell restores’?

Any of the rolls can trigger it: that’s what the “whenever” refers to. And once it’s triggered, you can reroll “any number of those dice” “to determine the number of hit points a spell restores.”

[PhantomSoul]

Any of the rolls can trigger it: that’s what the “whenever” refers to. And once it’s triggered, you can reroll “any number of those dice” “to determine the number of hit points a spell restores.”

Any number... so precisely the full 2d6 specified by the spell and rolled when you use the ability. Excellent! The spell didn't have a preroll for all of the dice and you chose from those dice, and instead specifies separate rollings of 2d6, which the Metamagic can trigger on. Glad that's sorted.

[RSP]

Any number... so precisely the full 2d6 specified by the spell and rolled when you use the ability. Excellent! The spell didn't have a preroll for all of the dice and you chose from those dice, and instead specifies separate rollings of 2d6, which the Metamagic can trigger on. Glad that's sorted.

Trigger, yes. Then the previously mentioned part kicks in:


And once it’s triggered, you can reroll “any number of those dice” “to determine the number of hit points a spell restores.”

The trigger is any roll to determine the number of HPs a spell restores. The assumption many on this thread make us that there’s only one roll when a spell restores HPs: however, there are a few examples when that’s not the case (AoV being one example).

The description continues that “any number of those dice” can be rerolled. What are those dice? The dice from a spell to restore HPs. Any number of those dice to determine the number of HPs a spell restores, isn’t limited to one round of dice, when the spell has multiple rounds of dice rolls to determine the number of HPs a spell restores.

[Frogreaver]

Any of the rolls can trigger it: that’s what the “whenever” refers to. And once it’s triggered, you can reroll “any number of those dice” “to determine the number of hit points a spell restores.”

See below.


Any number... so precisely the full 2d6 specified by the spell and rolled when you use the ability. Excellent! The spell didn't have a preroll for all of the dice and you chose from those dice, and instead specifies separate rollings of 2d6, which the Metamagic can trigger on. Glad that's sorted.

@RSP, Phantom gets it. Though I want to state it a bit more precisely than he did.

According to RSP above - the trigger 'whenever rolls dice to determine the number of hit points the spell restores' = rolling 2d6.

Thus, the dice to determine the hit points the spell restores is not 20d6 dice but 2d6 dice. Since nothing in the ability previously referred to 20d6 then the use of 'those dice' later on in the ability cannot refer to 20d6. The only dice Empowered Healing has actually referred to under RSP's interpretation is the 2d6 dice that determined the number of hit points the spell restores. Thus, 'those dice' must also refer to the 2d6.

TLDR: RSP is using 2 different meanings for 'whenever rolls dice to determine the number of hit points the spell restores - 2d6)' and 'those dice - 20d6 (even though 'those dice' is a reference back to the dice rolled to determine the number of hit points the spell restores which he just defined as 2d6)'.

[RSP]

See below.



@RSP, Phantom gets it. Though I want to state it a bit more precisely than he did.

According to RSP above - the trigger 'whenever rolls dice to determine the number of hit points the spell restores' = rolling 2d6.

Thus, the dice to determine the hit points the spell restores is not 20d6 dice but 2d6 dice.

AoV is not, in fact, limited to just 2d6 HPs restored (barring loss of Concentration).

The dice rolled to restore HPs from AoV can include up to 20d6 (or 40d6 with Extended).

Disagree with this? Is AoV limited to just 2d6?

[Frogreaver]

AoV is not, in fact, limited to just 2d6 HPs restored (barring loss of Concentration).

The dice rolled to restore HPs from AoV can include up to 20d6 (or 40d6 with Extended).

Disagree with this? Is AoV limited to just 2d6?

Doesn't matter. Define your terms.

If 'whenver you roll dice to determine the number of hit points AoV restores' = 2d6 as you just claimed then 'those dice' does not refer to 20d6.

[Keltest]

AoV is not, in fact, limited to just 2d6 HPs restored (barring loss of Concentration).

The dice rolled to restore HPs from AoV can include up to 20d6 (or 40d6 with Extended).

Disagree with this? Is AoV limited to just 2d6?

As someone mentioned upthread, if youre going to allow this interpretation, then you only need to spend one SP ever over a character's lifetime for this metamagic. You either acknowledge there is a cutoff point or there is not.

[RSP]

So for those arguing it’s limited to “a one-time roll”, your stance is that if a table only has one 8-sided die, and therefore can only roll one die at a time, an upcast 3rd-level-slot Cure Wounds can only benefit from EH for a single die roll, right?

Because you’ve artificially limited the ability to a single roll, as opposed to what the ability says: “to reroll any number of those dice” “to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

Any number of dice to restore HPs a spell restores.


As someone mentioned upthread, if youre going to allow this interpretation, then you only need to spend one SP ever over a character's lifetime for this metamagic. You either acknowledge there is a cutoff point or there is not.

Incorrect: it’s limited to a spell (as I read it, but if you’re arguing otherwise go ahead).

[Keltest]

So for those arguing it’s limited to “a one-time roll”, your stance is that if a table only has one 8-sided die, and therefore can only roll one die at a time, an upcast 3rd-level-slot Cure Wounds can only benefit from EH for a single die roll, right?

Because you’ve artificially limited the ability to a single roll, as opposed to what the ability says: “to reroll any number of those dice” “to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

Any number of dice to restore HPs a spell restores.



Incorrect: it’s limited to a spell (as I read it, but if you’re arguing otherwise go ahead).

Yes, the intent was to point out that its nonsensical and clearly against the wording of the spell.

Empowered healing makes no mention of being on a "per spell" basis. Its per dice roll. Period, full stop. Some spells have multiple dice rolls over the course of the duration. You don't spend the sorcery point when you cast the spell, you spend it when you roll dice. Once you rolled your dice for that particular effect of the spell, the metamagic is spent, done, gone, over. The spell may (or may not) subsequently ask you to roll more dice again. This is a new group of dice being rolled by a different (if possibly identical) effect of the same spell, it is not part of the same group of dice being rolled.

[Frogreaver]

As someone mentioned upthread, if youre going to allow this interpretation, then you only need to spend one SP ever over a character's lifetime for this metamagic. You either acknowledge there is a cutoff point or there is not.

Personally, I never found that argument very persuasive. RSP isn't actually making that claim. Making the claim he is making doesn't of necessity lead to that slippery slope. While it's interesting to see just how much further we could twist Empowered Healing if we wanted, it's not a persuasive counterpoint to RSP's position. It's a bad argument IMO.


So for those arguing it’s limited to “a one-time roll”, your stance is that if a table only has one 8-sided die, and therefore can only roll one die at a time, an upcast 3rd-level-slot Cure Wounds can only benefit from EH for a single die roll, right?

Because you’ve artificially limited the ability to a single roll, as opposed to what the ability says: “to reroll any number of those dice” “to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

Any number of dice to restore HPs a spell restores.

This is an even worse argument than the one against your position I just responded to. We have understood for decades that when rolling 2d6 the game always assumes simultaneous rolling. We can sequentially roll 1d6 twice to replicate rolling 2d6 due to not having 2 different d6's, but that's just a hack to play the game with fewer dice than abilities call for.

The real argument against your position is that you refuse to have 'those dice' refer to the same dice mentioned earlier in the ability. That lack of consistency is the strongest argument against your position. Whether it's 2d6 or 20d6, it refers to the same dice the empowered healing ability previously mentioned.

[ender241]

Personally, I never found that argument very persuasive. RSP isn't actually making that claim. Making the claim he is making doesn't of necessity lead to that slippery slope. While it's interesting to see just how much further we could twist Empowered Healing if we wanted, it's not a persuasive counterpoint to RSP's position. It's a bad argument IMO.

I disagree. I mean, it is a bad argument. But I think it's actually a better argument than the one RSP is making. Take a look at the wording for Quickened Spell metamagic (emphasis mine):


Quickened Spell
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.

Quickened Spell stipulates that it only affects that casting of the spell. EH has no such stipulation. So if we accept RSP's argument that:


it refers to the total healing of a spell as written: “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”.

The total healing of a spell. Not total healing of a casting of a spell.

So, the round EH is triggered and the SP is spent, those 2d6 are “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell (AoV) restores." Next round, if you do it again, those 2d6 are “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell (AoV) restores." The total 20d6 over the duration of the casting are “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell (AoV) restores." 5 minutes later if you cast it again, that next 20d6 are “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell (AoV) restores." Cast it again tomorrow, and that castings 20d6 are “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell (AoV) restores." And so on.

"Spell" and "casting" are not equivalent. So if the feature applies to all rolls for the spell, it applies for all castings.

EH confirmed best healing feature in the game.

[ciopo]

sidenote : is the caster or the target that rolls those dices? do you need to stand next to the cleric or next to the patient?

[Keltest]

sidenote : is the caster or the target that rolls those dices? do you need to stand next to the cleric or next to the patient?

The caster is the one spending the bonus action, so presumably the caster rolls the dice, the same as every other spell.

Apologies if that was sarcasm and i simply missed it.

[ciopo]

No it's a genuine question, I default to roll the dices of the healing I do, too, but I can't for the life of me remember if this is an actual rule written somewhere.

Mostly because the wording of (all?, most?) healing is "(target) creature regains hit points" , which lowkey puts the target as the actor, so to say.

and it's an interesting facet about the flavor of empowered healing, because if you are "making healing stronk", it makes sense to me, visually, to be near the target because that's where the healing is happening, rather than 30ft away next to the cleric shouting to the barbarian to "stop dying you tincan!" (imagining healing word)

I guess a point of comparison is guidance : the target rolls the d4. The spell specifically says so. This is a bit amusing to me because on my saturday group when I give guidance to others, I actually roll the d4, complete with little flourish

[Keltest]

No it's a genuine question, I default to roll the dices of the healing I do, too, but I can't for the life of me remember if this is an actual rule written somewhere.

Mostly because the wording of (all?, most?) healing is "(target) creature regains hit points" , which lowkey puts the target as the actor, so to say.

and it's an interesting facet about the flavor of empowered healing, because if you are "making healing stronk", it makes sense to me, visually, to be near the target because that's where the healing is happening, rather than 30ft away next to the cleric shouting to the barbarian to "stop dying you tincan!" (imagining healing word)

I guess a point of comparison is guidance : the target rolls the d4. The spell specifically says so. This is a bit amusing to me because on my saturday group when I give guidance to others, I actually roll the d4, complete with little flourish

Bless is another point of comparison, which also specifies that the target is the one rolling the dice.

Although personally as a DM I like to pass around the responsibility of the literal dice rolling as much as I can, because it helps keep people involved and invested, even if strictly speaking im the one who should be rolling.

[RSP]

Empowered healing makes no mention of being on a "per spell" basis.

It makes no mention of being a “whatever you’re currently rolling at this one point in time”, hence my pointing out of rolling one die at a time.

Regardless of what die or dice we’re just in your hand (and now on the table/VTT), it refers to the “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, which in the case of AoV, is 2d6 per round, for the duration.



Its per dice roll. Period, full stop.

No: this would mean the table with a single d6, would only get to reroll one of those, as each d6 is a roll.



Some spells have multiple dice rolls over the course of the duration. You don't spend the sorcery point when you cast the spell, you spend it when you roll dice. Once you rolled your dice for that particular effect of the spell, the metamagic is spent, done, gone, over. The spell may (or may not) subsequently ask you to roll more dice again. This is a new group of dice being rolled by a different (if possibly identical) effect of the same spell, it is not part of the same group of dice being rolled.

Disagree. Look at Mass Cure Wounds:

“Choose up to six Creatures in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on that point. Each target regains Hit Points equal to 3d8 + your Spellcasting ability modifier.”

EH doesn’t only effect one 3d8 roll: it effects “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, which, for MCW is 3d8 per creature affected.

You’re creating restrictions that the ability does not state exist.

[Keltest]

It makes no mention of being a “whatever you’re currently rolling at this one point in time”, hence my pointing out of rolling one die at a time.

Regardless of what die or dice we’re just in your hand (and now on the table/VTT), it refers to the “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, which in the case of AoV, is 2d6 per round, for the duration.

Incorrect. The ability is prefaced "when you roll dice" not "when you cast a spell". Rolling 2d6 is rolling dice. You have then rolled the dice, and thus the effect is completed.



No: this would mean the table with a single d6, would only get to reroll one of those, as each d6 is a roll.

You are rolling 2d6. The literal, physical die or dice being rolled to achieve this result is irrelevant, having 2 numbers from 1 to 6 generated and combined is the important number here.



Disagree. Look at Mass Cure Wounds:

“Choose up to six Creatures in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on that point. Each target regains Hit Points equal to 3d8 + your Spellcasting ability modifier.”

EH doesn’t only effect one 3d8 roll: it effects “dice to determine the number of hit points a spell restores”, which, for MCW is 3d8 per creature affected.

You’re creating restrictions that the ability does not state exist.


Mass Cure Wounds, like all spells affecting multiple targets, only uses one dice roll for all targets unless the spell indicates otherwise, which MCW does not.

[RSP]

Incorrect. The ability is prefaced "when you roll dice" not "when you cast a spell". Rolling 2d6 is rolling dice. You have then rolled the dice, and thus the effect is completed.

I’ve never claimed it’s when casting a spell, I’m not sure why you keep repeating this when quoting me.

As for your 2d6 argument, rolling one die is also a roll. However, the effect isn’t completed in AoV with only a 2d6 roll (unless Conc is dropped).



Mass Cure Wounds, like all spells affecting multiple targets, only uses one dice roll for all targets unless the spell indicates otherwise, which MCW does not.

Citation for this? Are you conflating the damage rules here? For Damage Rolls, we have this rule:

“If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell’s damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.”

I don’t see a corresponding rule for healing, but this is clearly just for damage.

So if the RAW is, then, each character healed is a separate 3d8 roll, wouldn’t that then support the view that the EH ability effects the healing dice for the spell, not just a lone roll?