OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

RMS Oceanic

2022-03-30, 09:11 AM

Twelve gods I hope it's the former.

The final direction I see her having rhetorical room to maneuver, even if by now it's clearly a retreat into emotion, is that a controlled demolition of the world by the gods would be preferable to them making a rush job of it after the Snarl begins to turn loose and some souls are consigned to oblivion because the lifeboats were launched half full with inconsistent boarding priorities. And I wouldn't mind if she wiggles there, because I think that deepens her character, even if someone else has to persuade her emotionally, rather than logically.

Ionathus

2022-03-30, 09:13 AM

I wouldn't quite say that - Durkon honestly got pretty close and I don't know if Roy has the emotional investment for his way to work on Redcloak.

Yeah, I honestly do believe Durkon was the best shot at it. He brings the religious perspective that Roy doesn't have, and he also has some great parallels to Redcloak ("finding out the gods just see ye as bargainin' chips... or crops.") that helped him relate a little better. I think Redcloak was just too hard of a sell, no matter who did the talking...at least, for the first try!

halfeye

2022-03-30, 09:14 AM

So now, finally, Serini knows what's up. Hoping for at least some sense from her from here on out.

danielxcutter

2022-03-30, 09:14 AM

Dear god, that last panel was a delight! Excellent work as always :smallsmile:

Notably we didn't see Serini's reaction...personally I expect her to take the news with a little less suspicion than Redcloak. It would be weird for both people who Durkon tells about the Godsmoot to reject it out of paranoia, and Serini seems to have warmed at least a tiny bit to the Order in this comic...or at least she's not flinging as many insults.

I wouldn't say Redcloak's issue was paranoia honestly - and not just because a lot of beings really do have it out for him and his patron.

The final rhetorical room I see her having room to maneuver, even if by now it's clearly a retreat into emotion, is that a controlled demolition of the world by the gods would be preferable to them making a rush job of it after the Snarl begins to turn loose and some souls are consigned to oblivion because the lifeboats were launched half full with inconsistent boarding priorities. And I wouldn't mind if she wiggles there, because I think that deepens her character, even if someone else has to persuade her emotionally, rather than logically.

If that happens I imagine that'd also put the "Serini's position is RightTM" argument to rest, but I'll settle for her at least seriously considering it instead of just being insufferably smug.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 09:16 AM

Ivrytwr

2022-03-30, 09:19 AM

"deeply stupid" - my new favorite descriptor.

Thanks Giant!

... Yeah, them too!

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 09:19 AM

Belkar's digressions are still hilarious.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 09:20 AM

So will she be swayed, or will she move the goalposts? Interesting quandry ahead. "Twelve gods I hope it's the former.
Seconded.

On the bright side, if she doesn't then we know the Giant has a lot more planned for the final book.
I'm not sure. Between monstrous equality and the world in the rifts, it seems like there plenty of ground to tread.

Okay if she doesn't even humor them after this I don't think anyone'll think twice about hopping on the Serini Is A Damn FoolTM bandwagon.
I'll buy a first class ticket to ride that train, yep.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 09:27 AM

Also, surprised Belkar is actually onboard with going beck to Firmament to finish off nay straggler vampire.

Figured he'd want to leave the busywork to somebody else.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 09:30 AM

Also, surprised Belkar is actually onboard with going beck to Firmament to finish off nay straggler vampire.

Figured he'd want to leave the busywork to somebody else.

He spent a long time hating a vampire and I would not be surprised if he has transfered that hate to any who are in league with said vampire.

Edit: It is also important so that a) the world survives and b) Durkon (and family) not getting damned to Hel.

Shining Wrath

2022-03-30, 09:32 AM

I don't think Serini is buying this. Why should she?

But I also think she's thinking about the possibility that this might be true.

Windscion

2022-03-30, 09:34 AM

Shining Wrath

2022-03-30, 09:37 AM

Also, we just got a count of previous worlds: billions. I don't know if that's been explicitly stated before.
Which accounts for some of the weird worlds - the gods must be profoundly bored by now.
Which also means that if they decide this one is boring, they may deep six it and recreate, which means they need the Dark One to survive this cycle.

Kaed

2022-03-30, 09:37 AM

Also, surprised Belkar is actually onboard with going beck to Firmament to finish off nay straggler vampire.

Figured he'd want to leave the busywork to somebody else.

He has grown a lot over the story. While I wouldn't say he's a paragon of virtue, I can definitely see him wanting to finish off the last of the baby vampires as sort of a final screw you to thier departed sire. Who he very much disliked. He is also repulsed by vampires on an emotional level after Durkon* ("they're like the trendy juice bars of monsters").

The fact that it is a noble goal may slightly factor in too because he does appear to have become cognizant of the fact that people like heroes more than horrible little murderers.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 09:41 AM

I don't think Serini is buying this. Why should she?

Because it's a remarkably convoluted claim to be presented with while still remaining consistent between multiple presenters with little to no gain to themselves, considering they have already neutralized her.

Sure, they may be lying to get her to disclose the rest of the defenses, but they could just try to figure it out themselves without a needlessly complex plot to ensure her acceptance. And even if she raises that objection, they could respond with the idea that they don't need or want to know the exact location of the Gate because they already are between it and Xykon.

danielxcutter

2022-03-30, 09:43 AM

Because it's a remarkably convoluted claim to be presented with while still remaining consistent between multiple presenters with little to no gain to themselves, considering they have already neutralized her.

Sure, they may be lying to get her to disclose the rest of the defenses, but they could just try to figure it out themselves without a needlessly complex plot to ensure her acceptance. And even if she raises that objection, they could respond with the idea that they don't need or want to know the exact location of the Gate because they already are between it and Xykon.

In short: they're not Nale Tarquinson.

Psyren

2022-03-30, 09:43 AM

I don't think Serini is buying this. Why should she?

Does it matter? If she doesn't, then they knock her out and tuck her into bed, and are no worse off. They have nothing to lose and plenty to gain by trying to convince her, and she should know it.

I'm not sure. Between monstrous equality and the world in the rifts, it seems like there plenty of ground to tread.

Also the IFCC's final gambit for the gate. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)
Also (presumably) Tarquin (hopefully) being taken down by 2-4 side characters, one of whom is a WOC. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0940.html)

The final direction I see her having rhetorical room to maneuver, even if by now it's clearly a retreat into emotion, is that a controlled demolition of the world by the gods would be preferable to them making a rush job of it after the Snarl begins to turn loose and some souls are consigned to oblivion because the lifeboats were launched half full with inconsistent boarding priorities. And I wouldn't mind if she wiggles there, because I think that deepens her character, even if someone else has to persuade her emotionally, rather than logically.

Whether the demolition is "controlled" or "rushed" - every dwarven soul is screwed for eternity either way, so she'd have to be okay with that, aka a monster. The only way to prevent that is helping Roy and Durkon so that this world stays intact.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 09:47 AM

Honestly, I thought Durkon did a crap job of persuading RC. I feel he would have done better to stress how much leverage TDO has due to possibly containing the Snarl, which should (if believed, which is admittedly a sticking point) make him more interested in opening negotiations. More importantly, it means that TDO has something to lose by not doing so. I feel like right now the logic of what TDO knows gives him no reason not to wait for his position to get stronger.
I feel like nothing Durkon could have said would have worked. Redcloak needs to have his actions validated, for them to have been worth it. Telling him that the Dark One always had had a strong negotiating position means telling him he made all these sacrifices for nothing. That's just not something Redcloak is willing to accept I think.

In my opinion, the only way for Redcloak to turn around would be for the plan to fail first. Either because Xykon is defeated or turns against him or because the Dark One rebukes him or openly decides not to help the goblins once he's won.

Also, we just got a count of previous worlds: billions. I don't know if that's been explicitly stated before.
Which accounts for some of the weird worlds - the gods must be profoundly bored by now.
Which also means that if they decide this one is boring, they may deep six it and recreate, which means they need the Dark One to survive this cycle.

We already knew that. Durkon says it here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html). And more to the point, this isn't mist, there are just so many markers they fade in the background. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html)

danielxcutter

2022-03-30, 09:47 AM

Does it matter? If she doesn't, then they knock her out and tuck her into bed, and are no worse off. They have nothing to lose and plenty to gain by trying to convince her, and she should know it.

I mean they are a bit worse because they've lost an opportunity to attack Team Evil unawares, but yeah they're not losing anything more by trying to convince her,

Also the IFCC's final gambit for the gate. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)
Also (presumably) Tarquin (hopefully) being taken down by 2-4 side characters, one of whom is a WOC. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0940.html)

Personally I find I prefer the idea of that happening in a Western Continent side book, but that'd be nice too.

Whether the demolition is "controlled" or "rushed" - every dwarven soul is screwed for eternity either way, so she'd have to be okay with that, aka a monster. The only way to prevent that is helping Roy and Durkon so that this world stays intact.

Yup, that'd be the nail in the coffin either way.

Doug Lampert

2022-03-30, 09:47 AM

“Deeply stupid cul de sacs” really tickled me.

It also describes just about every campaign I’ve played in.

I resemble that remark

I wouldn't say Redcloak's issue was paranoia honestly - and not just because a lot of beings really do have it out for him and his patron.

Serini's problem is her terror of X.
RC's problem is his deep seated sunk cost falacy.

Because it's a remarkably convoluted claim to be presented with while still remaining consistent between multiple presenters with little to no gain to themselves, considering they have already neutralized her.

Sure, they may be lying to get her to disclose the rest of the defenses, but they could just try to figure it out themselves without a needlessly complex plot to ensure her acceptance. And even if she raises that objection, they could respond with the idea that they don't need or want to know the exact location of the Gate because they already are between it and Xykon.

Yeah, this is actually one of the more persuasive sets of arguments that the Order has ever given, it beats the heck out of "maybe if you had some crayons" to the Mechane's crew.

Dragonus45

2022-03-30, 09:49 AM

I never fail to be astounded by the sheer intense callous heartlessness of Serini's position on all this.

danielxcutter

2022-03-30, 09:50 AM

I never fail to be astounded by the sheer intense callous heartlessness of Serini's position on all this.

Eh, I may vehemently disagree with her on some points but I don't think I've accused her of that.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 09:56 AM

I never fail to be astounded by the sheer intense callous heartlessness of Serini's position on all this.

What do you mean?

HalfTangible

2022-03-30, 09:57 AM

I was expecting/hoping for Roy to go off on one of his classic tirades... but this actually works better. Our ragtag misfits have come a long way.

I do think this will convince Serini... but I think if it convinced her unconditionally we would've seen it already. I'm expecting her to agree to work with them under a few conditions that she specifically chooses to keep the Gate safe. (first among them being that they don't do their ambush plan because it would reveal the door trick.)

That or she's going to be the damned fool and/or ask why they didn't let the gods destroy everything so that at the very least everyone's souls would survive. (ie prevent what happened to Kraagor; I doubt living in a guy's tomb lets you forget about him)

(Also I was half expecting Belkar's contraction of real estate markets to mean that Serini's hometown would be blown to bits)

Shining Wrath

2022-03-30, 09:58 AM

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 10:04 AM

He spent a long time hating a vampire and I would not be surprised if he has transfered that hate to any who are in league with said vampire.

Edit: It is also important so that a) the world survives and b) Durkon (and family) not getting damned to Hel.

He has grown a lot over the story. While I wouldn't say he's a paragon of virtue, I can definitely see him wanting to finish off the last of the baby vampires as sort of a final screw you to thier departed sire. Who he very much disliked. He is also repulsed by vampires on an emotional level after Durkon* ("they're like the trendy juice bars of monsters").

The fact that it is a noble goal may slightly factor in too because he does appear to have become cognizant of the fact that people like heroes more than horrible little murderers.
While all that makes sense, he's not usually that focused.

I'm not saying it's out-of-character, just not what I expected from the impulsive little killer.

Windscion

2022-03-30, 10:04 AM

I feel like nothing Durkon could have said would have worked. Redcloak needs to have his actions validated, for them to have been worth it. Telling him that the Dark One always had had a strong negotiating position means telling him he made all these sacrifices for nothing. That's just not something Redcloak is willing to accept I think.

In my opinion, the only way for Redcloak to turn around would be for the plan to fail first. Either because Xykon is defeated or turns against him or because the Dark One rebukes him or openly decides not to help the goblins once he's won.

Yes, I agree that it is much easier to see RC bargaining in earnest if Xykon is down. I seriously doubt anyone thinks otherwise.

But please don't blame Durkon for not knowing about Redcloak's hangups. While RC is more of a hurdle than the Order realize, ultimately it comes down to what TDO believes. Which raises an interesting question. If TDO gives RC orders that conflict with RC's hangups, won't the fireworks be interesting to watch? From a safe distance, I mean.

Psyren

2022-03-30, 10:06 AM

I mean they are a bit worse because they've lost an opportunity to attack Team Evil unawares, but yeah they're not losing anything more by trying to convince her,

Even that would be better now, if they have an at-will antimagic cone with them they can activate and deactivate verbally.

Personally I find I prefer the idea of that happening in a Western Continent side book, but that'd be nice too.

It does seem more of a denouement thing, and/or having him get beaten off-screen like a pleb would certainly be a finger in his eye :smallbiggrin:

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 10:08 AM

But please don't blame Durkon for not knowing about Redcloak's hangups.

Err... I didn't?

Peelee

2022-03-30, 10:11 AM

I never fail to be astounded by the sheer intense callous heartlessness of Serini's position on all this.

I don't see it as much different from Dr. Ian Malcolm's position:

"You egomaniacal idiot," Malcolm said, in fury. "Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You think you can destroy the planet? My, what intoxicating power you must have." Malcolm sank back on the bed. "You can't destroy this planet. You can't even come close."

"Most people believe," Hammond said stiffly, "that the planet is in jeopardy."

“Well, it’s not,” Malcolm said.

“All the experts agree that our planet is in trouble.”

Malcolm sighed. “Let me tell you about our planet,” he said. “Our planet is four and a half billion years old. There has been life on this planet for nearly that long. Three point eight billion years. The first bacteria. And, later, the first multicellular animals, then the first complex creatures, in the sea, on the land. Then the great sweeping ages of animals—the amphibians, the dinosaurs, the mammals, each lasting millions upon millions of years. Great dynasties of creatures arising, flourishing, dying away. All this happening against a background of continuous and violent upheaval, mountain ranges thrust up and eroded away, cometary impacts, volcanic eruptions, oceans rising and falling, whole continents moving… Endless constant and violent change… Even today, the greatest geographical feature on the planet comes from two great continents colliding, buckling to make the Himalayan mountain range over millions of years. The planet has survived everything, in its time. It will certainly survive us.”

Hammond frowned. “Just because it lasted a long time,” he said, “doesn’t mean it’s permanent. If there was a radiation accident…”

“Suppose there was,” Malcolm said. “Let’s say we had a bad one, and all the plants and animals died, and the earth was clicking hot for a hundred thousand years. Life would survive somewhere—under the soil, or perhaps frozen in the Arctic ice. And after all those years, when the planet was no longer inhospitable, life would spread again over the planet. The evolutionary process would begin again. It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety. And of course, it would be very different from what it is now. But the earth would survive our folly. Only we, the humans, think it wouldn’t.”

Psyren

2022-03-30, 10:15 AM

(Also I was half expecting Belkar's contraction of real estate markets to mean that Serini's hometown would be blown to bits)

Well I mean, it kinda does mean that. (And every other hometown ever)

Duncun

2022-03-30, 10:15 AM

I think they laid out the issue pretty well for an opening argument. Not perfect. Now we will just have to wait and see what Serini's response and rebuttable is.

Marsala

2022-03-30, 10:25 AM

I feel like nothing Durkon could have said would have worked. Redcloak needs to have his actions validated, for them to have been worth it. Telling him that the Dark One always had had a strong negotiating position means telling him he made all these sacrifices for nothing. That's just not something Redcloak is willing to accept I think.

There's actually another way for Redcloak to feel that it was all worth it. The peaceful option requires Redcloak to have a Level 9 spell slot, which he only achieved through his many years of persistence alongside Xykon. Also Gobbotopia now exists. Redcloak can argue to himself that everything he did was necessary (even though it probably wasn't the best or only way) for him to be in the position of saving the goblins and the world. However, he's not there yet, and Durkon didn't think to argue from that angle.

HalfTangible

2022-03-30, 10:39 AM

One interesting little tidbit re:Redcloak is

that his rise is very similar to TDO. He lead an army to conquer a new nation for goblinkind, the people love him and know him only by titles (Redcloak and/or Supreme Leader). And we don't really know how, exactly, TDO rose up in his pantheon of one in the first place.

We also know Xykon has MitD hypnotized to eat Redcloak and spit out "the amulet he wears" if he ever betrays Xykon. Which would be one of the last little puzzle pieces to TDO's ascension, was it not? ... No decades-long slaughter, of course, but this time he doesn't need to ascend alone.

Not suggesting Redcloak will end up in a fifth pantheon... just pointing out that maybe there'll be a second purple crayon in the box. It would give the sacrifices of his people meaning, perhaps, if they rose up a god who would be able and perhaps even willing to negotiate directly with Thor or whoever else.

Well I mean, it kinda does mean that. (And every other hometown ever)

You're right, but you know what i meant :smalltongue:

2.5 cats

2022-03-30, 10:39 AM

I don't think Serini is buying this. Why should she?

The paladin Lien being genuinely shocked may make the difference.

HalfTangible

2022-03-30, 10:45 AM

Also (leaving aside Serini could be rolling Sense Motive against Roy, Lien, and Belkar) if the Order were going to try and bluff her they'd get Haley to do it. The person with the actually good bluff score.

Yeah Serini doesn't know their sheets but she did just witness Haley bluffing and doing a pretty decent job of it.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 10:50 AM

And we don't really know how, exactly, TDO rose up in his pantheon of one in the first place.

Well, The Dark One is the least powerful god in his pantheon, so...

Snails

2022-03-30, 10:50 AM

I think Serini's goal is preserving the world from destruction, which is not heartless. She just lacks information - for example, she still doesn't know what happens to the dwarves if the world is destroyed.

That is a side issue. Serini had already gone all in on saving the world, and accepting a very signifiant degree of suffering under Team Evil's rule. The possible twisted fate of dwarfkind is just further validation for her blinkered view.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 10:53 AM

hroþila

2022-03-30, 11:02 AM

Well, The Dark One is the least powerful god in his pantheon, so...
Despite having by far the largest church. You'd think the author would care a bit more about consistency.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 11:05 AM

Despite having by far the largest church. You'd think the author would care a bit more about consistency.

Especially since he's also dead average on the number of of worshipers.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 11:07 AM

Although I could see Serini believing the Order and deciding that the 'villains in charge' are the gods and that they need to be taken out otherwise no one will ever be truely safe - if she does decide that then I could actually see her joining Xykon's side.

Larsaan

2022-03-30, 11:26 AM

Well, that's confirmation that Serini was fine with letting Xykon win, at least. On the other hand, it seems I was pretty off base in saying she's entirely driven by trauma. She at least made a level-headed and seemingly quite earnest argument here.

The next page will be the telling one, though.

bunsen_h

2022-03-30, 11:28 AM

For some reason, seeing the back view of Roy's clenched fist in panel 9 grabs my attention. The duck's-foot shape is so different from the simple circle that we'd seen a couple of art upgrades ago!

I don't see it as much different from Dr. Ian Malcolm's position:

“Suppose there was,” Malcolm said. “Let’s say we had a bad one, and all the plants and animals died, and the earth was clicking hot for a hundred thousand years. Life would survive somewhere—under the soil, or perhaps frozen in the Arctic ice. And after all those years, when the planet was no longer inhospitable, life would spread again over the planet. The evolutionary process would begin again. It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety. And of course, it would be very different from what it is now. But the earth would survive our folly. Only we, the humans, think it wouldn’t.”

Malcolm is not entirely correct on this point. The sun is slowly becoming hotter (https://usm.maine.edu/planet/sun-getting-hotter-if-so-why-will-earth-eventually-become-too-hot-life), and as a result, it's estimated that in a little over a billion years, the Earth will no longer be able to support life.

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-30, 11:30 AM

So now, finally, Serini knows what's up. Hoping for at least some sense from her from here on out. I'd rather have seen her reaction in this strip. Ten panels of material that we have already seen on screen rehashed yet again, and a nice closing panel. It got a grin out of me. Another joke well delivered. :smallsmile:

Serini's problem is her terror of X.
RC's problem is his deep seated sunk cost falacy. Marriage made in Heaven. The first dance at the reception will be a slow waltz with Kermit the Frog singing "It Ain't Easy Being Green" from on stage.

She just lacks information - for example, she still doesn't know what happens to the dwarves if the world is destroyed. Nor does she care. To her, the dwarves are likely 'the status quo' which she doesn't appear to believe is worth defending.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 11:33 AM

Malcolm is not entirely correct on this point. The sun is slowly becoming hotter (https://usm.maine.edu/planet/sun-getting-hotter-if-so-why-will-earth-eventually-become-too-hot-life), and as a result, it's estimated that in a little over a billion years, the Earth will no longer be able to support life.

Eh, Malcolm isn't saying the world will go on forever. He's saying we always aay "we're going to destroy the world" when we mean "werre going to destroy ourselves".

“No, my point is that life on earth can take care of itself. In the thinking of a human being, a hundred years is a long time. A hundred years ago, we didn’t have cars, and airplanes, and computers and vaccines… It was a whole different world. But to the earth, a hundred years is nothing. A million years is nothing. The planet lives and breathes on a much vaster scale. We can’t imagine its slow and powerful rhythms, and we haven’t got the humility to try. We have been residents here for the blink of an eye. If we are gone tomorrow, the earth will not miss us.”

“And we very well might be gone,” Hammond said, huffing.

“Yes,” Malcolm said. “We might.”

“So what are you saying? We shouldn’t care about the environment?”

“No, of course not.”

“Then what?”

Malcolm coughed, and stared into the distance. “Let’s be clear. The planet is not in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven’t got the power to destroy the planet—or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves.”

The billion years is the earth's time scale. I think Malcolm would be perfectly fine accepting that.

Well, that's confirmation that Serini was fine with letting Xykon win, at least.

I still don't see how "is willing to accept the less bad of the two options she knows of" equates to "is fine with it".

If someone said I would either be punched in the face or stabbed in the gut and I could pick, id pick the punch. I would most certainly not be fine with being punched.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 11:42 AM

Nor does she care. To her, the dwarves are likely 'the status quo'
https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/0x0/2/9/0d3d8006e768b36fedf0b2d79df32ea59c7573affe5c107062 59faa0096db1/Citation-Needed.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Fgrowtraffic.com%2Fblog% 2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F01%2FCitation-Needed.jpg&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

EDIT:

If someone said I would either be lunched in the face

That is the simplest way to have lunch.

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 11:56 AM

Eh, Malcolm isn't saying the world will go on forever. He's saying we always aay "we're going to destroy the world" when we mean "werre going to destroy ourselves".

The billion years is the earth's time scale. I think Malcolm would be perfectly fine accepting that.

He'd probably also say "we are amazingly arrogant about being able to define what constitutes "unable to support life"" - going by his speech about oxygen.

“You think this is the first time such a thing has happened? Don’t you know about oxygen?”
“I know it’s necessary for life.”
“It is now,” Malcolm said. “But oxygen is actually a metabolic poison. It’s a corrosive gas, like fluorine, which is used to etch glass. And when oxygen was first produced as a waste product by certain plant cells—say, around three billion years ago—it created a crisis for all other life on our planet. Those plant cells were polluting the environment with a deadly poison. They were exhaling a lethal gas, and building up its concentration. A planet like Venus has less than one percent oxygen. On earth, the concentration of oxygen was going up rapidly—five, ten, eventually twenty-one percent! Earth had an atmosphere of pure poison! Incompatible with life!”

Peelee

2022-03-30, 12:01 PM

He'd probably also say "we are amazingly arrogant about being able to define what constitutes "unable to support life"" - going by his speech about oxygen.

Maybe, but not having any sources of non-oxygen life would hamper him a bit. He was insufferable arrogant but I do agree with him for the most part in that tirade, even if I think some parts of it were just to be contrary to Hammond (like the oxygen bit, for example :smallamused:).

Doug Lampert

2022-03-30, 12:04 PM

Maybe, but not having any sources of non-oxygen life would hamper him a bit.

Eh, there's still plenty of anaerobic life on Earth. Anaerobic bacteria were observed by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek by 1680, which was prior to anyone knowing what oxygen even is.

HalfTangible

2022-03-30, 12:05 PM

It's all in crayon and thus not certain, but I have no reason to doubt the year of slaughter did it for him.

It's certainly possible (and I do think it was part of it) but we don't know exactly how or why TDO ascended into his own pantheon; could be anything. Might've just been people dying in his name (a massive amount of Dedication, sounds like)

And even if that were not the case, Redcloak could still get TDO's help ascending, like the Elven gods or northern demigods did for their own pantheons; or you could argue that the slaughter to form Gobbotopia helped.

Or hell, maybe TDO will appear to the goblinoids when Redcloak dies and say "oi you lot supreme leader's dead, go kill some humies"

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 12:10 PM

It's certainly possible (and I do think it was part of it) but we don't know exactly how or why TDO ascended into his own pantheon

Because he wasn't sponsored ; the goblins, having been forsaken by Fenrir-wolf, had no attachment to any particular pantheon ; and he carried a grudge against them all, but had enough godly juice to ascend on his own.

This, to me, honestly sounds like enough reasons given for the comic not to ever explain it further.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 12:10 PM

It's certainly possible (and I do think it was part of it) but we don't know exactly how or why TDO ascended into his own pantheon; could be anything. Might've just been people dying in his name (a massive amount of Dedication, sounds like)

And even if that were not the case, Redcloak could still get TDO's help ascending, like the Elven gods or northern demigods did for their own pantheons; or you could argue that the slaughter to form Gobbotopia helped.

Or hell, maybe TDO will appear to the goblinoids when Redcloak dies and say "oi you lot supreme leader's dead, go kill some humies"
Oh my bad, I misunderstood. Yeah, you got me there.

Snails

2022-03-30, 12:13 PM

Eh, there's still plenty of anaerobic life on Earth. Anaerobic bacteria were observed by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek by 1680, which was prior to anyone knowing what oxygen even is.

Yup. We, oxygen-breathing mammals, are just not used to noticing the anaerobic world, unless it intrudes into our canned goods. There could plausibly be more anaerobic life on earth by weight than aerobic, if we tallied all the little beasties hiding in underground rocks safely away from that toxic oxygen us overworlders live in.

Alex Warlorn

2022-03-30, 12:27 PM

Peelee

2022-03-30, 12:33 PM

I notice how Roy conveniently leaves out that if the Snarl gets loose, all their souls get eaten, and everyone being evacuated to the afterlife is about the only SANE solution if Redcloak thinks the eldritch horror of chaos will behave HOW HE PREDICTS it'll behave if he opens its cage!

Redcloak won't open the cage. The Dark One plans to use the threat of opening the cage on a specific plane to get what he wants. Only TDO could open the cage, and it'd probably react exactly as he predicts, going by what the author has said about it.

bunsen_h

2022-03-30, 12:38 PM

The billion years is the earth's time scale. I think Malcolm would be perfectly fine accepting that.

To be clear: I was quibbling over the "It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety." If all life was wiped out apart from samples of simple organisms preserved in ice, etc., the planet wouldn't have "a few billion years" left for life to regain its present variety. There would be life, but it would never again reach its current diversity.

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 12:38 PM

I notice how Roy conveniently leaves out that if the Snarl gets loose, all their souls get eaten

He probably figures she already knows that and he doesn't need to reiterate it (since Shojo told him, Shojo got it from Soon, and Soon was part of her party):

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 12:39 PM

Redcloak won't open the cage. The Dark One plans to use the threat of opening the cage on a specific plane to get what he wants. Only TDO could open the cage, and it'd probably react exactly as he predicts, going by what the author has said about it.

If Xykon gets knocked out then Redcloak has a few options (some of them might be as follows):
1. Go against The Plan of the God he worships (and who doesn't talk to him) and give away that god's power to enemy deities.
2. Find a new arcane caster and continue the plan.
3. Destroy the gate so allow the plans backup to kick in and give The Dark One a say in the next world.

2 or 3 seem a safer bet then 1, and with only one gate left 3 may be more likely then 2 - as things stand.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 12:40 PM

To be clear: I was quibbling over the "It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety." If all life was wiped out apart from samples of simple organisms preserved in ice, etc., the planet wouldn't have "a few billion years" left for life to regain its present variety. There would be life, but it would never again reach its current diversity.

Ah. Well, dudes a mathematician and not a biologist, so that might explain things. You have a doctorate, you know that once you get to calculus then unless you're working in the physical sciences, actual numbers don't really come up anymore. :smallwink:

Mike Havran

2022-03-30, 12:43 PM

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 12:45 PM

To be clear: I was quibbling over the "It might take a few billion years for life to regain its present variety." If all life was wiped out apart from samples of simple organisms preserved in ice, etc., the planet wouldn't have "a few billion years" left for life to regain its present variety. There would be life, but it would never again reach its current diversity.

You never know, evolution might produce some very heat-loving forms of life.

bunsen_h

2022-03-30, 12:48 PM

Yup. We, oxygen-breathing mammals, are just not used to noticing the anaerobic world, unless it intrudes into our canned goods.

Botulinum toxin (AKA Botox) is used for a number of "serious" medical purposes as well as purely cosmetic stuff.

bunsen_h

2022-03-30, 01:03 PM

Ah. Well, dudes a mathematician and not a biologist, so that might explain things. You have a doctorate, you know that once you get to calculus then unless you're working in the physical sciences, actual numbers don't really come up anymore. :smallwink:

My wife -- a neurologist -- and I occasionally have light-hearted disagreements regarding the "hard sciences" vs. the "squishy sciences". She particularly likes Jurassic Park because her father is cited in it, by name.

You never know, evolution might produce some very heat-loving forms of life.

A bit more than a billion years is the timeframe cited for the temperature to rise enough to boil the oceans away. So while it's possible for other forms of life to arise, they'd have to have metabolisms that didn't involve liquid water.

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 01:05 PM

Reread the relevant pages of the Godsmoot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) and the discussion with Thor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html).

Nothing that is said there there proves that statement ''Once the Gods learn that Xykon started the Ritual, they will immediately destroy the world'' is true.

Change my mind :smallcool:

Loki's comment about "even if the last rift is opened, we would have 10-15 min time in which to destroy the world" is a hint in that direction, IMO.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 01:08 PM

A bit more than a billion years is the timeframe cited for the temperature to rise enough to boil the oceans away. So while it's possible for other forms of life to arise, they'd have to have metabolisms that didn't involve liquid water.

We could always build a planetary shield over the planet to keep it shaded.

And if we could then something else could evolve and do it also if we all died out.

All in theory.

Psyren

2022-03-30, 01:09 PM

You know what's funny?

That our heroes are actually pulling a wool over Serini's eyes about the Gods.

Reread the relevant pages of the Godsmoot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) and the discussion with Thor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html).

Nothing that is said there there proves that statement ''Once the Gods learn that Xykon started the Ritual, they will immediately destroy the world'' is true.

Change my mind :smallcool:

Loki's comment about "even if the last rift is opened, we would have 10-15 min time in which to destroy the world" is a hint in that direction, IMO.

Adding to hamish's post - even if Team Evil secured the gate right now, the actual ritual takes weeks. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) So regardless of whether the gods can successfully pull the plug before the snarl gets out, pulling the plug before Redcloak executes The Plan is a much safer bet.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 01:13 PM

My wife -- a neurologist -- and I occasionally have light-hearted disagreements regarding the "hard sciences" vs. the "squishy sciences". She particularly likes Jurassic Park because her father is cited in it, by name.

A.) Your FIL is Jack Horner?! I may not remember how many other real-world people were name-dropped in the book.
2.) Isn't neurology also a pretty hard science? Or is this a joke in that she deals in squishy things? I'm like 90% sure that's it but I'm no neurologist.

KorvinStarmast

2022-03-30, 01:18 PM

2. Find a new arcane caster and continue the plan. Vaarsuvius
Not sure how to sell the approach to V, though.

We could always build a planetary shield over the planet to keep it shaded. Crystal Spheres are already within D&D lexicon before 3.x, so Spell-Jammering OoTSworld might work. As I ponder this, I arrive at wouldn't one need to contract out to a deity or a demi god to accomplish that?

Adding to hamish's post - even if Team Evil secured the gate right now, the actual ritual takes weeks. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) So regardless of whether the gods can successfully pull the plug before the snarl gets out, pulling the plug before Redcloak executes The Plan is a much safer bet.If I may be pointlessly pedantic here, rituals (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html).

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 01:18 PM

Adding to hamish's post - even if Team Evil secured the gate right now, the actual ritual takes weeks. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) So regardless of whether the gods can successfully pull the plug before the snarl gets out, pulling the plug before Redcloak executes The Plan is a much safer bet.

Possibly not, based on panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1255.html) and panel 4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=25412671) - replacing the furniture could take weeks also and the Gods cannot start a follow vote to destroy the world prior to the completion of the current vote (seemingly based on the 'No-backsies' rule panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)).

Helping Xykon and Redcloak to remove the threat of the Gate from the mortal plane might be both quicker and easier.

Carl

2022-03-30, 01:19 PM

The bit about the "spherical dork" gave me a smile. Sunny is so very lovable.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 01:20 PM

A bit more than a billion years is the timeframe cited for the temperature to rise enough to boil the oceans away. So while it's possible for other forms of life to arise, they'd have to have metabolisms that didn't involve liquid water.

Sure, but this isn't going to happen overnight is it? I wouldn't be surprised if evolution and natural selection solved that hurdle.

I would be surprised to learn about it, but that's because, you know... dead.

pendell

2022-03-30, 01:30 PM

Okay, diplomacy time. Roy has laid out everything that needed to be said and told Serini the facts as he understands them. All to the good. Now for the next trick: Proving to Serini he is both being truthful and accurate. As I've said repeatedly; she's a rogue. She's not into just believing people's words. How can he prove the truth to her, or at least give her grounds to believe he knows what he's talking about?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Mike Havran

2022-03-30, 01:38 PM

Loki's comment about "even if the last rift is opened, we would have 10-15 min time in which to destroy the world" is a hint in that direction, IMO. Well, completing the ritual does not actually open the rift (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), so this doesn't prove that gods will act before the Ritual is completed. If the comment is related to TDO using the Gate as a weapon, then it makes the weapon much weaker than assumed. But I believe Heimdall Loki was talking about the last gate being destroyed on the Mortal plane.

Adding to hamish's post - even if Team Evil secured the gate right now, the actual ritual takes weeks. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) So regardless of whether the gods can successfully pull the plug before the snarl gets out, pulling the plug before Redcloak executes The Plan is a much safer bet.This also does not give certainty to a claim that the gods will do it.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 01:40 PM

Psyren

2022-03-30, 01:44 PM

Possibly not, based on panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1255.html) and panel 4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=25412671) - replacing the furniture could take weeks also and the Gods cannot start a follow vote to destroy the world prior to the completion of the current vote (seemingly based on the 'No-backsies' rule panel 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html)).

Helping Xykon and Redcloak to remove the threat of the Gate from the mortal plane might be both quicker and easier.

If the gods get antsy enough, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html) that still might go out the window. Heck, all it might take is for a bodyguard to kill their cleric to nullify the associated vote (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html), if they really need to resolve a stalemate in a hurry.

bunsen_h

2022-03-30, 01:47 PM

A.) Your FIL is Jack Horner?! I may not remember how many other real-world people were name-dropped in the book.
2.) Isn't neurology also a pretty hard science? Or is this a joke in that she deals in squishy things? I'm like 90% sure that's it but I'm no neurologist.

A. No, the late Thomas Loy. He was a pioneer in the field of genetic analysis of preserved tissue samples, such as traces of blood on prehistoric weapons. In Jurassic Park, that was extrapolated to the techniques used to resurrect the dinosaurs. I never met him. Though my wife and I have been friends for nearly three decades now, we didn't start our current relationship until some years after Loy's death in 2005.

2. She does behavioural neurology, the field of assessing the functioning of the nervous system (including the brain) based on observable behaviour. While she uses "hard" data such as MRI scans, her preliminary assessment is based on how someone moves, patterns of speech such as repetition of phrases or concepts, facial "droops", and the like. Her area of specialty is cognitive dysfunction, such as Alzheimer's.

But in general, yes, doctor-y stuff is about squishy things. Much more so than chemistry, at least.

Sure, but this isn't going to happen overnight is it? I wouldn't be surprised if evolution and natural selection solved that hurdle.

I would be surprised to learn about it, but that's because, you know... dead.

It's not impossible, but it would take a radical departure from all current and past life on Earth. Everything has been based on liquid water, so far. Even the most extreme thermophiles, which function above the "normal" boiling point of water, do so under high-pressure conditions that cause water to still be liquid.

Mike Havran

2022-03-30, 01:53 PM

If the gods get antsy enough, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html) that still might go out the window. Heck, all it might take is for a bodyguard to kill their cleric to nullify the associated vote (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html), if they really need to resolve a stalemate in a hurry.Won't instructing bodyguard (or, even more elegantly, giving his high priest a vision of commiting seppuku) count as a ''No backsies'' rule violation?

Duncun

2022-03-30, 01:53 PM

If Xykon gets knocked out then Redcloak has a few options (some of them might be as follows):
3. Destroy the gate so allow the plans backup to kick in and give The Dark One a say in the next world.

2 or 3 seem a safer bet then 1, and with only one gate left 3 may be more likely then 2 - as things stand.

TDO does not have enough worshipers to survive till the next world.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html

Mike Havran

2022-03-30, 02:00 PM

TDO does not have enough worshipers to survive till the next world.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.htmlBut does he know it? He never experienced, um, ...worldlessness.

Duncun

2022-03-30, 02:01 PM

But does he know it? He never experienced, um, ...worldlessness.

That's a good point. RC probably does not know that.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 02:09 PM

TDO does not have enough worshipers to survive till the next world.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html

'Might not' is not 'will not' and The Dark One might not know any of that as mentioned, and even if he does he doesn't communicate with Redcloak so Redcloak wouldn't know and when Redcloak was told he just assumed it was a convenient lie (panel 4+5 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html)).

Psyren

2022-03-30, 02:11 PM

Won't instructing bodyguard (or, even more elegantly, giving his high priest a vision of commiting seppuku) count as a ''No backsies'' rule violation?

No idea. But Veldrina doesn't contradict Roy's claim that the gods might get antsy and deteriorate the situation, which sounds like the rules are not completely airtight (i.e. such deterioration is not impossible.)

Baelzar

2022-03-30, 02:15 PM

I don't see it as much different from Dr. Ian Malcolm's position: (snip Malcom vs. Hammond)
Except the gods could make certain there is zero life left anywhere.

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 02:20 PM

'Might not' is not 'will not'

Add in, further down the page "The Dark One won't have the stores of energy necessary to persist through that gap" and "I've seen new gods with more worshippers than he has fail to make it"

Peelee

2022-03-30, 02:21 PM

Except the gods could make certain there is zero life left anywhere.

Sure, but she didn't know that yet and had no reason to suspect it.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 02:27 PM

Add in, further down the page "The Dark One won't have the stores of energy necessary to persist through that gap" and "I've seen new gods with more worshippers than he has fail to make it"

That doesn't change that 'might not' is not 'will not' - if we assume that Thor knows what he is talking and is honest then he knows that the Dark one might survive, this actually makes sense as Thor has never encountered a new pantheon outside of the intial four before - without sharing worship between members of a pantheon could the Dark One have more of a chance Thor (and us) doesn't know, did Thor have more of a eye on the previous gods (either directly or via allies) likely yes where none of his allies can monitor the Dark One's stores of power in this world (which the Dark One might be saving more then other new Gods) etc.

Ultimately assuming Thor is being honest he has reasons to believe that the Dark One will not make it but he is not certain.

Psyren

2022-03-30, 02:36 PM

That's a good point. RC probably does not know that.

He does know that (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html), or at least he's been very explicitly told. Believing it is a different matter of course, but that comes down to Redcloak's ego rather than ignorance.

That doesn't change that 'might not' is not 'will not' - if we assume that Thor knows what he is talking and is honest then he knows that the Dark one might survive, this actually makes sense as Thor has never encountered a new pantheon outside of the intial four before - without sharing worship between members of a pantheon could the Dark One have more of a chance Thor (and us) doesn't know, did Thor have more of a eye on the previous gods (either directly or via allies) likely yes where none of his allies can monitor the Dark One's stores of power in this world (which the Dark One might be saving more then other new Gods) etc.

Ultimately assuming Thor is being honest he has reasons to believe that the Dark One will not make it but he is not certain.

You do realize every single one of those other markers ("millions! Mebbe billions!") (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html) was without a new color? These are not odds you gamble with. Risking the Dark One's starvation is simply not a viable option, never mind the fact that doing so would mean (a) the genocide of everyone on the current planet and (b) the condemnation of all dwarves to eternal suffering.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 02:46 PM

You do realize every single one of those other markers ("millions! Mebbe billions!") (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html) was without a new color? These are not odds you gamble with. Risking the Dark One's starvation is simply not a viable option, never mind the fact that doing so would mean (a) the genocide of everyone on the current planet and (b) the condemnation of all dwarves to eternal suffering.

I would imagine that if the Gods decide to destroy the world they would do so at this point by breaking the gate with a bolt of lightning or whatever - they Snarl can get out and unmake everyone, the Dark One might starve, Hel might starve, the Dwarves don't suffer.
They would possible remove from the multiverse of two of the most powerful forces of Evil to ever exist for the low low cost of around a billionth of the souls that ever existed - that seems like solid calculus for the forces of Good to apply.

Psyren

2022-03-30, 02:50 PM

I would imagine that if the Gods decide to destroy the world they would do so at this point by breaking the gate with a bolt of lightning or whatever - they Snarl can get out and unmake everyone, the Dark One might starve, Hel might starve, the Dwarves don't suffer.

That would require all the rest of them to forfeit their followers' souls to the Snarl too. There's no way they all consider keeping the Dwarves out of Hel's hands enough reason to let the Snarl do the job, even if only Hel and TDO are at risk of starvation.

They would possible remove from the multiverse of two of the most powerful forces of Evil to ever exist for the low low cost of around a billionth of the souls that ever existed - that seems like solid calculus for the forces of Good to apply.

The Good gods are in the minority. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html) Even if all of them demanded that the rest stand down and let the Snarl eat the planet, the rest might simply overrule them so as to collect their "chips."

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 02:52 PM

And there are a lot of 'demigods' that might be in danger of starvation too. Plus the elven gods may qualify as well.

Mike Havran

2022-03-30, 03:00 PM

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 03:03 PM

They would possible remove from the multiverse of two of the most powerful forces of Evil to ever exist for the low low cost of around a billionth of the souls that ever existed - that seems like solid calculus for the forces of Good to apply.

Not in the context of BOVD or BOED, where "destroying souls" is one of the vilest acts possible.

"Deliberately releasing a creature they know will destroy souls" is IMO equivalent to doing so themselves - no different from "setting loose a killer animal" or "breaking a vial full of killer germs".

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 03:05 PM

That would require all the rest of them to forfeit their followers' souls to the Snarl too. There's no way they all consider keeping the Dwarves out of Hel's hands enough reason to let the Snarl do the job, even if only Hel and TDO are at risk of starvation.

The Snarl has destroyed worlds before rather then the Gods destroying them - we don't know how often that might have been delibrate, Nergal might be happy to see Hel gone so he has one less rival for how the undead operate - we just don't know the though patterns involved.

The Good gods are in the minority. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html) Even if all of them demanded that the rest stand down and let the Snarl eat the planet, the rest might simply overrule them so as to collect their "chips."
Neutral and Evil gods might be happy to watch two trouble makers starve to death - neither is a big happy family after all, and losing some chips to remove another player might be worth doing.

And there are a lot of 'demigods' that might be in danger of starvation too. Plus the elven gods may qualify as well.
Many of whom are Hel's allies and one of whom keeps holding meetings up - some in the various pantheons might be happy to see the back of them, if they are at risk at all.

You forgot to add to the calculus the value of throwing away the sole opportunity to tip the scales against their sole enemy (Snarl)
Doesn't matter as this is about how the gods would in theory destroy the world (so likely after the talk it out plan has failed) - but even if it did many gods don't care (the west don't think the Dark One exists and many in the north don't like him seemingly).

Not in the context of BOVD or BOED, where "destroying souls" is one of the vilest acts possible.

"Deliberately releasing a creature they know will destroy souls" is IMO equivalent to doing so themselves - no different from "setting loose a killer animal" or "breaking a vial full of killer germs".
I do agree that the forces of Good might simply not be willing to do the calculus alright - although I think if Roy Greenhilt found an opportunity to push Xykon into the Snarl he would take it vilest act possible or not (in his fantasy he did seem to throw in the phylactery into a rift), so good people (assuming you accept that Roy is good) can make the hard choices at times.

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 03:19 PM

(in his fantasy he did seem to throw in the phylactery into a rift)

Looked like regular lava to me:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html

Presumably (since the soul isn't the phylactery itself - it just moves to the phylactery till the body begins to regenerate) the soul would go on to the Lower Planes once the phylactery's destroyed with no partially regenerated body for the soul to move back to.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 03:26 PM

Looked like regular lava to me:

It could be but that is not how I see it (it could be a lot of things including water I suppose), just with the entire purple affect I think it is supposed to be the Snarl, if it was meant to be red, orange, flaming etc then the other panels in that scene are a lot less purple.

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 03:31 PM

I don't see purple - I see maroon sky, same shade as the evening sky over the desert at the end of Blood Runs in the Family, and bright yellow and red lava.

Haley's already seen the rift above Azure City, and it looked nothing like that. It was also vertical, not horizontal.

elros

2022-03-30, 03:34 PM

I see what Rich is doing.. he's showing us what could have happened if Roy got to try and convince Redcloak.
We debating the issues for months on forums, so this may go a while.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 03:44 PM

I see maroon sky, same shade as the evening sky over the desert at the end of Blood Runs in the Family,
We agree on this.

and bright yellow and red lava.
I am not seeing this at all.
I see a white with light purple/pink lines in it, and progressively darker purplish colours coming out of it - then mountains in the background and the sky above, taking a look at the book I am still seeing that.

We might just see colours differently - as such I doubt either of us is going to convince the other, I think it is meant to be a rift and you don't.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 03:48 PM

We debating the issues for months on forums, so this may go a while.

Eh, it's a lot more efficient when you can write the other side's part as well. :smallwink:

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 03:50 PM

Compare panel 3 in the spiral, where "imaginary Roy drops the phylactery"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html

to this panel of a Rift:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html

They are nothing alike.

Whereas lava:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html

looks very like that Panel 3, allowing for the purple tint from Illusion Magic, and the improvement in artistic detail.

Redcloak's actual colour in normal light conditions:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html

compared to panel 2 of the Illusion strips, should show just how much the colour is distorted.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 03:58 PM

... looks very like that Panel 3, allowing for the purple tint from Illusion Magic, and the improvement in artistic detail.

I just don't see it - Haley has orange hair in that panel so if the Giant wanted to make it orange he could have make it orange, you might be right of course unless the Giant feels like clarifing then we will never know for sure.

My assumption is it is Dorukan's Gate and it is a hole in the ground as it was the bottom of a dungeon rather than at where the top of a castle used to be.

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 03:59 PM

Redcloak's actual colour in normal light conditions:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html

compared to panel 2 of the Illusion strips, should show just how much the colour is distorted.

My assumption is it is Dorukan's Gate and it is a hole in the ground as it was the bottom of a dungeon rather than at where the top of a castle used to be.

Whyever would Roy fantasise about taking Xykon's phylactery thousands of miles away? Makes more sense to me that he's fantasising about taking the phylactery to the nearest volcano on the Western continent, instead.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 03:59 PM

Compare panel 3 in the spiral, where "imaginary Roy drops the phylactery"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html

IMO that's about the clearest depiction of lava I could think of in that style with that color tint.

hamishspence

2022-03-30, 04:06 PM

IMO that's about the clearest depiction of lava I could think of in that style with that color tint.

Yup - the pale stuff is almost exactly the same shade as Elan's hair in the same strip, and the dark stuff almost exactly the same shade as Haley's.

Psyren

2022-03-30, 04:06 PM

The Snarl has destroyed worlds before rather then the Gods destroying them - we don't know how often that might have been delibrate, Nergal might be happy to see Hel gone so he has one less rival for how the undead operate - we just don't know the though patterns involved.
...
Neutral and Evil gods might be happy to watch two trouble makers starve to death - neither is a big happy family after all, and losing some chips to remove another player might be worth doing.

The one thing we know they all care about are souls. You'd have to prove that the majority value Odin leading the North Pantheon so highly that they will sacrifice an entire world's worth of theirs willingly just to keep Hel from supplanting him in the next world. Not even all the good Northern gods may want that.

And since there's no way in Hel (natch) that's happening, it's a moot point anyway.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 04:09 PM

Also, of course they're tossing the evil artefact that's keeping the evil sorcerer-lord form death into a volcano to destroy it. That's just good form.

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 04:13 PM

Whyever would Roy fantasise about taking Xykon's phylactery thousands of miles away? Makes more sense to me that he's fantasising about taking the phylactery to the nearest volcano on the Western continent, instead.

Book ends, the place he first defeated Xykon, Elan feels it is appropraite etc.
It would make sense to me that he has fantasised about how things would have been different if he had only finished off Xykon initially - but yea it would not be a logical choice for him, just Redmountain Hills with some red(ish) mountains made me think of it after I had decided it was the rift (back around whenever the comic came out).

Peelee

2022-03-30, 04:14 PM

Yup - the pale stuff is almost exactly the same shade as Elan's hair in the same strip, and the dark stuff almost exactly the same shade as Haley's.

And frankly, having them be slightly brighter (as far as I can tell) seems to indicate a glow, as one would expect from molten rock.

Mike Havran

2022-03-30, 04:26 PM

The one thing we know they all care about are souls. You'd have to prove that the majority value Odin leading the North Pantheon so highly that they will sacrifice an entire world's worth of theirs willingly just to keep Hel from supplanting him in the next world. Not even all the good Northern gods may want that.

And since there's no way in Hel (natch) that's happening, it's a moot point anyway.Yep. I can imagine a fanatical god so much devoted to the universal idea of Good that would gladly starve for a chance that a force of Evil perishes, but majority of gods will be far more pragmatic. Especially since they are kind of a crew that have worked together for a long time.

Thermophille

2022-03-30, 05:04 PM

Also, of course they're tossing the evil artefact that's keeping the evil sorcerer-lord form death into a volcano to destroy it. That's just good form.

I was gonna reply that there's no way his phylactery is susceptible to lava, and then I realized that his regenerating body would be.

gatemansgc

2022-03-30, 05:23 PM

So will she be swayed, or will she move the goalposts? Interesting quandry ahead.

i just love her confused expressions the whole time.

Fyraltari

2022-03-30, 05:41 PM

I was gonna reply that there's no way his phylactery is susceptible to lava, and then I realized that his regenerating body would be.

This is a double fantasy where Elan's parent remarry and Xykon remembers Roy's name. Everything can happen.

HalfTangible

2022-03-30, 05:52 PM

The one thing we know they all care about are souls. You'd have to prove that the majority value Odin leading the North Pantheon so highly that they will sacrifice an entire world's worth of theirs willingly just to keep Hel from supplanting him in the next world. Not even all the good Northern gods may want that.

And since there's no way in Hel (natch) that's happening, it's a moot point anyway.

Eh they don't necessarily have to value Odin being in charge so much as they have to fear Hel being in charge.

Hel's attitude towards the previous world and Loki's bet with her suggests to me that she's always been a cruel and careless goddess, this particular world has just grated on her nerves massively

Worldsong

2022-03-30, 05:58 PM

Ruck

2022-03-30, 06:13 PM

I really love all the reasoned arguments here.

Same. I was very excited to see this strip. We're finally getting to the fireworks factory! (Well, this fireworks factory, anyway.)

A.) Your FIL is Jack Horner?! I may not remember how many other real-world people were name-dropped in the book.

It's Jurassic Park, not Boogie Nights.

Matt620

2022-03-30, 06:25 PM

Serini's short-sighted arrogance and bitterness is actually pretty funny to watch. I'm reminded of a really old Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode that was an alternate reality caused by Cordelia's errant wish. At the very end, Giles is about to restore the world when the demon tries to stop him by stating he can't destroy this reality, because he has no idea if the other reality could be any better. Giles responds that it has to be, and does it.

Serini's like the dark inverse of that: She's so arrogant in thinking she understands the Snarl better than the Gods. But the thought process can't even cross her mind. And of course, she's also low-key racist about humans and other races

dancrilis

2022-03-30, 06:28 PM

i just love her confused expressions the whole time.

She didn't have a confused expression in panel 10 (and perhaps less relevantly 1 to 3).

For panel 10 - I can imagine her thinking up a few other options.

Peelee

2022-03-30, 07:05 PM

It's Jurassic Park, not Boogie Nights.

Jack Horner was mentioned in both the Jurassic Park novel and movie, and also served as the inspiration for Dr. Alan Grant in virtually every possible way. He also worked as consultant on the JP movie series.

I know it was a joke, but do not doubt my Jurassic Park chops. I've accomplished one dream of being in the 501st, but am still too poor to achieve my other dream of being in the Jurassic Park Motor Pool.

Ruck

2022-03-30, 07:19 PM

I just hope someone here has a story about a family member being mentioned in Boogie Nights.

F.Harr

2022-03-30, 09:18 PM

Well, a path is a path. And it's the most obvious one available.

Wowlock

2022-03-30, 09:35 PM

HalfTangible

2022-03-30, 10:54 PM

On whether Serini will believe them, there is a mild advantage here that even if she herself would immediately lie and deceive, and she believes that most others would also lie and deceive, she's traveled long enough with a Lawful Good paladin to know that LG people are disinclined to tell lies because they think it's immoral. And here there's two LG people telling her the same thing, and one of them is also a dwarf so there's the whole honour business.

Of course, this isn't a 100% surefire thing, but I think she'd at least first try to find a line of reasoning where the OotS is wrong but where Roy and Durkon aren't lying.

Well, she does not necessarily know that Roy is LG (fighters do not have the same alignment restrictions Paladins do) and this is news to Lien. She could decide Roy is lying and Lien just believes him cuz he's a well-intentioned good guy.

brian 333

2022-03-30, 11:14 PM

...edit...

It's not impossible, but it would take a radical departure from all current and past life on Earth. Everything has been based on liquid water, so far. Even the most extreme thermophiles, which function above the "normal" boiling point of water, do so under high-pressure conditions that cause water to still be liquid.

I came to the discussion late, but would evolved self replicating nanites that form colonies of specialized units that divide work and share energy, which then replicate these colonies which further evolve such that each colony forms an individual consciousness count as life for Dr.Malcolm's purpose? Temperature and availability of liquid water would be less important to such life, and we may be on the verge of creating the most primitive generation of such a life form now.

Isn't this how DNA based life organized and evolved into forms larger than unicellular plants and animals?

As a side issue: superhot Venus has lots of water, in clouds. Would it not be possible for life to evolve techniques to condense atmospheric water vapor for use in it's cells, and evolve mechanisms to retain and recycle that water?

MADCrab

2022-03-30, 11:37 PM

As best we know, no. Water lets proteins move and interact. Solids just stick together at that scale.

Wraithfighter

2022-03-30, 11:50 PM

Thermophille

2022-03-30, 11:54 PM

It's not impossible, but it would take a radical departure from all current and past life on Earth. Everything has been based on liquid water, so far. Even the most extreme thermophiles, which function above the "normal" boiling point of water, do so under high-pressure conditions that cause water to still be liquid.

Didn't see this on my first readthrough. Just a shoutout to my namesake.

danielxcutter

2022-03-31, 12:29 AM

Yeah, but so did Mister Girard "Thinks A Paladin Would Violate A Sacred Oath" Draketooth, and we saw how that worked for them.

I figure that she's going to be cynical and paranoid about it for a fair bit longer, and it'll take the Order pulling a "fine, you don't want to help, whatever, we've got a world to save" in order to get it through her skull that these aren't low-level chump NPCs that she can ignore, they're the main heroes.

On the other hand, that's Girard. That's a level of self-delusion and paranoia rarely seen even in fiction.

TheNecrocomicon

2022-03-31, 12:51 AM

My main grounds for thinking Serini won't go down the same path as Redcloak or Girard is that it would be narratively repetitive.

Redcloak has his existing flaws around sunk-cost fallacies and raw arrogance and speciesism that, unless his trajectory changes, has him headed for self-induced doom (rather than redemption).

Girard also let his rampant paranoia take up so much real estate in his mind that it led to a critical flaw that doomed his and his family's life work.

Serini has still allowed herself the potential to change, despite being locked into decades of increasingly bitter cynicism. She may or may not fully come out of it, but the signs are there that she'll probably grudgingly allow her mindset to evolve -- such as the fact that she was, by all accounts, probably the most open-minded out of her original party, and continues to be at least with regards to her menagerie of Gate guardians.

hroþila

2022-03-31, 03:56 AM

There was a Godsmoot to discuss the demolition of the world back during the first rift crisis, and it's perfectly possible that the Scribblers knew about it. And according to Shojo, "[the Scribblers] agreed it was best to not let things deteriorate to the point where the gods felt they had no choice but to destroy the world to rebuild the prison". So all of this should sound at least plausible to Serini.

Liquor Box

2022-03-31, 04:43 AM

On whether Serini will believe them, there is a mild advantage here that even if she herself would immediately lie and deceive, and she believes that most others would also lie and deceive, she's traveled long enough with a Lawful Good paladin to know that LG people are disinclined to tell lies because they think it's immoral. And here there's two LG people telling her the same thing, and one of them is also a dwarf so there's the whole honour business.

Of course, this isn't a 100% surefire thing, but I think she'd at least first try to find a line of reasoning where the OotS is wrong but where Roy and Durkon aren't lying.

Aside from whether she will believe them, there's still a question whether it will change her mind. Someone brought it up in a recent thread

Given her pragmatic preference for a world ruled by evil over the destruction of everything, she may prefer the world being destroyed (but the god remaining to build another, and souls still going to the afterlife) over the destruction of everything (including the gods/afterlife/souls). Especially since she seems to think her chances, or the Order's chances, of stopping Xykon are essentially zero.

Fyraltari

2022-03-31, 04:56 AM

And of course, she's also low-key racist about humans and other races

What makes you think that?

hamishspence

2022-03-31, 05:15 AM

What makes you think that?

I'm guessing, from lines like "balloon-headed cloud-scrapers".

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1252.html

elros

2022-03-31, 06:50 AM

I hope that Serini points out that the gods are "knocking over the game board (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)" by destroying the world instead of letting Redcloak and Xykon control the gate. In Panel #9 Roy looks like he is angry at the gods for the same reason, and I see the two of them agreeing enough to work together.
I also really like Serini's point that she can "see things like a troll", because she would probably be the person who could convince Redcloak to abandon the plan.

Fyraltari

2022-03-31, 07:07 AM

I'm guessing, from lines like "balloon-headed cloud-scrapers".

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1252.html

Isn't that just a way to call them dumb? Like "airhead"?

hamishspence

2022-03-31, 07:08 AM

The "cloud-scrapers" bit is a shot at their height.

Fyraltari

2022-03-31, 07:43 AM

The "cloud-scrapers" bit is a shot at their height.

...
I thought it was because they came in an airship. This makes much more sense.

I have a hard time parsing Serini's slang.

dancrilis

2022-03-31, 08:04 AM

Like "airhead"?

Which is seemingly a racial slur (panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)).

Fyraltari

2022-03-31, 08:16 AM

Which is seemingly a racial slur (panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)).

That one is a joke, though, "airhead" is a real-world insult that has nothing to do with ethnicity, but in-universe it does because there are people that come from the plane of Air.

dancrilis

2022-03-31, 08:23 AM

That one is a joke, though, "airhead" is a real-world insult that has nothing to do with ethnicity, but in-universe it does because there are people that come from the plane of Air.

Any insults that Serini has delivered to people due to them not being halflings likely fit into the same general category as jokes - with the extra benefit of not being real world insults (yet/that I know of).

Worldsong

2022-03-31, 09:14 AM

Well, she does not necessarily know that Roy is LG (fighters do not have the same alignment restrictions Paladins do) and this is news to Lien. She could decide Roy is lying and Lien just believes him cuz he's a well-intentioned good guy.

I figured that Serini has been spying on them long enough (I think she admitted to that on an earlier page) that she knows Roy is supposed to be LG.

Also, there'd still be Durkon.

Yeah, but so did Mister Girard "Thinks A Paladin Would Violate A Sacred Oath" Draketooth, and we saw how that worked for them.

I figure that she's going to be cynical and paranoid about it for a fair bit longer, and it'll take the Order pulling a "fine, you don't want to help, whatever, we've got a world to save" in order to get it through her skull that these aren't low-level chump NPCs that she can ignore, they're the main heroes.

On the other hand, that's Girard. That's a level of self-delusion and paranoia rarely seen even in fiction.

Yeah, I'm basically hoping that Serini is not quite as paranoid as Girard is, and I think the odds for that are pretty good because Girard was really far over the edge.

Aside from whether she will believe them, there's still a question whether it will change her mind. Someone brought it up in a recent thread

Given her pragmatic preference for a world ruled by evil over the destruction of everything, she may prefer the world being destroyed (but the god remaining to build another, and souls still going to the afterlife) over the destruction of everything (including the gods/afterlife/souls). Especially since she seems to think her chances, or the Order's chances, of stopping Xykon are essentially zero.

True, it's not like her believing them guarantees that she'll agree with them on the best course of action. Although I think that she'll have a harder time convincing herself that letting the world get destroyed is an acceptable sacrifice.

Peelee

2022-03-31, 09:27 AM

I figured that Serini has been spying on them long enough (I think she admitted to that on an earlier page) that she knows Roy is supposed to be LG.

Also, there'd still be Durkon.

Dwarves are not angels, they can be non-good (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html) just as easily as anyone else.

dancrilis

2022-03-31, 09:27 AM

Yeah, I'm basically hoping that Serini is not quite as paranoid as Girard is, and I think the odds for that are pretty good because Girard was really far over the edge.

It isn't paranoia if they are really out to get you - Soon told a whole load of people about the gates, the knock on affect was that one of the people who found out destroyed Soon's gate, another group of people who found out destroyed Girard's gate and the IFCC found out who are moving forward with a plan that seems to involve destroying the world.

Girard was wrong about why Soon couldn't be trusted but he was right that Soon couldn't be trusted.

Peelee

2022-03-31, 09:48 AM

It isn't paranoia if they are really out to get you

Nobody was out to get Girard, though, except Xykon and Redcloak, and that was not because of Soon.

Fyraltari

2022-03-31, 09:50 AM

Girard was wrong about why Soon couldn't be trusted but he was right that Soon couldn't be trusted.

Girard also told a whole lot of people about the Gates.

dancrilis

2022-03-31, 10:10 AM

Girard also told a whole lot of people about the Gates.

Yes but those people didn't blab about it to the forces of the lower planes, didn't destroy any gates, and didn't break the oaths of non-interference - and while it isn't really relevant also didn't murder a whole load of innocent goblins (all as far as we know).

Girard's trust was warranted as for as we know - Soon's was a lot less so.

Edit:

Nobody was out to get Girard, though, except Xykon and Redcloak, and that was not because of Soon.
I wouldn't put it past the IFCC to have known that the dragon targeting Vaarsuvius's family was connected to the Draketooths and to have known that Haerta had a spell that might be helpful.

Peelee

2022-03-31, 10:19 AM

I wouldn't put it past the IFCC to have known that the dragon targeting Vaarsuvius's family was connected to the Draketooths and to have known that Haerta had a spell that might be helpful.

A.) The same IFCC that was shown, in privacy, to be quite surprised at familicide being used?
2.) so it's still Soon's fault it a third party uses a different third party who contracts yet another third party? With that much stretching you could pull it all the way back around to Girard being at fault if you wanted.

dancrilis

2022-03-31, 10:30 AM

A.) The same IFCC that was shown, in privacy, to be quite surprised at familicide being used?
They seem to play the odds, they might have thought the odds were low - but they then explained that they did think it likely that horrible things would be done.

2.) so it's still Soon's fault it a third party uses a different third party who contracts yet another third party? With that much stretching you could pull it all the way back around to Girard being at fault if you wanted.
Soon told Rhojo/Shojo, Shojo told everyone* - if Shojo had kept his Oath of non-interferance a lot more gates would perhaps be standing and the IFCC would not be up to something with the gates (now maybe it is a good something but that is not the impression I am getting).
*exceptions apply.

Soon trusted the wrong people.

Peelee

2022-03-31, 10:38 AM

They seem to play the odds, they might have thought the odds were low - but they then explained that they did think it likely that horrible things would be done.

Soon told Rhojo/Shojo, Shojo told everyone* - if Shojo had kept his Oath of non-interferance a lot more gates would perhaps be standing and the IFCC would not be up to something with the gates (now maybe it is a good something but that is not the impression I am getting).
*exceptions apply.

Soon trusted the wrong people.

1.) They seemed surprised it happened at all. Not surprised that a low odds bet succeeded.
2.) 99% of "everyone" is the paladins, who were told independently of Shojo until Shojo came to power. The only other ones were the Order, and Nale disguised as the Order, which the Order did not catch.

You can claim its not a massive reach all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

Precure

2022-03-31, 10:39 AM

Whether the demolition is "controlled" or "rushed" - every dwarven soul is screwed for eternity either way, so she'd have to be okay with that, aka a monster. The only way to prevent that is helping Roy and Durkon so that this world stays intact.

Being in Hel is better than their souls being destroyed. It's similar to how she prefers Xykon-controlled world to destruction.

You know what's funny?

That our heroes are actually pulling a wool over Serini's eyes about the Gods.

Reread the relevant pages of the Godsmoot (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) and the discussion with Thor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html).

Nothing that is said there there proves that statement ''Once the Gods learn that Xykon started the Ritual, they will immediately destroy the world'' is true.

Change my mind :smallcool:

I also found it weird. There is nothing supports that Xykon or Redcloak's victory mean anything like "we must destroy the world for sure" for the gods.

Loki's comment about "even if the last rift is opened, we would have 10-15 min time in which to destroy the world" is a hint in that direction, IMO.

He was talking about the snarl freeing themself.

dancrilis

2022-03-31, 10:41 AM

1.) They seemed surprised it happened at all. Not surprised that a low odds bet succeeded.
2.) 99% of "everyone" is the paladins, who were told independently of Shojo until Shojo came to power. The only other ones were the Order, and Nale disguised as the Order, which the Order did not catch.

You can claim its not a massive reach all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

I will admit I am more inclinded to blame Shojo then Soon - but I suspect that Girard would regard that as something of a distinction without a difference, his confidents after all didn't seem to screw up and cause another gate to be interfered with.

Precure

2022-03-31, 10:50 AM

Yeah, it's kinda suspicious that these supposed paladins of good were responsible to and ruled by a hereditay ruler who might be neither lawful nor good. Not to mention most those paladins were Azurite aristocrats until Shojo's reforms.

Fyraltari

2022-03-31, 11:02 AM

Being in Hel is better than their souls being destroyed.
I for one would take cessation of existence over constant torture. Your mileage may vary.

Yeah, it's kinda suspicious that these supposed paladins of good were responsible to and ruled by a hereditay ruler who might be neither lawful nor good.

It's kind of a staple of the "Shining Knight" archetype, really.

bunsen_h

2022-03-31, 11:11 AM

As a side issue: superhot Venus has lots of water, in clouds. Would it not be possible for life to evolve techniques to condense atmospheric water vapor for use in it's cells, and evolve mechanisms to retain and recycle that water?

Venus's clouds consist mostly of droplets of sulfuric acid, not water. I found a recent paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-021-01391-3) about whether the water in those clouds could support life. "Here we compute the water activity within the clouds of Venus and other Solar System planets from observations of temperature and water-vapour abundance. We find water-activity values of sulfuric acid droplets, which constitute the bulk of Venus’s clouds, of ≤0.004, two orders of magnitude below the 0.585 limit for known extremophiles."

Trying to get water out of sulfuric acid is hard. The attraction between them is very strong. The classic rule about "never add water to acid, always mix them by adding the acid to the water" comes mostly out of what happens with sulfuric acid, though some other acids are also problematic. Mixing concentrated sulfuric acid with water releases a lot of heat. If water is added to concentrated sulfuric aid, the heat can cause the water globules inside the acid to boil, spraying droplets of hot acid all over the place. If concentrated sulfuric acid is added to water, the heat is more easily absorbed by the bulk of the water. There isn't localized boiling because the boiling point of sulfuric acid is much higher than that of water.

For an organism to condense water vapour in an environment above the local boiling point, it would have to either:
1. extract heat and release it to the environment, to keep itself cool enough for liquid water, or
2. maintain an internal pressure high enough to keep the water liquid.

The former is a problem because heat would be continuously flowing in from outside. It's hard to keep things cool in that kind of situation; it takes a lot of energy. On Earth, small organisms have no way of doing it. Large organisms can keep themselves somewhat cooler than their environment, under some conditions... generally, by letting water evaporate from them. That is, the exact opposite of what you want.

The latter is a problem because it takes a lot of pressure to make much of a difference. Maintaining the integrity of an organism, with a high pressure differential from the environment, would require a very strong outer shell with no leaks or weak points. I can't see how that would work.

Peelee

2022-03-31, 11:16 AM

I for one would take cessation of existence over constant torture. Your mileage may vary.
Seconded.

Venus's clouds consist mostly of droplets of sulfuric acid, not water.
Psh. That's just salt water with extra steps.

Trying to get water out of sulfuric acid is hard.
Psh. Let's just take a bunch of baking soda and make the solar systems biggest 5th grade science project.

bunsen_h

2022-03-31, 11:44 AM

I for one would take cessation of existence over constant torture. Your mileage may vary.

For me, there's a crucial variable: is there hope of eventual release?

Psh. Let's just take a bunch of baking soda and make the solar systems biggest 5th grade science project.

We know that Venus has lots of volcanoes. So...

danielxcutter

2022-03-31, 11:48 AM

For me, there's a crucial variable: is there hope of eventual release?

Actually yes, due to how the D&D afterlife works.

137beth

2022-03-31, 11:54 AM

Wow I am more than a day late, so I'll just say I'm really happy to see Durkon getting practice convincing antagonists to switch sides.

dancrilis

2022-03-31, 11:58 AM

I for one would take cessation of existence over constant torture. Your mileage may vary.

As eternal torture goes Hel doesn't seem that inventive.
Panel 1: carry a big stone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)
Panel 2: clean a chair. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html), also see panel 6 where they get to just walk away.

It seems if you don't personally get on Hel's bad side it is merely unpleasant and boring, if you do get on her bad side it is unpleasant and boring and you have a disease (panel 3 and 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)).

As eternal torments go I can imagine worse.

bunsen_h

2022-03-31, 12:07 PM

Actually yes, due to how the D&D afterlife works.

To clarify: is there hope of release to a more positive existence? If the only options are
(1) immediate annihilation of my personality,
(2) an extremely long period of torture, with no release other than eventual destruction of my personality

I'd look more seriously at the first option.

If the torture is more like a [EDIT: precautionary removal of explicit real-world religion stuff. A "burning out of sins, leaving a purified soul"] thing, a period of suffering followed by release into one of the positive outer planes, it would be easier to bear the torture.

Quizatzhaderac

2022-03-31, 01:00 PM

As eternal torture goes Hel doesn't seem that inventive.I imagine the Rich just isn't that enthusiastic about showing the horrible torture of background characters.

And even if he was, one can't expect the entire audience to handle it stoically, so this is arguably a good time for "tell, don't show".

masamune1

2022-03-31, 01:16 PM

I wouldn't say Redcloak's issue was paranoia honestly - and not just because a lot of beings really do have it out for him and his patron.

Real paranoia isn't about whether or not the fears are objectively real (not least because they can become a self-fulfilling prophecy- like, say, when you are literally threatening to destroy the world if you don't get what you want and others are out to get you for it). Redcloak is a pretty textbook example of Paranoid Personality Disorder (and probably some narcissistic and maybe sociopathic tendencies), mixed with having way too much power and ability to act on his beliefs.

A crude description of PPD according to the ICD-10, for example- bolded for symptoms he arguably demonstrates:

PPD is characterized by at least three of the following symptoms:

1) excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
2) tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights);
3) suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
4) a combative and tenacious sense of self-righteousness out of keeping with the actual situation;
5) recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
6) tendency to experience excessive self-aggrandizing, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
7) preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.

Fyraltari

2022-03-31, 02:03 PM

For me, there's a crucial variable: is there hope of eventual release?
If my understanding of OOTS/D&D cosmology is correct, eventually Hel consumes your entire soul and you dissipate into her.

As eternal torture goes Hel doesn't seem that inventive.
Panel 1: carry a big stone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)
Panel 2: clean a chair. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html), also see panel 6 where they get to just walk away.

It seems if you don't personally get on Hel's bad side it is merely unpleasant and boring, if you do get on her bad side it is unpleasant and boring and you have a disease (panel 3 and 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)).
As eternal torments go I can imagine worse.
You assume that the dwarf souls that attend to Hel personnally are average, when I find it more likely that they are the lucky ones.

Also, they don't get to just walk away in panel 6, she's given them some sort of pox in panel 4.

Also also, an existence of nothing but unpleasantness, even if just mild unpleasantness, is worse than oblivion in my opinion, since oblivion is the most neutral experience conceivable.

[I]PPD is characterized by at least three of the following symptoms:

1) excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
Considering that, so far, four out of the five attempts he gets to complete his life work have failed, I'd say he's taking it very well.

2) tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights);
I don't really think that applies, unless you count his anti-hobgoblin racism.

3) suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
I don't think that applies either. Remember, he didn't come up with the "the gods deliberately screwed us over" narrative, he is, quite literally, taking it on faith from someone he considers a reliable source.

4) a combative and tenacious sense of self-righteousness out of keeping with the actual situation;
Oh, yes. 100%

6) tendency to experience excessive self-aggrandizing, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
I don't know, on the one hand his behaviour is pretty self-effacing, on the other hand, everyhting he does is about making himself feel better less bad, even if he doesn't realize it.

7) preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.
As with 3, I don't think that applies.

masamune1

2022-03-31, 02:20 PM

Considering that, so far, four out of the five attempts he gets to complete his life work have failed, I'd say he's taking it very well.

Killing his own brother to prevent another setback does not count as taking it "very well".

I don't really think that applies, unless you count his anti-hobgoblin racism.

I count his anti-human racism and his massacring a whole city in revenge for what a few Paladins from that city did to him.

I don't think that applies either. Remember, he didn't come up with the "the gods deliberately screwed us over" narrative, he is, quite literally, taking it on faith from someone he considers a reliable source.

It doesn't matter if the paranoid person considers their source to be reliable; it doesn't even matter if they ARE reliable. What matters is how fixated they are on it and how it causes them to see other people. The vast majority of paranoids don't come up with their beliefs all on their own.

Oh, yes. 100%

I don't know, on the one hand his behaviour is pretty self-effacing, on the other hand, everyhting he does is about making himself feel better less bad, even if he doesn't realize it.

Yes, that's an example of the self-centredness of the paranoid; another is not really caring about things that they don't identify with or don't relate to, which we see in his obsession with the rights of goblins but indifference to the rights of pretty much anything else.

As with 3, I don't think that applies.

Thinking that the gods themselves intentionally screwed over his entire race and are trying to thwart him and his god primarily to preserve the unjust status quo is an example of that- again, just because HE considers the source reliable doesn't make it so, and he refused to even consider that the Dark One might be lying / wrong when his brother brought it up.

Psyren

2022-03-31, 02:31 PM

Even if any of us have the psychiatric chops to accurately diagnose the mental disorders of a fictional stick figure character in a fantasy comic, attempting to do so could be insensitive to anyone who might actually suffer from those symptoms in real life, yeah?

Being in Hel is better than their souls being destroyed. It's similar to how she prefers Xykon-controlled world to destruction.

Discussing my views on this in depth can quickly lead us down a prohibited path of philosophy/religion so I'm going to just second Peelee and Fyraltari.

Actually yes, due to how the D&D afterlife works.

In OotS/D&D, the "release" in this case is essentially (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html) identical (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html) to oblivion so I would actually say yes and no. Yes if you get raised before you're fully "absorbed" and merge with the plane, No if you don't. At least, if keeping the same identity you had as a mortal is important to you.

Fyraltari

2022-03-31, 02:44 PM

Killing his own brother to prevent another setback does not count as taking it "very well".
That's not why he killed him. He killed him, because he couldn't accept he let xykon kill goblins and has nothing to show for it.

I count his anti-human racism and his massacring a whole city in revenge for what a few Paladins from that city did to him.
That doesn't follow. You're counting a desire for indiscriminate revenge over one of the most traumatic event one can live through as a " tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights)" but it's a singular case, not a pattern and it's of much greater intensity than what is described here. Had he such a tendency, he wouldn't let the demon-roaches mock him that much, for example.

It doesn't matter if the paranoid person considers their source to be reliable; it doesn't even matter if they ARE reliable. What matters is how fixated they are on it and how it causes them to see other people. The vast majority of paranoids don't come up with their beliefs all on their own.
But again, it's not a pervasive tendency. It's hard to tell because he almost only ever interact with people who are genuinely hostile (or toxic) to him. But for example When his brother abandonned the plan and later tried to convince him to do so as well, he recognized Right-Eye's actions as what they were, and did not distort them as hostile. Likewise with Jirix getting preferential treatment from both Xykon and the Dark One. You'd expect someone with a tendency to misconstruct others' actions as hostile to think Jirix was trying to take hisnplace or something.

[spoiler]Thinking that the gods themselves intentionally screwed over his entire race and are trying to thwart him and his god primarily to preserve the unjust status quo is an example of that- again, just because HE considers the source reliable doesn't make it so, and he refused to even consider that the Dark One might be lying / wrong when his brother brought it up.
Yes, but one thing does not make a pattern.

Edit: At the end of the day, I don't think The Giant intended for Redcloak to suffer from paranoia and his behaviour can easily be explained without using that diagnosis, so I choose not to read him that way. Your interpretation is no less valid than mine, but like Psyren says, maybe it's best not to try to psycho-analyse fictional characters.

Peelee

2022-03-31, 02:46 PM

faustin

2022-03-31, 03:01 PM

As eternal torture goes Hel doesn't seem that inventive.
Panel 1: carry a big stone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)
Panel 2: clean a chair. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html), also see panel 6 where they get to just walk away.

It seems if you don't personally get on Hel's bad side it is merely unpleasant and boring, if you do get on her bad side it is unpleasant and boring and you have a disease (panel 3 and 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)).

As eternal torments go I can imagine worse.

Remember Hel was planning to give Odin's high priestess to Garn as its personal chew toy for eternity.

Quizatzhaderac

2022-03-31, 03:39 PM

A crude description of PPD according to the ICD-10...The whole context of that definition is that each of these behaviors is irrational, abnormal, and individual.

Rational and productive behaviors don't count. The ICD-10 isn't there to fix what's not broken.
Irrational behaviors that the typical person would fall into don't count. The ICD-10 isn't there to diagnose normal people.
Behaviors that are a normal result of a weird culture or special social role don't count. The ICD-10 isn't there to diagnose cultural/ societal problems.

To rephrase: the question "is this person paranoid" is a question about how they react to their circumstances, it is not a question of what their circumstances are.

1) excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
Killing his own brother to prevent another setback does not count as taking it "very well".Killing his brother was a perfectly rational way to keep the plan on track.

The desire to keep the plan on track is a sunk cost fallacy, which a normal (if irrational) behavior.

2) tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights);Redcloack hasn't endured "slights". He/his people have endured momentous injuries and holding grudges is the expected, normal thing to do.

3) suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
it doesn't even matter if they ARE reliable.Yes, it does. Note the words "misconstrue" and "distort".

While you are correct that many paranoid people's delusions are unoriginal, they hold beliefs that were transparently absurd, or lack any reasonable support.

A regular person will not watch a flat Earth video and come to believe the Earth is flat.

4) a combative and tenacious sense of self-righteousness out of keeping with the actual situation;The actual situation is that the idea of his righteousness doesn't come from himself, it came externally from his culture, social role (priest/leader), and his literal god.

7) preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.
Thinking that the gods themselves intentionally screwed over his entire race and are trying to thwart him and his god primarily to preserve the unjust status quo is an example of that- again, just because HE considers the source reliable doesn't make it so, and he refused to even consider that the Dark One might be lying / wrong when his brother brought it up.The question the ICD-10 asks isn't if the source of his beliefs is unassailable/perfect, it is if it's reasonable.

He has approximately the same quality information as everything else known about the gods.

masamune1

2022-03-31, 04:19 PM

The whole context of that definition is that each of these behaviors is irrational, abnormal, and individual.

Rational and productive behaviors don't count. The ICD-10 isn't there to fix what's not broken.
Irrational behaviors that the typical person would fall into don't count. The ICD-10 isn't there to diagnose normal people.
Behaviors that are a normal result of a weird culture or special social role don't count. The ICD-10 isn't there to diagnose cultural/ societal problems.

To rephrase: the question "is this person paranoid" is a question about how they react to their circumstances, it is not a question of what their circumstances are.

Killing his brother was a perfectly rational way to keep the plan on track.

The desire to keep the plan on track is a sunk cost fallacy, which a normal (if irrational) behavior.

Redcloack hasn't endured "slights". He/his people have endured momentous injuries and holding grudges is the expected, normal thing to do.
Yes, it does. Note the words "misconstrue" and "distort".

While you are correct that many paranoid people's delusions are unoriginal, they hold beliefs that were transparently absurd, or lack any reasonable support.

A regular person will not watch a flat Earth video and come to believe the Earth is flat.
The actual situation is that the idea of his righteousness doesn't come from himself, it came externally from his culture, social role (priest/leader), and his literal god.
The question the ICD-10 asks isn't if the source of his beliefs is unassailable/perfect, it is if it's reasonable.

He has approximately the same quality information as everything else known about the gods.

The wider literature is much more clear that the supposed absurdity of paranoid beliefs are not a factor and many paranoid beliefs actually do make sense; the real problem is simply how much the paranoid person fixates on these things to the point of harming others or themselves- and, to be frank, a religious fanatic who goes around committing mass murder and killing his own family members for his mission of holding the world hostage is going to be at least considered to have PPD.

The ICD doesn't include PPD, or any other personality disorder, anymore because nailing down what is abnormal or not is tricky and culturally sensitive, and the criteria presented was grossly simplistic and they moved to a trait based approach- however, the idea that no reasonable psychologist would diagnose him with PPD because his backstory was tragic and would think that worshipping an explicitly evil god, killing family members and plotting global destruction are all "perfectly rational" responses to his experiences and situation (bare in mind his own brother didn't agree with that at all) is definitely not true. There might be disagreement (there is a ton in this area) but plenty of psychologists and psychiatrists would agree that he fits this.

HOWEVER, I've obviously derailed the thread with my discussion here and it appears to have made some people uncomfortable, so I think we should just end it.

bunsen_h

2022-03-31, 04:31 PM

It's like looking in Black's Law Dictionary for legal understanding. It's made for people who already have significant level of understanding in the field in general.

I understand perfectly well that when I operate a car for personal reasons, rather than for commercial purposes, I'm travelling, not driving! And therefore, according to the Fifth Amendment, I don't need a driver's license, nor to register my vehicle! (After all, it's not an automobile, it's my personal property, which I'm travelling with!) Even though I'm in Canada!

Peelee

2022-03-31, 04:38 PM

I understand perfectly well that when I operate a car for personal reasons, rather than for commercial purposes, I'm travelling, not driving! And therefore, according to the Fifth Amendment, I don't need a driver's license, nor to register my vehicle! (After all, it's not an automobile, it's my personal property, which I'm travelling with!) Even though I'm in Canada!

I just talked about the English magical claiming hatchets, too!

Liquor Box

2022-03-31, 06:17 PM

Even if any of us have the psychiatric chops to accurately diagnose the mental disorders of a fictional stick figure character in a fantasy comic

We make assessments of character's motivations and underlying personality traits that drive them all the time. Applying the actual clinical criteria would seem to make those assessments more accurate, not less. Of course, the assessment of those of us who are not expert wont be as accurate as that of a person who is an expert. But it's not like we are prescribing treatment or medication, so the standard we are looking for might be the best assessment we have, rather than a professional assessment we are entirely confident is correct.

Psyren

2022-03-31, 06:25 PM

We make assessments of character's motivations and underlying personality traits that drive them all the time. Applying the actual clinical criteria would seem to make those assessments more accurate, not less. Of course, the assessment of those of us who are not expert wont be as accurate as that of a person who is an expert. But it's not like we are prescribing treatment or medication, so the standard we are looking for might be the best assessment we have, rather than a professional assessment we are entirely confident is correct.

My point is that none of us are experts, and even if someone were to flash their psych credentials right now (and I were to believe them), that's not really what this forum or webcomic are for. It doesn't add a whole lot to the discussion except pretentiousness, and has the possibility of doing real harm to those reading.

Peelee

2022-03-31, 06:45 PM

My point is that none of us are experts, and even if someone were to flash their psych credentials right now (and I were to believe them), that's not really what this forum or webcomic are for. It doesn't add a whole lot to the discussion except pretentiousness, and has the possibility of doing real harm to those reading.

Seconded. For clinical criteria to be anywhere close to accurate, the forumite would need to have a solid background in medical mental health management, and so would the author. At least one of these is unlikely to be true, almost certainly both, so I don't see how it could in any way be helpful.

Worldsong

2022-03-31, 07:23 PM

Dwarves are not angels, they can be non-good (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html) just as easily as anyone else.
I didn't mean to imply that Durkon is trustworthy just because he's a dwarf, but dwarven culture does encourage trustworthiness which combines with all the other stuff that makes him a LG person (essentially his entire personality and behaviour) to lower the odds that he'd be intentionally deceiving Serini.

As eternal torture goes Hel doesn't seem that inventive.
Panel 1: carry a big stone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)
Panel 2: clean a chair. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html), also see panel 6 where they get to just walk away.

It seems if you don't personally get on Hel's bad side it is merely unpleasant and boring, if you do get on her bad side it is unpleasant and boring and you have a disease (panel 3 and 4 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)).

As eternal torments go I can imagine worse.
Boredom is and has been used as an effective form of torture. An eternity of boredom might not be an interesting Hel but I most certainly would not assume it's preferable over oblivion.

Also as others have pointed out it's relatively safe to assume that there's a lot of unpleasantness going on down there and we just haven't been shown it in excruciating detail both because it'd disturb people and because it's not really relevant to the story. We've been told that being condemned to Hel is bad news, we don't need to see souls suffering.

Real paranoia isn't about whether or not the fears are objectively real (not least because they can become a self-fulfilling prophecy- like, say, when you are literally threatening to destroy the world if you don't get what you want and others are out to get you for it). Redcloak is a pretty textbook example of Paranoid Personality Disorder (and probably some narcissistic and maybe sociopathic tendencies), mixed with having way too much power and ability to act on his beliefs.

A crude description of PPD according to the ICD-10, for example- bolded for symptoms he arguably demonstrates:

PPD is characterized by at least three of the following symptoms:

1) excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
2) tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights);
3) suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
4) a combative and tenacious sense of self-righteousness out of keeping with the actual situation;
5) recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
6) tendency to experience excessive self-aggrandizing, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
7) preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.

Looks at checklist.

Looks at self.

Well, damn.

Petrocorus

2022-03-31, 11:33 PM

Also (presumably) Tarquin (hopefully) being taken down by 2-4 side characters, one of whom is a WOC. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0940.html)
What's a WOC?

I mean they are a bit worse because they've lost an opportunity to attack Team Evil unawares, but yeah they're not losing anything more by trying to convince her,

Could still happen the next day. Xykon is not that likely to find the gate in the next 24h.

(first among them being that they don't do their ambush plan because it would reveal the door trick.)

Couldn't they use this tactic but implement it with Invisibility? I don't remember them having perma-true seeing.
Though i guess they could be detected through hearing or smell.

I was gonna reply that there's no way his phylactery is susceptible to lava, and then I realized that his regenerating body would be.
Does the OotS know how many magical wards are on the phylactery? They surely can guess there some, but apparently Xykon went the extra-mile with it.

Girard also let his rampant paranoia take up so much real estate in his mind that it led to a critical flaw that doomed his and his family's life work.
In his defence, Familicide is certainly not a well known spell.

Peelee

2022-03-31, 11:43 PM

What's a WOC?

Woman Of Color.

Psyren

2022-03-31, 11:49 PM

What's a WOC?

Woman Of Color.

Indeed. (If you haven't yet Petrocorus, I highly recommend reading the Giant's commentary in Blood Runs In The Family.)

Petrocorus

2022-04-01, 12:06 AM

Woman Of Color.
Oh this. Always forget about these stuff.

Indeed. (If you haven't yet Petrocorus, I highly recommend reading the Giant's commentary in Blood Runs In The Family.)
I don't own the book. I read some extracts of this commentary on the comics threads a couple of years ago.
And i still don't understand it.
I asked here some explanations after rereading the whole arc, and given how it went, i prefer not to ask again.

Thermophille

2022-04-01, 12:54 AM

I asked here some explanations after rereading the whole arc, and given how it went, i prefer not to ask again.

It's a touchy subject, and people are emotionally invested. When someone goes in legitimately confused, sometimes people assume the worst and act accordingly. Totally understand your sentiment.

Petrocorus

2022-04-01, 01:13 AM

Oh this. Always forget about these stuff.
Before this starts something, i prefer to explain that i meant that i always forget about all the paraphrases and acronyms peoples come up with to talk about skin colours.

danielxcutter

2022-04-01, 01:17 AM

It's a touchy subject, and people are emotionally invested. When someone goes in legitimately confused, sometimes people assume the worst and act accordingly. Totally understand your sentiment.

About the only subject as volatile seems to be the goblin thing, frankly. (The Serini thing doesn't seem nearly as bad.)

Liquor Box

2022-04-01, 03:07 AM

Indeed. (If you haven't yet Petrocorus, I highly recommend reading the Giant's commentary in Blood Runs In The Family.)

Can one read the commentary without having the books (which I think are now hard to get)?

Before this starts something, i prefer to explain that i meant that i always forget about all the paraphrases and acronyms peoples come up with to talk about skin colours.

To be fair I don't think that all the acronyms and phrases are that widespread outside the subset of people who use them

I googled WoC, and the first result was World Orienteering Championship, second was Women of Colour, and third was a business called World of Concrete.

danielxcutter

2022-04-01, 03:09 AM

Probably in the quote thread.

Vikenlugaid

2022-04-01, 05:02 AM

https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/0x0/2/2/804efa4a7e8b0debcdeaf555d6610f3039e8bdae68c9117351 2d11b4ccf1ad/tenor.gif?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimage s%2Fb2e70ec17a52db6da3076472cd8ed111%2Ftenor.gif%3 Fitemid%3D5502730&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

Well, Redcloak rejected it, not out of paranoia, but a deep-rooted inability to face his own guilt, but otherwise, yes, it'd be odd.

Odd? I don't know, the most normal reaction to that is surprise and disbelieve, even Lien is shocked and she believes Roy cause she know him and trust him.
But if some strangers comes and tell someone those shocking news, they have no reason to believe them.

Let's see how Serini reacts to that, but an answer like "why should I believe that?" Would be totally likely.

Peelee

2022-04-01, 07:51 AM

Can one read the commentary without having the books (which I think are now hard to get)?
The physical copies are hard to get the longer after publication, but the digital versions are readily available.

To be fair I don't think that all the acronyms and phrases are that widespread outside the subset of people who use them

I googled WoC, and the first result was World Orienteering Championship, second was Women of Colour, and third was a business called World of Concrete.

First for me, but even second on Google is nothing to sneeze at. Frankly, I think the dissemination of it is more regional based, but I have nothing to support that outside if my own suspicions.

danielxcutter

2022-04-01, 08:23 AM

First for me, but even second on Google is nothing to sneeze at. Frankly, I think the dissemination of it is more regional based, but I have nothing to support that outside if my own suspicions.

I mean, I don't think it's a common term outside the States at least.

Fyraltari

2022-04-01, 08:35 AM

To be fair I don't think that all the acronyms and phrases are that widespread outside the subset of people who use them

Where else would they be widespread?

Peelee

2022-04-01, 08:38 AM

I mean, I don't think it's a common term outside the States at least.

Pretty much, yeah.

Psyren

2022-04-01, 10:08 AM

I googled WoC, and the first result was World Orienteering Championship, second was Women of Colour, and third was a business called World of Concrete.

Even if the one I meant wasn't first, my context probably didn't include concrete or championships :smalltongue:

I asked here some explanations after rereading the whole arc, and given how it went, i prefer not to ask again.

It's tough to elaborate here because not all themes raised in the commentary, nor even the comic itself, are board rules appropriate - even those that might be raised by the Giant himself. (He of course can do so here if he wants.)

The short and sweet version is that Tarquin's expectations for both his legacy and Elan's role in his defeat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) are very ripe for subversion, and we saw the seeds for that near the end of that book. I was pointing out that it hasn't been paid off yet.

Peelee

2022-04-01, 10:24 AM

It's tough to elaborate here because not all themes raised in the commentary, nor even the comic itself, are board rules appropriate - even those that might be raised by the Giant himself.
Indeed! As you rightly point out, the Forum Rules only cover the forum, and conveniently, the comic and books are both on completely separate areas of the site.:smallwink:

(He of course can do so here if he wants.)
No comment. :smalltongue:

Petrocorus

2022-04-01, 11:27 AM

To be fair I don't think that all the acronyms and phrases are that widespread outside the subset of people who use them

I googled WoC, and the first result was World Orienteering Championship, second was Women of Colour, and third was a business called World of Concrete.
Which is one of the reason why i keep forgetting about them.
The other one is that here we simply say "black" and "white" and be done with it.

The short and sweet version is that Tarquin's expectations for both his legacy and Elan's role in his defeat (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) are very ripe for subversion, and we saw the seeds for that near the end of that book. I was pointing out that it hasn't been paid off yet.
This i know.
And as i said, i had conversations here about two years ago (or three maybe) about this thing and its connection to the colour thing and it was completely fruitless.
So i'm not going to have this conversation again.

Peelee

2022-04-01, 11:33 AM

Which is one of the reason why i keep forgetting about them.
The other one is that here we simply say "black" and "white" and be done with it.

I generally do that too when applicable, but POC/xOC covers a lot more than just black people and can be generally used for "non-white", which certainly has its purposes.

Psyren

2022-04-01, 11:43 AM

Which is one of the reason why i keep forgetting about them.
The other one is that here we simply say "black" and "white" and be done with it.

We don't actually know that she is black specifically (nor does it actually matter for Tarquin's outlook.) Hence xOC.

dancrilis

2022-04-01, 11:54 AM

... (nor does it actually matter for Tarquin's outlook.)
What outlook?

Only one member of Tarquin's party was white (Malack), another was orange (Jacinda), the other three humans (I assume) are various shades of brown and Tarquin himself is kindof pinkish.

Tarquin has his flaws but he doesn't seem in anyway motivated by the colour of individuals.

hroþila

2022-04-01, 11:58 AM

But Tarquin thinks they are his supporting cast, as Roy and Durkon are to Elan.

dancrilis

2022-04-01, 12:04 PM

But Tarquin thinks they are his supporting cast, as Roy and Durkon are to Elan.

I am very dubious about that - but for the sake of argument lets say you are right, he would think that based on them not being Tarquin no other factor seems relevant next to that one.

hroþila

2022-04-01, 12:07 PM

I am very dubious about that - but for the sake of argument lets say you are right, he would think that based on them not being Tarquin no other factor seems relevant next to that one.
My point is not that he thinks they're his supporting cast because they're non-white, but that he's fine with them being non-white because they're his supporting cast.

Thermophille

2022-04-01, 12:13 PM

My point is not that he thinks they're his supporting cast because they're non-white, but that he's fine with them being non-white because they're his supporting cast.

With all due respect:

Let's not. Let's not have this conversation.

Psyren

2022-04-01, 12:15 PM

What outlook?

Only one member of Tarquin's party was white (Malack), another was orange (Jacinda), the other three humans (I assume) are various shades of brown and Tarquin himself is kindof pinkish.

Tarquin has his flaws but he doesn't seem in anyway motivated by the colour of individuals.

As I said, the Giant speaks to this pretty directly in the commentary. I think he would know Tarquin's mindset better than anyone here.

dancrilis

2022-04-01, 12:20 PM

My point is not that he thinks they're his supporting cast because they're non-white, but that he's fine with them being non-white because they're his supporting cast.

I am even more dubious about that - as mentioned Malack is white, can you point me to anything in the text where skin colour is mentioned (or even referenced) by Tarquin - within the comic I don't think I remember anyone refering to skin colour of humans at all (probably has happened but I am drawing a blank), it has happened with other species and with Malack and Redcloak specifically to memory.

As I said, the Giant speaks to this pretty directly in the commentary. I think he would know Tarquin's mindset better than anyone here.

The page before 918 I assume you mean - the Giant mentions that he was using Tarquin as a symbol he mentioned nothing about what Tarquin actually thought about human colours.

HalfTangible

2022-04-01, 12:24 PM

Honestly, I thought Durkon did a crap job of persuading RC. I feel he would have done better to stress how much leverage TDO has due to possibly containing the Snarl, which should (if believed, which is admittedly a sticking point) make him more interested in opening negotiations. More importantly, it means that TDO has something to lose by not doing so. I feel like right now the logic of what TDO knows gives him no reason not to wait for his position to get stronger.

Redcloak is consistently characterized as being neck-deep in the sunk cost fallacy. And while Durkon does mean well, he's also been consistently characterized as piss-poor at persuading anyone of anything.

But Tarquin thinks they are his supporting cast, as Roy and Durkon are to Elan.Keep in mind he also thought Belkar was Roy's sidekick back in the arena.

Yeah he thinks Roy and Durkon's rightful place is as Elan's support, but it has nothing to do with their skin color. He saw Elan as the main hero because he's the son of Tarquin who is clearly the main villain, right? Who else could it be, some schlub who isn't named after a Star Wars character?

White people can be evil ***** without also being unfathomably racist.

hroþila

2022-04-01, 12:25 PM

I am even more dubious about that - as mentioned Malack is white
Clearly it is better to drop the subject if this is the kind of thing you're going to say - twice

Petrocorus

2022-04-01, 12:26 PM

We don't actually know that she is black specifically (nor does it actually matter for Tarquin's outlook.) Hence xOC.

So, "of colour" means "non-white"?

Who else could it be, some schlub who isn't named after a Star Wars character?

I'm sorry, a Star Wars character (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus)?

Psyren

2022-04-01, 12:36 PM

The page before 918 I assume you mean

That's the one. The entire last paragraph.

So, "of colour" means "non-white"?

A minority ethnicity, yes.

dancrilis

2022-04-01, 12:38 PM

Clearly it is better to drop the subject if this is the kind of thing you're going to say - twice

Fair enough - I maintain that he is white, also Haley refers to him as Whitesnake in (panel 12 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html)) (which frankly seems a much more racially charged statement then any I remember from Tarquin), also in that same strip it shows Tarquin is intending to marry a woman of different colour then he is, I remember nothing in his piece of the story that indicates any hostility to humans (or others) based on skin colour.

Petrocorus

2022-04-01, 12:43 PM

A minority ethnicity, yes.
OK.
This is where i drop the subject.

Fair enough - I maintain that he is white, also Haley refers to him as Whitesnake in (panel 12 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html)) (which frankly seems a much more racially charged statement then any I remember from Tarquin), also in that same strip it shows Tarquin is intending to marry a woman of different colour then he is, I remember nothing in his piece of the story that indicates any hostility to humans (or others) based on skin colour.
I had this exact conversation before. It probably happened many other times. And it probably never went anywhere.

faustin

2022-04-01, 01:26 PM

In his defence, Familicide is certainly not a well known spell.

It has been discussed before; all former members from the Order of the Scribble made glaring mistakes while building the defenses of their respective gates.

In Girard's case, the immunity to illusions or enchantments via feats or gear, or that some adventurers may resist them just with willpower and logic.

Also, as we have already seen, family relationships can be easily exploited even against each other (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html).

HalfTangible

2022-04-01, 01:54 PM

Each of the Gates has fallen specifically to a key component of its own defenses. Lirian protected hers with all the forces of nature (including disease), and it was destroyed by a forest fire. You could also argue she was killed by the exact inverse of her defenses, an unnatural horror.

Dorukan protected his gate through clever planning and the most powerful magics he could muster. It was destroyed because he added a self-destruct rune that could only be activated by someone pure of heart, not taking into account the possibility that a complete innocent wouldn't necessarily be able to correctly decide when this was a good idea.

Soon believed that only the oath and honor of a paladin was truly unbreakable. His gate was destroyed by Miko who (despite her fall) still believed in her oaths. O'Chul may have decided to destroy the gate, but by the time Miko got there this was no longer necessary, a fact that completely passed her by. And this oath also prevented him from destroying Xykon, since with the gate destroyed he had to leave. (well the oath is the only reason he got close, but you know what i mean)

Girard trusted in deception, illusion, and in keeping the Gate's existence as close to the chest as he could (meaning only his family and Serini had the real coordinates AFAWK). Which became a massive problem for the heroes who wanted to protect the gate, since they didn't know where it was and the villains did. But it also meant that his entire family was wiped out, and a massive number of innocents died in the process. Additionally, most of the illusions were lost without the gate guardians there to maintain the deception; all things considered his Gate ended up being the least well defended so far. (Dorukan and Soon had plans in place that would survive their own deaths or even the deaths of the other guardians).

Serini seems to believe in the power of deception as well, and on top of that has added a large number of monsters that she sees as her friends and comrades. Hell, the tomb itself is a tribute to one of those comrades, and arguably to the Order of the Scribble's friendship. We haven't seen if/how her Gate gets destroyed (assuming it does) but if the pattern holds my money is on it being destroyed because of her own paranoia and mistrust of the party of non-monstrous creatures.

That, or it will hold together because of the bonds that the Order of the Stick has forged over the course of their adventure (the real, ultimate reason that the Gates fell being that the Order of the Scribble came apart in conflict; just as that is the reason the Snarl exists in the first place)

hamishspence

2022-04-01, 02:13 PM

Girard trusted in deception, illusion, and in keeping the Gate's existence as close to the chest as he could (meaning only his family and Serini had the real coordinates AFAWK). Which became a massive problem for the heroes who wanted to protect the gate, since they didn't know where it was and the villains did. But it also meant that his entire family was wiped out, and a massive number of innocents died in the process.

The wipeout had nothing to do with any of Girard's actions - not directly, at least.

V sought to take revenge on a dragon by wiping out her family - and so Girard's was destroyed by V entirely because of V's own vengefulness.

The worst that can be said is that a "trust only family" obsession led to there being no other guardians, so a "family-targeting spell" could take out all the defenders at once.

Psyren

2022-04-01, 02:20 PM

The wipeout had nothing to do with any of Girard's actions - not directly, at least.

V sought to take revenge on a dragon by wiping out her family - and so Girard's was destroyed by V entirely because of V's own vengefulness.

The worst that can be said is that a "trust only family" obsession led to there being no other guardians, so a "family-targeting spell" could take out all the defenders at once.

Agreed, although without V's spell, Nale would have likely found the Gate weeks before the Order arrived. I'm not saying he would have gotten past the Draketooth defenders... but not saying he wouldn't either. And that could have led to it falling into the IFCC's hands.

Petrocorus

2022-04-01, 02:31 PM

Each of the Gates has fallen specifically to a key component of its own defenses. ....(the real, ultimate reason that the Gates fell being that the Order of the Scribble came apart in conflict; just as that is the reason the Snarl exists in the first place)
Good points.

Agreed, although without V's spell, Nale would have likely found the Gate weeks before the Order arrived. I'm not saying he would have gotten past the Draketooth defenders... but not saying he wouldn't either. And that could have led to it falling into the IFCC's hands.
This is true.
It is difficult to estimate what would have happened without the Familicide, because we don't really know how many were the Draketooth and how powerful they were individually.

HalfTangible

2022-04-01, 02:46 PM

The wipeout had nothing to do with any of Girard's actions - not directly, at least.

V sought to take revenge on a dragon by wiping out her family - and so Girard's was destroyed by V entirely because of V's own vengefulness.

The worst that can be said is that a "trust only family" obsession led to there being no other guardians, so a "family-targeting spell" could take out all the defenders at once.

What? I didn't say anything about Girard's actions, direct or indirect. Merely his choice of how to defend the gate. And it's undeniable that a key component of Girard's defense was the fact that he only trusted a select few individuals with its location and maintenance, primarily his family, and that this was a major part of the gate's eventual destruction.

ManuelSacha

2022-04-01, 04:37 PM

I'm sorry if this has been already pointed out, but I think the second panel is missing a period, after "Greenhilt".

Psyren

2022-04-01, 04:54 PM

What? I didn't say anything about Girard's actions, direct or indirect. Merely his choice of how to defend the gate. And it's undeniable that a key component of Girard's defense was the fact that he only trusted a select few individuals with its location and maintenance, primarily his family, and that this was a major part of the gate's eventual destruction.

Yeah but come on, there's no way he could have predicted something like Familicide either. Your facts are correct, but they're not exactly fair.

HalfTangible

2022-04-01, 05:31 PM

Yeah but come on, there's no way he could have predicted something like Familicide either. Your facts are correct, but they're not exactly fair.

It was an observation about a clear thematic through-line. Whether it was "fair" is irrelevant.

Snails

2022-04-01, 07:46 PM

Yeah but come on, there's no way he could have predicted something like Familicide either. Your facts are correct, but they're not exactly fair.

While Familicide is ridiculously unfair, what Nale/Tarquin would surely have eventually done to Clan Girard would also have been unfair.

And neither result is any more unfair that dinging Soon for a paladin basically going insane at the exact wrong moment.

The theme is the same: a well designed defense that fails because it was built on just a bit too narrow a foundation.

Liquor Box

2022-04-01, 07:54 PM

Clearly it is better to drop the subject if this is the kind of thing you're going to say - twice

Dropping a subject every time someone says something about it you disagree with is not a path to an open minded perspective.

A minority ethnicity, yes.

Is that right? I mean WOC would be an odd expression to use to describe ethnic minorities who are themselves white skinned. Or ethnic minorities in asian countries, where the majority is 'of colour'.

Doesn't it just mean non-white like Petrocorus said, which does encompass most (or at least the most visible) ethnic minorities in USA.

Precure

2022-04-01, 08:34 PM

Dropping a subject every time someone says something about it you disagree with is not a path to an open minded perspective.

Is that right? I mean WOC would be an odd expression to use to describe ethnic minorities who are themselves white skinned. Or ethnic minorities in asian countries, where the majority is 'of colour'.

Doesn't it just mean non-white like Petrocorus said, which does encompass most (or at least the most visible) ethnic minorities in USA.

It's an american concept, based on american concept of "white" to describe american minorities. There is no countries with "of color" majority since these people live in entirely different societies.

Snails

2022-04-01, 09:24 PM

I am even more dubious about that - as mentioned Malack is white, can you point me to anything in the text where skin colour is mentioned (or even referenced) by Tarquin - within the comic I don't think I remember anyone refering to skin colour of humans at all (probably has happened but I am drawing a blank), it has happened with other species and with Malack and Redcloak specifically to memory.

I believe he is dropping the discussion because you appear to want to argue about irrelevant details. The question being examined is how Tarquin sees things, even if the truth of his view is questionable. It seems pretty clear to me he imagines he is the leader of "his" group, while some of the members see things a bit differently. If Tarquin sees them as his underlings, well, non-white is a-okay, obviously.

The Giant was clear enough in his commentary about how he intended to write Tarquin as being significantly motivated by racism. IMHO it so happens that The Giant did not communicate that idea very successfully. Tarquin happens to be sufficiently motivated by his narrative imaginings that we, the Readers, required no other explanation than "It would be wonderful if my son became powerful and overthrew me!" These ideas were sufficiently odd that weaving them into the tale as a motivation apparently swallowed the space where racist overtones might have been laid.

So it is perfectly fair to say: "Hey! I read the comic and I do not really see it." But it is also fair to say: "The Giant was clear enough in his commentary, and nothing written contradicts this idea in the slightest."

For me, the strongest evidence that Tarquin probably held so darker motivations of racism or similar ilk came from his treatment of Haley. Not because he threatened to kill Haley -- I saw that one coming a mile away. It is his language and denigration of her as low born and sleazy. In my book, a True Adventurer would see Haley as an attractive, intelligent, and capable companion. Tarquin saw as much, too, but still considered Haley only barely tolerable (and perhaps only tolerable in the short term).

Petrocorus

2022-04-01, 09:38 PM

For me, the strongest evidence that Tarquin probably held so darker motivations of racism or similar ilk came from his treatment of Haley. Not because he threatened to kill Haley -- I saw that one coming a mile away. It is his language and denigration of her as low born and sleazy. In my book, a True Adventurer would see Haley as an attractive, intelligent, and capable companion. Tarquin saw as much, too, but still considered Haley only barely tolerable (and perhaps only tolerable in the short term).
I don't think there ever was any disagreement on whether Tarquin is sexist or not.

HalfTangible

2022-04-01, 10:37 PM

I don't think there ever was any disagreement on whether Tarquin is sexist or not.

Well that and he's also classist as all hell (seeing Haley's father as low born stock)

Liquor Box

2022-04-01, 10:45 PM

I believe he is dropping the discussion because you appear to want to argue about irrelevant details. The question being examined is how Tarquin sees things, even if the truth of his view is questionable. It seems pretty clear to me he imagines he is the leader of "his" group, while some of the members see things a bit differently. If Tarquin sees them as his underlings, well, non-white is a-okay, obviously.

The Giant was clear enough in his commentary about how he intended to write Tarquin as being significantly motivated by racism. IMHO it so happens that The Giant did not communicate that idea very successfully. Tarquin happens to be sufficiently motivated by his narrative imaginings that we, the Readers, required no other explanation than "It would be wonderful if my son became powerful and overthrew me!" These ideas were sufficiently odd that weaving them into the tale as a motivation apparently swallowed the space where racist overtones might have been laid.

So it is perfectly fair to say: "Hey! I read the comic and I do not really see it." But it is also fair to say: "The Giant was clear enough in his commentary, and nothing written contradicts this idea in the slightest."

For me, the strongest evidence that Tarquin probably held so darker motivations of racism or similar ilk came from his treatment of Haley. Not because he threatened to kill Haley -- I saw that one coming a mile away. It is his language and denigration of her as low born and sleazy. In my book, a True Adventurer would see Haley as an attractive, intelligent, and capable companion. Tarquin saw as much, too, but still considered Haley only barely tolerable (and perhaps only tolerable in the short term).

Tarquin's perspective on a Malack seems as relevant to the question of whether or not he's racist, as his attitude toward Hayley does.

danielxcutter

2022-04-01, 10:49 PM

Well I don't think anyone disagrees with the premise that he's an absolute asswipe, that's for sure.

Still think we should steer the topic away from this, as some of the relevant parts might cross a line when it comes to forum rules.

So, what are the odds of Serini at least seriously listening to the Order? As in, actually listen to what they're saying(even if she doesn't believe them at first) instead of talking at them and completely ignoring what they're actually trying to say?

B. Dandelion

2022-04-01, 11:00 PM

I'm not especially keen to defend Tarquin's honor, but I have read the commentary and my takeaway had been more that Tarquin was a fine symbolic stand-in for that kind of old-fashioned thinking rather than that he was racist, specifically. I think the wording was to the effect of "it's not a coincidence that he's an old white dude losing his marbles" at the black protagonist taking the spotlight, so I guess people could be reading that as "it's not a coincidence because he's racist". It didn't quite scan that way for me in context.

Ok, looking it up...
In this way, Tarquin is also symbolic of an older time when stories were likely to be more formulaic or clichéd—and less diverse. It’s no accident that he’s a wealthy old straight white man losing his marbles over the fact that the tale he is experiencing doesn’t focus on the other straight white man at the expense of the black man, the woman, the genderqueer person, and even the Latino guest star. By rejecting his insistance that he take the lead, Elan is also saying that no, it’s OK for not every story to have a blond white guy in the lead.

He goes on, but I feel averse to posting the entire page. It is really more about the importance of Elan willingly standing aside to let the other characters get their chance to shine, and how that sets a positive example for other straight white guys to follow, from the author who is also a member of that demographic.

The Giant doesn't say in so many words that Tarquin isn't racist either, but "he made it very clear that Tarquin was significantly motivated by racism" is not an assessment of the commentary that I would co-sign.

Thermophille

2022-04-01, 11:11 PM

So, what are the odds of Serini at least seriously listening to the Order? As in, actually listen to what they're saying(even if she doesn't believe them at first) instead of talking at them and completely ignoring what they're actually trying to say?

I think the next strip will begin with her saying something like:

"Assuming I believe you -and I'm not sure that I do-..."

Basically, she'd require some sort of proof for it. I think that having Durkon drink a truth serum and tell her that Thor told him this personally will be enough to convince her that this is legit.

Fortunately, she seems to be a lot less emotional about this than some of us had thought. She was making a practical judgement based on what she knew (don't want to open that box again), so when provided with solid evidence for a reasonable course of events (that the Gods would be willing to nuke the planet rather than risk the Snarl being used against them; I believe someone previously mentioned she might already be aware of the possibility), she'd be willing to assist, or at least consider assisting.

Mike Havran

2022-04-02, 01:30 AM

He goes on, but I feel averse to posting the entire page. It is really more about the importance of Elan willingly standing aside to let the other characters get their chance to shine, and how that sets a positive example for other straight white guys to follow, from the author who is also a member of that demographic.

The Giant doesn't say in so many words that Tarquin isn't racist either, but "he made it very clear that Tarquin was significantly motivated by racism" is not an assessment of the commentary that I would co-sign.I will throw by 2gp here and say that not only Tarquin is not a skin-color racist, but also that there is not a single human in the entire comic that is a skin-color racist the way we understand it. Skin color racism, or inter-human racism, simply does not make any sense in a world where humans regularly interact with powerful and communication-capable beings that are way more different, starting with hobbits and elves and ending with yuggoloths or whatever.

OotSverse equivalent of racism is specism, or cladism, and there is plenty of it to go around, with Blackwing being the prime perpetrator.

Ruck

2022-04-02, 03:10 AM

It was an observation about a clear thematic through-line. Whether it was "fair" is irrelevant.

The theme is the same: a well designed defense that fails because it was built on just a bit too narrow a foundation.

I agree.

The Giant doesn't say in so many words that Tarquin isn't racist either, but "he made it very clear that Tarquin was significantly motivated by racism" is not an assessment of the commentary that I would co-sign.

I agree with this as well. I don't think Tarquin is significantly motivated by racism, but it is sort of ambiently present in him. He's a rich old white narcissist who imagines himself the leader of his party and a central figure of this story, and-- this part is important, IMO-- he has a strong belief that everyone has a place and needs to know theirs. You can probably connect the dots on how that last point plays into racism.

Liquor Box

2022-04-02, 04:14 AM

I will throw by 2gp here and say that not only Tarquin is not a skin-color racist, but also that there is not a single human in the entire comic that is a skin-color racist the way we understand it. Skin color racism, or inter-human racism, simply does not make any sense in a world where humans regularly interact with powerful and communication-capable beings that are way more different, starting with hobbits and elves and ending with yuggoloths or whatever.

OotSverse equivalent of racism is specism, or cladism, and there is plenty of it to go around, with Blackwing being the prime perpetrator.

I agree with this (without having read the commentary). I think it makes sense too. With different species to see as an outgroup, humans with slightly different physical features (such as skin colour) wouldn't seem so different.

hroþila

2022-04-02, 04:41 AM

Dropping a subject every time someone says something about it you disagree with is not a path to an open minded perspective.
I didn't drop it because someone said something I disagree with. {Scrubbed} No thanks.

hamishspence

2022-04-02, 04:44 AM

Skin color racism, or inter-human racism, simply does not make any sense in a world where humans regularly interact with powerful and communication-capable beings that are way more different, starting with hobbits and elves and ending with yuggoloths or whatever.

OotSverse equivalent of racism is specism, or cladism, and there is plenty of it to go around, with Blackwing being the prime perpetrator.

The way goblins and hobgoblins are sometimes prejudiced against each other, may qualify as being more like racism than speciesism, given how minimal the differences are. Redcloak even calls himself on it.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html

And we have a hobgoblin who "hates the greenskins"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html

If goblinoids can indulge in straight racism, humans can. Not everything humans do makes sense, after all.

Liquor Box

2022-04-02, 06:01 AM

The way goblins and hobgoblins are sometimes prejudiced against each other, may qualify as being more like racism than speciesism, given how minimal the differences are. Redcloak even calls himself on it.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html

And we have a hobgoblin who "hates the greenskins"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html

If goblinoids can indulge in straight racism, humans can. Not everything humans do makes sense, after all.

Goblins and hobgoblins are very different from one another (eg different ability modifiers), much more different than different races of humans. They are equivalent of different species or at least different subspecies (as we are to the extinct neanderthals).

hamishspence

2022-04-02, 06:13 AM

Goblins and hobgoblins are very different from one another (eg different ability modifiers), much more different than different races of humans. They are equivalent of different species or at least different subspecies (as we are to the extinct neanderthals).

As The Giant pointed out:

Because all authors are human, it is exceedingly difficult for anyone to imagine a fully realized non-human intelligence. It has been done maybe a dozen times in the history of speculative fiction, and I would venture not at all in the annals of fantasy roleplaying games. (Certainly, goblins, dwarves, and elves don't qualify, being basically green short humans, bearded greedy humans, and pointy-eared magical humans.) Therefore, it's a moot distinction and one not worth making. Statistically speaking, ALL depictions of non-human intelligence—ever—are functionally human with cosmetic differences. Which is as it should be, because only by creating reflections of ourselves will we learn anything.

the differences between humans and elves, or humans and dwarfs, or humans and goblins, are cosmetic.

So the differences between goblins and hobgoblins are equally cosmetic, if not more so. "Different ability modifiers" don't matter that much.

Same principle applies with elves, when sun elves treat moon and wild elves differently in the various novels. Yes, they have different ability modifiers - so what? It's still the sun elves being racist, not "speciesist" or "sub-species-ist".

Liquor Box

2022-04-02, 06:54 AM

As The Giant pointed out:

the differences between humans and elves, or humans and dwarfs, or humans and goblins, are cosmetic.

So the differences between goblins and hobgoblins are equally cosmetic, if not more so. "Different ability modifiers" don't matter that much.

Same principle applies with elves, when sun elves treat moon and wild elves differently in the various novels. Yes, they have different ability modifiers - so what? It's still the sun elves being racist, not "speciesist" or "sub-species-ist".
You've misunderstood The Giant's quote. He's saying that human and authors are incapable of depicting non-human intelligence. Whether or not he's correct, it has little to do with racism of speciesism.

Anyway, the point is that Goblins and Hobgoblins have significant physiological differences (including those represented by their different stats) so would correctly see each other as very different from one another. Prejudice between hobgoblins and goblins is more similar to a halfling insulting a human than to racism between humans.

hamishspence

2022-04-02, 07:03 AM

Anyway, the point is that Goblins and Hobgoblins have significant physiological differences (including those represented by their different stats) so would correctly see each other as very different from one another. Prejudice between hobgoblins and goblins is more similar to a halfling insulting a human than to racism between humans.In core D&D, maybe - where regular goblins are as short as halflings - but The Giant removed the height difference.

Redcloak doesn't mention "significant physiological differences" - but talks about their "efficiency and warrior codes, sense of duty, military this and discipline that".

That's not physiology.