Sorcerer/ Warlock mashup

[paladinn]

I have been using a 5e-style spellcasting mechanic in other-edition games (BECMI, 3e, LL, etc.) since 5e came out. It gives a lot of flexibility, and tosses the Fire&Forget thing (a big win IMO).

Given that in the 5e-style, all casters are "spontaneous", there really isn't much of a reason to have a sorcerer class unless I also grab all the metamagic stuff from 5e as well. I know Pathfinder added the bloodline stuff, but I'm not sure I want to use all of that.

3.5 has the warlock class, and I'm pondering merging the 3.5 warlock, or at least some features, with the sorcerer. The eldritch blast specifically screams "innate power" to me, and would likely be a good fit for the sorcerer. Has anyone done or seen such a mashup? I want it to be distinct enough from the wizard, but still an arcane spellcaster and not OP.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

[RandomPeasant]

If all you give the Sorcerer is Eldritch Blast, that'd be totally fine. It's at best on par with the offensive Reserve Feats damage-wise, and while those do cost a feat, the Sorcerer is multiple feats down relative to the Wizard anyway. I think the bigger issue is how exactly you're implementing the casting changes, as that'll influence how much the Sorcerer should get to keep up with the Wizard.

[Troacctid]

As someone who really enjoys both the sorcerer and the warlock, mashing them together sounds like a lot of fun. It would make the sorcerer much more attractive compared to the wizard. I'm all for it.

[paladinn]

In 5e, sorcerers are the ones who actually get metamagic. Since wizards and sorcerers are both "spontaneous" casters, and wizards still have a big advantage in lot being so limited to "spells known", I want some reason to actually consider a sorcerer. PF has bloodlines and 5e has "sorcerous origins" which add potential if not raw power. And I think those, and to some extent metamagic, add complexity without a lot of benefit.

So looking at the 3e warlock (which is Way different than the 5e version), I know I want to grab the eldritch blast, probably at the levels described in Complete Arcane. I'm thinking the damage reduction and energy resistance aren't something I want to use, unless it's a part of the sorlock's heritage. For invocations, I'm leaning more toward the ones that modify e-blasts. Not really thinking of the at-will powers unless, again, it's part of the character's heritage. I also want to allow sorcerers the use simple weapons, which 3e allows but 5e kind of dropped.

In the interest of not being OP, I'm considering lowering the number of spells/day, but not sure what that should look like.

Thoughts?

[AsuraKyoko]

I like the sound of giving the Sorcerer Eldritch Blast a lot! That being said, I could also see a world where it gets mashed up with the Dragonfire Adept, since the sorcerer has this major dragon theming going on, so it makes a lot of sense, in my opinion.

I could also see giving the sorcerer a handful of invocations, perhaps the blast modifying ones? (or limited access to the DFA's breath modifying ones, since IIRC, they are better; we don't want to make the DFA obsolete)

As a side note, does it bother anyone else that the scaling for eldritch blast damage slows down after level 10? It matches the rogue's Sneak Attack scaling up until that point, but afterwards it just slows down for no particularly discernable reason, and ends at one damage die less. My table houseruled it up to +1 die every odd level, but it's still really annoying that it does this. (Vestiges are the same way, only scaling up to 8th, but I'm bothered less by that, since the progression of vestige access is already kinda wonky, what with the feat that treats your level as 2 higher.)

EDIT:
You could bundle features together into heritage-based packages. Say, for Dragon heritage, you get the breath weapon of a DFA, and some of the breath modifying feats, or for a more fiendish origin, you could get some of the Warlock invocations that play into that. If you make the lists limited, and strongly tied to a theme, with a smaller number of total invocations known (and perhaps slowing the progression), it should be fine.

For the DFA breath weapon, you could also put the 1d4+1 round cooldown on it, to keep it as a frequently available option without powercreeping the DFA itself.

Reducing spells per day could be a decent balancing mechanism, and having a breath weapon or EB would reduce the number of rounds you need to spend your standard action casting a spell.

[StSword]

Pathfinder has the Warlock archetype (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes-paizo-inc/warlock/) for Vigilantes, that combine both spellcasting and "mystic bolts."

Perhaps one could use that as inspiration for a 3e Sorcerer/Warlock mashup.

[RandomPeasant]

Since wizards and sorcerers are both "spontaneous" casters, and wizards still have a big advantage in lot being so limited to "spells known", I want some reason to actually consider a sorcerer.

The easiest way would be to accelerate the Sorcerer's spell progression and/or give them some additional spells known. Particularly if you are using 5e-style casting, the Sorcerer just doesn't know enough spells for their nominal advantage in tactical flexibility to overcome the Wizard's greater range of strategic options. Ideally, I think you'd give the Sorcerer slightly more spells available per day than the Wizard, but with the restriction that they don't get to swap between days.


In the interest of not being OP, I'm considering lowering the number of spells/day, but not sure what that should look like.

I think whether you want to reduce the number of spells per day depends on whether you conceive of this as primarily an upgrade to the Sorcerer or the Warlock. If the goal is to give the Sorcerer something to make up for not being as good as the Wizard, I would caution against removing spells per day, because the player who is looking to play a Sorcerer isn't going to be happy to lose core parts of their character for something they never really asked for. However, if the goal is to make a Warlock that can compete with full casters more reasonably, a limited number of daily spells and a broader range of Warlock abilities is what you want, as that character just wants something to carry them where their normal abilities don't. As always, you have to define your goals clearly if you want your changes to be effective.


I could also see a world where it gets mashed up with the Dragonfire Adept, since the sorcerer has this major dragon theming going on, so it makes a lot of sense, in my opinion.

Not really. Sorcerer fluff mentions dragons periodically, but the class itself has nothing in particular to do with them. People who want to go all in on the dragon-based Sorcerer have the tools to do that, I would be careful about making the class do that inherently, as many will be drawn to the Sorcerer for other reasons.


we don't want to make the DFA obsolete

Again, depends what your goals are. The DFA already can't really play with the traditional casters, giving the Sorcerer broad access to their abilities could be seen as a way to make that type of character viable in a higher power campaign, rather than as obsoleting the class.


As a side note, does it bother anyone else that the scaling for eldritch blast damage slows down after level 10? It matches the rogue's Sneak Attack scaling up until that point, but afterwards it just slows down for no particularly discernable reason, and ends at one damage die less.

The OCD in me is a little, but Eldritch Blast doesn't need it to be what it's trying to be. Sneak Attack is the Rogue's primary offensive tool, and needs to scale aggressively (arguably it should scale more if you don't assume people will be good at adding extra attacks to their full attack routine). Eldritch Blast is the thing the Warlock does when none of her real abilities are worth using. It's fine for it to be a crappy fallback, because it is supposed to be a crappy fallback.

[paladinn]

Pathfinder has the Warlock archetype (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/vigilante/archetypes/vigilante-archetypes-paizo-inc/warlock/) for Vigilantes, that combine both spellcasting and "mystic bolts."

Perhaps one could use that as inspiration for a 3e Sorcerer/Warlock mashup.

This actually isn't bad. I'm not a fan of the magus class, but I can see using the magus' spell progression with the warlock's e-blast ability. It definitely would not be OP.

Or.. let sorcerers have their full spell progression, but have the e-blast dependent on available spell slots. The higher the slot, the more powerful the blast.

Pondering..

[Maat Mons]

Honestly, I've long been puzzled by 5e's apparent hatred of Sorcerers. They took the class's sole reason for existing, spontaneous casting, and gave it to literally every other spellcasting class. They cut it's spells known down to a third of what they were in 3e, and far less than the number or spells prepared they gave to other casters.

Pathfinder at first seemed like it was going to give some love to Sorcerers. But then they published Arcanist, which is basically just a Sorcerer with the ability to change spells every day.

One thing I've considered is giving Sorcerer access to the Spell Point system, while everyone else is still beholden to spell slots. I've also considered giving them a scaling cost reduction, maybe as much as 1/2 their Sorcerer level to the Spell Point cost of their spells, and letting it reduce cost to zero. This would mean that a 20th-level Sorcerer could throw around 10-Spell-Point spells at will, allowing him to 10d6-damage Fireballs freely as a Warlock uses his Eldritch Blast.

[paladinn]

One thing I've considered is giving Sorcerer access to the Spell Point system, while everyone else is still beholden to spell slots. I've also considered giving them a scaling cost reduction, maybe as much as 1/2 their Sorcerer level to the Spell Point cost of their spells, and letting it reduce cost to zero. This would mean that a 20th-level Sorcerer could throw around 10-Spell-Point spells at will, allowing him to 10d6-damage Fireballs freely as a Warlock uses his Eldritch Blast.

Personally I've thought that dumping "fire & forget" was the one Greatest thing to come out of 5e. So I'm not sad to see spell slots applied to every caster. I do agree that the sorcerer should have had more spells Slots while the wizard has more spells known/prepared. I'm sure WotC thought that by restricting metamagic to sorcerers, that was somehow evening things out.

I've contemplated using spell points for sorcerers too, then adding any sorcery points to the pool and letting a sorcerer draw from the combined pool for spells, metamagic, upcasting, etc. I may still do that, but I'm still working on the "sorlock" mashup.

[RandomPeasant]

Or.. let sorcerers have their full spell progression, but have the e-blast dependent on available spell slots. The higher the slot, the more powerful the blast.

That's just a Reserve Feat. Which is not a terrible idea. You could do something like giving Sorcerers a free Reserve Feat and a bonus spell at each spell level which had to be something that enabled the feat.


Honestly, I've long been puzzled by 5e's apparent hatred of Sorcerers. They took the class's sole reason for existing, spontaneous casting, and gave it to literally every other spellcasting class. They cut it's spells known down to a third of what they were in 3e, and far less than the number or spells prepared they gave to other casters.

I think there's just something in the water at WotC's offices that makes people hate Sorcerers. It's not like the class got a particularly long end of the stick in 3e either, having slower progression, less spells known (even a smaller variety of spells on a given day), worse class features, worse metamagic, and even an arguably worse casting stat than the Wizard. It's even worse in many ways than the other spontaneous arcane spellcasters like the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, who at least know enough spells at each level that their being spontaneous means something.


One thing I've considered is giving Sorcerer access to the Spell Point system, while everyone else is still beholden to spell slots.

At that point you're just treading on the toes of the Psion. I think if I was going to make a mechanical tweak to the Sorcerer, it would probably be to explicitly open up the ability to learn spells from outside the Wizard list (probably just the Wizard/Cleric/Druid lists, as a 4th level character with 1st level haste and 2nd level animate dead is a bad idea).


This would mean that a 20th-level Sorcerer could throw around 10-Spell-Point spells at will, allowing him to 10d6-damage Fireballs freely as a Warlock uses his Eldritch Blast.

It would also mean they could throw around teleport, fabricate, and charm monster at will. Which is worrying. Daily limits don't always matter for the impact of an ability, but when they do they matter a lot.

[Elves]

Honestly, I've long been puzzled by 5e's apparent hatred of Sorcerers. They took the class's sole reason for existing, spontaneous casting, and gave it to literally every other spellcasting class. They cut it's spells known down to a third of what they were in 3e, and far less than the number or spells prepared they gave to other casters.

With its switch to spirit shaman/arcanist casting for the wizard, 5e obviated the need for sorcerer. Because there's no longer the original reason for including the class, 5e struggled to give it an identity. It decided to make it the metamagic class but in a more advanced edition metamagic is something any caster should have.

In other words, sorc should have been cut, but 5e's whole approach was to play it safe and not do anything controversial.

IMO, the most reasonable division is between 5e wizard and 3e warlock, daily vs at-will.

[noce]

You said you don't want it to be too strong, so I'd go with these changes: take the sorcerer, add eldritch blast, bump bab to medium, let it sacrifice spells known for invocations known.

Keep in mind that eldritch blast will help the class in the damage dealing department, effectively freeing up some spells known, that's why I suggest not to add a separate set of invocations known.

Bab is there basically to render EB not totally worthless for a full caster with access to the sor/wiz list.

[Jervis]

I have been using a 5e-style spellcasting mechanic in other-edition games (BECMI, 3e, LL, etc.) since 5e came out. It gives a lot of flexibility, and tosses the Fire&Forget thing (a big win IMO).

Given that in the 5e-style, all casters are "spontaneous", there really isn't much of a reason to have a sorcerer class unless I also grab all the metamagic stuff from 5e as well. I know Pathfinder added the bloodline stuff, but I'm not sure I want to use all of that.

3.5 has the warlock class, and I'm pondering merging the 3.5 warlock, or at least some features, with the sorcerer. The eldritch blast specifically screams "innate power" to me, and would likely be a good fit for the sorcerer. Has anyone done or seen such a mashup? I want it to be distinct enough from the wizard, but still an arcane spellcaster and not OP.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Honestly, with Wizard getting PF Arcanist casting without the slowed progression, giving the sorcerer the entire warlock kit would make them about on par assuming mid tier optimization. I might nerf either the sorcerer's spell slots or the warlock's invocations known a bit though. For my money, nix the warlock DR and fiendish resistance along with energy resistance, and take away the sorcerer familiar (insert lightning warrior meme here) along with maybe a spells per day decrease. Just gluing both together full stop would be very crowded. That said sorcerer having default d6 and 3/4 bab should be the standard though, they take less work than a wizard to kearn their casting and get less of it so the same chassis is lame.

[AsuraKyoko]

Not really. Sorcerer fluff mentions dragons periodically, but the class itself has nothing in particular to do with them. People who want to go all in on the dragon-based Sorcerer have the tools to do that, I would be careful about making the class do that inherently, as many will be drawn to the Sorcerer for other reasons.

I mean, the fluff references were what I was referring to. A significant portion of the stuff out there for sorcerers is dragon related, so including more dragon related abilities as an option would fit right in with that.


Again, depends what your goals are. The DFA already can't really play with the traditional casters, giving the Sorcerer broad access to their abilities could be seen as a way to make that type of character viable in a higher power campaign, rather than as obsoleting the class.

Fair enough. Any time a class is getting completely obsoleted, I take it as a signal to stop for a moment and consider what I'm doing before proceeding. It may be that doing it is the right decision, but it's worth thinking about that before you actually do it.


The OCD in me is a little, but Eldritch Blast doesn't need it to be what it's trying to be. Sneak Attack is the Rogue's primary offensive tool, and needs to scale aggressively (arguably it should scale more if you don't assume people will be good at adding extra attacks to their full attack routine). Eldritch Blast is the thing the Warlock does when none of her real abilities are worth using. It's fine for it to be a crappy fallback, because it is supposed to be a crappy fallback.

I mean, sure, but it's not like that extra 1d6 matters all that much, particularly after level 10. It's just one of those things that adds a little bit of complication, since it's harder to remember the scaling, and there is no real purpose behind it. (We houseruled it for precisely this reason.)

[Telonius]

Sorcerer did kind of get the short end of the magic stick. In my houserules, I split things up a bit differently.

Sorcerers are the metamagic specialists. Casting doesn't take any longer for spontaneous casters. Sorcerers get Eschew Materials free at first level, and a bonus Metamagic feat at 5, 10, 15, and 20. Wizards don't get the free metamagic, but they do get a bonus Item Creation feat (or Spell Mastery) at those levels.

I've considered giving them a free Bloodline feat (from Dragon Compendium) at 1st as well, that matches up with whatever magical ancestry they're getting their power from.

If you're coming in from 5e, maybe look at some of the Reserve feats? It gives more of a (5e) Cantrip-y feel than Eldritch Blast does.

[RandomPeasant]

IMO, the most reasonable division is between 5e wizard and 3e warlock, daily vs at-will.

I think "more spells at a time but no daily respec" is a viable niche. It's the same niche the Sorcerer is supposed to have in 3e, it just gets an insultingly tiny number of spells known and can't meaningfully do it.


Keep in mind that eldritch blast will help the class in the damage dealing department, effectively freeing up some spells known, that's why I suggest not to add a separate set of invocations known.

Bab is there basically to render EB not totally worthless for a full caster with access to the sor/wiz list.

I doubt EB is going to have that much impact on spell selection. It's just not enough damage to rely on. I also don't think you need to move BAB to medium, as full casters can already reliably make ranged touch attacks when they need to.


I mean, the fluff references were what I was referring to. A significant portion of the stuff out there for sorcerers is dragon related, so including more dragon related abilities as an option would fit right in with that.

Again, there are already plenty of abilities you can take if you want to be a dragon-themed Sorcerer. Heritage feats, dragonpacts, various PrCs in Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic, and even the Dragonblood Sorcerer racial substitution level that already does give a Sorcerer dragon-themed class features. You don't need to make those things part of the default, as WotC was way ahead of you on the idea that Sorcerers should have dragon options.


I mean, sure, but it's not like that extra 1d6 matters all that much, particularly after level 10. It's just one of those things that adds a little bit of complication, since it's harder to remember the scaling, and there is no real purpose behind it. (We houseruled it for precisely this reason.)

Houseruling such a minor change also creates complication. I'm not going to say you're wrong if it works for you, but I just don't think it's a very high value change.

[paladinn]

The more I'm thinking about it, the less I like the warlock class, especially in 3e. In order to make it fill the role(s) it has in 5e, it would take a lot of refluffing.

So I'm back to pondering the need/use for a sorcerer class at all. The PF bloodline and the 5e origin concepts aren't bad, and definitely distinguish it from the wizard; but I'm not crazy about the power bloat especially of PF. Sorcs get a bloodline power and/or spell every other level! Not sure if there's been a treatment of this that would pare this down a bit. But this blood/origin thing really is the sorcerer class' reason for being now.

I am using the 5e spell/slot system; and if I use slots or points, I want to give sorcs more slots/points, probably based on Cha bonus. It may not completely make up for the dearth lack of spells known; but with some blood/origin stuff, it may be enough.

I've decided to make eldritch blast into a cantrip that grants a flat d4 damage if cast as an at-will cantrip; Or it can be cast as a leveled spell and do damage based on the spell slot/points used in the casting.

Work in progress..

[Telonius]

I'm admittedly very new to 5e, but on my first read, the 5e Warlock itself seemed like a mashup of (3e) Warlock and Binder, from Tome of Magic. Not sure if that's accurate, but it seemed like they took elements of both for the 5e class.

[RandomPeasant]

So I'm back to pondering the need/use for a sorcerer class at all.

I think that's a fair thing to wonder. The fixed-list casters do what people want from spontaneous casting, and do so in a way that is reasonably balanced. The only real issue is that they miss half the schools that exist, and a couple of non-school concepts you'd probably want like Elementalist.


Sorcs get a bloodline power and/or spell every other level!

Are the bloodline powers OP? Because an extra spell at every other level seems like, if anything, too little to fix the Sorcerer, particularly if it is still behind the Wizard's progression. Spontaneous casting is kind of a joke when you only have one spell known at your highest spell level.


I've decided to make eldritch blast into a cantrip that grants a flat d4 damage if cast as an at-will cantrip; Or it can be cast as a leveled spell and do damage based on the spell slot/points used in the casting.

But there are already blasting spells? I guess it's nice that it only takes a cantrip known, but overall it doesn't seem great. Though I will say that pulling in 5e's notion of upleveling spells could help the Sorcerer some, if you used it to allow people to take things like summon monster and silent image as a single spell (rather than making it so that your low-level slots aren't don't scale).

[AsuraKyoko]

I'm admittedly very new to 5e, but on my first read, the 5e Warlock itself seemed like a mashup of (3e) Warlock and Binder, from Tome of Magic. Not sure if that's accurate, but it seemed like they took elements of both for the 5e class.

It does get some binder-like feel, though it doesn't really draw on it mechanically much at all, in my opinion. That being said, I think that the casting mechanics for Warlock could be used to make an interesting Binder class in 5e. You can have each vestige provide some spells known, rather than the standard spells known mechanic. I've actually started making a homebrewed Binder class for 5e using this idea. It's not anywhere close to done, but it's been an interesting exercise.

[paladinn]

Though I will say that pulling in 5e's notion of upleveling spells could help the Sorcerer some, if you used it to allow people to take things like summon monster and silent image as a single spell (rather than making it so that your low-level slots aren't don't scale).

Spell scaling is kind of baked-into 5e casting. Which IMO is a great thing. Clerics shouldn't need to have 5 renditions of Cure Wounds; just cast with a higher level slot. I would allow scaling for All casters; but it might be good Not to give it to wizards, since everything would need to be prepared "just so."

Pondering..

[RandomPeasant]

Spell scaling is kind of baked-into 5e casting. Which IMO is a great thing. Clerics shouldn't need to have 5 renditions of Cure Wounds; just cast with a higher level slot. I would allow scaling for All casters; but it might be good Not to give it to wizards, since everything would need to be prepared "just so."

There are certainly places where spells should work like the spell scaling in 5e. Pretty much everything with leveled variations could just be one spell, and that would be both simpler and better for the Sorcerers and Favored Souls of the world (who could certainly use the help). But it's not all upside. The thing where fireball doesn't do level-scaling damage unless you use a higher level slot is bad, particularly in the context of the much sharper power scaling in 3e.

[Jervis]

There are certainly places where spells should work like the spell scaling in 5e. Pretty much everything with leveled variations could just be one spell, and that would be both simpler and better for the Sorcerers and Favored Souls of the world (who could certainly use the help). But it's not all upside. The thing where fireball doesn't do level-scaling damage unless you use a higher level slot is bad, particularly in the context of the much sharper power scaling in 3e.

The fireball example is probably the most glaring. Damage is 2 to 1 with 3.5 scaling with CL while 5E’s scaled with slot. You would never use a 4th level slot to cast, say, a 7d6 fireball when black tentacles exists. I could see using a higher level slot to break the CL scaling cap, though.

[RandomPeasant]

The fireball example is probably the most glaring. Damage is 2 to 1 with 3.5 scaling with CL while 5E’s scaled with slot. You would never use a 4th level slot to cast, say, a 7d6 fireball when black tentacles exists. I could see using a higher level slot to break the CL scaling cap, though.

I'm unconvinced the CL scaling cap is necessary to begin with. There's no internally-consistent theory of what it should be or how it's applied. scorching ray is a 2nd level spell that scales up to CL 11. fireball is a 3rd level spell that scales up to CL 10. acid arrow is a 2nd level spell that scales up to CL 18. black tentacles is a 4th level spell that already has uncapped scaling (on the parts that scale at all). I don't think there's a good argument to be made that fireball dealing the same damage as cone of cold at 10th level is fine, but that it becomes broken for it to do that at 11th level.

[Troacctid]

I'm unconvinced the CL scaling cap is necessary to begin with. There's no internally-consistent theory of what it should be or how it's applied. scorching ray is a 2nd level spell that scales up to CL 11. fireball is a 3rd level spell that scales up to CL 10. acid arrow is a 2nd level spell that scales up to CL 18. black tentacles is a 4th level spell that already has uncapped scaling (on the parts that scale at all). I don't think there's a good argument to be made that fireball dealing the same damage as cone of cold at 10th level is fine, but that it becomes broken for it to do that at 11th level.
Is it inconsistent? I feel like the guidelines for spell damage caps in the DMG are followed pretty closely for the most part.

[Maat Mons]

An amusing thought I had while reading this thread: the player of a Sorcerer must carefully study his spell list, but the player of a Wizard can intuitively explore his magic.

If you, the player, don't put meticulous consideration into the spells known of your Sorcerer, you'll screw yourself over and have an ineffective character. You've only got, in 5e, 15 spells known ever (barring some of the later-printed bloodlines). You can't afford for any of them to be bad picks. And the only way to be reasonably sure of making good picks is to hit the books, learn what every spell on your class spell list does, and carefully weigh them against each other.

As a Wizard in 5e, you eventually get 25 spells prepared. That means you could completely flub the choice for 10 of them (40%) and still be as well off as a Sorcerer who made perfect decisions. And if you can't manage a 60% success rate off the bat, no worries. You can fail forward, work around to a basic understanding of how to play your class via trial and error. Wizard is idiot-proof, since you can't mess up in any permanent way.

So Wizard is a good fit for dumb-dumbs who can't be arsed to do their homework. But Sorcerer is only for individuals with a keen mind, dedication, and lots of time.

[RandomPeasant]

Is it inconsistent? I feel like the guidelines for spell damage caps in the DMG are followed pretty closely for the most part.

I mean, in the post you quoted I pointed out two different spells of the same level that differ in how long they scale by seven levels, so it seems pretty inconsistent to me.


An amusing thought I had while reading this thread: the player of a Sorcerer must carefully study his spell list, but the player of a Wizard can intuitively explore his magic.

This is yet another reason why the Warmage-types are what people want spontaneous spellcasting to be. You don't have to work very hard to get a Warmage that is reasonably effective (at least, at doing Warmage stuff). In fact, you have to work pretty hard to make a Warmage that isn't reasonably effective. You get a couple of Advanced Learning picks, but the value swing on those isn't very large. But, yes, with the way the game is presented, it is bizarre that the Sorcerer is the hard mode spellcaster, though option paralysis is a big enough deal that the Wizard isn't really easy.

[Jervis]

An amusing thought I had while reading this thread: the player of a Sorcerer must carefully study his spell list, but the player of a Wizard can intuitively explore his magic.

If you, the player, don't put meticulous consideration into the spells known of your Sorcerer, you'll screw yourself over and have an ineffective character. You've only got, in 5e, 15 spells known ever (barring some of the later-printed bloodlines). You can't afford for any of them to be bad picks. And the only way to be reasonably sure of making good picks is to hit the books, learn what every spell on your class spell list does, and carefully weigh them against each other.

As a Wizard in 5e, you eventually get 25 spells prepared. That means you could completely flub the choice for 10 of them (40%) and still be as well off as a Sorcerer who made perfect decisions. And if you can't manage a 60% success rate off the bat, no worries. You can fail forward, work around to a basic understanding of how to play your class via trial and error. Wizard is idiot-proof, since you can't mess up in any permanent way.

So Wizard is a good fit for dumb-dumbs who can't be arsed to do their homework. But Sorcerer is only for individuals with a keen mind, dedication, and lots of time.
That is pretty funny. 5E making everyone spontaneous really messed with sorcerers. There’s no reason a sorcerer should have 15 spells max in that edition. The metamagic options don’t compensate. It’s almost like they brought on Monte Cook to design one class before he left because they wouldn’t make wizards more powerful. Wizards can still loose their book but humorously a wizard with no book is still a batter sorcerer.


I mean, in the post you quoted I pointed out two different spells of the same level that differ in how long they scale by seven levels, so it seems pretty inconsistent to me.



This is yet another reason why the Warmage-types are what people want spontaneous spellcasting to be. You don't have to work very hard to get a Warmage that is reasonably effective (at least, at doing Warmage stuff). In fact, you have to work pretty hard to make a Warmage that isn't reasonably effective. You get a couple of Advanced Learning picks, but the value swing on those isn't very large. But, yes, with the way the game is presented, it is bizarre that the Sorcerer is the hard mode spellcaster, though option paralysis is a big enough deal that the Wizard isn't really easy.
Makes me wonder what a sorcerer Warmage hybrid would look like. Not a Warmage with Sorc spell list, I built something similar before via Durthan with wizard and archivist but that’s besides the point, probably just a sorcerer who chooses from prebuilt spell lists based on school or something

[RandomPeasant]

Makes me wonder what a sorcerer Warmage hybrid would look like. Not a Warmage with Sorc spell list, I built something similar before via Durthan with wizard and archivist but that’s besides the point, probably just a sorcerer who chooses from prebuilt spell lists based on school or something

You could do something like having the Sorcerer pick a collection of domains rather than learning spells individually. But I'm not convinced even that is meaningfully better than the Dread Necromancer model where you get a focused spell list and some class features. Just do that a few more times and you have want you need.

[StSword]

You could do something like having the Sorcerer pick a collection of domains rather than learning spells individually. But I'm not convinced even that is meaningfully better than the Dread Necromancer model where you get a focused spell list and some class features. Just do that a few more times and you have want you need.

There's a third party book that groups all spells into paths ala DnD 2e path magic, which one can get for free here (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/28926/Paths-of-Power?manufacturers_id=617).

No reason why someone couldn't make that class specific if one wants.

I know I've toyed with the idea of a campaign where spontaneous arcane casters use the Pathfinder Words of Power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power/) system, so Sorcerers and Bards can basically make spells on the fly.

Edit- Or maybe one could look at the Spheres of Power Sorcerer (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sphere-sorcerer) as an inspiration? Spheres is basically a spiritual successor to 3e warlocks, so it's got that covered. But under the sphere system spherecasters can learn ritual versions (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/rituals) of spells, ala DnD 5e, and even buy feats (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/rituals#toc15) to prepare these rituals in advance to cast like a wizard.

So using that as a basis you could form a sorcerer who can blast all day like a warlock and be able to cast rituals as needed or prepare spells, although the basis is a bit more warlock less sorcerer than what I gleamed was the goal. But I thought I'd mention it for completeness sake.