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View Full Version : Is Genie 1 worth it on virtually every extra attack character?



LordShade
2022-03-31, 12:36 AM
It seems to me that for a 1 level dip, you get +2-6 DPR permanently for the rest of the campaign as long as you can expect at least one attack per round to hit. No resource cost, no action cost, no limits to use. Always on, always works, whether a melee weapon, bow, or cantrip. In terms of passive effects from a dip, it's got to be the second best thing after dipping for armor and shield. Barbarian? Take a level, stacks with Rage and anything else. Monk? Free damage. Ranger? Yeah, stacks with Hunter's Mark and doesn't cost you a BA. Maybe it's not that good for a Rogue.

Barring a great ability like Extra Attack, IDS or Lifedrinker, is there anything else that you can get this good for 1 level? 2 Pact slots, some cantrips and a secret base are just gravy.

Mastikator
2022-03-31, 02:00 AM
No because Hexblade 1 is situationally even better :smallamused:

LudicSavant
2022-03-31, 02:13 AM
It seems to me that for a 1 level dip, you get +2-6 DPR permanently for the rest of the campaign as long as you can expect at least one attack per round to hit. No resource cost, no action cost, no limits to use. Always on, always works, whether a melee weapon, bow, or cantrip. In terms of passive effects from a dip, it's got to be the second best thing after dipping for armor and shield. Barbarian? Take a level, stacks with Rage and anything else. Monk? Free damage. Ranger? Yeah, stacks with Hunter's Mark and doesn't cost you a BA. Maybe it's not that good for a Rogue.

Is this with rolled stats? Because with point buy, affording 13 Cha is rather expensive for a Monk, Ranger, or Barbarian.

Kane0
2022-03-31, 03:05 AM
Yeah its a solid MC for anyone that has the Cha spare and is wanting a quick payoff in the short term by sacrificing their class progression.

Which really fits the theme of the warlock doesnt it.

stoutstien
2022-03-31, 03:50 AM
It's a good potential dip but it doesn't automatically bste the other options that are just as powerful like half the cleric domains

Burley
2022-03-31, 07:17 AM
I'm not usually a fan of one level dips and, since 3.5, Warlock has been the King of Dips. Being able to add your proficiency bonus to damage would be awesome for a lot of classes and, although the Cha13 requirement was brought up, the classes I imagine to want those few free points of damage would be Rogue and Sorcerer, which would have probably the Cha13. (Sure, every class would love to have a few extra points of damage, but a Barbarian isn't going to be using the spells while they rage and a Fighter may not have their hands free to cast.)

That being said, because I hate dipping, I'd just play a Genie Warlock. Eldritch Blast is the best cantrip for damage, anyway. Adding Prof and Cha (agonizing blast) to EB damage is nice enough for me, pretty much guaranteeing double your average damage.

Petelo4f
2022-03-31, 07:40 AM
It seems to me that for a 1 level dip, you get +2-6 DPR permanently for the rest of the campaign as long as you can expect at least one attack per round to hit. No resource cost, no action cost, no limits to use. Always on, always works, whether a melee weapon, bow, or cantrip. In terms of passive effects from a dip, it's got to be the second best thing after dipping for armor and shield. Barbarian? Take a level, stacks with Rage and anything else. Monk? Free damage. Ranger? Yeah, stacks with Hunter's Mark and doesn't cost you a BA. Maybe it's not that good for a Rogue.

Barring a great ability like Extra Attack, IDS or Lifedrinker, is there anything else that you can get this good for 1 level? 2 Pact slots, some cantrips and a secret base are just gravy.

It is really good, but the Genie dip is at its strongest when used to grant access to the crusher feat on builds that otherwise can't use it, such as archer or Halberd/Glaive builds for the extra forced movement. You get tons of control, and actually it combos really well with a rogue. With the 1 level dip you can now have your rogue learn Booming Blade as well as get access to crusher, so you walk up, sneak attack with your rapier/dagger with Booming Blade, and slide them 5ft away from you.

All that being said, you have to be able to afford the charisma AND 1 lvl isn't free. I'd still usually prefer to go Paladin6/Sorcerer 14 than grab a level of Genielock, or if I'm a fighter/rogue with the wisdom for it, Gloomstalker is very appealing.

Hael
2022-03-31, 07:41 AM
No because Hexblade 1 is situationally even better :smallamused:

For context hexblade curse is going to double or triple that damage (more b/c of crit) every turn its applied depending on number of attacks at the opportunity cost of one BA. Since it might only be up ~50% of the time (say 1 out of 2 fights per SR), it will be roughly equivalent if you only attack twice, but will end up being more if you attack 3 times (ba attack/fighter 3rd attack, flurry of blows, EB etc).

I'd say if you your campaign favors big beefy enemies, curse will lead to more damage. If its perpetually small hordes, then Genies wrath.

Mostlymad
2022-03-31, 08:18 AM
It is not worth it on Extra Attack Characters. The extra damage is only on one attack per turn. You get nothing from it by having Extra Attack other than more chances to ensure it lands.

Hexblade's Curse at least let's you apply proficiency bonus damage to each of your attacks against a single target at the cost of your bonus action. This is as good as Rage early on but will get better as you get higher up in level.

Frogreaver
2022-03-31, 08:31 AM
For context hexblade curse is going to double or triple that damage (more b/c of crit) every turn its applied depending on number of attacks at the opportunity cost of one BA. Since it might only be up ~50% of the time (say 1 out of 2 fights per SR), it will be roughly equivalent if you only attack twice, but will end up being more if you attack 3 times (ba attack/fighter 3rd attack, flurry of blows, EB etc).

I'd say if you your campaign favors big beefy enemies, curse will lead to more damage. If its perpetually small hordes, then Genies wrath.

I think in most adventuring days genie will do more. At least until you get 3+ attacks (or 2 and a bonus action attack)

In the best case scenario with 2 attacks hexblades curse can be used on about 6-8 attacks per combat. Genie can be used once every round. You get about 3 uses of hexblades curse per day. That makes 18-24 attacks.

@60% to hit
14.4*Damage for the hexblade from curse
Genie will then land 84% of rounds.

Thus it takes 17.1 rounds of attacks for genie to equal hexblade curse damage in the day.

For 3 attacks it takes 23.1 rounds.

In worse case scenarios for the hexblade the enemy you cursed dies in less than 4 rounds.

Unless I wanted charisma to attack or medium armor/shields, I would be taking the genie pact as a dip for damage. I mean you still have hex you can use once per short rest as a bonus action as well.

Joe the Rat
2022-03-31, 12:34 PM
I am seeing this all over a Swashbuckler Rogue.
- already Cha-invested
- genies are flashy as hell
- being able to spend an hour a day hiding inside your fancy poison ring or other fancy bauble for the ultimate surprise
- Crusher's shove-around is less critical for your safety.

stoutstien
2022-03-31, 03:34 PM
Hmm. I wonder if undead is worthy to be in the same category with hexblade and genie as far as one level dips go.

Willie the Duck
2022-03-31, 04:14 PM
It is not worth it on Extra Attack Characters. The extra damage is only on one attack per turn. You get nothing from it by having Extra Attack other than more chances to ensure it lands.

It's a good potential dip but it doesn't automatically bste the other options that are just as powerful like half the cleric domains

Yeah its a solid MC for anyone that has the Cha spare and is wanting a quick payoff in the short term by sacrificing their class progression.

That's the thing -- dips are more expensive than they look. Especially for full casters (at every odd level you are going to feel that new level of spells you aren't casting) or Extra-attack classes pre-capping out the # of attacks*. Most of the dips which are actually worthwhile will be ones which fundamentally change your play-behavior (a fighter or cleric dip that let's your wizard be armored and move their AC from 10-15 to the 17-20 range), or circumvent huge build issues (hexblade making devoting ASIs to non-Cha for a paladin, etc.). A dip for a static 1-10 bonus to DPR? I hope there are other benefits.
*that occur in levels you expect to play

Rogues after L11*, barbarians after L5, that kind of thing -- I can see it. Especially if you don't see anything special coming up you love in the next few levels. But just take the rogue -- a level delay costs 1/2 a d6 (possibly x2, if you get a reaction attack as well), on top of whatever else you get for your rogue levels (and, despite there not being something obvious like extra attack of Level 3 spells, every level a rogue has in the first 10 gives out something really nice that you will miss not having for a whole level).
*or earlier if you don't expect to play much tier 3

stoutstien
2022-03-31, 04:20 PM
That's the thing -- dips are more expensive than they look. Especially for full casters (at every odd level you are going to feel that new level of spells you aren't casting) or Extra-attack classes pre-capping out the # of attacks*. Most of the dips which are actually worthwhile will be ones which fundamentally change your play-behavior (a fighter or cleric dip that let's your wizard be armored and move their AC from 10-15 to the 17-20 range), or circumvent huge build issues (hexblade making devoting ASIs to non-Cha for a paladin, etc.). A dip for a static 1-10 bonus to DPR? I hope there are other benefits.
*that occur in levels you expect to play

Rogues after L11*, barbarians after L5, that kind of thing -- I can see it. Especially if you don't see anything special coming up you love in the next few levels. But just take the rogue -- a level delay costs 1/2 a d6 (possibly x2, if you get a reaction attack as well), on top of whatever else you get for your rogue levels (and, despite there not being something obvious like extra attack of Level 3 spells, every level a rogue has in the first 10 gives out something really nice that you will miss not having for a whole level).
*or earlier if you don't expect to play much tier 3

I generally agree. Dips have a cost analysis built in and there are plenty of class/builds that they don't really add much to. The good/bad news is half the capstones are craptastic so if multiclassing is available is a good move at some point.

Evaar
2022-03-31, 06:41 PM
That's the thing -- dips are more expensive than they look. Especially for full casters (at every odd level you are going to feel that new level of spells you aren't casting) or Extra-attack classes pre-capping out the # of attacks*. Most of the dips which are actually worthwhile will be ones which fundamentally change your play-behavior (a fighter or cleric dip that let's your wizard be armored and move their AC from 10-15 to the 17-20 range), or circumvent huge build issues (hexblade making devoting ASIs to non-Cha for a paladin, etc.). A dip for a static 1-10 bonus to DPR? I hope there are other benefits.
*that occur in levels you expect to play

Rogues after L11*, barbarians after L5, that kind of thing -- I can see it. Especially if you don't see anything special coming up you love in the next few levels. But just take the rogue -- a level delay costs 1/2 a d6 (possibly x2, if you get a reaction attack as well), on top of whatever else you get for your rogue levels (and, despite there not being something obvious like extra attack of Level 3 spells, every level a rogue has in the first 10 gives out something really nice that you will miss not having for a whole level).
*or earlier if you don't expect to play much tier 3

I agree with this. I think in general people who hang around build/optimization forums overdo it with multiclassing, like it's a reflexive thing rather than being really deeply considered against the cost.

I think Genie is a fine dip. You can do some interesting things adding the Bludgeoning damage from Dao and comboing that with a Slashing weapon, grabbing both the Crusher and Slasher feats to slide enemies and slow them. But that's a gimmick, not a whole build. The additional DPR value is decent, not incredible.

You can't just look at the thing you're dipping into and determine if that's good. You have to look at what you're giving up or delaying and compare the two. Some classes end up with large gaps where they don't get anything especially good, but most have some pretty nice goodies to keep things interesting. Make sure you aren't giving up an encounter-winning feature in exchange for 2-6 more DPR.

Corsair14
2022-03-31, 06:56 PM
What the heck is a genie dip? Are they mixing races and classes now?

Damon_Tor
2022-03-31, 07:00 PM
Would I delay my fighter's second or third attack a level to get this? No. Nor would I slow my rages per day progression. In a vacuum this feature is better than another die of sneak attack once your proficiency hits. +4, but the difference is small and there are rogue features I definitely wouldn't want to delay.

Frogreaver
2022-03-31, 08:10 PM
Would I delay my fighter's second or third attack a level to get this? No. Nor would I slow my rages per day progression. In a vacuum this feature is better than another die of sneak attack once your proficiency hits. +4, but the difference is small and there are rogue features I definitely wouldn't want to delay.

I wouldn’t delay my 2nd attack. But my third for this and a cast of hex once per short rest. Heck yea!

Greywander
2022-03-31, 08:16 PM
I've often compared it to the Dueling fighting style on a fighter (comparing the fighter's four attacks to the warlock's four EBs).

Dueling is +2 damage per attack. If the fighter hits with all four attacks, that's +8 total damage vs. the warlock's +6. But that's a big if. If the fighter misses with one attack, it's down to +6 damage, same as the warlock, and missing two attacks drops it to +4. Edit: Forgot to mention, they also scale at a similar rate, both providing +2 bonus damage to your single attack/beam initially and then adding more as your number of attack/proficiency bonus increases.

It would be nicer if it applied to each attack, but it actually works out better to have a bigger bonus only on the first hit, because then you get to apply the full bonus as long as you can hit once. It's why TWF is actually decent on rogues. It doesn't scale with the number of attacks in the same way that, say, Improved Divine Smite does, but it still does better the more attacks you get since it increases your odds of hitting at least once. With four attacks, you have about a 90+% chance of landing at least one hit, so it really is just about a straight +6 to DPR.

I'd say it's definitely a strong option, if you can spare a dip. Obviously, not every build has spare levels they can spend on dips, and some dips work better for certain builds. But it's one of those options that's pretty much universally beneficial.

There's another benefit which has only been partially mentioned by someone else here. Yes, if you take a dao patron, you can pick up Crusher and use it on the attack that applies the bonus damage (not every attack, since only one attack adds the bonus). But it doesn't stop there. For example, an Eldritch Sniper build I came up with combines Genielock with Dragonsorc, taking an efreet or marid patron to apply fire or cold damage to EB, then taking a red/gold/brass or white/silver draconic ancestry so that they can add their CHA mod to spells that deal fire or cold damage. Basically, Genie's Wrath allows any attack spell, including EB, to qualify for the Dragon sorc's Elemental Affinity, albeit you're limited to fire or cold. I think there might be a few other such synergies out there. An efreet patron will make any attack spell trigger the tiefling's Flames of Phlegethos, for example.

animorte
2022-03-31, 09:49 PM
1 level of Genie Warlock is worth it always, no matter what. If anybody tells you otherwise, they just want to see you fail.

The time within the vessel also scales with proficiency. At PC level 9, you can long rest in the vessel and as soon as you pop out it's ready to go again.

LordShade
2022-03-31, 10:42 PM
I originally had this idea when thinking about viable multiclass dips for Barbarian after level 10, since most of the higher level Barb powers are pretty bad. Rogue is a good multiclass depending on your weapon choices, and Fighter up to level 3 or 4 can be good. But in terms of passives that work with Rage, there isn't a whole lot. Blood Hunter has some non-concentration melee buffs, and then there's this.

Greywander
2022-03-31, 11:30 PM
1 level of Genie Warlock is worth it always, no matter what. If anybody tells you otherwise, they just want to see you fail.

The time within the vessel also scales with proficiency. At PC level 9, you can long rest in the vessel and as soon as you pop out it's ready to go again.
Not necessarily. Dipping invariably means giving up a level in a different class, e.g. giving up your class capstone, or delaying other features such as spellcasting progression. Some builds also benefit more from a different warlock subclass, e.g. Hexblade.

Genie is a nice dip that fairly universal in its benefit, but there will be times where it's not the best option. It is a good dip for almost anyone who can afford, since most of what you're getting scales with your proficiency bonus instead of your warlock level, and a few cantrips and a short rest spell slot are handy for almost anyone.

I like to use a house rule that allows you to spend epic boons for more class levels, treating those extra levels like a gestalt character (so you remain a 20th level character; if you maxed out every class you'd have the HP and HD of a barbarian, no more, and the spell slots of a 20th level caster, and proficiency is still +6). This mostly alleviates issues such as not getting your class capstone. I like this house rule because it means I don't actually have to worry about what my build at 20 will look like, since I can still continue to get class levels. Most campaigns don't even reach 20 anyway, so it's a moot point, but it's nice having that reassurance just in case you do reach 20.

tiornys
2022-04-01, 12:32 AM
Hmm. I wonder if undead is worthy to be in the same category with hexblade and genie as far as one level dips go.
Not quite. Hexblade and Genie offer extremely strong packages even for a low-Cha character, but the strongest part of the Undead dip (inflicting Frightened as part of attacking) is tied to Cha-based saving throws. It's a great option for Cha-based characters who value the control/durability more than the damage benefits, but it's a lot less attractive for characters dabbling in Cha.

animorte
2022-04-01, 09:31 AM
Genie is a nice dip that fairly universal in its benefit, but there will be times where it's not the best option. It is a good dip for almost anyone who can afford, since most of what you're getting scales with your proficiency bonus instead of your warlock level, and a few cantrips and a short rest spell slot are handy for almost anyone.

This is exactly why it's so beneficial. Scaling with proficiency (which scales with PC level) instead of class level or a random ability mod.

Almost anyone? If you're not planning to dip for a different Warlock subclass, every class should start off as a level 1 Genie Warlock! Then multiclass (waive the Cha rule) into whatever your original plan was! :tongue:

Segev
2022-04-01, 10:23 AM
This is exactly why it's so beneficial. Scaling with proficiency (which scales with PC level) instead of class level or a random ability mod.

Almost anyone? If you're not planning to dip for a different Warlock subclass, every class should start off as a level 1 Genie Warlock! Then multiclass (waive the Cha rule) into whatever your original plan was! :tongue:

Rogue 1 offers a lot more at level 1 than it does if you multiclass into it later, so even if there's a good argument for dipping Genielock with Rogue, don't start with it at level 1.

Bard 1 may have a similar issue.

And if you're a mage, it becomes of more questionable utility. Sure, the extra few points of damage on your spell attack for your cantrip are nice, but you may prefer to have access to that fireball at level 5 rather than waiting for 6.

5eNeedsDarksun
2022-04-01, 11:53 AM
You mention the other parts of the class/ subclass briefly, but your assertion seems to be that averaging 4 extra hp of damage per round is the game changer that makes this dip better than others and than staying single class.

So, let's take a look at popular dips first:

Fighter: Dueling gives you the same 4 points of damage with extra attack. Archery style is worth more since you can more reliably hit and use power attack if you have SS. Then balance the remaining benefits of Fighter vs Warlock. Depending on build they are comparable.

Rogue: Again 1 sneak attack dice is roughly equal in damage benefit. Then balance remaining benefits of Rogue vs Warlock. Depending on the build they are comparable.

Hexblade: Dip is banned at our table for a reason. You can make a MAD character like a Paladin SAD with a 1 level dip. By 9 total levels (5 with custom lineage) you can be +5 to everything: Attacks, Damage, Spells, Channel Divinity, Aura (including all saves). Vs 4 points of damage?... Please.

Then there's the question of whether to stay single class or not. I'm not going to cover every class for every level, but let's just have a look at what you're missing out on Paladin, which would work for ability scores, through some of the mid game where most people are playing.
Is it worth the dip?

4th, 8th, and 12th levels: ASI/ Feat. Probably ahead with a dip
5th level: Extra attack, 1st level spell, two 2nd level spells. Absolutely not.
6th level: Aura of Protection. +3 or so to all of your saves and your melee buddies. Absolutely not.
7th level: Subclass auras and a 2nd level spell. Subclass dependent; some are great and some are OK
9th level: Two 3rd level spells. I know some may argue here, but I'm going to say the 3rd level spells are too valuable, so No.
10th level: Aura of Courage. Great when it works, but situational. I'll say yes, the dip wins here.
11th level: Improved Divine Smite and a 3rd level spell. The smite more than doubles the damage argument the OP made, so you're left evaluating the 3rd level spell vs. the other aspects of Warlock. I'll call this one a draw overall.

In summary the Dip is ahead at 4th, 8th, 12th, and 10th. 7th and 11th are draws, and Single Class is ahead at 5th, 6th, and 9th. So is it worth the dip? Maybe. Delaying 5th and 6th levels would be painful, while the benefit over the ASI levels is pretty minimal.

My overall summary would be that Warlock is frontloaded and it's not a surprise that it's a popular choice for a dip. But it's only comparable to other strong dips depending on build. A few points of damage is ok, but not really the game changer that other abilities are. And for a good class, like Paladin, it may not be worth the dip at all... unless you can dip Hexblade, as it's broken.

animorte
2022-04-01, 03:17 PM
My overall summary would be that Warlock is frontloaded and it's not a surprise that it's a popular choice for a dip. But it's only comparable to other strong dips depending on build. A few points of damage is ok, but not really the game changer that other abilities are. And for a good class, like Paladin, it may not be worth the dip at all... unless you can dip Hexblade, as it's broken.

The difference being that the Hexblade's Curse only works on 1 target for 1 minute per short rest. But then you get all the extra armor and shields, which is very good. And the class itself is catered more toward melee characters, not that it can't be beneficial otherwise.

Genie vessel has equal value for everyone (which is my major point), and in some cases provides for extreme utility based on your creativity. And the Genie's extra damage is relevant all the time.

5eNeedsDarksun
2022-04-01, 05:19 PM
The difference being that the Hexblade's Curse only works on 1 target for 1 minute per short rest. But then you get all the extra armor and shields, which is very good. And the clkass itself is catered more toward melee characters, not that it can't be beneficial otherwise.

Genie vessel has equal value for everyone (which is my major point), and in some cases provides for extreme utility based on your creativity. And the Genie's extra damage is relevant all the time.

The difference being that Hexblade turns a MAD character into a SAD one, which is effectively worth 2 additional ASIs/ Feats. +5 to everything is what's relevant all the time. (and I don't have to underline it to make it true).

animorte
2022-04-01, 06:48 PM
The difference being that Hexblade turns a MAD character into a SAD one, which is effectively worth 2 additional ASIs/ Feats. +5 to everything is what's relevant all the time. (and I don't have to underline it to make it true).

That using Charisma for attack/damage rolls (not everything) is a very good point, I grant you. But that's still only useful for weapon-primary characters.

My points for the Genie still stand very strong in that its value is there for everybody, no matter your combat methods, without requiring any specific consideration for ability mods.

5eNeedsDarksun
2022-04-01, 07:08 PM
That using Charisma for attack rolls (not everything) is a very good point, I grant you. But that's still only useful for weapon-primary characters.

My points for the Genie still stand very strong in that its value is there for everybody, no matter your combat methods, without requiring any specific consideration for ability mods.

Ok, so take Hexblade on a MAD character like Paladin out of the mix. We've done this at our table anyway.

Then assess the Genie vs other common dips or staying single classed, which I did in my first post upthread. It's good, but I'm not seeing how this is a 'must have' or way better than other dips or staying single classed, and a comparable damage bonus is common to a lot of dips.
Though in terms of staying single classed, I did assess it vs. single classed Paladin up to 12th level. In fairness, if you assessed a 1 level dip on say Fighters above 11th, then the Genie dip would look a lot better, but you could probably say that about a lot of dips for high level martials who have almost empty levels. 1 level of Cleric (pick a subclass) or Divine Soul is pretty darn good too when you can get a couple of castings of Bless per day + whatever other goodies the subclass provides.

animorte
2022-04-01, 07:19 PM
-snip-
1 level of Cleric (pick a subclass) or Divine Soul is pretty darn good too when you can get a couple of castings of Bless per day + whatever other goodies the subclass provides.

I started my part in this thread sort of as a joke, but I do indeed feel very strongly about the GenieLock (obviously).

I agree on all the points made that not every class gets greater benefits from the multiclass, that stays true a lot of the time.

And I can't help but very much agree there is a Cleric subclass 1-level dip out there for just about every possible character you could want. Clerics (imho) are probably the strongest class, though not quite my favorites.

AvvyR
2022-04-01, 07:45 PM
I agree with this. I think in general people who hang around build/optimization forums overdo it with multiclassing, like it's a reflexive thing rather than being really deeply considered against the cost.

For sure, and I think a lot of it is about only considering the end result, what it looks like at 20, or 11, or wherever you think you'll stop playing and less about what actual play looks like.

In one of my current games where we've gone 1-17 so far, I'm playing a Bladesinger. I took my first level as Fighter. CON saves, Second Wind, a few extra HP, fighting style, it gave so much it seemed silly not to take it. I've felt that one level progression loss every single level. Being one spell slot, one prepared slot, one spell level behind, it hurts every time and 16 wizard levels haven't softened the sting at all.

Dips are expensive.

animorte
2022-04-01, 07:47 PM
Dips are expensive.

Well you went Fighter. That certainly makes sense. Every dip has its cost and some just pay off a LOT more than others.

I feel like Martial classes dipping into other classes will always be more beneficial than Casters dipping.

Greywander
2022-04-01, 08:15 PM
Cleric, sorcerer, and warlock all give full caster progression, albeit with a number of differences. Cleric gives access to the full cleric list, limited only by how many spells you can prep. Sorcerer gets you an extra cantrip, but the leveled spells are pretty limited. Warlock is similar to sorcerer, but with one less cantrip and fewer slots, but in exchange your slot refreshes on a short rest. So, aside from spellcasting...

Cleric is an excellent dip on just about anyone, though definitely stronger on a caster. The most common dips seem to be 1 or 2 levels. Dipping 1 level nets you medium/heavy armor and shield proficiency, if you didn't already have it, as well as a subclass. It's also worth mentioning that the cleric list has some great support spells, like Bless, Shield of Faith, and Healing Word. Dipping a second level gets you your subclass Channel Divinity option, which vary wildly depending on your subclass. Clerics have a lot of good subclass options that don't depend so much on your cleric level, making them great for dips.

Sorcerer is another good dip, though not as good as cleric IMO. The most common dips seem to be 1, 2, or 3 levels. Dipping 1 level only gives you a subclass, besides spellcasting, though the additional cantrip and access to spells like Shield and Absorb Elements do make the spellcasting itself fairly appealing (dipping 1 level is like taking Magic Initiate twice). The value of a 1 level dip will depend heavily on your subclass, and sorcerer doesn't have as many good subclass options for dips. Dipping 2 levels only gets you Font of Magic, so I think only warlock multiclasses are interested in this so they can convert short rest slots into long rest slots. 3 levels gets you Metamagic, which is quite powerful but limited by your small number of sorcery points, and 3 levels is rather expensive for a dip.

Honestly, I don't see a lot of warlock dips, except Hexblades. Most warlock dips seem to be 2 or 3 levels, but a Hexblade dip sometimes stops at 1. The Genie patron provides another good option for a 1 level dip. Like the sorcerer, you don't get much with just 1 level, aside from your subclass, and there aren't a lot of good subclass options for dipping. 2 levels gets you invocations, which usually means Agonizing Blast and either Repelling Blast or Devil's Sight, but YMMV (Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces are also strong contenders). 3 levels gets you your pact boon, with Pact of the Chain being the strongest option (and it is very good, but like with Metamagic, 3 levels is an expensive dip). It's also worth noting that the warlock has perhaps the worst spellcasting of the three, getting the fewest cantrips, and fewer slots (albeit that come back on a short rest), while also being limited by spells known.

All in all, it's easy to see why cleric dips are so popular, especially on casters, and why warlock dips are substantially rarer, except on other CHA casters. Even Hexblade only really mattered to CHA-focused characters. Undead is another good option, but again only on CHA characters. GOO is good for anyone, but fairly lackluster, especially now that we have the Telepathic feat. Genie is probably the first warlock patron that makes a 1 level dip worthwhile on any build, not just CHA builds.

Damon_Tor
2022-04-01, 11:59 PM
I'm just not going to get very excited about added damage. For a multiclass to be worth my time I'm going to need it to be multiplicative: it either needs to add something to all my attacks (preferably dice for crit purposes) or it needs to add another attack. The fact that it's just 1 level is barely relevant: I have trouble putting off ASIs, which means I have a strong pull towards a 4 level minimum.

And then there's the roleplay. At least the hexblade doesn't have a backstory that begs the DM to screw with you. At least archfey and great old ones are far enough removed from you and whatever it is you're doing to leave you alone most of the time. But this is a f***ing genie... And it lives in your pocket. A genie. I'm a pretty laid back DM, but if a player informed me that he has a genie now I would practically be obligated to mess with him. Because it's a goddamn genie. And it lives in his pocket.

Greywander
2022-04-02, 12:27 AM
The genie does not live in your pocket. At some undisclosed time in the past, you made an undisclosed deal with a genie, performed some undisclosed service, and got power in exchange. All warlock patrons work like this. You can integrate it more into your backstory, but sometimes you just want the mechanics of something without necessarily bringing in the flavor.

Quick example: I had a concept for a literal dragon build that was a winged tiefling Dragon monk, but refluffed to be a dragon. You know what dragons have? Hoards. But where does an adventuring dragon keep their hoard? It should would be awfully convenient if I could have some kind of portable lair to store my hoard in. How I was going to fluff it was that he got a powerful item (the vessel) from a back alley merchant who might have been a fiend in disguise giving out such items in exchange for curses, but the curse in question was half his lifespan, and dragons don't have a limit to their lifespan (I think). The cursed item merchant isn't very good at his job, as this isn't the first time he's given out an item in exchange for an ineffective or even beneficial "curse". He could even make for a fun recurring NPC who hands out weird or less used magic items in exchange for quirky curses on the players.

As for the damage, it's more than you think it is. +6 is roughly comparable to +1d12 or +2d6. I've also pointed out why it's better as a single big bonus to the first hit, instead of a smaller bonus to each hit. It's comparable to the Dueling fighting style on a character with four attacks, but if you have fewer attacks than that it's actually stronger than Dueling. But having more attacks also increases the odds of hitting at least once go way up, causing that +6 bonus to trend toward a straight +6 to DPR. When average DPR at 20 is around 20-some damage, +6 is pretty significant (around 20-25% extra damage). There just aren't a lot of ways to multiclass into an additional attack or bonus damage to each attack. Extra Attack doesn't stack, and even if it did it would require a whopping 5 levels to get. Improved Divine Smite requires even more, at 11 levels. Rage can get you a bonus on each attack, but it's not that strong unless you invest deeply into barbarian.

Basically, this is one of the strongest damage boosts you can get with a 1 level dip, and it applies to any kind of attack, weapon or spell or unarmed strike. And it stacks with any other bonus you might have.

animorte
2022-04-02, 12:37 AM
The genie does not live in your pocket. At some undisclosed time in the past, you made an undisclosed deal with a genie, performed some undisclosed service, and got power in exchange. All warlock patrons work like this. You can integrate it more into your backstory, but sometimes you just want the mechanics of something without necessarily bringing in the flavor.

Yes, the Genie grants you your own magical vessel, not theirs. A safe haven that can grant you a long rest at level 1 (if you're an elf)!