Why not negotiate with Xykon?

[PontificatusRex]

So, I don't think I've seen anyone bring this up, but it seems like an obvious tactic to me.

We (and Roy) know Xykon is not interested in destroying the world. A lot of his best evil happened there. And we know that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak and hasn't for a very long time - for very good reason, since Redcloak has been deceiving him from the beginning. Xykon is savvy enough to know something is up, even if he doesn't know what.

So starting with a few Sending spells, the Order can start explaining what's at stake and that the gods will destroy the world if they think the Snarl might get loose. Why would Xykon not believe them? It's a pretty logical chain of causality, and Xykon is a practical guy. Redcloak is a zealot wracked by guilt and the need to prove that his past misdeeds were worth the sacrifice, but I can't think of anyone who would care less about sunken costs less than Xykon (except possibly Belkar).

And the Order can also explain that Xykon can't bolt to another plane if things go bad - Thor knows about his hidden fortress on the Astral Plane and now so does Durkon. Merely mentioning that they know of its existence would probably do a lot to shake Xykon up. The gods mindwipe all the Outsiders every time they create a new world, they're not going to let a loose cannon like an epic level lich who remembers the previous universe run around, are they?

Also, and perhaps most importantly, Xykon is exactly like Roy - he's a talky man. This is a lich who kept saying "Hey, let's chill out and talk about this" while getting hit in the face with a sword during the battle of Azure City. He also spent a lot of focus chatting with Varsuvius when they attacked with the power of the Soul Splice - a credible threat, but Xykon still was more interested in "Why are you doing this?" than the actual battle. Granted, both times Xykon was feeling that he was not actually threatened by his opponents, but when his phylactery was in danger he got deadly serious - and if the Order simply convinces him of the truth, I think he would get pretty darn serious again in the Order's favor. And I will say again, why would he not believe them? He is not an idealogue committed to a cause, he's just a self-aware villain who is following a scheme that fell in his lap because he has nothing better to do. I really think Xykon would still be just as happy doing some random evil stuff while waiting for Roy to level up enough to be a good challenge, he's like Elan that way.

Heck, Xykon would probably have more luck convincing Redcloak to help the gods than Durkon did. I don't think it's too much of a stretch: "I want to keep existing and not go to the Lower Planes for punishment, therefore the world has to keep existing. So if you don't lend your Dark One purple energy to create new Gates, I am going to level Gobbotopia to the last mewling goblin infant, then go kill every other goblin I can find." Redcloak might not believe Durkon's promises, but you know he'll believe Xykon's threats.

So, trying to defeat Xykon in battle seems like a massive longshot. Telling Xykon the truth and convincing him that your interests are aligned in this issue seems far more likely to succeed.

[hroþila]

On paper, this makes sense, and if Roy isn't still somewhat emotionally invested in destroying Xykon it could happen. At least as a last-ditch effort, I could see the Order doing it.

In practice, Xykon knows since day 1 that the destruction of the world and total oblivion is a possible outcome here. I don't think he's going to stop unless he learns that the Plan can't actually do what he thinks, and if he learns that, the risk of Xykon just offing Redcloak is too great, I think. Yes, he's interested in surviving and doesn't want to destroy the world, but if he doesn't buy 100% of what the Order tells him, he can still believe he'll be fine in his Astral Fortress (and if the Order knows about it, well, he can build another one somewhere else), or that Jirix can do the job just fine (because he can probably cast the Dark One's ritual, but he can't do what Thor needs, and the Dark One could stop granting him spells altogether if he tries to replace Redcloak), or what have you.

Your point still stands though - is all of this necessarily more of a long shot than beating Team Evil in a straight fight? Maybe not.
But the Order is not planning to engage Team Evil in a straight fight either.

[elros]

I don't see Roy talking to Xykon, but I am looking forward to seeing how Xykon reacts when he finds out that Redcloak's plan will not help him. Given his desire to avoid going to the lower planes, I see him trying to attack the gods directly. We know he can plane shift, and his main tactic is charging headfirst and slinging spells, so he may do that.

[Fyraltari]

I don't see Roy talking to Xykon, but I am looking forward to seeing how Xykon reacts when he finds out that Redcloak's plan will not help him. Given his desire to avoid going to the lower planes, I see him trying to attack the gods directly. We know he can plane shift, and his main tactic is charging headfirst and slinging spells, so he may do that.

Xykon is very confident in his ability, but I doubt it's to the point of thinking he can take a straight-up god in one-to-one combat, let alone all three pantheons.

[Precure]

But then we can't justify Roy's personal quest of revenge as something selfless as saving the world. :smallwink:

Then again, Xykon might try to pull a Raistlin if he learns the truth.

[brian 333]

Credibility is the main issue. Like when Redcloak doubled down after hearing that the gods were afraid, Xykon might believe that his scheme is working and that his best course is to go harder and faster to maintain the initiative.

What could anyone in The Order, (whom he might vaguely recall as a bunch of low-level wannabes that got lucky in Dorukon's Dungeon,) say that would convince him to abandon a decades-long quest now that he is on the cusp of victory? And in saying it, why would he believe them?

For any negotiation to succeed, the negotiators must bring credibility to the table. Repeating what some guy told you outside a bar somewhere lacks credibility.

[dancrilis]

What could anyone in The Order, (whom he might vaguely recall as a bunch of low-level wannabes that got lucky in Dorukon's Dungeon,) say that would convince him to abandon a decades-long quest now that he is on the cusp of victory? And in saying it, why would he believe them?


Likely nothing - but if the last paladin of a conquered city beaten but not broken who has vowed to stop the evil lich who wiped out his holy order shows up and begs for an audience he might be granted one and if he lays out what he genuinely believes to the the truth despite knowing it is likely his last action whether he is believed or not - well he might be believed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I was going to disagree on seeing the title, but your arguments were pretty persuasive, OP.

Xykon is pure evil, but he does care more about personal survival than Redcloak. He also knows he cannot defeat the gods unless he had the Snarl already under his control.

If he knew it didn't work that way, then he would realize he has no weapon against the Gods and they are minutes away from obliterating him just to make sure.

He's irredeemably evil, but Redcloak's "evil for a good cause" fanaticism is proving to be irrational.

Xykon is capable of being selfishly rational. That is a significant advantage here.

[Wintermoot]

Sure Xykon is capable of being rational, but it isn't a certainty.

He's a very chaotic, random fellow who values his own amusement over achieving ends.

I find it highly suspect he would believe "the truth" even if explained to him, and plausible that, when confronted with his defeat, he'd be willing to take out the world with him by triggering the God's ultimatum. After all, his defeat almost certainly means his destruction and if he can't exist, no one else should either.

That leaves aside the point that he can transition to another plane at more or less will, and has set up a base of operations elsewhere. So there's really no reason to not frag redcloak, frag the order, frag the gate and teleport away to sit and fume on his astral throne while the Gods reset the world. Yes, we haven't verified whether or not the Gods resetting this ONE prime material plane results in a reset of the outer planes, but Rich skews fairly stringently to the traditional D&D planescape setup and in that setup, he'd be fine.

I find it implausible that, when negotiated with and informed of "the truth", his response would be to simply frag redcloak and fly off to go pursue other ends. But its possible, just not very plausible IMO. He doesn't take defeat well and takes embarrassment even less well.

All that being said, I personally am of the camp that Roy's need to confront and defeat Xykon is illogical and there are other, better, ways to deal with this issue.

To start with, team Evil simply does NOT have a WAY to find their way into the inner workings of the tomb. It takes a high level thief with find traps to figure it out. It's clear that trueseeing, detect magic, etc don't get you there. So, if the order hadn't shown up, team evil would've spent another few weeks working their way through the doors before realizing that something weird is going on (due to the monster's fake painted marks), then another few weeks REDOING the doors being more careful about which ones they've done. And then... who knows? Given history, Redcloak might come to the conclusion that the gate is somewhere else entirely and they'd have to wander off to do more investigation/research. Maybe they'd come back with a high level thief and figure out the trap. Maybe they'd just start meteor swarming their way through the walls. But it would take another few weeks at the least.

The tomb's defense WAS WORKING. Of course, now with the empirical evidence of the Order's "disappearance" when entering a tomb door, it makes it MORE likely that team evil figure it out. You know what MIGHT work even though trueseeing and detect magic don't? A second level clerical find traps spell. Something that redcloak, for some reason, hasn't tried yet (probably because he thinks it's useless and expects trueseeing to uncover any trap worth avoiding). Now perhaps he will.

For that several weeks, the Order could be figuring out how to rebuild the other gates. Or they could sneak in and steal Xykon's gem to free Lirian and Dorokun so THEY could remake a gate. Honestly, IMO, that's where their focus should be. How do we get that gem.

Regardless, it is what it is. I don't think trying to negotiate with Xykon gets them closer to safety.

[Darth Paul]

He's a very chaotic, random fellow who values his own amusement over achieving ends.

I find it highly suspect he would believe "the truth" even if explained to him, and plausible that, when confronted with his defeat, he'd be willing to take out the world with him by triggering the God's ultimatum. After all, his defeat almost certainly means his destruction and if he can't exist, no one else should either.



Yep, Xykon can no more be counted on to act rationally than can Redcloak. Why might Xykon just trigger the end of everything? "Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."



Or they could sneak in and steal Xykon's gem to free Lirian and Dorokun so THEY could remake a gate. Honestly, IMO, that's where their focus should be. How do we get that gem.



Does the Order know about the gem? If so, I missed where they found out (or I just misremember).

[dancrilis]

Does the Order know about the gem? If so, I missed where they found out (or I just misremember).

They don't and even if they did know about them and were able to steal the gem they would still have to find someone capable of casting True Resurrection in Order to bring them back given they have none of their remains - which brings us back to Redcloak as the only known cleric with a level high enough to cast it.

[hungrycrow]

"I'm certainly not about to destroy it unless I get really, REALLY bored." Xykon isn't a rational actor at all, there are definitely scenarios where he realizes he can't control the world and decides to destroy it anyway. He might do it out of frustration for the waste of his time. He might try to use the threat of reaching the gate as some sort of blackmail chip. Lots of ways that could go wrong.

Remember also that he thinks his phylactery is in his astral fortress. Even if the world gets destroyed without warning, he'd just revive and wait around for the next one.

[Lord Raziere]

problem with this:
1. Redcloak is a logical arguer and knows how to pull Xykon's strings better than anyone. He successfully convinced Xkyon to not be concerned about him killing his necromancer friend.....by admitting to it and acting like its not a big deal. he probably has some plan to convince Xykon not to negotiate with the heroes.

2. Xykon is kind of a jerk, to put it lightly. he is capable of very cruel and despicable acts when he feels the need or the want. informing him of the truth, that his entire plan has been for nought and that Redcloak has played him for a fool....well its a question of what exactly he'd do to Redcloak that could turn the outcome in his favor and how far he'd go to do it. destroying the gate then teleporting out to some other plane to await the creation of the next world is a simple solution sure, but what if Xykon gets more creative in his cruelty than that? what if he uses threats and force to make Redcloak teleport the gate to a DIFFERENT god then teleport there, destroy that gate as retaliation against the deities themselves? or is just plain spiteful and decides to go along with Redcloak's plan, but send the Dark One a gate that he makes sure is about to blow up- then when it teleports there it blows up, and then the Snarl kills Redcloaks god, thus screwing over everyone involved.

like this is a Chaotic Evil jerk of the highest caliber who brags about being capital E-evil. its highly unlikely he'd take the reasonable option out of this, unlikely that he wouldn't do something dramatic, petty and utterly completely abhorrent in response to learning such information. this is a guy who killed a lizardfolk for having an overly long name when making evil plan offers when he was still alive and has only gotten worse since then.

like what makes you think he'd be grateful to heroes if they informed him of this? they're still heroes. at the end of the day, they're still on opposite sides of the alignment pool, and knows they'd still try and to track him down to kill him after all this is over. its very possible he'd just say "thanks for the info. meteor swarm, suckers." like thats giving up this information for free to him, to do whatever he wants with, and once he has it.....he has no need to honor anything with Roy. to his mind they're fools who'd give up this information and he owes them precisely jack squat. team up with the order to take down redcloak then suddenly kill Redcloak when he is captured to screw the order over, kill the OOTS, fly off having used them both to come out on top. World technically saved, but bad end nonetheless.

the enemy of Xykon's enemy is his enemies enemy, nothing more, nothing less.

[PontificatusRex]

Remember also that he thinks his phylactery is in his astral fortress. Even if the world gets destroyed without warning, he'd just revive and wait around for the next one.

As I mentioned, the gods know about his fortress, and Durkon knows they know so he can bring that fact to the table.

Thor also told Durkon that the gods mindwipe all the outsiders every time they create a new world - they do a hard reset. As I said, Xykon would be too big a loose end to leave alone and if the Order can get Xykon to accept the truth of the overall situation I don't think it would be hard to convince him of that detail.

Some folks are saying that Xykon can't be trusted to act rationally but I don't see it that way at all. He plays games and acts goofy because it amuses him and he can get away with it, but whenever his actual survival his threatened he doesn't fool around. The only times I can think of when he really has acted irrationally is when he gets annoyed at Redcloak and ignores what might be a better course of action that RC suggests - which actually works in the Order's favor.

Also, Roy doesn't need to be saving all creation from Xykon for his quest to destroy him transcend his personal vendetta. Evil mass murderer needs to be stopped and all that. And Superman has even teamed up with Lex Luthor when Darkseid came to town.

[Wraithfighter]

I mean, one major reason is that he'd probably find the notion of the Snarl devouring an entire heaven's worth of souls and slaughtering a few gods to be super epic?

Xykon's fate isn't tied to the world. He has the power to plane shift back to his fortress, he can live forever, he has epic level magic, and while he's not strong enough to defeat any gods (...yet), he just needs to stay out of their way for a while. Redcloak at least cares about his people.

[Lord Raziere]

point 3...
Vaarsuvius's presence.
Xykon: "aren't you that wizard who threw my phylactery into the sewer and made me wait for weeks for goblins to search for it by hand?"
V: "....No?"
Xykon: "ah ah ah.....no lying. I don't want to hear anything you losers have to say. do you any idea the trouble you caused me with that little stunt? I think its time I finally got around to the kill that was stolen from me"

he isn't going to forget that. and he was more ticked about it than what Roy did to him. they might not be able to negotiate with him if he decides to kill V on sight.

[faustin]

Xykon isn't the Joker. For all his talk with Roy about "ending the world if really, really bored", he totally panicked when his phylactery almost ended in the Snarl, so let's assume he is in fact pretty invested in his own survival.

And discovering the Gods know about his fortress means they either have him monitored 24h or can find him and his phylactery regardless of how many wards he can come up with. Because, you know, Gods.

And if there is a worse fate than the Nine Hells, is to become the collective chew toy of the three pantheons.

Yes, I think Xykon may be willing to listen, after all.

[hungrycrow]

As I mentioned, the gods know about his fortress, and Durkon knows they know so he can bring that fact to the table.

Sorry, missed that paragraph. That said, does Durkon know that? Characters don't remember everything when they get resurrected, and I'm not sure an offhand comment about the fortress is one of the things that would stick.


Some folks are saying that Xykon can't be trusted to act rationally but I don't see it that way at all. He plays games and acts goofy because it amuses him and he can get away with it, but whenever his actual survival his threatened he doesn't fool around. The only times I can think of when he really has acted irrationally is when he gets annoyed at Redcloak and ignores what might be a better course of action that RC suggests - which actually works in the Order's favor.

When Xykon learned being a lich meant no longer enjoying coffee, he immediately murdered a waitress. Imagine what he'd do if he realized his entire unlife's work was for nothing. I read Xykon the other way: his default reaction to problems is brutal violence towards anyone around him, and the only thing keeping him semi-reasonable is his goofy love of cliched villainy. Take that away and he's just a monster. Sure it'd be better logically for him to just walk away and make different plans, but once the Order gets him to believe the shocking truth part they might lose the chance to influence him with more logic.

[Peelee]

Sorry, missed that paragraph. That said, does Durkon know that? Characters don't remember everything when they get resurrected, and I'm not sure an offhand comment about the fortress is one of the things that would stick.

Characters don't remember everything about Celestia. This may or may not be true for other afterlife planes, but we do know it's not true for the "waiting rooms" outside the afterlife planes. Durkon hadn't crossed the rainbow bridge yet. No reason to think he doesn't remember that whole encounter as well as he can remember anything else.

[Fyraltari]

Characters don't remember everything about Celestia. This may or may not be true for other afterlife planes, but we do know it's not true for the "waiting rooms" outside the afterlife planes. Durkon hadn't crossed the rainbow bridge yet. No reason to think he doesn't remember that whole encounter as well as he can remember anything else.

Furthermore, Jirix could remember his meeting with his deity despite it taking place among the faithful dead (so beyond the "waiting room"), implying that gods have the ability to preserve the memories of the resurectee if they wish to. Which Thor likely would have done for the entire conversation if that were necessary.

Finally, when Thor brought up the astral fortress, he told Durkon to "act surprised if it comes up" which means that Durkon would remember this bit of information.

[woweedd]

Nah. Xykon is a monster who needs to die for the sake of everyone, every second he LIVES is a threat to everyone. Even if he learned Redcloak's plan wouldn't do what he wanted, he'd probably just kill Redcloak and start on some new scheme.

[Psyren]

To negotiate with anyone, you need to have something they want. For Xykon, the only thing they can really offer is to not destroy him, which is a capability they're unsure they even possess - and if they can, there's conversely nothing Xykon can offer that they want. It's doomed before it starts.

All Xykon really wants is to (un)live forever and keep being a jerk (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), which is a nonstarter (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) as far as the heroes are concerned.

[Lord Raziere]

To negotiate with anyone, you need to have something they want. For Xykon, the only thing they can really offer is to not destroy him, which is a capability they're unsure they even possess - and if they can, there's conversely nothing Xykon can offer that they want. It's doomed before it starts.

All Xykon really wants is to (un)live forever and keep being a jerk (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), which is a nonstarter (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) as far as the heroes are concerned.

Exactly.

Xykon is in the position of power and has no reason to leave them alive once they inform him of these events. sure he probably won't destroy the world once informed, but that just means he has no reason to humor the plot he is currently the main villain of and just kill everyone involved. why leave these heroic adventurers trying to kill him alive so they could potentially kill him later? his goals will just make him do more cartoonish evil elsewhere and as long as he is informed now.....well the plan is off. but that doesn't mean he is harmless. just means the gods won't blow things up, he is still a very evil lich whose idea of a fun time is sadistic torture for entertainment. if they're going to try to kill him, they might as well do it now.

like a truly evil person like Xykon would go "well it seems I have the world hostage then and I can demand anything of you to convince me to leave Redcloak to you so.....how many and which continents are you offering for me to rule?" thats the kind of thing you'd have to entice him with, because he was wanting to get world domination out of this. the Order can't provide that.

[drazen]

I have been of the belief that there will be negotiations to defeat Xykon -- but they would be for him taking over for Hel, who is wasting away.

Being raised as the new Northern God of Death and Disease is much better than eternal hell, right?

Now THAT might be enough to get him to think it is better than a long time as the bony undead king of a nightmare world that will get unraveled eventually (actually, far sooner than he thinks).

[Roland Itiative]

My guess is that if such a situation happens, Xykon would just think the Order is trying to trick him. Sure, he knows he's plotting against the gods, and probably realises that at some point they could move out against him, but I'm sure he's more willing to deal with it when it happens than just accepting defeat from a group of heroes saying the gods would be mad.

And then, even if he does believe it, they've only bought this world a few years at most. Four out of the five Gates are destroyed, at least one of the Rifts is already gigantic, this world probably won't last long without Thor's idea working out, and Xykon cannot help with that at all.

[halfeye]

I have been of the belief that there will be negotiations to defeat Xykon -- but they would be for him taking over for Hel, who is wasting away.

Hel is related to the rest of the Northern gods, Xykon isn't, I don't think that option is likely, though obviously nothing is impossible.


And then, even if he does believe it, they've only bought this world a few years at most. Four out of the five Gates are destroyed, at least one of the Rifts is already gigantic, this world probably won't last long without Thor's idea working out, and Xykon cannot help with that at all.

Xykon could take part in rebuilding the gates, he's a very strong magic user, and the Snarl is no respecter of alignments.


like a truly evil person like Xykon would go "well it seems I have the world hostage then and I can demand anything of you to convince me to leave Redcloak to you so.....how many and which continents are you offering for me to rule?" thats the kind of thing you'd have to entice him with, because he was wanting to get world domination out of this. the Order can't provide that.

Replace Tarquin with Xykon? I don't expect to see that, but it seems as if it doesn't make the world much worse.

[Mike Havran]

Do our heroes even have significant reason to believe Xykon is being deceived by Redcloak? They know the Ritual helps the Dark One, but why should they assume Xykon is not on board with this? After all, a bunch of devoured Gods is hilarious.

[Psyren]

I have been of the belief that there will be negotiations to defeat Xykon -- but they would be for him taking over for Hel, who is wasting away.

Being raised as the new Northern God of Death and Disease is much better than eternal hell, right?

Now THAT might be enough to get him to think it is better than a long time as the bony undead king of a nightmare world that will get unraveled eventually (actually, far sooner than he thinks).

I can't even begin to think how they'd negotiate that. For one thing, Hel actually dying would require this world to get thrown away, at which point both Xykon and the Order are taken care of.

[Crimsonmantle]

When Xykon learned being a lich meant no longer enjoying coffee, he immediately murdered a waitress. Imagine what he'd do if he realized his entire unlife's work was for nothing.
The two are pretty much on the same order of magnitude - trust me, I'm caffeine-dependent - so murder another waitress (messenger) I guess?

[Mechalich]

Do our heroes even have significant reason to believe Xykon is being deceived by Redcloak? They know the Ritual helps the Dark One, but why should they assume Xykon is not on board with this? After all, a bunch of devoured Gods is hilarious.

I suppose it depends on how thoroughly they were involved with O-Chul's debriefing. O-Chul is very aware that Redcloak is fully capable of leading Xykon around by the hole-in-his-skull-where-his-nose-used-to-be and that given the chance Xykon is completely inclined to indulge in small pleasures at the expense his grand plans (in fairness to Xykon, he is a lich, it's not like he can't get around to it later). Some potentially the heroes do have reason to believe that Redcloak and Xykon have points of conflict between them, though they probably underestimate how far it goes.

[Emmit Svenson]

...the Order can start explaining what's at stake and that the gods will destroy the world if they think the Snarl might get loose....



So tell Xykon that he doesn't even need Redcloak, that he can hold the world hostage by threatening to destroy the last Gate?

Or that if he's going down, he can avenge himself by destroying the last gate as he goes? Remember, he thinks his phylactery is safely stashed on the astral plane, well away from the Snarl.

[Roland Itiative]

Xykon could take part in rebuilding the gates, he's a very strong magic user, and the Snarl is no respecter of alignments.
Rebuilding the Gates as they were before is just adding another temporary stopgap, it would add a few years to the world, but would in no way be a permanent solution. For that, they need Redcloak, and only Redcloak.

[halfeye]

Rebuilding the Gates as they were before is just adding another temporary stopgap, it would add a few years to the world, but would in no way be a permanent solution. For that, they need Redcloak, and only Redcloak.
I didn't say they don't need Redcloak, you said that there is nothing Xykon would be useful for, I am saying yes, they probably need Redcloak, but Xykon is probably the strongest arcane caster (outside the fiends) in the story, so if he decided to be helpful he could be used.

[Mike Havran]

... Xykon is probably the strongest arcane caster (outside the fiends) in the story, so if he decided to be helpful he could be used.

:roy: But ... you've met Xykon, right?

[halfeye]

:roy: But ... you've met Xykon, right?

Personally? Nope. I've seen him in the comic, and he's awful, I'm not saying it's likely he would want to help, I am saying that there's not nothing he could do, if he wanted to.

[Smoutwortel]

Sure Xykon is capable of being rational, but it isn't a certainty.

He's a very chaotic, random fellow who values his own amusement over achieving ends.

I find it highly suspect he would believe "the truth" even if explained to him, and plausible that, when confronted with his defeat, he'd be willing to take out the world with him by triggering the God's ultimatum. After all, his defeat almost certainly means his destruction and if he can't exist, no one else should either.

That leaves aside the point that he can transition to another plane at more or less will, and has set up a base of operations elsewhere. So there's really no reason to not frag redcloak, frag the order, frag the gate and teleport away to sit and fume on his astral throne while the Gods reset the world. Yes, we haven't verified whether or not the Gods resetting this ONE prime material plane results in a reset of the outer planes, but Rich skews fairly stringently to the traditional D&D planescape setup and in that setup, he'd be fine.

I find it implausible that, when negotiated with and informed of "the truth", his response would be to simply frag redcloak and fly off to go pursue other ends. But its possible, just not very plausible IMO. He doesn't take defeat well and takes embarrassment even less well.

All that being said, I personally am of the camp that Roy's need to confront and defeat Xykon is illogical and there are other, better, ways to deal with this issue.

To start with, team Evil simply does NOT have a WAY to find their way into the inner workings of the tomb. It takes a high level thief with find traps to figure it out. It's clear that trueseeing, detect magic, etc don't get you there. So, if the order hadn't shown up, team evil would've spent another few weeks working their way through the doors before realizing that something weird is going on (due to the monster's fake painted marks), then another few weeks REDOING the doors being more careful about which ones they've done. And then... who knows? Given history, Redcloak might come to the conclusion that the gate is somewhere else entirely and they'd have to wander off to do more investigation/research. Maybe they'd come back with a high level thief and figure out the trap. Maybe they'd just start meteor swarming their way through the walls. But it would take another few weeks at the least.

The tomb's defense WAS WORKING. Of course, now with the empirical evidence of the Order's "disappearance" when entering a tomb door, it makes it MORE likely that team evil figure it out. You know what MIGHT work even though trueseeing and detect magic don't? A second level clerical find traps spell. Something that redcloak, for some reason, hasn't tried yet (probably because he thinks it's useless and expects trueseeing to uncover any trap worth avoiding). Now perhaps he will.

For that several weeks, the Order could be figuring out how to rebuild the other gates. Or they could sneak in and steal Xykon's gem to free Lirian and Dorokun so THEY could remake a gate. Honestly, IMO, that's where their focus should be. How do we get that gem.

Regardless, it is what it is. I don't think trying to negotiate with Xykon gets them closer to safety.

Although I agree the order is a bunch of screw ups. Disappearing when running in the open field just means they have access to fast travel spells and mind blank like all high level adventurers.

[dancrilis]

The most likely problem with negotiating with Xykon for the Order is that Roy is fairly bigoted and his experience with the vampires is unlikely to have made him less so.

Here in panel 2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) Roy gives a very basic opinion of Xykon based on no real knowledge of him (he waited patiently inside the Dorukan's dungeon, waited patiently in Azure City and is now patiently moving through Serini's dungeons) but worse in panel 5 (and 7) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) he lays out a lot of wrong regarding Xykon and none of it based on reason or data (he is in fact a human souled corpse animated by magic who doesn't really care about their destruction at all).

As long as Roy holds this to be the case instead of looking at Xykon as just like any other human with a template then any discussions are likely fruitless.

[KorvinStarmast]

The most likely problem with negotiating with Xykon for the Order is that Roy is fairly bigoted and his experience with the vampires is unlikely to have made him less so.
Face, meet palm. You might want to recalibrate your viewing lenses: this story is about the Order of the Stick, who have banded together to frustrate Xykon's plan of world domination by destroying him. See the strip where Roy tore up the contracts. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html)

All that being said, I personally am of the camp that Roy's need to confront and defeat Xykon is illogical and there are other, better, ways to deal with this issue. Not illogical. Remember what genre you are dealing with here: heroic fantasy at a high level within a D&D informed context. And self aware parody to allow for humor.
With that in mind, see above response to dancrilis.
While the blood oath issue was an initial motive, Roy in his discussions with his father, contentious ones, set aside that obligation for Roy to, of his own free will, decide that a world without Xykon is a better world for good and sufficient reasons, expressed on screen in a variety of strips. They were challenged as to why - why save the world? - by, among others, the Mechane's crew and stood by it. It's the whole point of the story.

For that several weeks, the Order could be figuring out how to rebuild the other gates. Since there are no epic Divine and Arcane casters to hand to cooperatively do that, your assumption of there being a means to do that fails every test. And again, this is the story of the Order of the Stick, not the story of Wizard McWizardson and Cleric McClericson who will save the world if only the Order asks them to.

[Wintermoot]

Not illogical. Remember what genre you are dealing with here: heroic fantasy at a high level within a D&D informed context. And self aware parody to allow for humor.

Just because something fits the nature of the narrative we are in doesn't make it "logical". There are a wealth of ways for the Order to advance their goals. Confronting the much more powerful Xykon in a direct confrontation is pretty low down the list on viable/worthwhile uses of their time and resources. So it is absolutely illogical for them to choose that path at the expense of all others. The fact that they are doing so because "its a story and that's what they do in stories" doesn't make it logical.



Since there are no epic Divine and Arcane casters to hand to cooperatively do that, your assumption of there being a means to do that fails every test. And again, this is the story of the Order of the Stick, not the story of Wizard McWizardson and Cleric McClericson who will save the world if only the Order asks them to.

Nothing in the story so far says that the casters were epic when they made the gate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. to say that that "fails every test" is pretty obviously wrong and says more about your assumptions than mine.

[dmc91356]

Nothing in the story so far says that the casters were epic when they made the gate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. to say that that "fails every test" is pretty obviously wrong and says more about your assumptions than mine.

I don't think they were necessarily epic, but the story does significantly suggest that a minimum of 9th level spells are needed to close rifts. Whether that is the same thing as a gate, well, who knows? If 9th level spells are needed, the OOTS is significantly not there yet unless you think that they have reached the level to cast such spells but have not done so, which seems a little wonky to me but YMMV.


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html (Third to last panel.)

[dancrilis]

Nothing in the story so far says that the casters were epic when they made the gate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. to say that that "fails every test" is pretty obviously wrong and says more about your assumptions than mine.

Not quite true.

Page 73 panel 3 - Redcloak indicates that if both he and Xykon were epic they could try to rebuild a gate and even then they would need to research how.

Redcloak could be wrong but there is no reason to suspect that he is.

[PandaKnight]

As long as Roy holds this to be the case instead of looking at Xykon as just like any other human with a template then any discussions are likely fruitless.
Tbh, as the unfortunate story of Tsukiho shows to us, Roy's take is way closer to Xykon's nature than yours.

[The Extinguisher]

Just because something fits the nature of the narrative we are in doesn't make it "logical". There are a wealth of ways for the Order to advance their goals. Confronting the much more powerful Xykon in a direct confrontation is pretty low down the list on viable/worthwhile uses of their time and resources. So it is absolutely illogical for them to choose that path at the expense of all others. The fact that they are doing so because "its a story and that's what they do in stories" doesn't make it logical.


Actually "it's a story and thats what they do in stories" is the only thing that is logical. The comic has shown time and time again that being Genre Savvy, being about to manipulate narrative conventions, and acting as if you are a character in a story (which, to be clear, they literally are), are the best ways to succeed in this world. Even if you wanna argue from a pure Watsonian perspective (ew, why would you?), proceeding as if they are Heroes is one of the most impactful thing they can do.

[Psyren]

Just because something fits the nature of the narrative we are in doesn't make it "logical". There are a wealth of ways for the Order to advance their goals. Confronting the much more powerful Xykon in a direct confrontation is pretty low down the list on viable/worthwhile uses of their time and resources. So it is absolutely illogical for them to choose that path at the expense of all others. The fact that they are doing so because "its a story and that's what they do in stories" doesn't make it logical.

1) Except it does, for their world, where narrative tropes and rule of funny are essentially laws of physics.

2) I would definitely love to read "the list of more viable/worthwhile uses of their time" you're referring to. I could use a good laugh.

[Wintermoot]

1) Except it does, for their world, where narrative tropes and rule of funny are essentially laws of physics.

Quite a lot of the Order's success has come from subverting or going AGAINST those tropes rather than diving straight into them. Even Elan said that when he summoned Julio Scoundral in the fight with his Dad. But sure, whatever you say.


2) I would definitely love to read "the list of more viable/worthwhile uses of their time" you're referring to. I could use a good laugh.

More viable than trying to go toe to toe with the epic level lich?


Drive a wedge between Xykon and Redcloak, forcing Redcloak to rethink his sunk cost fallacy
Recruit or try to recruit the MitD
Work to enhance the defenses of Kragor's tomb that A> have been working and B> team evil demonstrably have no way to detect
Free Dorukan and Lillian from the gem (yes I know there is a strong possibility they don't know about that at this point)
While negotiating with the Lich is probably a no go, slipping him some information might not be a bad idea. Though this is tough when you want redcloak alive.



Yes, most of those have their own issues, but so does "lets try to fight the epic lich" and most of this list allow a do-over if it goes south. The only reasonable reason you would pick "fight Xykon" over any of these would be "because it's an action story and that's what's supposed to happen!" so, yeah, if that's your horse go ahead and ride it. *shrug*

But sure, whatever you say, you are being needlessly hostile and abrasive to me and I don't know why. I do know that if I said to someone "your opinion is laughable", I'd be scrubbed and infracted. So it doesn't behoove me to treat you the same way you treat others. So you go be yourself and leave me out of it.

[Psyren]

Drive a wedge between Xykon and Redcloak, forcing Redcloak to rethink his sunk cost fallacy

You mean the thing Durkon literally tried?


Recruit or try to recruit the MitD

We have no evidence they know what it is, how to negotiate with it, and most pressingly, how to contact it without alerting the rest of Team Evil.


Work to enhance the defenses of Kragor's tomb that A> have been working and B> team evil demonstrably have no way to detect

Defenses they still know nothing about and would likely have undermined bumbling around? (Presumably Serini will help with that, but when they were planning the ambush they thought she was dead.)


Free Dorukan and Lillian from the gem (yes I know there is a strong possibility they don't know about that at this point)

Putting aside that you answered this one for me, getting it away from Xykon without encountering him seems implausible at best.

EDIT - RE: subversion:


Quite a lot of the Order's success has come from subverting or going AGAINST those tropes rather than diving straight into them. Even Elan said that when he summoned Julio Scoundral in the fight with his Dad. But sure, whatever you say.

The subversion generally happens after or while playing the trope straight. Yeah it's likely the MitD or Redcloak or the Snarl or something else will help them take care of Xykon rather than it being a straight up fight, but that doesn't mean that will happen if they sit on their hands without first trying the hero thing. (Nor will it happen if they try all the worse listed options first instead either.)

[dancrilis]

Tbh, as the unfortunate story of Tsukiho shows to us, Roy's take is way closer to Xykon's nature than yours.

Tsukiho fell into the same trap as Roy - she judged Xykon based on his creature type rather then as a person, had he been an untemplated human she would likely not have not made that mistake.

[JNAProductions]

Tsukiho fell into the same trap as Roy - she judged Xykon based on his creature type rather then as a person, had he been an untemplated human she would likely not have not made that mistake.

You do recall all the atrocities Xykon committed, yeah?

If he was an ordinary human, he’d be evil as all get out. Lichdom just let him do it longer.

[dancrilis]

If he was an ordinary human, he’d be evil as all get out.

That would be my point.

Xykon has arguably done no more evil then Tarquin or Nale - Roy doesn't deny their humanity or accuse them of being soulless or claim that they want nothing but destruction, he signals out the guy with a template for those kind of bigoted comments.

Now lets be clear being a bigot doesn't make Roy a bad guy (people can have there issues) but it is a blocker to negotiation.

[Precure]

Even if that's true, Roy still needs to kill Xykon as part of his promise to fulfilling his father's oath.

[KorvinStarmast]

So it is absolutely illogical for them to choose that path at the expense of all others. No it isn't. You made an unsupported assertion, so I reject it. Props to The Extinguisher for spelling it out in a bit more detail.

Nothing in the story so far says that the casters were epic when they made the gate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. to say that that "fails every test" is pretty obviously wrong and says more about your assumptions than mine. Did you read SoD?

@Psyren: thanks for getting the laugh track started. :smallsmile:

[hungrycrow]

That would be my point.

Xykon has arguably done no more evil then Tarquin or Nale - Roy doesn't deny their humanity or accuse them of being soulless or claim that they want nothing but destruction, he signals out the guy with a template for those kind of bigoted comments.

Now lets be clear being a bigot doesn't make Roy a bad guy (people can have there issues) but it is a blocker to negotiation.

Based on Roy's reaction to Durkula he can treat undead as people. He treats Xykon like a soulless monster bent on destruction because he's met Xykon and Xykon is a soulless monster bent on destruction.

[Fable Wright]

So... I think you're right.

I don't know how they get to the point of negotiating with Xykon, but it's been set up.

In 829 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html), Tsukiko: "He gave it to me. Said he didn't understand how it worked and I should figure it out for him."

Moreover, that's a continuation of the plotline in 700 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html). In the Team Evil flashbacks, it's been highlighted multiple times now that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak's ritual, and wants to know the details of it before he enters the final phase of the plan.

And then in 833 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), look at Xykon's face when Redcloak presents the ritual. Then his line: "If you had to smoke her, you had to smoke her. Hell knows I've had to off an uppity minion in my day."

If you've read Start of Darkness, you know how observant Xykon can be about the little stuff. Redcloak just dusted his minion to protect a secret.

I'm guessing, off the top of my head, there's an argument at the gate. An impassioned appeal is made to Redcloak, that tips off the plan to Xykon.

Endgame is Order + Redcloak vs Xykon the Lich and MitD. (Why MitD? Checkov's Gun from SoD.)

It's the option that no one thinks of, and it works.

:xykon:: What, you think Evil's one big, happy family?

[brian 333]

I think Xykon would negotiate, but to what point?

To him it would be little more than entertainment, on the order of negotiating with the lobster in the tank at your favorite restaurant. What does the lobster really have that you would be willing to accept?

1: We won't destroy you.

Does Xykon really believe they can?

2: We'll let you rule (a part of) the world.

It's not theirs to offer and the people who live there might not agree to the deal.

3: Redcloak plans to betray you.

Well, duh. Thought of that one before Book 1.

4: The Ritual doesn't do what Redcloak says it does.

Fine. When it fails I'll take out his other eye. Kinda been the plan all along anyway. And how does this get me closer to World Domination?®

5: The Gods will destroy the world if it looks like you're going to win.

Hey, no sweat. I got a love shack on the highway between their palatial estates ready to go. I'm fine unless they destroy themselves too, and in that case, everyone else is boned too. Might as well give me what I want and save yourself a lot of boning.

For negotiation to be effective, there has to be an offer both parties can reasonably expect the other can deliver. The Order has (literally, not figuratively,) nothing that Xykon wants or needs. For that matter, what does Xykon have to offer that The Order would accept and believe Xykon would honor?

"I'll stop being an evil sociopath bent on subjugation of the world if you promise not to destroy me."

Really? Could Xykon even say that without laughing out loud?

Negotiation requires quid pro qou, and neither side has any quid to offer.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm guessing, off the top of my head, there's an argument at the gate. An impassioned appeal is made to Redcloak, that tips off the plan to Xykon.

Endgame is Order + Redcloak vs Xykon the Lich and MitD. (Why MitD? Checkov's Gun from SoD.)

It's the option that no one thinks of, and it works.

:xykon:: What, you think Evil's one big, happy family? Is that due to the thing between Xykon and MitD in SoD? That would need to be foreshadowed in the main strip, wouldn't it, via a flashback? While I think it's plausible, it goes against the grain of MitD's sabotage by paint, the relationship he formed with O-Chul, and his potential to surprise Xykon by not doing as Xykon expects.

Might as well give me what I want and save yourself a lot of boning. I am reminded of the last few panels of this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0204.html).

Negotiation requires quid pro quo, and neither side has any quid to offer. Interestingly put, since 'quid' is English slang for money; were you going for the pun there?
Quid is a slang expression for the British pound sterling, or the British pound (GBP), which is the currency of the United Kingdom (U.K.). A quid equals 100 pence, and is believed to come from the Latin phrase “quid pro quo,” which translates into "something for something."

[Fable Wright]

Is that due to the thing between Xykon and MitD in SoD? That would need to be foreshadowed in the main strip, wouldn't it, via a flashback? While I think it's plausible, it goes against the grain of MitD's sabotage by paint, the relationship he formed with O-Chul, and his potential to surprise Xykon by not doing as Xykon expects.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that it's due to the thing between Xykon and MitD in SoD.

It doesn't have to be a lot of flashback—context clues work. :xykon: "Sometimes, you make sure you have a bit of insurance," as MitD repeats something about Redcloak betraying Xykon as he gets swirly eyes. Is MitD willingly on Xykon's side? No. Will MitD be fighting with Xykon anyways? Yes. Will he have a 'my god, what have I done moment' once the compulsion fades and turn against Xykon as he realizes in full that he was being used as a tool rather than a friend, the culmination of his arc with Mr. Stiffly? Yes.

More importantly, it means that the final confrontation of Redcloak + Order + Paladins isn't logically a one-sided stomp in favor of the good guys, which is necessary for dramatic tension. And even if MitD has a heel-face turn after swallowing Redcloak, everyone was going to do everything in their power to stop that in the first place anyways to protect the universe, so it ends with a wiped field and MitD personally standing against Xykon, the monster he's terrified of, which is good for his dramatic arc.

[Satohika]

Xykon is untrustworthy because he has very radical mood swings. Even before being a lich he was changing personality from a chill guy to hang around to someone who would kill you for something trivial. Probably because he didn't grow at all after discovering his powers, and still the same boy who killed animals for fun, just like how Redcloak is still the same angry teenager.

[JonahFalcon]

The Astral plane is immune to whatever hard reset the Gods have. Remember the monuments? Also, the Gods are safe from the Snarl in the Astral plane.

[Psyren]

The Astral plane is immune to whatever hard reset the Gods have. Remember the monuments? Also, the Gods are safe from the Snarl in the Astral plane.

The area of the Astral containing the monuments persists between worlds, but that doesn't mean they'd leave Xykon's doom fortress intact. As a corollary, Thor mentioned there are Githyanki running around the Astral too (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) - and fat chance those persisted from the sentient movie snack world, so I don't think it's true to say the entire Astral Plane is safe from being wiped between worlds. Whatever was in the Astral from snack world is gone, because the gods scrubbed it too.

[halfeye]

The thing about Xykon not minding that much about Redcloak killing Tsukiko is that in SoD:

He specifically tells Redcloak that Redcloak made the mistake of thinking he didn't know about his disloyalty, when actually he didn't care.

I'm pretty sure the same miscalculation applies to all of Redcloak's shenanigans, Xykon knows he'd doing it, he just doesn't care.

Also, it may be antique, but there is yet another meaning for "quid", it's a lump of chewing tobacco.

[JonahFalcon]

The area of the Astral containing the monuments persists between worlds, but that doesn't mean they'd leave Xykon's doom fortress intact. As a corollary, Thor mentioned there are Githyanki running around the Astral too (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) - and fat chance those persisted from the sentient movie snack world, so I don't think it's true to say the entire Astral Plane is safe from being wiped between worlds. Whatever was in the Astral from snack world is gone, because the gods scrubbed it too.


That's assuming Xykon wouldn't return as whatever the new paradigm is, like a super-evil box of Milk Duds with amazing chocolate/nougat powers.

[Psyren]

That's assuming Xykon wouldn't return as whatever the new paradigm is, like a super-evil box of Milk Duds with amazing chocolate/nougat powers.

It wouldn't matter if he came back - we know that when they remake the world everyone starts at level one again. That was the whole point of making a bunch of monsters for their clerics to grind in the first place.

[JonahFalcon]

It wouldn't matter if he came back - we know that when they remake the world everyone starts at level one again. That was the whole point of making a bunch of monsters for their clerics to grind in the first place.

Um... that's because there are BILLIONS of new souls. They're not going to reset old ones. Those are needed to snack on the newer ones.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm pretty sure that if the Gods care enough to mindwipe every single outsider into forgetting about the previous worlds, that they will either destroy or do something about Xykon as well. Maybe they'd keep him around to be some big different dimensional evil or something, or maybe to try and play at making a new color by having Xykon ascend, it's more likely that the gods just snuff him out.

That being said, I'm pretty sure negotiating with Xykon would likely result in him killing Redcloak and going on a rampage and likely killing the Order as well. Maybe Xykon goes off to find some new evil scheme or maybe he goes to Gobbotopia to try and conquer the world the old fashioned way. Regardless, Xykon is still very evil and an active threat to the people of the world, even if the world itself might survive.

[brian 333]

In my opinion, Xykon would be mindwiped like any other outsider when the world gets reset. He has no special immunity that a solar does not, and being on the Astral Plane with a few billion Astral beings, he has no special ability to hide when the Great Astral Roundup occurs. He'll be roped and branded with the gith and all the rest.

Of course, he doesn"t know anything about that part of the deal, and will be certain he can weather the storm when it comes. He doesn't even realize that gods do not always survive the interregnum, and that he has no guarantee of survival until the next world.

I'm pretty sure negotiating with Xykon will produce no result at all. He already knows Redcloak wants to betray him, and he has no reason to believe his scheme won't work. They really have nothing to say that would mean anything to him.

[Peelee]

In my opinion, Xykon would be mindwiped like any other outsider when the world gets reset. He has no special immunity that a solar does not, and being on the Astral Plane with a few billion Astral beings, he has no special ability to hide when the Great Astral Roundup occurs.

He's not an outsider. Why would he not simply be destroyed by the gods?

[dancrilis]

He's not an outsider. Why would he not simply be destroyed by the gods?

Gods in dungeons and dragons I think are often only around level 40-60 and there is a theory that gods are 'more vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)' - if that is a theory some of the gods hold then they might seek to keep Xykon around and letting him level up a bit might allow him to fight back and perhaps even kill it, a long shot to be sure but perhaps worth a try (in much the same way that Loki defended the Dark One as a plan to deal with the snarl).

[Fyraltari]

Gods in dungeons and dragons I think are often only around level 40-60 and there is a theory that gods are 'more vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)' - if that is a theory some of the gods hold then they might seek to keep Xykon around and letting him level up a bit might allow him to fight back and perhaps even kill it, a long shot to be sure but perhaps worth a try (in much the same way that Loki defended the Dark One as a plan to deal with the snarl).

Thing is, once Xykon is powerful enough to overcome the Snarl, he'd also be powerful enough to overcome any god, and that sounds like a terrible idea.

[KorvinStarmast]

It doesn't have to be a lot of flashback—context clues work. :xykon: "Sometimes, you make sure you have a bit of insurance," as MitD repeats something about Redcloak betraying Xykon as he gets swirly eyes. Is MitD willingly on Xykon's side? No. Will MitD be fighting with Xykon anyways? Yes. Will he have a 'my god, what have I done moment' once the compulsion fades and turn against Xykon as he realizes in full that he was being used as a tool rather than a friend, the culmination of his arc with Mr. Stiffly? Yes.

More importantly, it means that the final confrontation of Redcloak + Order + Paladins isn't logically a one-sided stomp in favor of the good guys, which is necessary for dramatic tension. And even if MitD has a heel-face turn after swallowing Redcloak, everyone was going to do everything in their power to stop that in the first place anyways to protect the universe, so it ends with a wiped field and MitD personally standing against Xykon, the monster he's terrified of, which is good for his dramatic arc. I like your thought process there.

Xykon is untrustworthy because he has very radical mood swings. Even before being a lich he was changing personality from a chill guy to hang around to someone who would kill you for something trivial. Probably because he didn't grow at all after discovering his powers, and still the same boy who killed animals for fun, just like how Redcloak is still the same angry teenager.
Nice parallel.

Also, it may be antique, but there is yet another meaning for "quid", it's a lump of chewing tobacco. In the US, the slang term for that which I came across a lot is "plug" (a plug of tobacco). Thanks for the slang update. (UK? Aussie? Irish? Other?)

[dancrilis]

Thing is, once Xykon is powerful enough to overcome the Snarl, he'd also be powerful enough to overcome any god, and that sounds like a terrible idea.

It might be more like rock paper scissors, just because gods might be more vulnerable to the Snarl then equally leveled mortals would not necessarily mean that those gods lose to those mortals.

[Fyraltari]

It might be more like rock paper scissors, just because gods might be more vulnerable to the Snarl then equally leveled mortals would not necessarily mean that those gods lose to those mortals.

It's strongly implied that this down to how many divine essences they have. 4-color snarl has an advantage over everybody but less so against three-color mortals than one-color gods.

[dancrilis]

It's strongly implied that this down to how many divine essences they have. 4-color snarl has an advantage over everybody but less so against three-color mortals than one-color gods.

Agreed - which is also why it probably wouldn't work, but still might be worth an attempt and as such a reason not to destroy Xykon merely because he happened to be off plane when the gates broke.

[Psyren]

Um... that's because there are BILLIONS of new souls. They're not going to reset old ones. Those are needed to snack on the newer ones.

What "old ones?" :smallconfused:


Gods in dungeons and dragons I think are often only around level 40-60 and there is a theory that gods are 'more vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)' - if that is a theory some of the gods hold then they might seek to keep Xykon around and letting him level up a bit might allow him to fight back and perhaps even kill it, a long shot to be sure but perhaps worth a try (in much the same way that Loki defended the Dark One as a plan to deal with the snarl).

Xykon got curbstomped by Soon, I really don't think a god is going to break much of a sweat. Worse still, Xykon knows about the Rifts, and we know that at least is a no-no between worlds.

[dancrilis]

Xykon got curbstomped by Soon,

I look at it more as Xykon using suboptimal tactics of attacking without support, and suboptimal tactics due to not knowing how the incorporal rules worked, and seeming poor spell selection of not boxing people, and when he was caught unexpected - stood (flew) alone against the entire Sapphire Guard (past and present) in a likely consecrated room and while he didn't win he emerged without serious issue.


I really don't think a god is going to break much of a sweat.

Which would give them confidence to allow him to live.


Worse still, Xykon knows about the Rifts, and we know that at least is a no-no between worlds
The gods can't do anything about the Dark One and he might actually create new snarls if he attacks them if he starts to fade from existance - if a powerful mortal creature stands a better chance against the Snarl(s) then gods of equal level then having such a creature around may make since - and as a three colour creature Xykon might be very useful against potential two-colour snarls.

[Psyren]

I look at it more as Xykon using suboptimal tactics of attacking without support, and suboptimal tactics due to not knowing how the incorporal rules worked, and seeming poor spell selection of not boxing people, and when he was caught unexpected - stood (flew) alone against the entire Sapphire Guard (past and present) in a likely consecrated room and while he didn't win he emerged without serious issue.

"Xykon is barely competent against foes he can't ED-spam without Redcloak telling him how to fight" is not the ringing endorsement you think it is.

You're also relying on a ton of conjecture such as whether the throne room is consecrated, whether that even matters to a lich (it doesn't), whether Shojo's theory is even true (Thor hasn't confirmed it) etc.


Which would give them confidence to allow him to live.

But no reason to, which is the issue.

[dancrilis]

"Xykon is barely competent against foes he can't ED-spam without Redcloak telling him how to fight" is not the ringing endorsement you think it is.
It could be to the gods - that is the point, if the theory is true the gods could point Xykon at the Snarl and give him some potential tips and if he wins well and good and if he doesn't oh well no great loss.


You're also relying on a ton of conjecture such as whether the throne room is consecrated, whether that even matters to a lich (it doesn't)
Liches are undead creatures consecrated areas do impact them.


whether Shojo's theory is even true (Thor hasn't confirmed it) etc.
The gods might not know if it is true or not - and have little reason not to try it.



But no reason to, which is the issue.
To test a theory is a reason to let something continue to exist.

[Psyren]

Liches are undead creatures consecrated areas do impact them.

Undead get a whopping -1 penalty to attack rolls. Liches are spellcasters, and he's epic besides.

On top of which, you still have no idea whether the throne room was consecrated.


It could be to the gods - that is the point, if the theory is true the gods could point Xykon at the Snarl and give him some potential tips and if he wins well and good and if he doesn't oh well no great loss.
...
The gods might not know if it is true or not - and have little reason not to try it.
...
To test a theory is a reason to let something continue to exist.

Not when "let Xykon live" can be disagreeable enough to make a new Snarl on its own.

[brian 333]

He's not an outsider. Why would he not simply be destroyed by the gods?

Assuming a best case scenario for Xykon. Some evil god may want a minion, and a few hundred years of starvation in his fortress might give him reasons to accept such a position.

Maybe they will allow him to exist, or not.

Something I see repeated is the idea that gods are 40-60 level characters.

No.

The avatars of gods are 40-60 level characters. A deity, even a demigod, is virtually unassailable in its home plane, able to draw on the entire power of its plane. To defeat a deity (not just its physical manifestation,) requires the power of a god. And a god has an advantage over mortals: if you destroy a god's avatar you have an angry god stuck on its home plane for a century with the ability to kill mortals on the mortal plane via miracles. If a god's avatar, (or an angry god's spirit,) kills a very powerful mortal, the result is a very low level formerly mortal outsider which has virtually no ability to do anything except what is allowed by the deities that control its new home plane.

Xykon will never be powerful enough to kill a god unless he sheds his mortal existence and becomes immortal.

[Peelee]

Assuming a best case scenario for Xykon. Some evil god may want a minion, and a few hundred years of starvation in his fortress might give him reasons to accept such a position.

Maybe they will allow him to exist, or not.

Some evil god may want a minion. The majority of other gods want to do with the standard "wipe all outsiders, destroy all non-outsiders" method they have gone with for n billion times so far. Some evil god is outvoted.

Probably.

[awa]

xykon does not strike me as good minion material he seems to be the type to sabotage his master just out of pointless petty spite, heck I can't see him even in a position of equals for him its top dog or nothing.

[dancrilis]

Undead get a whopping -1 penalty to attack rolls. Liches are spellcasters, and he's epic besides.

It also impacts damage and save rolls.



On top of which, you still have no idea whether the throne room was consecrated.
I never said it was consecrated I said it was likely consecrated - which still seems likely to me, you are free to disagree.
Xykon did mention that the city was likely sanctified (and showed an aversion to such) but he didn't elaborate on what that meant.



Not when "let Xykon live" can be disagreeable enough to make a new Snarl on its own.

Hilgya and Kudzu are intending to escape to a different plane of existance - Xykon is no more special then they are, I could see the good gods not liking the implications of hunting down and killing people solely because they happened to be off world at the time of the Snarl's release, I could see the neutral gods not having strong feelings one way or another, and I could see the evil gods wanting those who survive the centuries to have a chance to spread evil on the new world - there is no reason to assume that the god rules have a ...

standard "wipe all outsiders, destroy all non-outsiders" method
... set up.

[hroþila]

Hilgya and Kudzu are not immortal, so yes, Xykon is more special than they are. The time between worlds can be arbitrarily long, it's quite possible that normal mortals aren't a concern but that something needs to be done about the odd immortal on the loose.

[brian 333]

Hilgya and Kudzu are not immortal, so yes, Xykon is more special than they are. The time between worlds can be arbitrarily long, it's quite possible that normal mortals aren't a concern but that something needs to be done about the odd immortal on the loose.

Xykon is not immortal. He is a mortal who is not yet dead. His soul is trapped and prevented from moving on to its afterlife, but destroy the 'soul hidey thing' and he sheds his mortal coil like anyone else.

With divine intervention he might be allowed to skip over the larva stage of demonic ascension, or he may even be preserved more or less as is, except changed to outsider like the soul-splice guys.

As to his ability to survive a world's destruction, his body and phylactery are part of the world, and contain useful threads. All that will be left is a soul, which will be an outsider type being. Whether some deity wants him for a servant or not, or whether he is immediately converted to God Chow™ is speculative. I can see ultra-genius intelligences believing they can be a step ahead of any plots Xykon 2.0 can conceive, but I don't see them letting him retain memories of the old world when they wipe the memories from all the rest of the outsiders.

[hroþila]

Xykon is very much immortal in the sense I'm using here - he doesn't have a limited, relatively short lifespan like Hilgya and Kudzu, and he won't ever die of natural causes. Hilgya and Kudzu will inevitably die at some point, probably before the construction of the new world even begins, so they're not a problem the gods would need to deal with. Xykon taking shelter in another plane to avoid the destruction of the world is thus not the same scenario as Hilgya and Kudzu doing the same.

[dancrilis]

Xykon is very much immortal in the sense I'm using here - he doesn't have a limited, relatively short lifespan like Hilgya and Kudzu, and he won't ever die of natural causes. Hilgya and Kudzu will inevitably die at some point, probably before the construction of the new world even begins, so they're not a problem the gods would need to deal with. Xykon taking shelter in another plane to avoid the destruction of the world is thus not the same scenario as Hilgya and Kudzu doing the same.

Either Hilgya or Kudzu could in theory go down the lich route also - is your thinking that the gods would jump in at that point?

Alternatively they are merely two people (three if we include Sigdi, more if Hilgya takes other nearby people with her) but plane shift exists for others also so there could actually be easily be a few hundred peoplewho escape - including older dragons who might have thousands of years left to live.

Communities might well form from survivors banding together - which would produce new children etc, etc, etc

If the gods are overly concerned about one lich surviving then it would make sense for them to be worried about anyone surviving - which gets back to whether the gods will sign off on genociding the old worlds survivors for the crime of surviving (while also killing a potential continual food supply while food sources are already low).

On consideration none of the gates failed due to snarl activity so it might be possible that the gates are more stable then the world, so in theory if Hilgya hit epic level and worked with Xykon then they could trap the released snarl behind a massive singular gate which might be more stable then any world the gods have made - and then the new world could be build on that.

[brian 333]

All of their bodies, including Xykon's and Kudzu's, are made of the same stuff as the world. When the world is unmade, they all die and become low-level outsiders with (usually) alignment-based home planes.

Exceptions may be possible, but I find it unlikely that the gods will leave extra yarn from this world lying around to run around in the next. Fruit Pie The Sorcerer may be such an exception, or it may simply be a creation by the Hostess Coven to market their supernaturally delicious fried fruit pies.

I find it most likely that the gods unravel everyone, regardless of their location. Their spirits then get shifted to their final reward, like it or not. In this case, both Xykon and Hilgya are deceiving themselves about their chances of surviving the end of the world.

edit: If The Snarl unmakes the world, it may not be able to reach the plane of Earth or the Astral Plane to unravel the beings there. If the gods do it, where could a being hide that they wouldn't know about?

[dancrilis]

All of their bodies, including Xykon's and Kudzu's, are made of the same stuff as the world. When the world is unmade, they all die and become low-level outsiders with (usually) alignment-based home planes.

That is an ok theory but there is little to nothing to support it - against it we have that the souls of those same beings would also be made of those strands and would be unmade with the world whether by the Snarl or the gods, and we know that is not the case.

I see no reason to think that Xykon or Kudzu are intrinsically linked to the world and that they would be destroyed along with it regardless of actual location.

[hroþila]

Either Hilgya or Kudzu could in theory go down the lich route also - is your thinking that the gods would jump in at that point?

Alternatively they are merely two people (three if we include Sigdi, more if Hilgya takes other nearby people with her) but plane shift exists for others also so there could actually be easily be a few hundred peoplewho escape - including older dragons who might have thousands of years left to live.

Communities might well form from survivors banding together - which would produce new children etc, etc, etc

If the gods are overly concerned about one lich surviving then it would make sense for them to be worried about anyone surviving - which gets back to whether the gods will sign off on genociding the old worlds survivors for the crime of surviving (while also killing a potential continual food supply while food sources are already low).

On consideration none of the gates failed due to snarl activity so it might be possible that the gates are more stable then the world, so in theory if Hilgya hit epic level and worked with Xykon then they could trap the released snarl behind a massive singular gate which might be more stable then any world the gods have made - and then the new world could be build on that.
I have no idea how the gods do it, but while normal mortals becoming a problem by establishing sustainable colonies is a possibility, it's not a certainty. There's a whole lot of if's involved in that scenario. Someone like Xykon left unattended is guaranteed to survive between worlds if they don't do something about it (unless unmaking the world also unmakes everyone made with the same threads, as brian mentioned; but I don't see why that would be the case). They're not equally likely scenarios. But sure, if it comes to it I could see the gods destroying any such colonies. Maybe they'll just wipe their minds or whatever, we really have no way to know, but the point stands - immortals are a problem in ways mortals are not.

[brian 333]

That is an ok theory but there is little to nothing to support it - against it we have that the souls of those same beings would also be made of those strands and would be unmade with the world whether by the Snarl or the gods, and we know that is not the case.

I see no reason to think that Xykon or Kudzu are intrinsically linked to the world and that they would be destroyed along with it regardless of actual location.

Thor said that outsiders survive and have to be mind-wiped between worlds, and that mortals die and the gods claim their portions of the souls. The character's location when the world is unmade would be irrelevant. The soul of that dead character would become an outsider.

It is not stated, but everything implies that souls are not made of the same stuff as reality. They are made of ideas, beliefs, and passions. Remember the view of the Astral Plane when Thor was giving Durkon and Minrah the tour?

Unless some God or The Snarl destroys or consumes the soul, it slowly merges into the fabric of the outer planes, like an idea that is absorbed into a person's basic assumptions. Remember when you first learned about 'hot'? You probably never think about it now. You may not remember the specific incident at all, but you never forget about 'hot'!

In my opinion, souls are the belief in self that forms when a mortal lives. God's are powered by belief. These are not the same as reality because ideas are not real. Good ideas frame reality accurately, and persist. 'Hot' is a good concept because reality reinforces it. But like your first experience with hot, the clear, sharp memory becomes subsumed by 'common sense' that incorporates hundreds of such ideas. As with souls, over time the memory fades away.

[hungrycrow]

Thor said that outsiders survive and have to be mind-wiped between worlds, and that mortals die and the gods claim their portions of the souls. The character's location when the world is unmade would be irrelevant. The soul of that dead character would become an outsider.

That the location is irrelevant isn't directly implied by that statement. He could be talking generally, because most mortals live on the world and would die if the ground they're standing on gets unmade.

Thor could have meant it the way you suggest, but Durkon heard all the things we did and still thinks Hilgya and Kudzu can escape.

[Precure]

Thor could have meant it the way you suggest, but Durkon heard all the things we did and still thinks Hilgya and Kudzu can escape.

Escape from the Snarl, not the death.

[hungrycrow]

Escape from the Snarl, not the death.

They don't specify. Hilgya says "the moment you and your friends screw it up" and Durkon says "at the first sign o' trouble". They could be talking about the Snarl or the Gods. In the current strip, Durkon seems to agree with Roy that "screwing up" means the gods destroy the world, so that's probably what he meant earlier.

[Precure]

They don't specify. Hilgya says "the moment you and your friends screw it up" and Durkon says "at the first sign o' trouble". They could be talking about the Snarl or the Gods. In the current strip, Durkon seems to agree with Roy that "screwing up" means the gods destroy the world, so that's probably what he meant earlier.

There is no "sign of trouble" in case of the gods' destroying the earth. It was supposed to be very quick turn of events.

[hungrycrow]

There is no "sign of trouble" in case of the gods' destroying the earth. It was supposed to be very quick turn of events.

The only thing we know about the destruction of the world is that 10 minutes is plenty of time to do it. We have no idea if the process is instant or if characters have time to react. The characters do think they'll be able to react though: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html Hilgya thinks the sign will be "if everything starts shaking". It'd only take seconds for Hilgya to grab Kudzu and cast plane shift.

[Tecoatl]

Actually, the Giant kind of explained why Xykon isn't the best character to negotiate with.

SOD spoilers.

He's kind of a {scrubbed}.

And yes, that's a quote directly from Rich in the official canon book.



So, I don't think I've seen anyone bring this up, but it seems like an obvious tactic to me.

We (and Roy) know Xykon is not interested in destroying the world. A lot of his best evil happened there. And we know that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak and hasn't for a very long time - for very good reason, since Redcloak has been deceiving him from the beginning. Xykon is savvy enough to know something is up, even if he doesn't know what.

So starting with a few Sending spells, the Order can start explaining what's at stake and that the gods will destroy the world if they think the Snarl might get loose. Why would Xykon not believe them? It's a pretty logical chain of causality, and Xykon is a practical guy. Redcloak is a zealot wracked by guilt and the need to prove that his past misdeeds were worth the sacrifice, but I can't think of anyone who would care less about sunken costs less than Xykon (except possibly Belkar).

And the Order can also explain that Xykon can't bolt to another plane if things go bad - Thor knows about his hidden fortress on the Astral Plane and now so does Durkon. Merely mentioning that they know of its existence would probably do a lot to shake Xykon up. The gods mindwipe all the Outsiders every time they create a new world, they're not going to let a loose cannon like an epic level lich who remembers the previous universe run around, are they?

Also, and perhaps most importantly, Xykon is exactly like Roy - he's a talky man. This is a lich who kept saying "Hey, let's chill out and talk about this" while getting hit in the face with a sword during the battle of Azure City. He also spent a lot of focus chatting with Varsuvius when they attacked with the power of the Soul Splice - a credible threat, but Xykon still was more interested in "Why are you doing this?" than the actual battle. Granted, both times Xykon was feeling that he was not actually threatened by his opponents, but when his phylactery was in danger he got deadly serious - and if the Order simply convinces him of the truth, I think he would get pretty darn serious again in the Order's favor. And I will say again, why would he not believe them? He is not an idealogue committed to a cause, he's just a self-aware villain who is following a scheme that fell in his lap because he has nothing better to do. I really think Xykon would still be just as happy doing some random evil stuff while waiting for Roy to level up enough to be a good challenge, he's like Elan that way.

Heck, Xykon would probably have more luck convincing Redcloak to help the gods than Durkon did. I don't think it's too much of a stretch: "I want to keep existing and not go to the Lower Planes for punishment, therefore the world has to keep existing. So if you don't lend your Dark One purple energy to create new Gates, I am going to level Gobbotopia to the last mewling goblin infant, then go kill every other goblin I can find." Redcloak might not believe Durkon's promises, but you know he'll believe Xykon's threats.

So, trying to defeat Xykon in battle seems like a massive longshot. Telling Xykon the truth and convincing him that your interests are aligned in this issue seems far more likely to succeed.

[JonahFalcon]

I think the IFCC would go to great lengths to prevent any sort of negotiation anyway.

On a side note, I wonder where Sabine is?

[Psyren]

On a side note, I wonder where Sabine is?

On her way back with an "appropriate vessel." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html)

[JonahFalcon]

Well, 1256 answered this question: why the heck would the gods WANT to negotiate?

[PontificatusRex]

Well, 1256 answered this question: why the heck would the gods WANT to negotiate?

Well, not quite. It makes the case that it's credible that the gods would destroy the world to stop the Snarl from being controlled or escaping, it only glances over the fact that they have a reason to make a deal. Though I think only Loki, Thor, and Odin are actually in on that plan.

What I think is especially interesting is that the strip unequivocally answers the question about whether Roy would be willing to talk to Xykon, which a lot of commenters seemed to think was a no go.

[Lord Raziere]

What I think is especially interesting is that the strip unequivocally answers the question about whether Roy would be willing to talk to Xykon, which a lot of commenters seemed to think was a no go.

Yeah and they were right.

his answer isn't much different from "never" as Xykon is a cartoonishly evil lich. that hypothetical scenario is never happening.

[PontificatusRex]

Yeah and they were right.

his answer isn't much different from "never" as Xykon is a cartoonishly evil lich. that hypothetical scenario is never happening.

Well, once again I will point out that the single conversation between Roy and Xykon consisted of Xykon trying to negotiate with Roy. If Roy was willing, I would love to read round 2.

I think you are making my point with the word "cartooonish". Xykon is in it for the fun, and he understands his role as a big villain in a word of sword and sorcery heroics. He isn't devoted to the Plan for any reason other than what it happens to be what he's doing. The one thing Xykon takes seriously is self-preservation when he feels actually threatened, and right now the gods destroying the world is a far bigger threat to him than the Order is.

The gods created a world in which he can do whatever he wants with his immense power without threat of direct divine retribution of any kind. It's a pretty darn good status quo for him and he has absolutely no upside if the gods destroy the world, as opposed to the improved outcome Redcloak imagines. So the fact that Xykon is evil doesn't really matter into whether or not he would understand the threat he is bringing on himself.

And again - convincing Xykon hinges on convincing him that Redcloak has been lying to him, which he already strongly suspects. Xykon is so tired of Redcloak that he is more willing to listen to the MitD's opinion than RC's. I really don't see it as a hard sell.

[hungrycrow]

Well, once again I will point out that the single conversation between Roy and Xykon consisted of Xykon trying to negotiate with Roy. If Roy was willing, I would love to read round 2.

I think you are making my point with the word "cartooonish". Xykon is in it for the fun, and he understands his role as a big villain in a word of sword and sorcery heroics. He isn't devoted to the Plan for any reason other than what it happens to be what he's doing. The one thing Xykon takes seriously is self-preservation when he feels actually threatened, and right now the gods destroying the world is a far bigger threat to him than the Order is.

The gods created a world in which he can do whatever he wants with his immense power without threat of direct divine retribution of any kind. It's a pretty darn good status quo for him and he has absolutely no upside if the gods destroy the world, as opposed to the improved outcome Redcloak imagines. So the fact that Xykon is evil doesn't really matter into whether or not he would understand the threat he is bringing on himself.

And again - convincing Xykon hinges on convincing him that Redcloak has been lying to him, which he already strongly suspects. Xykon is so tired of Redcloak that he is more willing to listen to the MitD's opinion than RC's. I really don't see it as a hard sell.

Xykon walking away and doing whatever he wants with his immense power means he just goes off and murders innocents somewhere else. That might be an acceptable bargain to Serini in order to save the world, but Roy and the rest of the Order would never consider it.

[brian 333]

Xykon walking away and doing whatever he wants with his immense power means he just goes off and murders innocents somewhere else. That might be an acceptable bargain to Serini in order to save the world, but Roy and the rest of the Order would never consider it.

That's the attitude to which Serini is objecting. What happens when the enemy inevitably crosses it? What's your fallback plan? Have you ever considered that to win long term is better than to blow up the world and kill everyone today?

"I think you're more than capable of deciding that it would be better to blow up the world than let Xylon win,"

"My job is to protect the world, not the status quo,"

"And you can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing."

[PontificatusRex]

That's the attitude to which Serini is objecting. What happens when the enemy inevitably crosses it? What's your fallback plan? Have you ever considered that to win long term is better than to blow up the world and kill everyone today?

"I think you're more than capable of deciding that it would be better to blow up the world than let Xylon win,"

"My job is to protect the world, not the status quo,"

"And you can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing."

Right, and I think we've seen in the latest strip that Roy is not married to the "Stopping Xykon is the ultimate goal" mindset. I really do not think a deal to save the world requires the Order agreeing to refrain from trying to defeat Xykon, nor does it require Xykon to agree to stop being eeeeeevil.

Remember, Xykon likes the game. He knows heroes coming to try to stop his evil schemes is part of the game, and he encouraged Roy to take a break and come back when he had more of a chance of winning than he did during the battle for Azure City. So what's necessary is to get across the message that in this particular game the gods are about to flip the table and they all lose. All they have to do is move to a new map or board or whatever and it can all start up again without the apocalypse hanging over their heads.

[hungrycrow]

Right, and I think we've seen in the latest strip that Roy is not married to the "Stopping Xykon is the ultimate goal" mindset. I really do not think a deal to save the world requires the Order agreeing to refrain from trying to defeat Xykon, nor does it require Xykon to agree to stop being eeeeeevil.

Remember, Xykon likes the game. He knows heroes coming to try to stop his evil schemes is part of the game, and he encouraged Roy to take a break and come back when he had more of a chance of winning than he did during the battle for Azure City. So what's necessary is to get across the message that in this particular game the gods are about to flip the table and they all lose. All they have to do is move to a new map or board or whatever and it can all start up again without the apocalypse hanging over their heads.

Roy said he'd be open to it if Xykon weren't eeeeevil. That's been a dealbreaker every time villains have suggested truces.

If Roy and Xykon agreed to move to a new board and restart the game, that would mean Xykon restarting the game by killing people, and Roy would feel responsible for that.

[brian 333]

Whether something can be done about it is the question you ask after you have chosen to think through the consequences.

If there is a hard line, "This far and no farther," you only have one option. Indeed, as with Durkon's conundrum, you may not have a good choice, or it may take a while to think of one. But at least you're thinking.

It is far too easy to draw a line in the sand. Inevitably, the bad guys cross it. If your only option at that point is to end the game for everyone, whether they like it or not, then you haven't really won.

[PontificatusRex]

Roy said he'd be open to it if Xykon weren't eeeeevil. That's been a dealbreaker every time villains have suggested truces.

If Roy and Xykon agreed to move to a new board and restart the game, that would mean Xykon restarting the game by killing people, and Roy would feel responsible for that.

Um, Roy didn't say that at all. He said that it would take a lot to convince him that majority of people wouldn't be safer if Xykon was gone.

I think Roy is pragmatic and utilitarian enough to realize that "Xykon killing some people before he is stopped" is a more preferable outcome than "The gods kill all the people."

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think as of 1256 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1256.html), I am now in the camp where I think there will be some kind of negotiation with Xykon. Not in a "let's all live together in harmony and share power, and you get to rule 1/3rd of the planet" kind of sense; such a deal isn't really possible with Xykon, he's a being bent on conquest and villainy, and he wouldn't really honor any agreements, nor would he surrender. It's not in his character.

I think what can and at this point probably will happen is that he finds out that Redcloak's plan won't work and has a near certain result of Xykon being permanently destroyed by the Snarl or instantly killed by the gods and sent to the Big Fire Below. He will change plans, and his plan then would be to destroy Redcloak (A) because it gets revenge on him for being a disloyal minion (B) because it eliminates a dangerous threat to himself personally (C) because he's absolutely furious at Redcloak.

This probably will not result in Xykon going on a zany whirlwind adventure with The Order of The Stick and hanging out with Roy the way Elan and Thog did. That's not where I think this is headed even if the plot takes such a turn.

No, I am thinking the negotiation will be limited to what Xykon already tried to do with Roy just before he killed him: "Let's put off our climactic final battle until you go off on an adventure and get strongk first. Great heroes make great villains."

No, Xykon and the Order of the Stick both know each are the other's mortal enemies, and that there will never be a lasting peace between them because of what they both want to achieve.

But Xykon is capable of putting off resolving that conflict until it's more fun, or more challenging. Certainly he is capable of putting it off until his very existence is no longer being threatened, and destroying a greater threat to himself using literally every means at his disposal. Namely, letting the Order of the Stick defeat Redcloak, when he has a choice whether or not to affect the battle and help Redcloak win.

I think simply dividing their loyalties to one another, which are already extremely fragile, by using words and letting Xykon see reason that Redcloak is a danger to everyone including him, is just the nudge needed to tilt the balance of power.

Think about it. Redcloak may be powerful enough to take on the Order of the Stick with Xykon's help, maybe they are both even powerful enough to win outright. But if they were divided against each other at a crucial moment, that shift in the balance of power probably causes the Order to win the fight with Redcloak.

All Xykon has to do is not come to the aid of Redcloak, simply to stop attacking The Order. Xykon has been shown in canon like a dozen times allowing his minions to be murdered by the heroes. He doesn't care about them that much. Give him a reason to want them destroyed, and he will either help, or laugh while it happens.

So no, I don't see a zany wacky team up between Team Evil and Team Good, nor do I see peace with Xykon as either probable or even possible.

What I do see is diplomacy being a crucial weapon in dividing Xykon and Redcloak's interests away from each other, by splitting them along their biggest fault line, their goals.

Xykon wants to sacrifice literally everything else in order to survive and have fun being a badass villain to be remembered, or to live forever.
Redcloak wants to sacrifice literally everything, including himself, as long as the Dark One wins and has the power of the Snarl to back up his future negotiations with the other gods.

Both are willing to sacrifice the other in order to achieve their goals.

They are already completely disloyal to one another. Diplomacy can push them both over the edge and exploit that fault line.

Redcloak can be negotiated with while he's battling the Order of the Stick, and Xykon will probably be there, not giving his all as usual. Redcloak proves he's too fanatical and too ideologically driven and too dedicated to The Plan to give up on it simply by talking, and in the process of talking, the Order gives it away to Xykon that the gates don't work the way Redcloak says, and then Redcloak can tacitly or explicitly confirm it while arguing with The Order. Xykon can hear it all go down, and realize that this fight between The Order and Redcloak is not in his own best interest to help Redcloak win.

He can either turn on Redcloak and try to destroy him then and there, or escape to his fortress to await the final climactic battle that he envisions for himself and The Order.

This shift in the balance of power then causes Redcloak to lose the fight with the Order, and therefore, be forced to actually seriously accept a negotiated peace deal since he loses everything if he doesn't accept.

Then, he's already seen that the Order is not only strong enough to beat him when he is alone, but also that they will actually honor their offered agreement even when they've defeated him in battle, when they don't have to do so.

Then, two things will be apparent:

1) The peace deal that helps the goblinoid races and gets what The Dark One wants will actually be in serious jeopardy of vanishing if The Snarl ever escapes, or if Xykon is allowed to continue to threaten the world.

2) Xykon has already betrayed him, and the two of them are now enemies, working toward opposing goals. Redcloak with the protecting what peace has gained for the goblinoid people, and Xykon, who is nearly omnicidal for fun and has probably already obliterated thousands of goblins personally, and now has a grudge against his former troops and minions who now won't fight for him.

Obviously, Redcloak will be highly motivated to maintain the peace and protect the goblins, and that involves taking down a threat to them as well, Xykon.

Xykon has all the motivation in the world to prevent the Gods from sending him directly to the Big Fire Below, and all the motivation in the world to prevent his own being from being ripped apart by The Snarl.

If he's aware Redcloak succeeding means he gets destroyed by either the Gods or the Snarl, he might turn on him and stop him. Or, if the Order of the Stick can't beat Redcloak and Xykon and team evil all at the same time, but they can get close enough to the gate to threaten it, they could use the potential destruction of the gate as leverage to force Xykon to retreat. "Leave this place or we'll destroy this gate, and you along with it. If you value your existence, then go!" and he will give some lines about being well prepared for their eventual climactic battle, that he is looking forward to, something like that, and leave.

In either case, or some way I am not considering, the point is that by using negotiation/diplomacy and words alone, they could turn Redcloak and Xykon fully against one another. All it takes is a little information spilling into Xykon's mind that he actually believes, and then the character's natural motivations sort of necessitate turning on Redcloak. It's been far too well established that this is what Xykon would do in that situation, especially if his existence is that threatened.

So it won't be "they negotiated a peace deal with Xykon and everyone lived happily ever after" and it won't be "Roy and his big green flame sword beat Xykon and Redcloak into utter submission, the end."

No, it will be some comination of the two ideas. Sword where needed, words when also needed, and probably Redcloak won't be even capable of being negotiated with until he realizes that Xykon won't cooperate any more and he no longer has his Snarl threat to force everyone else to capitulate, and then they still capitulate anyway without that threat in existence, proving they are serious about wanting a just peace.

That will be all it takes to get through Redcloak's fanatical mind that he's served his purpose for the goblinoid people, and that further cooperation with Xykon threatens that, and that it is actually in his interest and the interest of all goblins to work with the Order of the Stick to stop Xykon.

And he has Xykon's phylactery, and can destroy it before they even go fight Xykon to put him down for good, which should prove to the Order of the Stick that unlike before, they can and should now trust Redcloak to keep his word. He is lawful evil, I think? He can always use a backup holy symbol, he doesn't strictly need Xykon's phylactery to be a powerful priest.

I have a lot of other canonical references backing up my assessment on this, mainly involving Xykon and Redcloak's characters as revealed through all the webcomics and Start of Darkness so far. There's a lot of supporting evidence which backs Xykon's willingness to put off fighting the Order right then and there, unwillingness to be destroyed for someone else's pet cause, willingness to both talk and listen while he is fighting, tendency to not use every means at his disposal to destroy someone immediately because he prefers to be amused and goes for style points, and likes fighting and likes bantering, it's less boring than anything else. It's only when he is absolutely furious that he stops going for style points and stops being talkative and goes straight for using his maximum level of power to immediately destroy something.

And we also have a lot of canonical references I can pull up demonstrating that Redcloak learned a lesson from Xykon back at the end of Start Of Darkness, about being willing to debase himself more in order to accomplish his goals. Xykon has known limits, he doesn't want to die, is willing to become a lich or a brain in a jar to not die, and would absolutely balk at being instantly sent to either the Big Fire Below or nonexistence, and wouldn't cooperate with any plan that leads to that. Even Redcloak knows that for sure, which is why he lied to him about the gates right from the beginning. That lie being exposed changes everything, and that lie is most likely to be exposed when Redcloak is arguing or discussing with The Order, either in battle or not, by overhearing it directly, or by scrying on the discussion.

Redcloak, on the other hand, began his story arc with limits, moral nonstarters, things he would never do. He was even a relatively ordinary moral being. There was nothing remotely evil about his character even when he first donned the cloak. It all began with good intentions and noble aspirations and defending himself. Over time, he became more and more convinced that you have to be willing to break a few eggs to make this particular omelet "for the greater good". He became willing to murder innocent bystanders, torture prisoners, and he stopped even feeling remorse when killing his opponents. He became more willing to send people to their deaths if it served his cause, more willing to use force and warfare to get what he wants, and even reject diplomacy because he's become more and more paranoid and disconnected from other people. There is no one in the world that he is even close to anymore, no one he trusts to any degree. He cannot make that leap to trusting Durkon or any negotiated settlement because his entire life, all he's ever been taught is that diplomacy and peace leads to his people being oppressed and his leader and his god stabbed in the back for their trouble, and oppression and genocide inflicted on all goblinoids, and the only way he has ever made any progress at all has been through taking what he feels he deserves, whether it be territory, concessions made by blackmail, information gained through torture, and victories gained by sacrificing goblin lives. He has been taught by experience that nothing works except total warfare and being willing to give up everything for the cause. He is now closer to his goal than ever, why would he stop now?

He needs to actually be defeated militarily, and have his plan of holding the world hostage actually fail in a permanent way before he would be willing to seriously consider another option. If that option is handed to him in his moment of defeat, where he still gets most of everything he wanted, and his alternative is to permanently lose any chance of success and dying in the process and the cloak itself being destroyed, he's going to take the sane option. But only when he is forced to take the sane option.

Diplomacy with him is possible, but not before conflict. He may honor the agreement when it is made, if you can make it.

With Xykon, it's the opposite. Diplomacy with him is possible, before, during, or even after conflict. He just won't honor any agreements for long. But you absolutely could get him to postpone a battle, he's even offered to do so before, with Roy, just because it would be more fun for him if that happened. He was willing to talk to Roy even when Roy was swinging a sword at his face repeatedly, because Xykon has no personal grudge against Roy, and no great need to eliminate any specific hero. He just likes to kill heroes in epic battles in general.

He's a villain because it is fun, NOT for a cause. Redcloak is a villain to make his cause come true. Xykon's cause is himself. Their alliance and therefore their greatest possible threat to the world and to the Order trying to stop them is based on a lie that can easily be exposed, and once exposed, fractures that alliance so badly it literally turns them against each other.

Redcloak won't allow his peaceful hard fought goblinoid equality and nationhood to be threatened by a mad lich bent on destroying goblins for betraying him.

Xykon won't allow Redcloak to actually threaten to destroy his own life or his existence.

They are already in mortal unavoidable conflict, Xykon just doesn't know it yet.

Diplomacy is not only possible, it might be the weapon that causes the most damage to team evil. A small bit of knowledge in Xykon's head would virtually end their combined threat then and there.

That is far, far more damaging than anything Roy's glowing plot sword can accomplish, as badass and cool as it is, and as much as I look forward to seeing it impaled through Xykon's face.

That's a very cool sword and I'll be kinda mad if I don't see it in action in the final battle, smashing Xykon to bits.

But I still think somehow that negotiation and even the act of trying to talk it out, even after the previous failure, will directly or indirectly bring down team evil. They're already in such a fragile alliance that, like madness or gravity, all it takes is a little push.

Not with a sword, but with a few words.

If this comes true, I'll be giddy, and if it does not, then Rich will have fooled me for the 50th time and it will be so excellently written that I will also be giddy and be unsure how things will actually turn out. Both are good.

Bottom line, it's never really gonna be Xykon making peace with everyone, no. And it's probably not going to be Roy wins because sword beats lich, the end.

It's going to be something in between, with a very satisfying twist that was well established in canon and foreshadowed ahead of time so it's not a deus ex machina. That much I'm pretty sure of. Rich has been very, very good about that the entire time he's had a plot to work with at all.

[brian 333]

Xykon: Wait, I've been wrong all along and that stuff that you told me with no supporting evidence which also conveniently accomplishes what you have been attempting while preventing me from getting what I want is true?

Wow, that's so much to think about. Let's see, hmm.

Meteor Swarm.



Why would any member of Team Evil listen to the Order any more than Redcloak did? They gain nothing. Xykon is already in the mindset of, "If I can't have it, burn it all down." Upon learning that the gods will destroy the world if he wins, his reaction will likely be to release The Snarl, zip over to his Astral Fortress of Solitude, and metaphorically eat popcorn as the gods scurry around trying to salvage what they can before The Snarl gets it. Hey, he's got time, and the next world will be brand new; he can get in on the ground floor.