Maximum HD of undead controlled

[Puke]

Hello,

One of my players is a 25th lvl lich.
He wants to create more undeads and keep them under his control.
He uses this seed : https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm
And some conventional means to create undead (create undead and create greater undead).

The seeds makes me wonder : does the seed allow the character to exceed his maximum total of controlled undead ? It's not clear to me.

How many undead should the character be able to have under permanent control ?

He also has the staff that doubles the numbre of HD of undead he can control, but does it apply to undead created via epic spells ?

I don't know if it matters but he has :
INT : 34
WIS : 24
CHA : 28

Regards

[hamishspence]

The seeds makes me wonder : does the seed allow the character to exceed his maximum total of controlled undead ? It's not clear to me.

How many undead should the character be able to have under permanent control ?

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm
A caster can naturally control 1 HD per caster level of undead creatures he or she has personally created, regardless of the method used. If the caster exceeds this number, newly created creatures fall under his or her control, and excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled (the caster chooses which creatures are released).





He also has the staff that doubles the numbre of HD of undead he can control, but does it apply to undead created via epic spells ?


Can't see why it wouldn't apply. The above says "Naturally control" - but with the staff, you are unnaturally controlling the excess ones.

[Puke]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm
A caster can naturally control 1 HD per caster level of undead creatures he or she has personally created, regardless of the method used. If the caster exceeds this number, newly created creatures fall under his or her control, and excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled (the caster chooses which creatures are released).





Can't see why it wouldn't apply. The above says "Naturally control" - but with the staff, you are unnaturally controlling the excess ones.

The seed also states :

For each additional 2 HD of undead to be controlled, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1. Only undead in excess of 20 HD created with this seed can be controlled using this DC adjustment. To both create and control more than 20 HD of undead, increase the Spellcraft DC by +3 per additional 2 HD of undead.

[hamishspence]

Before that:

The animate dead seed allows a character to create 20 HD of undead.

With "Only undead in excess of 20 HD created with this seed can be controlled using this DC adjustment" it shows that the adjusted DC version of the spell only controls high HD undead.

So, a 42 HD caster who wants to create and control 42HD of undead, adjusts the DC by 11x3 (+33), and can create and control two 21HD undead, or any single undead all the way up to 42HD (leaving aside specific adjustments for specific kinds of undead).

[Puke]

Assuming your case, the caster would have a 42HD undead, and he could still control up to his caster level of conventionaly created undeads ?

BTW I thought you could control twice your caster level of undeads : https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm
And double this using https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm
and again : http://dndtools.org/feats/complete-divine--56/undead-mastery--3015/

EDIT2 :

This metal rod is carved to resemble a stack of miniature skulls. Anyone who holds the rod can control twice as many undead than he normally could. For instance, normally a caster can not control more than HD of undead than four times his caster level, but while holding the rod, he can control eight times his caster level of undead.
Moderate necromancy; CL 10th; Craft Rod, desecrate, class ability to turn or rebuke undead; Price 10,000gp

Why does it even states 4 times ? I'm lost.

EDIT 3 :

THe rod States 4 times cuz it assumes you are using Animate dead AND desecrate, I guess. But I do not think it applies to the epic seed. That being said, the epic spells being from 3.0...

[hamishspence]

BTW I thought you could control twice your caster level of undeads : https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm


It says you can't create more than twice your level (at a time) (and that you can't control more than 4x your level)

Perhaps the seed is superficially weaker than the spell, because it's more owing to the Create Undead and Create Greater Undead spells?



THe rod States 4 times cuz it assumes you are using Animate dead AND desecrate, I guess.


Desecrate doubles the amount of undead you can create at a time, but has no effect on the amount you can control.

[ciopo]

What class levels does he have? does he have the wiggle room to "rebuild" itself?

I'm asking because the limit is on caster level, and there are some tricks to "break out" of CL=HD without going infinite.

the one in my mind is the interaction between sublime chord and ultimate magus, assuming the only other arcane class is wizard, a wizard X/ultimate magus10/sublime chord Y would have +25 to arcane caster level from the 10 levels of ultimate magus, because it "double dips" with how sublime chord boosts your caster level for both itself and one other arcane class

anyway, my reading of the seed is that you can control more than your CL of HD by applying the spellcraft DC changes.

For each additional 2 HD of undead to be controlled, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1. Only undead in excess of 20 HD created with this seed can be controlled using this DC adjustment. To both create and control more than 20 HD of undead, increase the Spellcraft DC by +3 per additional 2 HD of undead.
so, +3DC for every extra 2 HD, minus the modifier for type of undead

40HD of skeletons = 23+(20/2*3)-12 =DC 21 spellcraft when he uses the animate dead

animating 3 adult black dragon as skeletons

57HD = 23+(37/2*3)-12 = DC 67 spellcraft, but could be less depending on caster level

let's pretend he has caster level 50, that means his natural control is 50, so it's only +30DC for creating the first 50HD, and +3/2 DC for the last 7HD = DC 52

[Puke]

He is Wizard 15 / 2 Archmage / 8 Shadow Adept

If he develops multiple spells using this seed, to animate different kind of undead, does he have a HD of controlled undead for each seed ?

[Zanos]

The animate dead spell has a limit of 4x your caster level in hit dice of total undead controlled. If he picks up a Rod of Undead Mastery he can double that, so he could control 200HD with the animate dead spell, which should be plenty if he just wants skeletons and zombies.

Things get weird when you use epic spellcasting rules because attention wasn't really paid to them when the epic rules were "updated" for 3.5. By RAW if you use the epic seed you can't control more than CL*1 HD worth of undead "by any method" unless you augment then spell by increasing the spellcraft DC. I'd recommend just ruling that the animate epic seed has its own, separate pool from other non-epic animation spells.

[Puke]

The animate dead spell has a limit of 4x your caster level in hit dice of total undead controlled. If he picks up a Rod of Undead Mastery he can double that, so he could control 200HD with the animate dead spell, which should be plenty if he just wants skeletons and zombies.

Things get weird when you use epic spellcasting rules because attention wasn't really paid to them when the epic rules were "updated" for 3.5. By RAW if you use the epic seed you can't control more than CL*1 HD worth of undead "by any method" unless you augment then spell by increasing the spellcraft DC. I'd recommend just ruling that the animate epic seed has its own, separate pool from other non-epic animation spells.

I pretty much thought the fact it's 3.0 would make things weird... the whole epic spell thingy can get really weird and cheesy when you forget it was not meant for 3.5.
I found an epic spellcasting overhall made by someone but I cannot remember where it was.