3.5e Template flight speed question

[Ranged Ranger]

So I'm trying to apply a template to a dragon and the template speed entry says: "gains a fly speed equal to its base land speed with perfect maneuverability."

The base creature has a speed entry of "40 ft., fly 300 ft. (poor), swim 30 ft."

What is officially supposed to happen here?
a) "40 ft., fly 40 ft. (perfect), swim 30 ft."
b) "40 ft., fly 300 ft. (poor), swim 30 ft."
c) "40 ft., fly 300 ft. (perfect), swim 30 ft."
d) split the difference somehow?

[Aracor]

This creature now has four modes of movement in total.

#1: 40 ft land speed
#2: 40 ft fly speed (perfect)
#3: 300 ft fly speed (poor)
#4: 30 ft swim speed.

[Jervis]

What Aracor said basically. A creature can have more than one form of flight, otherwise the fly spell would be a very good way to kneecap a dragons fly speed. (Well not good but it would probably come up at least once) It can fly at 300 feet and slam its face into rocks or it can fly at 40 perfectly

[Gruftzwerg]

RAW, I have to disagree here. Imho a stat (a variable) can only have a single value and not multiple.

If an effect says: "you gain Strength: 20" yo1u wouldn't argue that you have multiple STR scores either.

Technically (by RAW) the target creature gains a flight speed of 30 perfect, FULL STOP here. Anything else (regarding base fly speed) becomes irrelevant.

But I do see this (RAW) solution as impractical. So, take this as you like imho.

[Crake]

RAW, I have to disagree here. Imho a stat (a variable) can only have a single value and not multiple.

If an effect says: "you gain Strength: 20" yo1u wouldn't argue that you have multiple STR scores either.

Technically (by RAW) the target creature gains a flight speed of 30 perfect, FULL STOP here. Anything else (regarding base fly speed) becomes irrelevant.

But I do see this (RAW) solution as impractical. So, take this as you like imho.

Disagree. Movement modes aren't an apples to apples comparison to ability scores, but even ability scores have precedence of creatures having multiple. I can't think of an exact example off the top of my head, but I recall a spell that granted a user appendages that had a separate strength score than their own.

Additionally, flight can have multiple sources, and can be differentiated between supernatural and extraordinary. Take a half dragon beholder for example. It gets wings, but it can already float around slowly like a baloon. A half dragon beholder doesn't LOSE the ability to float around like a baloon though, but it does gain the ability to pump it's wings and move faster, but more clumsily.

I'm in camp multiple flight speeds.

[Gruftzwerg]

Disagree. Movement modes aren't an apples to apples comparison to ability scores, but even ability scores have precedence of creatures having multiple. I can't think of an exact example off the top of my head, but I recall a spell that granted a user appendages that had a separate strength score than their own.
In your theoretical scenario, the spell creates a specific exception where you "gain an additional appendage with a seperate STR score to your own". I don't see the template calling out that it gives you an additional flight speed to any flight speed you had before.


Additionally, flight can have multiple sources, and can be differentiated between supernatural and extraordinary. Take a half dragon beholder for example. It gets wings, but it can already float around slowly like a baloon. A half dragon beholder doesn't LOSE the ability to float around like a baloon though, but it does gain the ability to pump it's wings and move faster, but more clumsily.

I'm in camp multiple flight speeds.

Separate Sources don't equal to always stacking nor in always adding. And I don't see any rule that would support his claim (on a general level).

If a creature gains multiple sources of flight, imho by RAW sole the last active instance counts at the moment. The Beholder doesn't LOSE any ability here. The others are just effectively irrelevant. Same as if you had multiple form changing abilities on you. None of those effects vanish. But sole the last active instance counts.

[Khedrac]

I agree with the first response from Aracor.

And my example to use is Damage Reduction: If a creature with DR10/magic manages to gain DR5/slashing the DR10/magic isn't negated, the two DR sources work in parallel.
In the same way the two flight modes work in parallel.

[Gruftzwerg]

I agree with the first response from Aracor.

And my example to use is Damage Reduction: If a creature with DR10/magic manages to gain DR5/slashing the DR10/magic isn't negated, the two DR sources work in parallel.
In the same way the two flight modes work in parallel.

While DR may look similar from a common sense point of view, by RAW they are not.

This is because the definition of DR explicitly calls out that creatures may have multiple DR and how that resolves. I don't see any flying rule so far making the same claim. (If you have found a reference for that claim pls let me know.. I've been searching for one for some while..^^)

[nedz]

I'm not sure RAW covers this case - so you have to make your own ruling.

I remember once applying the Half-Fey template to a Bronze Dragon. When he was in his Alternate Human form he got the butterfly wings, and when in his Dragon form he got the Dragon flight.

YMMV

[NinjaGuy]

I'm not sure RAW covers this case - so you have to make your own ruling.

Bingo. But I will say that the specific template would matter, and could help make an easy ruling. Nedz' made sense for his situation. If it were the ghost template being applied, I'd likely rule that the the ghost's flight overrides the base creature's flight. If it were a natural flight and an Ex or Su flight added, I'd likely rule that they both apply, like Aracor's suggestion.

What template are you adding?