Exploding Die: Re-emphasizing damage over status effect

[Cikomyr2]

I have been musing recently over the impact exploding dice would have in DnD. And i was thinking it would be a boon for the meat-and-potatoe attack and damage dealers.

Have you ever tried exploding damage dice in your game, and do you have experimental tweaks and adjustment to add on top? Like should you prevent exploding dice on AoE and only allow for anything that allows an attack? Do you allow exploding dice for healing? Etc..

[olskool]

I have been musing recently over the impact exploding dice would have in DnD. And i was thinking it would be a boon for the meat-and-potatoe attack and damage dealers.

Have you ever tried exploding damage dice in your game, and do you have experimental tweaks and adjustment to add on top? Like should you prevent exploding dice on AoE and only allow for anything that allows an attack? Do you allow exploding dice for healing? Etc..

Only in SHADOWRUN. We modified the game to have Target Numbers from 2 to 10 and used D10s (this was before the Vampire games too) to roll for our skills instead of D6s. We also modified the success tree to copy the "security ratings" that Deckers used. So our Success system looked like this...

Green = 1 Success
Yellow = 2 Successes
Orange = 3 Successes
Red = 4 Successes
Black = 5 Successes

So if I said: "Unlocking that door is a 6 Yellow Test." You knew you had to beat a 6 on D10 with at least two dice to succeed. The "exploding" came in on the Skill dice. Anytime you rolled a 10, the die "exploded" and you got to roll another die for success. Thus, it would be possible for a lucky roll to give a PC with only ONE Die to roll, the possibility of getting extra successes (based on how many 10s they could roll). I have seen a single die explode 3 times... ONCE.

In D&D I might allow exploding Damage dice on a Critical hit, but we use a system where you can opt-out of rolling To Hits for multiple attacks and just roll a number of damage dice equal to your normal number of attacks. So IF Joe has a sword doing 1D8 and also has three attacks, he can roll to attack a single foe for 3D8, three foes for 1D8 each, or two foes doing 1D8 to one and 2d8 to the other.

[animorte]

Exploding damage dice is really useful on any damage rolls, I think. It's hardly overpowered since it doesn't happen very often. But with this, I see people actively opting for D6 instead of D8 options, etc. to increase chances. They're also aware that enemies are allowed the same (and I roll dice in the open, but that's a different topic). Because of this, the party can have the usual moments of confidence but they tend to play smarter, being aware of the potential.

On critical attack rolls, we automatically maximize the damage dice then double, no rerolls or out of hand exploding happening there. It's just guaranteed maximum damage.


The "exploding" came in on the Skill dice.
This is a really cool idea. I hadn't thought of a legitimate use for exploding skill dice. Might try that, if you don't mind.

[LordShade]

2e had exploding dice for firearms. It was fun but not truly impactful. I don't think it would significantly mess with balance if you did it for damage rolls.

[Zhorn]

Have you ever tried exploding damage dice in your game, and do you have experimental tweaks and adjustment to add on top?
Something I played about with was exploding dice on maximum vs minimum rolls.
So on a maximum explode it acts as increasing the damage potential of an attack
while on a minimum explode it raises the floor and makes for more reliable damage.

After playing about with both, I've found I've started to favor exploding on minimum rolls, and having it as a leveled property, like is the case with +1/+2/+3 weapons.
So an exploding(1) adds an additional dice on the roll of a 1, while and exploding(2) adds an additional dice on a roll of 1 or 2.
I used these for firearms pre-Tashas and the Gunner feat, not as a magical bonus, but as a baseline property of firearms.

[MoiMagnus]

It's hardly overpowered since it doesn't happen very often. But with this, I see people actively opting for D6 instead of D8 options, etc. to increase chances.

I'd note that in term of average, the d8 non-exploding is still better than the d6 exploding (4.5 vs 4.2). More generally the exploding part of a dN is multiplie the average by N/(N-1), which is not that much.

But that's great because that means you have a mechanics that a lot of players find fun and that isn't actually OP so it doesn't throw away the system.

[JellyPooga]

I'd note that in term of average, the d8 non-exploding is still better than the d6 exploding (4.5 vs 4.2). More generally the exploding part of a dN is multiplie the average by N/(N-1), which is not that much.

But that's great because that means you have a mechanics that a lot of players find fun and that isn't actually OP so it doesn't throw away the system.

Where you will see an difference is in comparisons between e.g. the Greatsword 2d6 vs. Greataxe 1d12. The former will "explode" far more often if each die is taken individually, or far less often if maximum result is what triggers the explosion. Whether or not that's a good thing will depend on your table, I suppose.

For me, I'm not too fussed on exploding damage so much as seeing the d20 replaced with smaller die type. The linear swing of the d20 is hands-down the worst aspect of D&D. Replacing it with 2d6 or even 3d4 and allowing those dice to explode would create a very different dynamic of play in which modifiers to the roll count for more than blind luck and where tasks of average difficulty can be accomplished more reliably while challenging or heroic level deeds require heroic levels of competence (or a deal of blind luck!).

To head off the question of reducing the numeric range from 1-20 to 2-12 or 3-12, rather than trying to get as close to 20 as possible, it's because with mods and the explosion, you'll still be able to hit DCs in the 20-30 range and the recommended challenge ratings (DC:10 Average, DC:15 Hard, etc.) actually make sense, especially considering the higher reliability of getting mean results. To me, anyway.

[animorte]

For me, I'm not too fussed on exploding damage so much as seeing the d20 replaced with smaller die type. The linear swing of the d20 is hands-down the worst aspect of D&D.
The linear swing certainly can provide for noteworthy memories if your table is accustomed to roleplaying the degrees of failure/success (which, to be fair can be done without the d20).

Are you referring to the Bell Curve rolls using a 3d6 instead? There is also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/7pprpn/bell_curve_of_a_d20_vs_other_dice_sets_oc/

[Cikomyr2]

Well i was thinking that a crit would just mean "you start as if your dice pool already exploded once".

I was actually wondering of the point of exploding D20s for attack rolls and skill checks.

I took the whole idea of exploding damage dice from Savage world - which is a completely different system, i get it - where the equivalent of a "crit" on a hit is simply adding a single d6 of damage.

So i got thinking of maybe multiple threshold for crits? "For every Y above the AC you do +1dX damage"? So exploding d20 rolls could really be something.

[animorte]

Yeah we used to do the extra rolls of dice for critical, but when you roll really low damage, it completely defeats the purpose of a supposed critical hit.

[olskool]

Yeah we used to do the extra rolls of dice for critical, but when you roll really low damage, it completely defeats the purpose of a supposed critical hit.

Try This...

on a roll of 20, WHEN A ROLL OF 20 IS NOT NEEDED, you score a Critical Success. You do your maximum damage plus you pick from the following list:

Enhanced Position: You find yourself in a dominating position, take ADVANTAGE on your next attack!

Overextend Foe: You cause your foe to overextend themselves causing them to have DISADVANTAGE next round.

Trip Foe: Your opponent must make a DEX Save v Your STR (+PROF Bonus) or fall prone and take the ENTIRE next round to stand up again.

Redirect Foe: You force your foe to move 5ft in a direction of your choice or change facing in a direction of your choosing.

Riposte Maneuver: IF you still have your REACTION available, you may launch a SECOND attack against your foe or another foe within your weapon's reach!

Disarm Opponent: Your opponent must save versus either your STR or DEX (whichever you use for Damage) with their DEX or be Disarmed. The weapon falls to the ground [1-2= at their feet, 3-4 = 5ft away, 5-6 = 10ft away] and requires their full combat action to retrieve.

Weapon Specific Critical Effects:

Impale (Piercing Weapons): Your weapon becomes lodged in the target. You may make a STR Save v AC to withdraw the weapon (doing rolled damage) or leave it in place. The victim will suffer rolled damage every time they move or attack until it is removed. Removing an impaling weapon yourself requires either a CON or STR Save (whichever is lower) v Damage (+PROF Bonus). IF the Damage exceeds the target's STR score, they must make a STR Save against a DC of 10 + [Damage which exceeded STR] or be knocked down. They will require their FULL MOVE to stand again.

Slash (Slashing Weapons): You deliver a blow that allows an additional roll for damage, but IF you score a max damage result on that die it "explodes," and you get to roll another die again. The damage die can "explode" an unlimited number of times. IF the damage sustained exceeds the target's STR score, they must roll a STR Save v DC 10+ [damage in excess of STR] or be knocked down. It will take their entire move score to stand up again.

Crush (bludgeoning Weapons): You deliver a massive strike that allows an additional damage roll which "explodes" like in Slash above. In addition, the target must make a CON Save V Damage (+PROF BONUS) or be STUNNED for next round. They will also be subject to knockdown like the in the Impale & Slash attacks above.

Entangle (Whips, Nets, Lassos, Chains): You entangle your opponent with your weapon. They must make a STR Save v Damage (+PROF Bonus) to be able to move. They will suffer DISADVANTAGE while entangled. You may attempt to Trip them by rolling a 1D20 with a target number of either their STR or DEX (whichever is higher). Success means you drop them prone.

Sunder Shield, Weapon, or Armor (Axes, Warhammers, Picks, Maces, & Flails): You may pick from your attacker's weapon, shield, or armor and damage them! The item in question must Save v Damage Inflicted (+Prof BONUS) or be broken. Armor will lose 1 AC due to being rent or dented.

Pin Weapon (Sword Breakers, Shields, Staves, Spears, Polearms, Whips, Nets, Lassos, HTH): You use your own weapon or shield to PIN your opponent's weapon to a wall, the ground, or their own body! The foe must make a DEX Save v Damage (+PROF BONUS) or be pinned. NEITHER COMBATANT can move nor can the pinned AND pinning weapon be used (this is why Shields are traditionally used to pin weapons). You (the pinning attacker) can attack with another weapon but at DISADVANTAGE due to the Pin.

These Special Maneuvers will "spice up" your crits. We even allow our Martials to use these IF they roll 5+ over their needed To Hit number.

[olskool]

Exploding damage dice is really useful on any damage rolls, I think. It's hardly overpowered since it doesn't happen very often. But with this, I see people actively opting for D6 instead of D8 options, etc. to increase chances. They're also aware that enemies are allowed the same (and I roll dice in the open, but that's a different topic). Because of this, the party can have the usual moments of confidence but they tend to play smarter, being aware of the potential.

On critical attack rolls, we automatically maximize the damage dice then double, no rerolls or out of hand exploding happening there. It's just guaranteed maximum damage.


This is a really cool idea. I hadn't thought of a legitimate use for exploding skill dice. Might try that, if you don't mind.

Use it all you want. Flying Buffalo's Tunnels and Trolls invented it. We just adopted it for Shadowrun.

[Hiro Quester]

We played a short campaign of Deadlands recently that has exploding die. It's awesome and exciting when it gives you a really dramatically effective damage roll against the monsters and bad guys.

It's absolutely brutal when the monsters or bad guys explode damage on players, though.

My low-level PC was completely one-shotted into unconsciousness, twice, and died the second time (when the monster's d6 attack exploded three times into 22 points damage).

that's when we all decided to convert the game to 5e rules and I rolled up a vengeance paladin to finish out the campaign.

[Cikomyr2]

We played a short campaign of Deadlands recently that has exploding die. It's awesome and exciting when it gives you a really dramatically effective damage roll against the monsters and bad guys.

It's absolutely brutal when the monsters or bad guys explode damage on players, though.

My low-level PC was completely one-shotted into unconsciousness, twice, and died the second time (when the monster's d6 attack exploded three times into 22 points damage).

that's when we all decided to convert the game to 5e rules and I rolled up a vengeance paladin to finish out the campaign.

Did you rolled to see.if you became Harrowed? 😄

[JellyPooga]

The linear swing certainly can provide for noteworthy memories if your table is accustomed to roleplaying the degrees of failure/success (which, to be fair can be done without the d20).

Are you referring to the Bell Curve rolls using a 3d6 instead? There is also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/7pprpn/bell_curve_of_a_d20_vs_other_dice_sets_oc/

If by "noteworthy" you mean "unsatisfyingly, frustratingly random", yes :smallbiggrin: My issue with the d20 is that is doesn't produce coherent results because of the equal chance of rolling a 1 as a 20. Small modifiers (lower than 10) emphasise that gap, making then pointless and large ones (greater than 10) render it largely irrelevant. When trying to gauge appropriate challenges or create any kind of verisimilitude, a linear RNG that large simply doesn't cut it.

Using a bell-curve gives you more predictable results that gravitate towards the mean. That allows you to design adventures intelligently and give tempo to pacing by tailoring challenges to the desired scenario to a much greater degree without having to overly consider the crap-shoot chance that the PCs are just going to flub everything forever. I mean, it happens with enough frequency to be a problem that a player will simply roll nothing over 5 on their d20 and have a thoroughly frustrating game session. That's Not FunTM for anyone involved. Only seeing the extremes of the curve infrequently makes the narrative beats they produce that much more significant.

Simply put, using a lower range and a curve instead of a line makes character modifiers the primary deciding factor of success or failure instead of pure luck. Adding the element of exploding dice to it gives a sense of excitement that the 5% chance of rolling a natural 20 can only dream of. On top of that it opens the top end of possibility to enable truly heroic endeavours, whilst on average grounding the game with a higher degree of verisimilitude due to avoiding the regular swings of character competence the d20 enforces.

[AsuraKyoko]

We played a short campaign of Deadlands recently that has exploding die. It's awesome and exciting when it gives you a really dramatically effective damage roll against the monsters and bad guys.

It's absolutely brutal when the monsters or bad guys explode damage on players, though.

My low-level PC was completely one-shotted into unconsciousness, twice, and died the second time (when the monster's d6 attack exploded three times into 22 points damage).

that's when we all decided to convert the game to 5e rules and I rolled up a vengeance paladin to finish out the campaign.

My group play a lot of Savage Worlds, and the exploding dice is always fun; you can get some really crazy rolls (rarely). We have a running joke that when one person DMs, the most dangerous enemies are the mooks with a 2d4 damage weapon (which, in the system, is pretty much the lowest damage weapon). Some weak thug with a knife will run up and stab the guy in heavy combat armor for, like, 30 damage or something and take them out of the fight.

[animorte]

If by "noteworthy" you mean "unsatisfyingly, frustratingly random", yes :smallbiggrin: My issue with the d20 is that is doesn't produce coherent results because of the equal chance of rolling a 1 as a 20.
-snip-
On top of that it opens the top end of possibility to enable truly heroic endeavours, whilst on average grounding the game with a higher degree of verisimilitude due to avoiding the regular swings of character competence the d20 enforces.

I agree 100% well said!

[Chronos]

Exploding dice are one of those things that everyone oohs and aahs over, until they actually see it in play. Sure, it's possible to deal an arbitrarily large amount of damage in a single hit... but on average, it only adds about one point per die (depending on precisely how you define your explosions).

[animorte]

Exploding dice are one of those things that everyone oohs and aahs over, until they actually see it in play. Sure, it's possible to deal an arbitrarily large amount of damage in a single hit... but on average, it only adds about one point per die (depending on precisely how you define your explosions).

Exactly. It's there as a random nice occasion that feels good when it happens, just like a natural 20 for crit (except exploding dice happens more often). Overall doesn't add much, but in the moment it feels good.

[Hiro Quester]

Did you rolled to see.if you became Harrowed? 😄

We were about to, but then switched to 5e, and a change to vengeance paladin was a more fun-to-play option, rather than trying to adapt Harrowed.

[Zhorn]

Exploding dice are one of those things that everyone oohs and aahs over, until they actually see it in play. Sure, it's possible to deal an arbitrarily large amount of damage in a single hit... but on average, it only adds about one point per die (depending on precisely how you define your explosions).

Part of why I've started to favour exploding at the low end instead of the high end of a dice roll.
Sure you don't get the "WHOA CRAZY BIG" moments the same way, but the added mitigation against low rolls, especially on crits, is more satisfying in the long run.

On the high end: turns a good moment into a great moment
On the low end: turns a bad moment into a still okay moment

[loki_ragnarock]

Part of why I've started to favour exploding at the low end instead of the high end of a dice roll.
Sure you don't get the "WHOA CRAZY BIG" moments the same way, but the added mitigation against low rolls, especially on crits, is more satisfying in the long run.

On the high end: turns a good moment into a great moment
On the low end: turns a bad moment into a still okay moment

How would that interact with, for instance, Great Weapon Fighting Style?

[Zhorn]

How would that interact with, for instance, Great Weapon Fighting Style?
Until the dice has been locked in there is no exploding
fighting style reroll first, then the locked in dice value is what can explode

[Joe the Rat]

Savage Worlds is a good point of reference here, since being better at something means you roll larger dice, but smaller dice have a better chance of exploding. the tradeoff in terms of ability was the Luck die - a fixed d6 that you always roll alongside, and you take your best total of the two dice. Every player has a fixed odds of boom on one of their dice.

If you are using something where a single die size is used, exploding is pretty straightforward. One of my other d20 heartbreakers (Savage Kingdoms... I see a pattern here) uses exploding 20's (and imploding 1s in older versions) alongside a 3.5 style ability stacker, with the wrinkle that everything is on that d20 - your damage is determined by how far above the "AC" you roll, capped by weapon. That meant the nat 20 is seriously critical, since most humanoids don't have that many HP. It's randomly brutal. If I wanted to add a system to up damage, I'd use the AC overage as additional damage. It would mitigate the "AC8, roll a 19 to hit, 1 damage" bad feels.

With variable dice (damage rolls, f'rex), you have to decide if you are comfortable with raising the lower dice average, with miracle rolls. Limiting to a single explosion, the d4 average goes up .625 (to 3.125), with larger dice having diminishing increases. with open chains, the numbers shift, and your distribution has a nigh-infinite right tail, but those high numbers are ever smaller probabilities. A dagger (d4) has a 1/64 chance of doing 12+ damage, far less likely than on a Greataxe (1/12), or the same odds as doing 16+ with a Longbow (d8). This also makes Mauls and Greatswords interesting, since you have multiple dice with which to explode - about a 30.6% chance of having at least one go boom - better than the vanilla dagger.

But that also means giant-sized monsters are going to be extra scary, since they are typically throwing 2-4 dice for damage. Good odds. Make 'em scary again.

If you want to take this on, my recommendations:
1) Requires an attack roll. This cuts the AOE superkill down, and frankly casters have enough going on.
2) damage rolls from the source only. No exploding hexes, exploding superiority dice, exploding smites, or exploding sneak attacks. You want to keep this simple to start, and keep it a bit special. A mid-level rogue is likely to roll a six on the sneak dice, with decent odds of multiple sixes.
3) Does apply to critical damage - double the weapon dice, let them both explode.
4) And this may just be me, but weapon attacks only. I would like to see a little more martial love.

[GreyBlack]

I have been musing recently over the impact exploding dice would have in DnD. And i was thinking it would be a boon for the meat-and-potatoe attack and damage dealers.

Have you ever tried exploding damage dice in your game, and do you have experimental tweaks and adjustment to add on top? Like should you prevent exploding dice on AoE and only allow for anything that allows an attack? Do you allow exploding dice for healing? Etc..

........... I'm now curious how to maximize damage dice output in a build.

Thanks.