3.P - Spells That Have Downsides Just For Knowing?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've got a character with (ostensibly) virtually every spell and psionic power in existence as powers known, due to shenanigans and StP erudite cheese.

Are there any such effects that have negative consequences just for knowing them, such as sanity damage or taint?

I'd like to try to specifically exclude those -- depending on what the downsides are, of course.

[Silva Stormrage]

None that I know of, I know there are some spells that grant you a small bonus for learning (+1 Diplomacy for example) but none that give a penalty for just knowing.

The closest thing I can think of is Apocalypses from the Sky which causes 1d3 wisdom damage for preparing the spell and each day it is prepared. That doesn't apply to StP Erudite though.

Out of curiosity how are you getting Ranger/Paladin spells on StP Erudite? I know how to get cleric/druid spells as arcane spells but not sure how to get those as arcane spells without a lenient DM ruling that southern magician and similar tricks work for that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Out of curiosity how are you getting Ranger/Paladin spells on StP Erudite? I know how to get cleric/druid spells as arcane spells but not sure how to get those as arcane spells without a lenient DM ruling that southern magician and similar tricks work for that.Alternative Source Spell should work, since you can prep spells you know as either arcane or divine. There are also various ways to add divine spells onto arcane lists, such as Extra Spell and wyrm wizard.

[Dalmosh]

Again, won't apply to StP Erudite...

But given that RAW a Wizard starts play with every Wiz/Sor cantrip in the game scribed into their spellbook, and spellbooks have finite pages...

Depending on the amount of random 3rd party content the DM is using in their campaign, accruing many surplus niche to the point of useless cantrips would start costing you money and consuming your resources.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Again, won't apply to StP Erudite...

But given that RAW a Wizard starts play with every Wiz/Sor cantrip in the game scribed into their spellbook, and spellbooks have finite pages...

Depending on the amount of random 3rd party content the DM is using in their campaign, accruing many surplus niche to the point of useless cantrips would start costing you money and consuming your resources.The spells are free, even if the books aren't. So buy a few extra books to fill with the cantrips you don't want, then sell 'em for WAY more than you bought 'em for.

[PraxisVetli]

Out of curiosity how are you getting Ranger/Paladin spells on StP Erudite? I know how to get cleric/druid spells as arcane spells but not sure how to get those as arcane spells without a lenient DM ruling that southern magician and similar tricks work for that.

Silver Flame Pyromancer gets Ranger as Arcane.

[Blackhawk748]

A bunch of Corrupt spells have negatives for having them prepped, but that's all I can think of

[the_tick_rules]

there are a bunch of spells on book of exalted deeds that have consequences for casting them but not merely knowing them if that helps.

[ShurikVch]

Sanity (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm) rules: you got Sanity penalty for learning your spells - by acquiring ranks in the Knowledge (Forbidden Lore) - and thus, eventually may go permanently insane

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sanity (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm) rules: you got Sanity penalty for learning your spells - by acquiring ranks in the Knowledge (Forbidden Lore) - and thus, eventually may go permanently insaneOh, um...

Thanks for telling me about that. It's not a spell, but believe it or not I DID take ranks in that skill with this character, and I didn't know about that, so maybe I should minimize my ranks and go with lots of bonuses, instead...

[YellowJohn]

Silver Flame Pyromancer gets Ranger as Arcane.

Silver Flame Pyromancer gets *Paladin* as arcane.
Is there a class that gets ranger as arcane? I have a character who is very interested indeed...

[remetagross]

Is there a class that gets ranger as arcane? I have a character who is very interested indeed...

A somewhat tricky way to achieve this: take a Paladin, have him take levels in the Prestige Ranger prestige class from Unearthed Arcana, and bam all Ranger spells are now added to your character's spell list. From here on, argue that these Ranger spells are now also Paladin spells, and take levels in Silver Flame Pyromancer?

Or enter Prestige ranger with an arcane spellcasting class by faking the requirements through UMD: now by RAW you add the Ranger spells to your spell list, the class description is not specifying to which spell list that would be added and you only have one available.

Or have a Ranger with Alternate Spell Source and Scribe Scroll create an arcane scroll of whatever spell you need?

[ShurikVch]

Is there a class that gets ranger as arcane? I have a character who is very interested indeed...
If you can bear with loss of three caster levels, then Eldritch Master PrC (Dragon #280) at 4th level can add any other spell list to their arcane spell list

[remetagross]

Ah, a Wyrm Wizard could also produce scrolls of arcane Ranger spells at-will. It might not be what you need for your character, but it's there if you need it.

[ShurikVch]

Also, Geomancer with Spell Versatility 4 (or Spell Versatility 6 - for Mystic Ranger)

[Troacctid]

You must permanently suffer a -1 penalty to your Constitution score in order to learn cerebrotic spells.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You must permanently suffer a -1 penalty to your Constitution score in order to learn cerebrotic spells.Thanks for getting us back on track. Yeah, that's not something I'd want to deal with, unless I have an odd Con score, I guess?

[ShurikVch]

You need a living worm of Kyuss in your body in order to cast any of wormbound spells (Dragon #343)
In case you die while having a living worm of Kyuss in your body, you rise as a spawn of Kyuss within 1d6+4 rounds

[Gemini476]

Oh, um...

Thanks for telling me about that. It's not a spell, but believe it or not I DID take ranks in that skill with this character, and I didn't know about that, so maybe I should minimize my ranks and go with lots of bonuses, instead...

Considering that the first line in that skill's "special" section is "You cannot gain ranks in this skill by spending skill points.", that seems wise.

[Jervis]

None that I know of, I know there are some spells that grant you a small bonus for learning (+1 Diplomacy for example) but none that give a penalty for just knowing.

The closest thing I can think of is Apocalypses from the Sky which causes 1d3 wisdom damage for preparing the spell and each day it is prepared. That doesn't apply to StP Erudite though.

Out of curiosity how are you getting Ranger/Paladin spells on StP Erudite? I know how to get cleric/druid spells as arcane spells but not sure how to get those as arcane spells without a lenient DM ruling that southern magician and similar tricks work for that.

A: what spell gives +1 diplomacy? I, as a Sha’ir, must know these things.

B: conveniently also Sha’ir. A Sha’ir that goes PrC Paladin/Ranger (assuming they use normal tricks to qualify) can do it easily.

[Gemini476]

A: what spell gives +1 diplomacy? I, as a Sha’ir, must know these things.

The Dragon Magic spell benefits are explicitly just "any character who has a list of spells known", sadly, and "not to characters who prepare spells from a class list or a spellbook".

Adoration of the Frightful is the one that gives a +1 competence bonus on Diplomacy checks, anyhow. Bard/Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard 3, Hexblade 2.

[Telonius]

I'd think that several spells from BoEF would probably qualify, though not necessarily in a mechanical sense. More like really embarrassing if somebody ever saw it in your spellbook or saw you casting it.

[Jervis]

The Dragon Magic spell benefits are explicitly just "any character who has a list of spells known", sadly, and "not to characters who prepare spells from a class list or a spellbook".

Adoration of the Frightful is the one that gives a +1 competence bonus on Diplomacy checks, anyhow. Bard/Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard 3, Hexblade 2.

Thanks. Sha’ir have spells known, they can prepare spells outside of that, though, so this might be useful. Of course competence is a common bonus so it only comes on line if your magic items are gone.


I'd think that several spells from BoEF would probably qualify, though not necessarily in a mechanical sense. More like really embarrassing if somebody ever saw it in your spellbook or saw you casting it.

That Unseen Servant variant is probably the most obvious example

[YellowJohn]

You must permanently suffer a -1 penalty to your Constitution score in order to learn cerebrotic spells.

This isn't quite true. The difference is largely sematic, but I think it's worth pointing out...
Cerebrotic spells are from Dragon Magazine, and don't appear on any class spell list. Instead, you usually have to acquire the 'Cerebrosis' feat (usually by spending gold; it's a weird feat). Having the feat is what costs you a point of Con.
If you are using Shenanigans (TM) to get the spell, you may be able to get the spells without the feat.

[Jervis]

I've got a character with (ostensibly) virtually every spell and psionic power in existence as powers known, due to shenanigans and StP erudite cheese.

Are there any such effects that have negative consequences just for knowing them, such as sanity damage or taint?

I'd like to try to specifically exclude those -- depending on what the downsides are, of course.

BTW I never asked. Did you use raw shenanigans(tm) to get all the spells or is this the result of stuff happening in a game? If this is a loop or exploit I’d like to know

[MaxiDuRaritry]

BTW I never asked. Did you use raw shenanigans(tm) to get all the spells or is this the result of stuff happening in a game? If this is a loop or exploit I’d like to knowRaw RAW (Rawr) shenanigans. Low-epic character (lvl 21 gestalt) with Leadership. Got a StP erudite as a minion, a bunch of lower level spellcasters as minions, and a few thought bottles for nesting (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?217819-Nesting-Thought-Bottles-millions-of-wishes). Between psychic chirurgery and psychic reformation, along with an extraordinary amount of XP recycling via the thought bottles, the lower level casters have access to every kind of spell I could think of, including converting divine to arcane spells. The erudite learned all of those spells (as well as all psionic powers via more thought bottle stuff), then passed them on to me.

Gonna skip any spells I don't want to learn because the downsides suck, although it appears there aren't many of those. Mostly it's just penalties and damage and such from casting them or preparing them, not knowing them.

[ShurikVch]

Considering that the first line in that skill's "special" section is "You cannot gain ranks in this skill by spending skill points.", that seems wise.
Exactly: you get ranks in this skill either by contacting otherworldly creatures (which agreeing to teach you), or reading forbidden tomes
Thus - it's no so much "spells by itself" which causing sanity loss/gain in Knowledge (Forbidden Lore), as the "only two possible sources of spells force you to get it"

[Malphegor]

None that I know of, I know there are some spells that grant you a small bonus for learning (+1 Diplomacy for example) but none that give a penalty for just knowing.

The closest thing I can think of is Apocalypses from the Sky which causes 1d3 wisdom damage for preparing the spell and each day it is prepared. That doesn't apply to StP Erudite though.

Out of curiosity how are you getting Ranger/Paladin spells on StP Erudite? I know how to get cleric/druid spells as arcane spells but not sure how to get those as arcane spells without a lenient DM ruling that southern magician and similar tricks work for that.

Hoping it’s not so long since this thread was up that it’s a necro, but I’ve found a way to get any spell for an erudite: Wyrm Wizard cohorts. Learn the spells they know, which can be off any list up to a certain level that the WW knows as if it was always an arcane spell then, due to magic-psionics-transparency Psychic Reformation them to reset the powers, that is, spells they picked for their wyrm wizard levelup.

Result: you’ve got slow access to every spell. Ideally you want your wyrm wizard to have either wizard casting so they can make backup copies of their levelup learnt spells before you change it, thus they spend nothing while you broaden both their powerset and your own.