Help with a Pathfinder1st edition Paladin feat build options

[Razgriez]

Hello, got a question involving possibly having to rebuild my Paladin character in a Pathfinder campaign or at least seeing if the build I was looking at first is alright.

Here's the important details:

Starting build concept: Sword and Board Defensive/Tank/Back up healing.
Human Paladin 7

Strength 16, Dexterity 12, Constitution 14, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 11, Charisma 15

Feats: 1: Step-up/ Bonus: Shield Focus / 3: Extra Lay on Hands/ 5: Improved Shield Bash / 7: TBD.

Key equipment: Masterwork Scimitar and Falchion, +1 Light Steel Quick draw shield, +1 Full Plate. Amulet of Natural Armor +1, +3 Strength Composite Longbow +1

The idea I had in mind up to this point, (and because unfortunately I only recently just discovered about Upsetting Shield Style since this was the first Pathfinder group I've joined), was to get Stumbling Bash at this level, and Toppling Bash at 11th. (Campaign we're playing is looking to be about 17th level by the end)

The question is: Is this build decent, and suggestions for 9th level feat? If not, suggestions and do I rebuild or replace this character?

[Kurald Galain]

Paladins overall are very, very solid in PF.

I'd say your ability scores are all over the place and could benefit from more focus (unless they're rolled and you're stuck with that). Also, why is your longbow magical when your main melee weapon isn't?

Using a shield is solid, but this particular shield line of feats isn't very good (also noting that style feats take a swift to activate, and so does Smite Evil). Fey Foundling is a good feat on a paladin; other feats to consider are Lunge, Blind-Fight, Flickering Steps, and of course Power Attack. HTH!

[Rynjin]

Fey Foundling is almost a must-pick for Paladins at 1st level.

If you want to be a sword and board man as a Paladin, I'll disagree with Kurald; I think Upsetting Shield Style is pretty legit for one simple reason: it lets you take Unhindering Shield and use a buckler, but still bash, so you can still use Lay on Hands to heal yourself while using a shield.

A sample build path:

1.) Fey Foundling (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling/)
Human Bonus: Shield Focus
3.) Upsetting Shield Style
5.) Improved Shield Bash
7.) Unhindering Shield (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/shield-mastery-feats/unhindering-shield-shield-mastery/)
9.) Greater Mercy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-mercy/) or Two Weapon Fighting
11.) Shield Slam
13.) Ultimate Mercy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy/) or Shield Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat/)
15.) Flexible (Greater Mercy?)
17.) Flexible (Ultimate Mercy?)


However, I will put in my 2cp RE: Sword and Board Paladins as I usually do; I do not think Paladins are a class particularly well suited to Sword and Board combat due to the limitations of their class features (primarily, Lay on Hands requiring a free hand to heal yourself as a Swift action). While it fits one of the classic images of a Paladin, Paladins do not get Bonus Feats, and so find it difficult to follow Feat intensive build paths like Sword and Board combat in the first place, so they are incentivized to either follow very simple builds (a big 2H weapon like a Greatsword only requires one Feat, Power Attack, to truly make the most of) or perhaps counter-intuitively, something like archery, because Smite is AMAZING if you can get a bunch of attacks.

As you can see in the above build, it would be level 9 at the absolute earliest before you could both Sword and Board (as opposed to just holding a shield for the extra AC and using the sword)and still use all your class features.

And if you were going to just be using the shield for the AC anyway, you're better off nabbing a Greatsword (or similar big beefy weapon) and the aforementioned Unhindering Shield Feat, which would let you hold the buckler for a +1 AC and still fight normally, plus use Lay on Hands on yourself.

Fighters, and especially Rangers and Slayers make ridiculously good Sword and Board combatants; in their hands it is actually the superior Two-Weapon Fighting style (over the "classics" like dual daggers, etc.), but Paladins find it hard to make use of simply because so many factors combine to make it unappealing.

That build would eg. look something like this:


1.) Fey Foundling
Human Bonus: Power Attack
3.) Shield Focus
5.) Flexible (Greater Mercy?)
7.) Unhindering Shield
9.) Flexible (Cornugon Smash (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat/)? Lunge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat/)? Furious Focus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat/)?)
11.) Flexible (Hurtful (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hurtful-combat/)?)
13.) Flexible (Ultimate Mercy?)
15.) Flexible
17.) Flexible

As you can see, your build is online by level 7 (really, by level 1) and the world is your oyster from there. Instead of every single one of your Feats up to 17, aside maybe a couple of flex slots, being tied up in achieving basic competence at the Sword and Board style, you now have a wealth of choice in what you want to do, while being similarly defensive.

[Razgriez]

Paladins overall are very, very solid in PF.

I'd say your ability scores are all over the place and could benefit from more focus (unless they're rolled and you're stuck with that). Also, why is your longbow magical when your main melee weapon isn't?

Using a shield is solid, but this particular shield line of feats isn't very good (also noting that style feats take a swift to activate, and so does Smite Evil). Fey Foundling is a good feat on a paladin; other feats to consider are Lunge, Blind-Fight, Flickering Steps, and of course Power Attack. HTH!
I should add that this is a campaign already in progress. So feats which must be selected at character creation/level 1 are probably not possible with retrain.

Ability score was Point-buy, and because I joined the group it was at the last minute and was rushing to build a character while the first session had already started. The Dexterity was for the bonus point of AC with Full Plate and when making ranged attacks. Intelligence for skill points. Charisma started with 14, +1 at level 4.

The bow was a recent purchase because party is starting to deal with flying creatures, and had just lost a battle to one with DR, so had to buy something to replace the starting sling.


Fey Foundling is almost a must-pick for Paladins at 1st level.

If you want to be a sword and board man as a Paladin, I'll disagree with Kurald; I think Upsetting Shield Style is pretty legit for one simple reason: it lets you take Unhindering Shield and use a buckler, but still bash, so you can still use Lay on Hands to heal yourself while using a shield.

A sample build path:

1.) Fey Foundling (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling/)
Human Bonus: Shield Focus
3.) Upsetting Shield Style
5.) Improved Shield Bash
7.) Unhindering Shield (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/shield-mastery-feats/unhindering-shield-shield-mastery/)
9.) Greater Mercy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-mercy/) or Two Weapon Fighting
11.) Shield Slam
13.) Ultimate Mercy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/ultimate-mercy/) or Shield Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat/)
15.) Flexible (Greater Mercy?)
17.) Flexible (Ultimate Mercy?)



There is actually a second Paladin in the party that has Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy now, and picked several archetypes that improve healing. I'm considering getting selecting the "Injured" Mercy (Fast Healing/3) and Channeled Revive (3 uses of Channel Energy/6 uses of Lay on Hands). Note: GM made a ruling also that he would not let Greater Mercy feat and "Injured" Mercy be combined (he decided that while the mercy isn't removing a status effect, its still a mercy being used, so no bonus 1d6 from Greater Mercy) The Dexterity 13-15 for Upsetting Shield is the one issue stopping me from switching to that build.




That build would eg. look something like this:


1.) Fey Foundling
Human Bonus: Power Attack
3.) Shield Focus
5.) Flexible (Greater Mercy?)
7.) Unhindering Shield
9.) Flexible (Cornugon Smash (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat/)? Lunge (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat/)? Furious Focus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat/)?)
11.) Flexible (Hurtful (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hurtful-combat/)?)
13.) Flexible (Ultimate Mercy?)
15.) Flexible
17.) Flexible

As you can see, your build is online by level 7 (really, by level 1) and the world is your oyster from there. Instead of every single one of your Feats up to 17, aside maybe a couple of flex slots, being tied up in achieving basic competence at the Sword and Board style, you now have a wealth of choice in what you want to do, while being similarly defensive.

Something similar was suggested by someone in my group, though he cautioned that because of the amount of undead in this campaign (Spoiler: its Mummy's Mask adventure path), going for an Intimidate build may not be as useful.

[Seward]

Ok, evaluation of your choices.

Attributes - aren't terrible. You correctly identifies strength and charisma as most important, with enough dex to work with fullplate and decent con. Unlike 3.5 you don't need wisdom for spells, so they're slightly less MAD but any tank has to be careful about tanking wisdom (will save) and if you want any role out of combat a 12 int isn't terrible, for the skill poiints. You could be slightly more combat effective by dumping wisdom and maybe 2 points of int, but the tradeoff isn't a big one, and your choices are ok. Paladins are MAD, and 16 str.12dx.14con/15cha is solid.

Equipment - use of a bow+light shield confused me briefly till I realized you do shield bash stuff and then it made more sense. Your gear seems a little light compared to WBL, I see about 5-6k spent on melee and ranged weapons (presuming your shield is enchanted for offense as well as defense), and 6k spent on armor/shield+enchantments and nothing spent on abilites, saving throws or anything else. You have about half the wealth a L7 character is expected to have (12kish instead of 23500). A typical L7 character might have similar gear, but would maybe have a couple 4k enhancement items (str2 and cha2 in your case would seem ideal) and a +2 vest of resistance or would maybe have just one attribute boost item and +1 vest resistance and spend the other 7k on utility items, adamantine weapon or maybe adding another +1 enchantment to a weapon.

Given your dex, you have probably spent all you ever want to spend on your bow. A magical strength bow is a good backup weapon for any fullbab martial, but you need to do enough melee damage to keep enemies focused on your relatively high AC, not have them decide you are ineffectual and move on to your party members. Depending on your feat choices you may upgrade your shield, or one of your melee weapons (probably the scimitar, as you want your shield up, not on your back in close combat).

Again, your choices aren't bad, they are a foundation for better things, but you'll need level appropriate wealth to not start falling behind the monsters unless the GM also scales down the typical threat in recognition of your relatively poor gear compared to the game engine's expectations.

Feats

Unfortunately with your dex, shield mastery is out (it requires TWF, which requires 15 dex), so doing serious offense with your shield that is more powerful than just using it as a bashing full attack weapon probably isn't in the cards unless you also invest statbumps and wealth into catching that up.

In a related note, most advance shield techniques require fighter levels or TWF or both. Unbalancing shield techniques require more dex than you have, but level bump to dex or a 4k dex item at least gives you a way to do those, TWF is probably too big an investment. That said, Shield Mastery is kinda awesome and would be my usual go-to advice for a shield basher. It lets you use your DEFENSIVE bonus on your shield as OFFENSIVE attack/damage bonus. And eliminates TWF penalties so you can also attack with another melee weapon, making your full attack a serious threat So lets spend a moment there.

Furthermore TWF on a Pathfinder paladin has synergy with smite, as every attack benefits from your smite use (which is why my L13-15 advice to go for improved TWF as the main tree stands, although I understand the appeal of the upsetting shield tree instead)

The path is:
L7 Shield Slam
L8 statbump to dex and purchase of +2 gloves of dexterity (or other +2 dex item) before level 9
L9 Two weapon Fighting (and an immediate if moderate increase in your full attack damage)
L10 buy as high a shield enhancement bonus as you can afford, helping your defense.
L11 Shield Mastery with a significant bump to your overall offense in full attack, keeping you relevant.
optional
L12 Upgrade that +2 gloves to +4 gloves, and swap plate for mithril fullplate to get benefit of your boosted dex
L12 statbump to charisma - you don't want an odd number there.
L13 improved TWF (greater twf is probably not worth the item+feat investment but improved usually is)
Note that getting dex debuffed, enlarge spell or losing your gloves might shut down several feats so you have to be a bit cautious with item-dependent feat chains.

If it was me, and I could be reasonably sure about getting the required dex items and enchantments on my shield on schedule this is what I'd do. Your other party member went the "healer" route, so you need to step up and provide more frontline tanking which needs both boosting offense and defense, which this approach does. Doubly so since you took the step-up feat, which is intended to keep an enemy from 5' stepping out of your full attack range - for that feat to be worthwhile you need a dangerous full attack sequence.

After L11 the alternate route is to go down the upsetting shield path while boosting your armor defense (and don't forget your vest of resistance and charisma item and strength item as you get wealth, you will need those too) Your dex will now be high enough for some of those feats. But get shield mastery first if you boost your dex to 15. Take care of your basics before getting fancy. Shield Slam provides a decent "push enemy away from your squishy" and a very reliable "push allied squishy who is cooperating and not resisting away from an enemy without provoking AOO, so this will cover most of what the advanced upsetting shield path does until you get around to it.

Either shield mastery approach is solid (improved twf path or upsetting shield path) but at minimum you have to be sure your GM will let you find or purchase gloves of dex+2 before level 9. If you can't trust that the GM will do that (or if you are unsure you can get your shield enchanted higher than +1 before level 11) then you might want to find a different path.

Other paths ===============

Of the various other shield feats you do qualify for which help you defend your party, and are outside the two you mentioned from the upsetting shield style, here's what they do.

Saving Shield - immediate action give an ally +2 shield bonus to AC - good action economy, limited benefit
Shield Focus - like Dodge, a +1 AC feat that lets you take other feats. Already purchased in your build
..Covering Defense - give cover bonus at the cost of you using total defense. The use of this feat is to go to a squishy teammate who can't even reliably survive eating an AOO to get away from an enemy, using up your own attack action and instead give them the cover they need to cast a spell safely or leave the area safely, while leaving you in full attack range of the enemy but at least with full defense dodge bonus running

Covering defense is a much more useful party defense tool than Saving Shield (+2 ac won't save you against a real melee threat if you are squishy) but is a real sacrifice of action economy. A dumb enemy will then throw his attacks on you, the smarter will ignore you to go after the squishy that just ran off using your cover, but still, better than them dying. Also takes 2 feats (shield focus first) to protect your party in that situation. If your party is tactically good at positioning, that's 2 feats that will mostly only give you a +1 AC. If they are the kind that get in trouble a lot though, this could be a solid 2-feat chain for you.

compare this to Shield Slam - which takes only 1 feat investment and will push allied party members out of the way reliably, if not as far as they could move on their own. Shield slam is strictly better unless you can't push them all the way out of enemy reach. The party member can still move away on his turn, but it also works if they don't have an action coming up or need to do a full attack action to help the party next turn.

Missile Shield is useless, only slightly better than Deflect Arrows. Mounted Shield is intended for the same folks who want mounted combat - cavalry with mounts much more vulnerable than them, which isn't a description of most paladin mounts on a full paladin build, even if you use one. Not recommended.

Unhindering Shield isn't necessary if you shieldbash with a light shield. You still can use the shield hand for anything but attacking, which includes Lay on Hand. Also how does this let you shieldbash with a buckler? Nothing in the feat description says that. It also doesn't preclude the need for improved shield bash and shield slam to get to shield master.



Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
.....
A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Lay on Hands is SU, so no spell components or concentration. Light shield hand can even hold a weapon, you just can't attack with it. If you can grip a weapon or torch or whatever, you can touch yourself or an ally instead, if not using it to grip anything else. (eg, you grip your own other wrist, or that of an ally, briefly)

So basically...the other shield paths are kinda crap, compared to getting shield mastery + one of improved TWF or upsetting shield tree. If you aren't worried about your full attack offense, you could just get the dex gloves+stat bump dex at L8 and get the upsetting shield tree first. But I do think you have a full attack damage problem at the moment (masterwork melee weapons+only 2 attacks+16 strength just isn't enough for CR10+ opposition you'll be facing soon even if you are under benefit of party buffs like haste+prayer or similar)

[Rynjin]

Unhindering Shield isn't necessary if you shieldbash with a light shield. You still can use the shield hand for anything but attacking, which includes Lay on Hand. Also how does this let you shieldbash with a buckler? Nothing in the feat description says that. It also doesn't preclude the need for improved shield bash and shield slam to get to shield master.

Upsetting Shield Style lets you buckler bash.



Lay on Hands is SU, so no spell components or concentration. Light shield hand can even hold a weapon, you just can't attack with it. If you can grip a weapon or torch or whatever, you can touch yourself or an ally instead, if not using it to grip anything else. (eg, you grip your own other wrist, or that of an ally, briefly)

No. Your hand is occupied by the light shield. It does not count as a free hand in any sense of the word. This is the case by RAW, and doubly the case by the "invisible hands of effort" FAQ that precludes TWFing with a 2H weapon and a "non-handed" weapon like armor spikes.

Even a buckler does not count as a free hand by default, much less a light shield. Being able to manipulate objects while using one is not the same thing as having a free hand. I'm also not sure where you got that text anyway, but that part doesn't really matter.

[Seward]

The first quote was from the lay on hands description, paladin pfsrd, last sentence of first paragraph, source = core rulebook.

The second quote was from the light shield definition in the d20srd but there doesn't seem to be a similar paragraph explaining the difference between light and heavy shields in d20 - just text about one being a light weapon for bashing, the other being a heavy weapon. So perhaps they eliminated the gripping hand in pathfinder? Although I played it for about 5 years and didn't encounter anything different in play from 3.5 on that front.

At minimum if you can still grip objects in the light shield hand you can shift your weapon to your light shield hand as free action, do lay on hands with your 100% free and, then take the weapon back with your hand as another free action (or leave it in the shield hand, and shift it back as a free action next turn). Hell, you can do spellcasting too that way. It is the primary reason to use either a buckler or a light shield for a spellcaster over a heavy shield.

Really, it isn't a problem. It isn't any different from going from a 2h weapon to holding it in one hand to cast a spell, then readying it again for an AOO. Both going from 2h to "holding a 2h weapon in one hand" and "switching back to a 2h grip are also free actions. If you allow one, you allow the other.

Alternately you can take quickdraw, letting you continue to use the quickdraw light shield but letting you shift it back and forth as a free action between readied and unreadied as a free action.

In 3.5 this was supported by FAQ entries. I'm not up on the pathfinder faqs, did they change how gripping weapons worked?

[Rynjin]

You can switch weapon hands as a free action, but not while holding a shield. At least, that's how I've always read it; you can't use weapons after all.

"Free hand" is nebulous, but it's usually taken to mean "if that hand has 'done something' this round, it doesn't count as a free hand". In a light shield's case, it has done something: provided an AC bonus.

The argument could maybe be made that you could forego the AC bonus for it to count as a free hand, but I don't think you can, since the buckler has specific language that lets it do that for two purposes (wielding a weapon, and casting spells) but the light shield does not.

[Seward]

Guess it is up to the GM.

Everybody I played with in 8 years of 3.0/3.5 and 5 years of pathfinder 1.0 viewed it exactly the opposite way. I guess you had the opposite experience. What matters is what his GM thinks.

For what it is worth, here is the explicit 3.5 faq ruling on this exact topic



The duskblade’s armored mage class feature (PH2 20)
allows you to cast spells while wearing a shield with no
arcane spell failure. If the duskblade has a sword in one
hand and a shield in the other, can they still cast spells? If
not, why carry a shield?
You need a free hand to cast a spell with a somatic
component, and to cast a spell with a material or focus
component, you need that component at hand (which usually
means you need a free hand to manipulate it). The buckler and
light shield both allow you to use your shield hand for such
activities.
A duskblade using a heavy shield and holding a weapon or
other object in his other hand can only cast spells that don’t
include the components listed above, despite the fact that he
ignores the arcane spell failure chance for the heavy shield.


This was the final ruling on the topic. (an earlier ruling suggested you had to switch hands as described above and said the rules don't say what kind of an action it was, suggesting a move action. Another ruling explicitly stated switching hands with weapons was a free action, in context of 2 handed weapon use. This final ruling explicitly allowed spellcasting with either a buckler or a light shield for somatic and material components, at least if you were proficient in the shield and didn't suffer arcane failure (as both clerics and duskblades are).

Even with the earlier ruling, lay on hands isn't spellcasting, and even the first ruling explicitly let you hold a weapon in that hand and do everything else normally except attack with that weapon.

But of course Pathfinder isn't 3.5, and not all GMs accept 3.5 faq rulings (in either system). YMMV, but basically the primary reason to take a light shield over a buckler was to bash with it, and the primary reason to take a light shield over a heavy shield was to do stuff with the other hand. Without either advantage it is kind of pointless to have light shields at all, as a buckler is strictly superior if you can bash with it (not even needing a free action to "ready" and allowing you to attack at -1 with a weapon in that hand)

[Kurald Galain]

You can switch weapon hands as a free action, but not while holding a shield. At least, that's how I've always read it; you can't use weapons after all.

I agree that players can't simultaneously claim the benefit for doing "X" and for doing "not X". The most common example is probably players who want to count as blinded (closing their eyes) whenever it's convenient while at the same time not taking any penalties for doing so; but yeah, having a hand simultaneously "free" and "not free" strikes me as sophistry.

[Seward]

I agree that players can't simultaneously claim the benefit for doing "X" and for doing "not X". The most common example is probably players who want to count as blinded (closing their eyes) whenever it's convenient while at the same time not taking any penalties for doing so; but yeah, having a hand simultaneously "free" and "not free" strikes me as sophistry.


This problem is fairly easy to manage.

With blindness, they have to be blind while doing the thing. So if you want to shoot a target with 50% miss chance instead of popping mirror images you close your eyes during the full attack and open them after (both free actions). You will suffer all blindness penalties if somebody hits you with a readied action or aoo during that time. There is no functional way to avoid a gaze attack like that without being blind the whole round.

Something like Glitterdust or Pyrotechnics, you'd need a readied action to shut your eyes when your buddy was spellcasting, and the caster itself should be able to shut her eyes before casting and open after, again with all the risks of readied attacks etc hitting you while vulnerable.

In the case of using your shield hand for something, a perfectly reasonable ruling is to not allow the shield bonus while that action is happening (as indeed, bucklers do not by default while attacking with a weapon in that hand, you need a feat for that, and default shield bash is another strong precedent). So with this approach, spellcasting as described in the duskblade entry or laying on hands or drinking a potion or whatever would take your shield bonus, either during the action or for the entire turn, depending on the GM attitude. Again though, the 3.5 faq was a bit more forgiving on this topic, using the ring of force-field as a precedent.



Does the shield of force created by the ring of force
shield (DMG 232) require a free hand to use, or can I use it
when wielding two weapons or a two-handed weapon?
The item is silent on the issue, so the Sage believes it
appropriate to assume that the ring’s shield functions just like a
normal heavy shield (except for the lack of armor check
penalty or arcane spell failure chance). Thus, it requires a free
hand to gain the shield’s benefit.
Of course, a character wielding a weapon in that hand
could activate the ring after making his attacks for the round
(thus gaining its benefit while enemies attack) and deactivate it
at the start of his next turn (allowing attacks with that hand).
While you wouldn’t be able to use the shield hand to make
attacks of opportunity while the shield was active, you’d
otherwise be nearly as effectively protected as if the shield
were active continuously.




Basically that item could be enabled, disabled as a free action. It is comparable to a quickdraw shield+quickdraw with action economy, so it isn't precisely the same as a buckler or light shield if you assume any use of that hand disables the shield for the entire round.

Given that the paladin in question won't be attacking the same round he lays on hands, he might be willing to accept the consequence of losing shield bonus to do an emergency heal, rather than having to drop his weapon. That kind of tradeoff is more reasonable than saying "you can't touch somebody with your shield hand that can grip objects using a SU ability that takes no somatic components nor concentration".

One reason we're having this discussion is the actual paladin in question doesn't have the feats to cram in an extra feat, plus he's invested his limited wealth by level into a magic quickdraw light shield. So trying to find an answer where he can use his class abilities without regearing or retraining something like step-up into another feat (quickdraw or worse the two+feat unhindered buckler+whatever other feat lets you bash with it + selling shield + buying buckler)

[Kurald Galain]

you close your eyes during the full attack and open them after

That is precisely the kind of loophole abuse that gives you all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of being blind (because realistically speaking, nobody is going to attack you during your own attack). And yes, I would rule against that.

[Seward]

That is precisely the kind of loophole abuse that gives you all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of being blind (because realistically speaking, nobody is going to attack you during your own attack). And yes, I would rule against that.

It gives you a rather large penalty on your attack rolls, especially at range (where blindfight doesn't help). It also takes all targeted spells (such as magic missile) off the table.

And seriously, if shutting and opening your eyes isn't a free action, what is? It's less complex than talking, or shifting a 2h weapon out of ready to one hand, then back to ready.

I'm pretty skeptical of limiting things that are obviously free actions.

This kind of thing at its worst leads to rulings where quickdrawing weapons to do a full attack throw routine or simply drawing ammo out of a quiver is restricted at higher levels when archers get 6-7 attacks, but even in a situation like yours where you are doing it for what you see as game balance reasons it's immersion breaking.

All defenses have counters. Sometimes they'll want to strip off images for a later person, the way a baseball player will sometimes bunt to get on base and let a stronger hitter come to the plate. Sometimes they'll swing for the fences, accepting a higher chance of no effect to make sure the one guy who hits hard in the party has a chance of succeeding.

To pick an example of an amazingly effective but extremely cheap, available on first-adventure option to any PC except a monk, who needs to scrape up 21gp somehow...

A 25gp scroll of obscuring mist or a 20gp smokestick +1gp tindertwig can ruin a lance charge, a shock trooper charge, all precision attacks (sneak attack et all), any targeted spell effect, gaze attacks, reach aoo's from critters more than 5' away and can do it regardless of any sensory ability of the opposition except blindsight, which is very very rare. The smokestick requires careful placement, the obscuring mist just works. All you need is that effect and a 5' square between you and the other guy, sneak attack or similar precision attacks are spoiled even if adjacent or on the edge of the fog (barring unchained rogue class ability or similar pf feats that never existed in 3.5). Likewise reach AOOs can still be spoiled even if adjacent you use a withdraw action to get out of that one threatened square, using fog to cover the rest of their reach.

It ALSO lets you ride a mount from that enviable concealment position, cast a spell or full attack with ranged weapon from outside that cover and ride back INTO the cover. The only counter is to enter the fog and melee, remove the fog somehow (wind, or dispel magic if not magical, or an area fire effect on obscuring mist only, not higher level similar spells), use an area effect big enough to cover likely positions in the fog or, as with the mirror image situation, ready an action for when they exit the fog to do something and thus make themselves vulnerable. It's like fighting a dread wraith except without needing incorporeality or spring attack.

The mount trick works even better if you have a corner of a building or similar to work with, giving both full cover and concealment.

If you want to talk about unbalancing actions, closing your eyes just to choose which penalty to take on a mirror image is nothing compared to the "you can cast a metamagic spont spell or full attack from the center point of your movement while mounted" and the only penalties are a dc10 (not 10+ spell level just 10) concentration check IF the mount double moves, none on single move, and a -4 attack penalty IF the mount double moves, no penalty if it single moves. To get a standard action, you need a 3 feat chain unless you fly (dodge/mobility and one of shot on the run or spring attack) and one feat if you fly (flyby) but if you do ranged effects, and you have a mount (or even anybody who can carry or otherwise move you around, eg on a tenser disk or with tk), a readied action can let you do any std action at any point in the mount movement. Mounts are great. So are scrolls of obscuring mist.

[Kurald Galain]

It gives you a rather large penalty on your attack rolls, especially at range (where blindfight doesn't help). It also takes all targeted spells (such as magic missile) off the table.
Sure, but in melee it lets you negate Mirror Image and related buffs at no cost. And they don't need to "strip images for a later person" if everybody else uses the same trick.

And unlike the situations you mention, this one comes up quite a lot. "Lol, I can ignore a defense by closing my eyes exactly when it benefits me and exactly not when it hinders me" is loophole abuse. The GM doesn't have to give you all the benefits of "closed eyes" and of "not-closed eyes" at the same time.


If you want to talk about unbalancing actions,
Well, my point isn't that the GM should arbitrarily limit free actions; my point is that the GM shouldn't give you the benefits of "X" and "not-X" at the same time.

[Seward]

Honestly in my play, mount shenanigans and fog abuse came up a lot more than mirror-image-blind attacks.

In lower levels they didn't have all that many images, in higher levels somebody would waste his turn with an iterative attack and strip them off (or use a summons or something do do it, or an area spell or whatever).

It was a niche thing, when the party had no actions free except the beefy martial type and needed to shut down that freaking caster before he nuked the party. It was more often done with archers than melees, even though melees were more likely to be able to mitigate the miss chance. The other place I'd see it a lot was move+grapple attempts, as once you got your hands on the real image you were good to go, although like being blind, it does leave you vulnerable. Blind+grappling isn't much worse than just grappling defensively.

Sometimes it worked well, sometimes it proved a poor choice beyond stripping images. Given that a Vrock encounter will start with every single one mirror imaged unless freshly summoned (mirror image is at-will there is no reason they would ever not have it) you just don't always have the actions always to do it the slow way. With other encounter types than "at will spell like" mirror images are pretty rare because of that minute duration awkwardness and justifying how they knew to have it up (barring beguilers+improved mirror image spell, which is an immediate action, or higher level casters who got their first action and quickened it, still usually fairly unusual encounters even in higher levels)

Also though, if the folks I played with got the kind of GM pushback you're giving, they'd shrug, and either suck up being blind the entire round to get the shot off, or 5' step behind a visual barrier (like that fog cloud again, 1001 uses if you have it on the battlefield) to be blind beyond 5' and do it. At worst you'd tie up two actions (one to activate a smokestick or fog effect in front of the shooter/hitter, then the other to take that blind full attack, although in a melee case he'd need to be enlarged or have a reach weapon or something). A melee with blindfight would just shut his eyes and be blind for a round. A barbarian with uncanny dodge also would have no fear of being blind, as he's still protected even vs ranged attacks).

Table variation happens, and it doesn't tend to stop effective actions. If you need to do it you accept the cost the GM imposes and move on. If you want it to be a common strategy you negotiate with GM away from the table to find an acceptable balance. Mirror image is way overpowered for its level if you always engage it on its level (compare to entropic shield (L1), blur (L2), displacement or blink (L3) which are all level appropriate).

You won't stop the tactic by banning the shut eyes tactic. You'll only increase the cost to do so. If your players are ok with the cost you impose, it's all good. If not, at least try to have those discussion away from the table till you find something you can all live with. I think we all can agree rules arguments at the table are no fun for anybody.

[Rynjin]

That is precisely the kind of loophole abuse that gives you all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of being blind (because realistically speaking, nobody is going to attack you during your own attack). And yes, I would rule against that.

I attack players during their own attacks all the time. There's a lot of things that can cause that.

And the "close eyes to attack" thing is 100% a legit tactic. It's not like it completely invalidates Mirror Image, it just lowers the miss chance from "absurd and unreasonable" to "only" 50%.

[Razgriez]

Bringing this back to the subject at hand, the GM has already ruled that use the shield hand when using a Light Shield is allowed for easy tasks (using Lay on Hands, holding onto a Holy Symbol).


The Shield Slam idea will not work, it requires TWF before I can get Shield Slam, and I have no reasonable means to get the feats at this time with this character. It would require a brand new character to avoid waiting 3-6 more levels.


So, the general ideas I have received so far are: Reach/Two-hander build and/or combat reflexes, or Upsetting Shield style. (or some combo of all). Possibly these may ultimately be the choice I should go with

If I choose to stick with the Sword and Board style I have now, can I rescue it by either A. Focusing on Shield Bashing as the primary offense, or B. focus on the scimitar instead?

[Seward]

The Shield Slam idea will not work, it requires TWF before I can get Shield Slam, and I have no reasonable means to get the feats at this time with this character. It would require a brand new character to avoid waiting 3-6 more levels.



Crap, missed that prereq. Yes, barring retraining your L4 statbump and getting gloves of dex before level 7 you can't put together that feat chain in the right order.

Lets see what else might help. Ok looking at upsetting shield....

You have to sell your shield and get a buckler. Not too expensive yet, you've only invested about 1.2k in that shield. Doing that lets you use improved shield bash but doesn't really help your situation (L7 used for upsetting shield, maybe L9 unhindered which takes away all the buckler penalties, and you still are doing only an attack with a scimitar or only an attack with the buckler, with the only improvement being ability to 2h your scimitar if you want.

I think if that's your goal Quickdraw gets you there faster and doesn't require rearranging equipment. That lets you switch to 2h as needed, or fight sword/board+hand free for lay on hands as needed with no action cost to change modes (basically the same as a ring of force field, except it can be enchanted much higher than a mere +2 for 8500gp).

============
I actually did a tank once that used a scimitar but she was a mutt, not a single classed paladin and was dex focused so a lot of her stuff doesn't apply. But there is a little to talk about on the scimitar front.

If you fight with it 2h, power attack is suddenly a lot better. So quickdraw7 power attack 9 improved crit 11 isn't terrible. If you could retrain shield bash into one of those three you'd probably benefit, as scimitar is a better single weapon tool than a light shield bash (it is a solid 1h weapon whose wide crit range synergizes with paladin smite).

Scimitar is the favored weapon of Sarenrae and as such, she has a couple handy things if you are her Paladin and/or your GM lets you use some of her flavor for your deity. There is a religious trait "blade of mercy" that lets you attack with a scimitar for nonlethal damage with no penalty and get +1 damage whenever you do that (take extra traits, or retrain a trait if that is allowed). Pick a second helpful trait - quite a few help with AC or saves, and magical knack helps with caster level if you don't have it already.

(there is also a divine fighting feat that does this but it has stupidly high prereqs. Use the traits)

There are some critical focus feats that apply but I kinda hate that chain. Improved crit is just better, effects that only fire if you confirm a crit, with a prereq that gives you nothing for your L9 feat but +4 to confirm a crit just isnt' very good. Likewise swordplay tree would go "weapon focus at 7, imp crit at 9, swordplay at 11 giving you a crit range of 14-20 instead of 15-20 which you get with just taking imp crit (and getting quickdraw and power attack first) Focused attack is equally stupid - just take your full attack, not widen your crit range slightly with one attack.

=====
Shield bash stuff...

Your Stumbling Bash/Toppling bash idea is logical as you've invested 2 feats already in this chain. The problem is the benefits are marginal for offense, although decent from a tanking/control perspective. -2 to hit is effectively +2 to AC for you and everybody else, and a swift action trip attempt with no counter trip is nice but you'll want to beef up your strength item by L11 and maybe get a size boost somewhere to reliably stick a trip on any but the easier enemies.

If you go this route, I'd take stumbling bash as L7 feat, improved crit (scimitar) as L9 feat (to boost your offense without complex feat chains, it gives you the most bang for the buck as a smiting sword+board in this department for a single feat) then Toppling Bash at 11 and maybe power attack at 13.

Power attack would be used either 1h vs dangerous enemies with low AC, or 2h vs lower ac enemies you don't respect enough to bother with a shield, swapping it out as you move up to engage to do more damage. The reason to take at 13 not at 9 is that improved crit gives you damage without compromising your to-hit, which you need in order to stick your stumbling bash attack and get that -2 on their attacks.
====

Moving on to offensive paladin feats (again as noted your other paladin is covering the healadin stuff).

Extra smite isn't terrible. Paladins never get enough smites.

You are only a statbump away from unsanctioned knowledge, but that bump should go into charisma bringing it to 16, not giving you yet another odd-attribute. Maybe pick it up at L13 with a statbump to int if you want wider spell selection. There is some good stuff in the bard and cleric list but be mindful of your limited slots and caster level.

What is your paladin bond or archetype? Do you have a steed or what?

=====================


So in conclusion. If you want to stick with your existing feat investments your original idea was decent, just mix in improved crit at 9 and power attack at 13.

Most other options that are decent require either a rebuild, or at least retraining your entire shield bash feat chain to something else, which might be jarring and a tough sell to the GM.

If your deity is Sarenenrae consider extra traits instead. Or extra smite maybe instead of one of the martial feats, but I think you could do with a couple straight up damage feats, using your shield bash for battlefield control and your scimitar to maximize effects when you are smiting for killing effect, critfishing to double your smite damage.

On statbumps, cha to 16 at level 8 has got to be your next choice, unless you find an amazing feat chain I missed to change that. It's been a while since I played 1e and a lot got published before they changed editions after I left.

Also as a general note, your party needs more wealth for the challenges it is facing, if everybody is geared like you are now. You are a few levels behind on Weath by Level and entering levels where that is really going to matter, particularly for martial characters (primary casters can usually go a few more levels before stingy WBL starts to seriously crimp their style).

Past level 13? You could actually afford +4 gloves by L12 and use your L13 feat on twf, L15 on shield slam and L17 on shield mastery if you want to go down that road, instead of picking up power attack. But honestly you'll know a lot better by L12 if your approach is working and if the campaign will really continue that long and probably have a new plan.

[Razgriez]

Character is a Paladin of Sarenrae. I will caution as my own group has cautioned me, that this adventure path's primary opponents may not make feats like Sarenrae's Mercy as effective as usual due to issues like subduel damage immunity (undead/constructs).

I selected the Weapon Divine Bond

[Seward]

Ok, then yeah, for campaign reasons extra traits is going to be an inferior choice to improved crit in the L9 slot. You need a damage boost, your deity favors a high crit range weapon. Barring your GM handing you a keen weapon of course. (in which case go with power attack at L9 and think hard about statbump dex at 12, gloves dex+2 before 13, TWF at 13 to get into the damage-per-round shield bash feats that lead you into shield mastery by end of your campaign)

Weapon divine bond is a good choice. You really do need that weapon enchanted though, not doing so makes you waste some of your divine bond bonuses on just the +1 (and does nothing but give you +1 damage and magic dr penetration right now). See if you can do it before L8, giving you the option to declare "holy", as well as the various other +1 options in whatever stack is helpful at the moment. Until you get improved crit "keen" will be a reasonably strong choice, and obviously merciful when that's helpful, or flaming vs swarms or cold monsters etc.

Thankfully undead and constructs aren't immune to crits in Pathfinder1e. At some point getting a +1 adamantine scimitar is probably a good idea. Such weapons are incredibly hard to sunder or damage with things like Baubau Slime, and losing your divine bond for a month due to a broken weapon when the spirit is summoned is a bummer. Also if constructs are a main-path enemy, adamantine is something every martial in your party is going to want.

[Razgriez]

Alright, so with some advice from a player in my group, I decided to rebuild character for Two-hander Reach defense w/ Buckler (Upsetting and Unhindering Shield).

The new Feat list:
Level 1 Step Up -> Improved Shield bash
Bonus: Shield Focus
Level 3: Extra LoH -> Upsetting Shield Style
Level 5: Improved Shield bash -> Combat Reflexes
Level 7: Unhindering Shield


So, here is the next question and challenge to solve. My character has 3981 Gold, and enough silver and copper for tavern and ale fees, and obviously some equipment that can be sold now.

So, suggestions on what Two-Handed reach weapon, buckler, magic items to buy? Looking at the bardiche for its 1d10 (2d8 when Enlarge person buff is active, which is often in our group), 19-20 Critical.

EDIT: Well, apparently, there was one part to this brilliant plan none of us considered: Enlarge Person reduces Dexterity by 2. So, guess I'm back to choosing A. Stumbling Bash (Target suffers -2 to AC after Shield Bash) and Toppling Bash (Free Trip attempt with Shield Bash), B. Just go with a standard Two-Hander with Reach build.

[Rynjin]

I would suggest taking Power Attack by 9, by the by. Potentially take it over Combat Reflexes and save the latter until 9, since making sure each individual hit matters is probably more important than making sure you sometimes get additional hits.

As for Reach weapon? I'm partial to the Ranseur, but that's mostly for aesthetics. The Bardiche is probably the mathematically best Martial Reach weapon.

[Seward]

EDIT: Well, apparently, there was one part to this brilliant plan none of us considered: Enlarge Person reduces Dexterity by 2.

And that is why 14 (or lower) dex high strength monks take improved grapple as their L1 bonus feat, rather than using a non-monk-feat for that purpose (improved grapple takes 13 dex, but grapplers want to be big)


I stick with my last post's advice if you don't want a total character rebuild. If you go for a rebuild, the options are many but 12 dex is low for a reach-combat reflexes build too, it doesn't get much out of combat reflexes, almost nothing when enlarged.

[Razgriez]

So I worked with a player and the GM in my group and we found an answer: Shield Brace, which lets you use Polearms and Spears Two-Handed while also using a shield. While it does have the restriction that I can only attack with one or the other as part of a turn, it does keep with most of what I built already, and there's several path options from here.

[Seward]

Count me as one that thinks you are on the right path.

If it was me, I'd want choices that let me work with what you have, while giving what you want. The bash is still useful if you are in close quarters, unable to use the reach weapon that round, but you can still sword-and-board with reach.

With a 2h build main attack, you'll want power attack soonish, in with whatever else you're wanting to do.