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SilverClawShift
2007-11-24, 08:22 PM
"Oh jesus no not another thread about ploymorph balance no no no no no no no no no NO"

Hear me out, please, because I haven't seen this suggested anywhere, and as an off-the-cuff concept, I'd like to know what people think about it. There's no need for hostilities, or for this thread to turn into an angry back and forth, come on, let's be civilized.

******************************

Polymorph is a very broken spell. Arguably, the main source of the brokeness is the sheer VASTNESS of the spell. Everytime WOTC releases a new book, a new list of monsters are tacked onto what the spell does. Everytime a caster memorizes the spell, every option on that list gets tucked into their mind and waits for the opportunity to present itself.
Wicked.

It also sounds more like a 9th level spell. Tack on getting a full nights worth of hitpoints back in the process, and you're sitting pretty.

******************************

Spellcasters (even wizards) only know so many spells. Sorcerers know very few, other classes know more. Wizards know 2 per level, and they can learn any others (but they need to FIND it, take the TIME to scribe it, and spend the GOLD it costs to fully research it, which isn't a small task when you're talking about learning hundereds of spells that take half a week to learn each).

Knowing more spells becomes a very important facet of any class. What spells you pick inherently, or search for, or otherwise find a way to gain access to defines who you are and what you can do, at least from a mechanical persepective. You could easily argue that what spells a wizard knows is the most important choice they make in their career. It's a limiting factor, sometimes not a very strong one, but it is a limiting factor.

******************************

"Balance" is a tricky game. When you're dealing with ideas that aren't necessarily mechanically identical, deciding which one is too powerful or not powerful enough becomes hard. The fact that there's a full bookshelf worth of other sub-rules and addon-rules and exceptions-to-the-rules and unrules only amplifies that difficulty.
The best thing you can do is compare what you're balancing to other stuff near its level and ask "Would I pick this one or this one?". If the answer's obvious, they're out of balance. If it's a tough call, you're closer to the money.

There's basically no reason not to learn polymorph, if only for the sheer raw fact that it's a wildcard. It's like having a few thousand other spells written and memorized, provided you can thumb through and find the right creature for the right situation.

*****************************

So a lot of hemming and hawing, allow me to get to the actual point.

It seems like a very simple, very straightforward, and very rational way to bring a little more balance to the Polymorph spell would be to limit it to one, single, specific creature with no variations or exceptions to it whatsoever.

"Polymorph into a Troll" is now one spell, "Polymorph into a Giant Wasp" is another, and "Polymorph into a Dire Shark" is another still.
When a wizard (or any caster) learns a polymorph spell, they pick and learn ONE. If they know multiple (by picking it more than once or learning it elsewhere), then when they memorize their spells for the day, they have to select and state explicitly which polymorph spell they are preparing.

This instantly causes a few changes.

Polymorph is based off of the hit die of the target. You can't polymorph into something that has more hit die than you have caster levels. If you learn a polymorph spell with more hit die than you currently have (say you picked "Polymorph intoa Juvenile Black Dragon" which has 13 hit die), then you learned a more powerful spell, yes, but you have to wait to use it. If you pick something you can actually use right now (A troll with 6 hit die) then you've learned a valuable spell, but it'll mean having to learn that black dragon polymorph later on, taking up another valuable spell learned (or taking up raw value in gold and time).

When you memorize a polymorph spell (which only lasts for 1 minute per level remember), you're picking a specific thing to change into. If you memorize "Polymorph into a troll" and being a troll just isn't that handy right now, tough.
Now, being a troll is, of course, always gonna be a little handy. Stat boosts and regeneration, an increased size... not bad.
But compare it to other 4th level spells. Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV (a celestial lion versus a troll is a somewhat decent fight, and the lion is WITH you instead of BEING you), Charm Monster, Lesser Geas...
I readily admit i might be wrong, but it seems that it becomes a decent question when divied up like that. Now, yeah, better polymorphs learned will be a lot more useful for a 4th level spell slot than the lower ones... but then you were taking the time to learn a 4th level spell when you coulda snagged a 7th or 8th level spell.

It also means, instead of banning the spell outright, or creating a pre-set list, the DM can still allow you the totally flavorfull and awesome ability to change your form for 1 minute per level. If there's a real honest-to-god problem form, the dm can ban IT explicitly. Alternatively, they now have you pigeon-holed into a smaller spot... your uber-animal you picked to polymorph into might be cool, but the DM can EXPECT it and plan accordingly.

I also think it's a lot better fluffwise. Instead of "Watch out, the witch in the cabin knows polymorph", it becomes "Careful, it's been said the witch sometimes takes the form of a vicious hellhound".

*****************************

Oh well, enough rambling, and I apologize for bringing up a heated subject. But again, please, let's try to be civil, and I'd like to know what people think of this idea (or if it's been suggested before, what possible flaws it has) before I bring it up to my groups DM.

Lord Zentei
2007-11-24, 08:25 PM
You echo my own thoughts precisely.

I have indeed been planning to use this very concept -- each form must be researched separately.

The same would go for the Plane Shift spell, incidentally: Plane Shift to the Nine Hells is a different spell from Plane Shift to the Plane of Elemental Air, etc.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-24, 08:26 PM
That's good too. And of course, Shapechange would be under the same restriction, since it's basically Polymorph Deluxe.

Lord Zentei
2007-11-24, 08:28 PM
That's good too. And of course, Shapechange would be under the same restriction, since it's basically Polymorph Deluxe.

Indeed.

The only objection I have to the OP is that you beat me to posting the idea (I have been mulling on this solution for a while). :smallwink:

Gralamin
2007-11-24, 08:32 PM
While a good idea, I would rule it Slightly differently.
Level 4 Spell: Morph into X - As above
Level 5 Spell: Baleful Morph into Y - Y must be one of your Polymorph Forms.
Level 6 Spell: Master Polymorph - Prepare this spell, and you have a choice of which creature you become out of all your Morph forms. You gain 1 Morph Form.
Level 7 Spell: Master Baleful Polymorph - As Master Polymorph, but more like Baleful Polymorph.
Level 8 Spell: Grand Master Polymorph - As Master Polymorph, but you may change between forms once/round.
Level 9 Spell: Grand Master Baleful Polymorph - As Grand Master Polymorph, but more like Baleful Polymorph (Allows you to change what the creature is between your forms once/round)

SilverClawShift
2007-11-24, 08:33 PM
Indeed.

The only objection I have to the OP is that you beat me to posting the idea (I have been mulling on this solution for a while). :smallwink:

Start casting this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm) 4 or 5 times a day :smallwink:

WrstDmEvr
2007-11-24, 08:41 PM
Sounds pretty good.

TheLogman
2007-11-24, 08:43 PM
Minor Nit-pick, the prefix "poly" means many, and although is sometimes used improperly in games such as Warcraft, to mean the word literally would require the ability to transform into many forms, whereas these new spells do not, because, ya know, you can only turn into 1 thing per spell.

As such, the fourth and fifth level spells should probably be changed to like Change or Morph into X.

This is, however, because I am a linguistics-Nazi to an extent.

Now, onto useful contributions. The Master series of polymorph restricts the forms that are available to things you can already transform into, which is great, if you're a poly-mage (A term I have just coined to mean someone who has researched tons of Polymorphs.) Perhaps you can choose 1-3 more forms to add to your list that you can only access through the Master forms when you gain your Master form. That way, you don't have to research a couple 4th level spells just so that your 6th-9th level spells are useful.

greenknight
2007-11-24, 08:49 PM
Spellcasters (even wizards) only know so many spells. Sorcerers know very few, other classes know more.

A nitpick: Divine spellcasters are spellcasters too, and most of them know every spell on their class list. If you mean "arcane spellcasters", write it.


It seems like a very simple, very straightforward, and very rational way to bring a little more balance to the Polymorph spell would be to limit it to one, single, specific creature with no variations or exceptions to it whatsoever.

This is an excellent idea. So good WotC have already done it. Check out Complete Mage (Aspect of the Icy Hunter, Form of the Threefold Beast etc) and Spell Compendium.


When you memorize a polymorph spell (which only lasts for 1 minute per level remember)

Another nitpick: Polymorph lasts 1 minute/level. Polymorph any Object can last much longer.

Gralamin
2007-11-24, 08:49 PM
Minor Nit-pick, the prefix "poly" means many, and although is sometimes used improperly in games such as Warcraft, to mean the word literally would require the ability to transform into many forms, whereas these new spells do not, because, ya know, you can only turn into 1 thing per spell.

As such, the fourth and fifth level spells should probably be changed to like Change or Morph into X.

This is, however, because I am a linguistics-Nazi to an extent.

Now, onto useful contributions. The Master series of polymorph restricts the forms that are available to things you can already transform into, which is great, if you're a poly-mage (A term I have just coined to mean someone who has researched tons of Polymorphs.) Perhaps you can choose 1-3 more forms to add to your list that you can only access through the Master forms when you gain your Master form. That way, you don't have to research a couple 4th level spells just so that your 6th-9th level spells are useful.

good point on the poly part. I should Of changed that.
As for the additional forms, I'd say one new form a spell. It should be as difficult to make this broken good as possible.

Oh and No Metamorphic transfer. That feat should die.

Mr.Bookworm
2007-11-24, 08:49 PM
Didn't WotC pretty much try to do the same thing as a fix to Polymorph when they came out with all of the "form" spells?

Dhavaer
2007-11-24, 08:53 PM
Didn't WotC pretty much try to do the same thing as a fix to Polymorph when they came out with all of the "form" spells?

Yes, they have.


This is an excellent idea. So good WotC have already done it. Check out Complete Mage (Aspect of the Icy Hunter, Form of the Threefold Beast etc) and Spell Compendium.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-24, 08:55 PM
When you memorize a polymorph spell (which only lasts for 1 minute per level remember), you're picking a specific thing to change into. If you memorize "Polymorph into a troll" and being a troll just isn't that handy right now, tough.
Now, being a troll is, of course, always gonna be a little handy. Stat boosts and regeneration, an increased size... not bad.
But compare it to other 4th level spells. Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV (a celestial lion versus a troll is a somewhat decent fight, and the lion is WITH you instead of BEING you), Charm Monster, Lesser Geas...
I readily admit i might be wrong, but it seems that it becomes a decent question when divied up like that. Now, yeah, better polymorphs learned will be a lot more useful for a 4th level spell slot than the lower ones... but then you were taking the time to learn a 4th level spell when you coulda snagged a 7th or 8th level spell.

So, Polymorph subschool spell Trollshape? Because Troll from normal poymorph does not give regeneration.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-24, 08:56 PM
It is one of the three basic methods for balancing Polymorph that I'm aware of ("Limited Forms", specifically; the other two being "Variant Summoning" and "Mostly Illusion").

Other two methods are a bit of a tangent, so I'm putting them in spoilers...

Variant Summoning:

The biggest breaking from Polymorph as-is is it's "You plus" nature - the Wizard who uses Alter Self to become a Troglodite picks up +5 natural armor, at level 3, for half an hour - when the Druid's Barkskin spell is only giving out +2. That wouldn't be so bad, except that the Wizard can still cast spells, no problem.

The "Variant Summoning" approach is to address this directly. You Polymorph someone into a troglodite, they become a Monster Manual Troglodite, minus whatever that verson of the spell wouldn't give them. Wizard Polymorphs into a troglodite, and gets the five points of natural armor.... but he's now unable to cast spells (as the MM Troglodite doesn't have them). When you turn the Rogue into a Hydra, the Rogue loses the ability to perform sneak attack. If the subject of the Polymorph already has a Mage Armor spell (or any other, really) active at the time, it's suppressed. Damage taken in either form applies to both, spell is balancable based on CR.

This also cuts down on paperwork - you don't sit there for five minutes figuring out what you do and do not get - you just open your Monster Manual to that page, and cut out the segments that don't apply (e.g., Alter Self doesn't give you Ex qualities, or any Su or Sp - so those aren't in there) and use that as your character sheet for the duration.


Mostly Illusion:

This leaves things as "You Plus" but makes it more of a selectable buff spell, where you don't reference the Monster's abilities at all.

Any version of the line gives you a list of stuff you can do (with how many and how good based on your caster level and the spell in question). You don't turn the Rogue into a Hydra - you cloak him in an illusion of a hydra and give him X natural attacks (where X is based on your caster level and the specific spell). The spell is balanceable based on what it can do, which can be sharply defined.

This also cuts out most the paperwork - you're not sorting through ten abilities to see whether or not you keep them, and how they interact with each other - you're selecting two and seeing how they impact your character ("Okay.... we're going with +4 Strength and +2 natural armor - that's +2 to hit, +3 to damage with your greatsword, and +2 to your AC - done").

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-24, 10:55 PM
"Oh jesus no not another thread about ploymorph balance no no no no no no no no no NO"

Hear me out, please, because I haven't seen this suggested anywhere, and as an off-the-cuff concept, I'd like to know what people think about it. There's no need for hostilities, or for this thread to turn into an angry back and forth, come on, let's be civilized.

******************************

Polymorph is a very broken spell. Arguably, the main source of the brokeness is the sheer VASTNESS of the spell. Everytime WOTC releases a new book, a new list of monsters are tacked onto what the spell does. Everytime a caster memorizes the spell, every option on that list gets tucked into their mind and waits for the opportunity to present itself.
Wicked.

It also sounds more like a 9th level spell. Tack on getting a full nights worth of hitpoints back in the process, and you're sitting pretty.

******************************

Spellcasters (even wizards) only know so many spells. Sorcerers know very few, other classes know more. Wizards know 2 per level, and they can learn any others (but they need to FIND it, take the TIME to scribe it, and spend the GOLD it costs to fully research it, which isn't a small task when you're talking about learning hundereds of spells that take half a week to learn each).

Knowing more spells becomes a very important facet of any class. What spells you pick inherently, or search for, or otherwise find a way to gain access to defines who you are and what you can do, at least from a mechanical persepective. You could easily argue that what spells a wizard knows is the most important choice they make in their career. It's a limiting factor, sometimes not a very strong one, but it is a limiting factor.

******************************

"Balance" is a tricky game. When you're dealing with ideas that aren't necessarily mechanically identical, deciding which one is too powerful or not powerful enough becomes hard. The fact that there's a full bookshelf worth of other sub-rules and addon-rules and exceptions-to-the-rules and unrules only amplifies that difficulty.
The best thing you can do is compare what you're balancing to other stuff near its level and ask "Would I pick this one or this one?". If the answer's obvious, they're out of balance. If it's a tough call, you're closer to the money.

There's basically no reason not to learn polymorph, if only for the sheer raw fact that it's a wildcard. It's like having a few thousand other spells written and memorized, provided you can thumb through and find the right creature for the right situation.

*****************************

So a lot of hemming and hawing, allow me to get to the actual point.

It seems like a very simple, very straightforward, and very rational way to bring a little more balance to the Polymorph spell would be to limit it to one, single, specific creature with no variations or exceptions to it whatsoever.

"Polymorph into a Troll" is now one spell, "Polymorph into a Giant Wasp" is another, and "Polymorph into a Dire Shark" is another still.
When a wizard (or any caster) learns a polymorph spell, they pick and learn ONE. If they know multiple (by picking it more than once or learning it elsewhere), then when they memorize their spells for the day, they have to select and state explicitly which polymorph spell they are preparing.

This instantly causes a few changes.

Polymorph is based off of the hit die of the target. You can't polymorph into something that has more hit die than you have caster levels. If you learn a polymorph spell with more hit die than you currently have (say you picked "Polymorph intoa Juvenile Black Dragon" which has 13 hit die), then you learned a more powerful spell, yes, but you have to wait to use it. If you pick something you can actually use right now (A troll with 6 hit die) then you've learned a valuable spell, but it'll mean having to learn that black dragon polymorph later on, taking up another valuable spell learned (or taking up raw value in gold and time).

When you memorize a polymorph spell (which only lasts for 1 minute per level remember), you're picking a specific thing to change into. If you memorize "Polymorph into a troll" and being a troll just isn't that handy right now, tough.
Now, being a troll is, of course, always gonna be a little handy. Stat boosts and regeneration, an increased size... not bad.
But compare it to other 4th level spells. Stoneskin, Summon Monster IV (a celestial lion versus a troll is a somewhat decent fight, and the lion is WITH you instead of BEING you), Charm Monster, Lesser Geas...
I readily admit i might be wrong, but it seems that it becomes a decent question when divied up like that. Now, yeah, better polymorphs learned will be a lot more useful for a 4th level spell slot than the lower ones... but then you were taking the time to learn a 4th level spell when you coulda snagged a 7th or 8th level spell.

It also means, instead of banning the spell outright, or creating a pre-set list, the DM can still allow you the totally flavorfull and awesome ability to change your form for 1 minute per level. If there's a real honest-to-god problem form, the dm can ban IT explicitly. Alternatively, they now have you pigeon-holed into a smaller spot... your uber-animal you picked to polymorph into might be cool, but the DM can EXPECT it and plan accordingly.

I also think it's a lot better fluffwise. Instead of "Watch out, the witch in the cabin knows polymorph", it becomes "Careful, it's been said the witch sometimes takes the form of a vicious hellhound".

*****************************

Oh well, enough rambling, and I apologize for bringing up a heated subject. But again, please, let's try to be civil, and I'd like to know what people think of this idea (or if it's been suggested before, what possible flaws it has) before I bring it up to my groups DM.

Congratulations, you came up with the same fix many others have, and the one that WotC has already officially introduced. Or maybe you just read any of those in any of the thousand places they're posted or any of the dozen supplements it's mentioned in, and claimed it as your own idea. :smallannoyed:


Didn't WotC pretty much try to do the same thing as a fix to Polymorph when they came out with all of the "form" spells?

Yes. This is the exact same fix WotC ALREADY GAVE US, except less developed. :smallannoyed:

Dausuul
2007-11-24, 11:49 PM
Congratulations, you came up with the same fix many others have, and the one that WotC has already officially introduced. Or maybe you just read any of those in any of the thousand places they're posted or any of the dozen supplements it's mentioned in, and claimed it as your own idea. :smallannoyed:

Dude. Chill. Not everyone has read all the recent books.

Also, would you mind spoiler-ing your quote of the gigantic original post?

SilverClawShift
2007-11-25, 11:25 AM
Wow


Or maybe you just read any of those in any of the thousand places they're posted or any of the dozen supplements it's mentioned in, and claimed it as your own idea. :smallannoyed:

Yes. This is the exact same fix WotC ALREADY GAVE US, except less developed. :smallannoyed:

Wow.

Allright, I've never read this fix anywhere. I don't have every D&D book. My group might if you counted all our books together, but I've never seen it before, either officially or on any homebrew forums.
I thought it seemed like a good idea, and wanted to know what other people thought of it before I suggested it to my DM. I didn't have some cunning malicious scheme to make a fortune off of a random fix for a random arcane spell, I just wanted to know what people thought.

But I'm glad we could jump straight to the hostility. It accomplished a lot, right?

Dausuul
2007-11-25, 02:11 PM
Allright, I've never read this fix anywhere. I don't have every D&D book. My group might if you counted all our books together, but I've never seen it before, either officially or on any homebrew forums.

It's not a formal fix, exactly. WotC has simply started releasing a lot of spells that turn you into one specific monster, with all of that monster's abilities (trollform, dragonform, et cetera). You can find a bunch of them in the Spell Compendium and PHBII.

My own preference would be to change polymorph into a series of spells, like the summon monster line, and provide a list of options at each level. At the same time, when you polymorphed, you'd lose all your own abilities and adopt the stats of whatever you became, so you couldn't cast spells while polymorphed--basically, it'd follow the standard rules for the polymorph subschool.

This addresses the two big problems with polymorph (the ability to pick anything you damn well please from the Monster Manual, and the ability to cast spells while in a super-tough, super-strong form), while keeping a bit more of the spell's "what do you want to be today?" flavor.