Perceived subclass power rank?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I may be the wrong person to start this thread but given all the recent talk I was wondering what the steongest classes / subclasses were at different tables. I've been playing 1.3 times a week for a few years but do not feel I am an expert.

In this thread I am going for powerful vs damage per round. My goal is to soo bow folks take into account the magic effects of a Moon Druid vs the damage per round of a Vengance Paladin.

Bonus if you can explain power at different tiers and at different levels of experience. For example I feel my Lore Bard had a steeper learning curve than our Wizard.

[Psyren]

There are a ton of subclass tier listings out there if that's what you're looking for, especially on YouTube (see Treantmonk, Dungeon Dudes, Indestructoboy etc) as well as on message boards like this one. Search for "5e subclass tier list" and you'll find them easily.

Most will explain their criteria up front. In general these lists prioritize DPR, but also weight other things - with the best subclasses being those capable of high damage output when that is needed, but doing other things (including in the other two pillars of the game) when those approaches work better.

[Unoriginal]

I may be the wrong person to start this thread but given all the recent talk I was wondering what the steongest classes / subclasses were at different tables. I've been playing 1.3 times a week for a few years but do not feel I am an expert.

In this thread I am going for powerful vs damage per round. My goal is to soo bow folks take into account the magic effects of a Moon Druid vs the damage per round of a Vengance Paladin.

Bonus if you can explain power at different tiers and at different levels of experience. For example I feel my Lore Bard had a steeper learning curve than our Wizard.

When talking about comparing subclass power, it's quite important to establish if you're talking about the whole class + subclass package, or just the benefits of the subclass specifically.

Because the classes don't all have the same relationship with their subclasses.


especially on YouTube (see Treantmonk

I wouldn't suggest reading or watching Treantmonk's works for 5e. His assumptions and maths are quite faulty.

[Psyren]

Right, I forgot the disclaimer - even mentioning Treantmonk has a tendency to send threads into a tailspin, so I'll leave it up to the reader to decide how they feel about his work.

[animorte]

To me, power is in having reliable control options available when absolutely necessary. Someone else might see damage as the most powerful. For another surviving forever is power. Utilizing action economy and resources tends to be a good baseline to provide those forms of power.
That's just in combat, where anything out of combat can be about social interaction and various ways to avoid combat altogether, or even money-making, etc. This might be power to some.

I could definitely see starting an in-combat power ranking based on how different people prioritize these things: Control/Survivability/Damage

Taking into account every subclass from one base class vs subclasses from another base class will still almost always look something like Cleric > Sorcerer.


DPR:
Berserker Barbarian
Genie Warlock
Alchemist Artificer
Twilight Cleric
Lore Bard

In-combat utility:
Lore Bard
Twilight Cleric
Genie Warlock
Alchemist Artificer
Berserker Barbarian

I noticed it's pretty much reverse in DPR vs utility, though I would certainly expect that it could move around a bit with different levels of experience and optimization. There's also a great deal of variance depending on the events surrounding different players' comfort in using their resources. I listed it considering the average encounter but this can change drastically based on the difficulty of our opponents.

In my opinion the Lore Bard (my wife :smallbiggrin:) is easily the most valuable PC in combat because the consistent and various forms of being able to help allies and shut down the enemies. This allows everybody else to deal more damage and take less damage. The second is obviously myself (the Warlock). It certainly helps that she and I are the veterans and know how to optimize our action economy and resources significantly better than the rest of the group.

[Waazraath]

I'd skip youtube entirely - but that's personal, I don't know the quality of the material there but reading/scrolling through a forum goes much faster than watching a vid. If you start with this site: each class has one or several handbooks/guides, in which things are ranked according to usefullness, and subclasses are almost always part of the discussion. To be found here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?377491

Can't say I agree with everything in those, but most are more or less ok, at least. Going through the discussions below the guide often shows where people differer on how (e.g.) subclasses are asessed.

[Psyren]

Reading written guides is faster when you have free time, but I find listening to tier listing videos is a great use of time while I'm driving, cooking, at the supermarket, in a waiting room etc.

[Waazraath]

Reading written guides is faster when you have free time, but I find listening to tier listing videos is a great use of time while I'm driving, cooking, at the supermarket, in a waiting room etc.

Fair. You must be one of those folks that has time to listen to podcasts as well :) (to be fair, I do cook, but that's my moment to empty my head, don't try to think, and listen to metal).

[Psyren]

Fair. You must be one of those folks that has time to listen to podcasts as well :) (to be fair, I do cook, but that's my moment to empty my head, don't try to think, and listen to metal).

I put D&D videos and podcasts on in the background while working or the above activities yes :smallsmile:

[Merudo]

I wouldn't suggest reading or watching Treantmonk's works for 5e. His assumptions and maths are quite faulty.

I find Treantmonk to be among the best optimizer youtubers. His subclass ranking series is both extraordinarily extensive and very thorough. It's miles ahead of the Dungeon Dudes stuff for sure.

He does make some questionable assumptions (the main one being a long adventuring day) but he is consistent and as far as I can tell, mathematically correct.

Care to show how his math is "faulty"?

[Ogre Mage]

I can only comment on the spellcasting classes as that is all I play. In general the perceived optimized subclasses are:

Bard: lore, eloquence
Druid: moon, shepherd
Cleric: twilight, peace
Sorcerer: aberrant mind, clockwork soul, divine soul
Warlock: hexblade, genie
Wizard: chronurgy, divination, bladesinger

[Rashagar]

I find Treantmonk to be among the best optimizer youtubers. His subclass ranking series is both extraordinarily extensive and very thorough. It's miles ahead of the Dungeon Dudes stuff for sure.

He does make some questionable assumptions (the main one being a long adventuring day) but he is consistent and as far as I can tell, mathematically correct.

Care to show how his math is "faculty"?

One of the things I really like about him is he states all of his assumptions up front, and layers his thought processes and conclusions on top of them.

There's lots of guides and stuff that aren't that transparent in explaining where they're coming from (possibly because they're not as aware of their own assumptions?)