Extended Spell Metamagic

[Lord Ruby34]

How much play does the extended spell metamagic see at your tables? How much play does it see outside the Divine Soul? Finally, would it break anything to remove the restriction of it only effecting spells with a duration of one minute or more?

[Hytheter]

I see it mainly used to cast a spell with 8 hour duration (like Mage Armour or Foresight) before taking a long rest, so you still have 8 hours of the spell once you awaken.

[stoutstien]

It's most useful in DS and CS sorcerer. Outside if that it probably going to be a late pick if it's selected at all.

[RogueJK]

Little to no actual play.

However, in theory, Extended Spell metamagic through the Metamagic Adept feat could potentially be a very good choice for a Summoner.

[Lord Ruby34]

It's most useful in DS and CS sorcerer. Outside if that it probably going to be a late pick if it's selected at all.

That's what I'd assumed. I've never actually seen it selected at any table I've played at or DM'd (or if it was selected it was never used).

That brings me back to my original question. Would it break anything to allow Extended Spell to effect spells with a duration of less than one minute?

[stoutstien]

That's what I'd assumed. I've never actually seen it selected at any table I've played at or DM'd (or if it was selected it was never used).

That brings me back to my original question. Would it break anything to allow Extended Spell to effect spells with a duration of less than one minute?

Off the top of my head I can't think of a spell that would apply seeing how most spells that last less than a minute are considered instantaneous which is zero so double would still be zero.

[Segev]

That's what I'd assumed. I've never actually seen it selected at any table I've played at or DM'd (or if it was selected it was never used).

That brings me back to my original question. Would it break anything to allow Extended Spell to effect spells with a duration of less than one minute?

Yeah, examples of what spells you're thinking of might help us evaluate.

[strangebloke]

That's what I'd assumed. I've never actually seen it selected at any table I've played at or DM'd (or if it was selected it was never used).

That brings me back to my original question. Would it break anything to allow Extended Spell to effect spells with a duration of less than one minute?

Yes, but more in the sense of "jank" rather than "overpowered." See 'shield' for example. 1 round duration, but the effect lasts until the start of your next turn. What is "doubling" in this instance? By raw it should do nothing. Command seems like it would be one possible usage here, for example. But the wording there is weird too. The spell says "on their next action." What does the duration actually correspond to here? What does a two-round sending do?

In some of the other cases where the duration is 'one round' and it works, there's a secondary duration that's more relevant and the extension does nothing. So absorb elements elements for example has a one round duration, but that duration only impacts the elemental damage rider effect you get on your next hit, not the main purpose of the spell. Extending it wouldn't increase the amount of time your resistance lasts or the number of attacks you can get the elemental rider damage on.

Basically, it would maybe be useful, but mostly just confusing. Unless there's a specific spell I'm forgetting.

[ender241]

Off the top of my head I can't think of a spell that would apply seeing how most spells that last less than a minute are considered instantaneous which is zero so double would still be zero.

There are a number of spells with a duration of 1 round. Reactions like shield, absorb elements, etc. where the protection lasts until your next turn. Or things that last until the targets next turn, like booming blade, tasha's mind whip, etc. The interesting thing is that changing the duration would actually conflict with the text of these spells in most cases, since they typically say explicitly when it ends, e.g. "until the end of the target's next turn" or "until the start of your next turn", etc. Whereas spells that last an hour or longer will typically just say "for the duration" or "until the spell ends".

That being said, I think if you change it with the understanding that the spell's text updates accordingly, I think it works. It creates some potentially interesting uses. Nothing sticks out to me as completely broken but it's entirely possible I'm missing something as there are a lot of spells that have a 1 round duration.

[PhantomSoul]

Off the top of my head I can't think of a spell that would apply seeing how most spells that last less than a minute are considered instantaneous which is zero so double would still be zero.

I'm guessing the limited number of one-round spells are all that's left?

PHB list:

Blade Ward
Chill Touch
Message
True Strike
Color Spray
Command
Guiding Bolt
Shield
Sending
Teleportation Circle
Transport via Plants
Tsunami (up to 6 rounds, weirdly!)


Some of them might have weird phrasings that would make them incompatible, strange or useless for a longer-than-one-round applications, e.g. Absorb Element's text:


The spell captures some of the incoming energy, lessening its effect on you and storing it for your next melee attack. You have resistance to the triggering damage type until the start of your next turn. Also, the first time you hit with a melee attack on your next turn, the target takes an extra 1d6 damage of the triggering type, and the spell ends.

Teleportation similarly gives an explicit end point within the text of the spell (" A shimmering portal opens within the circle you drew and remains open until the end of your next turn. ").

Some are presumably not a big deal, though, e.g. Color Spray (both in terms of phrasing and in terms of effect).

[Segev]

There are a number of spells with a duration of 1 round. Reactions like shield, absorb elements, etc. where the protection lasts until your next turn. Or things that last until the targets next turn, like booming blade, tasha's mind whip, etc. The interesting thing is that changing the duration would actually conflict with the text of these spells in most cases, since they typically say explicitly when it ends, e.g. "until the end of the target's next turn" or "until the start of your next turn", etc. Whereas spells that last an hour or longer will typically just say "for the duration" or "until the spell ends".

That being said, I think if you change it with the understanding that the spell's text updates accordingly, I think it works. It creates some potentially interesting uses. Nothing sticks out to me as completely broken but it's entirely possible I'm missing something as there are a lot of spells that have a 1 round duration.

When it's all edge cases, the best thing to do is try it in your home game, and see if it works well. Just make sure player and DM are both aware that it can change if it doesn't work well, and that the character may have to or be permitted to change his build choices accordingly.

[Lord Ruby34]

When it's all edge cases, the best thing to do is try it in your home game, and see if it works well. Just make sure player and DM are both aware that it can change if it doesn't work well, and that the character may have to or be permitted to change his build choices accordingly.

Works for me! My group is currently in the process of writing out potential house rules for the next campaign, so we'll try this one and see how it goes.

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, everyone.

[sambojin]

This will sound terrible, but True Strike? That could be extended....

[RogueJK]

This will sound terrible, but True Strike? That could be extended....

https://media1.giphy.com/media/s239QJIh56sRW/giphy.gif

[Sorinth]

I don't see it much beyond DS. I wonder if instead of an up front cost if instead you could spend the SP before the spell ends to extend it for it's duration again. So you could basically keep the spell going for as long as you have sorcery points to spend.

But really anything you do to extend metamagic just helps DS more, so the real answer might be to give more decent 1hr/8hr spells to the Sorcerer.

[RogueJK]

But really anything you do to extend metamagic just helps DS more, so the real answer might be to give more decent 1hr/8hr spells to the Sorcerer.

Yeah... At least they've gotten a couple more lately, with stuff like Intellect Fortress from Tasha's, and Summon Draconic Spirit from Fizban's.

And Clockwork Soul can have non-Sorcerer stuff like Summon Construct, Tiny Servant, and Armor of Agathys.

Aberrant Mind also get access to a couple more, like Summon Aberration and Rary's Telepathic Bond,

[sambojin]

Away from the "what about instants?" question, I did take Metamagic Adept W/ Extend and Subtle in a game where we started with a free feat as a Firbolg Moon Druid. It actually worked really well, essentially giving me free'ish spell slots on my summons when they didn't all die (because they'd last a couple of encounters quite easily when extended).

I even used it on racial super-Disguise Self once, and extended a wildshape familiar to do watch duty as well one night (mostly because I could). It was mostly for extra long-lasting summons, which gave me a few more casts of Tidal Wave in combat, so it upped my DPR a bit. Subtle was handy in social situations once as well, just for a free Guidance in front of a crowd for our Bard. I also found I was consistently left with a couple of slots each day, so good berries were an even more reliable source of healing for the party.

It wasn't super powerful, mostly because Moon Druids have tonnes of resources anyway, but it was very flexible in use. It was fun to discover that my racial abilities and wildshape familiars actually counted as "casting a spell", so could be Extended like any other.

[Kane0]

As written, it's pretty damn rarely seen at my tables. I instituted a houserule that instead increases the duration by one standard 'magnitude' using the metamagic and it became much more popular, about equal to empower. 1 minute > 10 minutes > 1 hour > 8 hours > 24 hours.

[Angelalex242]

Well...presumably these 1 round spells would simply last 2 rounds. So, your Shield spell lasts two rounds. That's...all it does, really.

[CMCC]

I see it mainly used to cast a spell with 8 hour duration (like Mage Armour or Foresight) before taking a long rest, so you still have 8 hours of the spell once you awaken.

Death ward and upcast aid are two of the best.

[Silpharon]

As written, it's pretty damn rarely seen at my tables. I instituted a houserule that instead increases the duration by one standard 'magnitude' using the metamagic and it became much more popular, about equal to empower. 1 minute > 10 minutes > 1 hour > 8 hours > 24 hours.

That's smart, I like that take. You could turn a rope trick spell into a long rest.

[Hytheter]

Death ward and upcast aid are two of the best.

For sure. My level 20 bardlock with the Boon of Spell Recall uses his two SP (from the feat) to Extend Foresight and Ninth Level Aid (the latter includes his simulacrum). Death Ward I cast raw because the 4th level slots are cheaper, but I also have it on contingency. :smallbiggrin:

[SharkForce]

personally, I'm fond of giving extend the empowered spell treatment. use it as a free action just before the spell ends and double the spell's duration only when it is needed, plus it no longer competes to be the only metamagic used on a spell.

that said, I also allow it to work on spells shorter than 1 minute (with appropriate changes to wording as mentioned above).

[diplomancer]

It's nice on a Warlock with Summonning spells.