General Impressions of the Psi Warrior?

[ImproperJustice]

Thinking of playing one in an upcoming game.
Starting level is 11, and should go to 15.

I was curious if anyone here has test driven one and was curious about their observations.

How did things go in combat? How about exploration and role play?

What were some of the strengths and some of the short comings of the class?

Any advice on how to meld in a group is welcome too.

[Amechra]

Psi-Powered Leap is fun times.

[Dork_Forge]

I played a Dex-based Jedi using a Githyanki a couple of times now and it's been really fun. Being hyper-mobile when you need it let's you do some crazy jump shenanigans, the damage is nice. The first time I played one he was probably the reason we avoided a TPK, the damage reduction helped out the party's HP well and physically yanked one out of a death situation with the force pull they get at 3rd.

[LudicSavant]

Thinking of playing one in an upcoming game.
Starting level is 11, and should go to 15.

I was curious if anyone here has test driven one and was curious about their observations.

How did things go in combat? How about exploration and role play?

What were some of the strengths and some of the short comings of the class?

Any advice on how to meld in a group is welcome too.

It's not as frontloaded as a Battle Master, but its resources scale with proficiency (rather than class level), and it has more resources than it might initially look like (because of the "free use the first time" bits).

Psi-powered leap stands out as gasp an actual mobility feature on a Fighter! They almost never have those, and it helps to mitigate one of the bigger weaknesses of the class (its slug-like base mobility).

Telekinetic Thrust is notable for having no size limit, unlike comparable Battle Master maneuvers.

Guarded Mind is really good, allowing you to just switch off charm and fear effects (both of which are normally devastating to Fighters, and you remove them action-free). It also makes you resistant to Psychic damage, which -- as it turns out -- is one of the most common monster damage types in the game.

Bulwark of Force is a significant buff, basically giving everyone in the party +2 AC and Dex saves as a bonus action. Like, you should want to do this pretty regularly.

It's MAD, and not as topheavy as the Battle Master, but it's good stuff.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I played a Warlock 2, Psi-Warrior 3 for several sessions then the campaign stalled. That Kylo Ren light build seemed pretty busy and able to surprise the other players with abilities. The character was NOT optimized from a stat standpoint. Like my inspiration my character Kyle wasn't the brightest, but while it wasn't the hardest hitting it did damage.

[ImproperJustice]

Thanks to everyone for the input!

Sounds like the Mobility from Psionic Leap is one of crowd favorites.

I am kinda leaning towards a mobile strength based Tabaxi anyways, packing a Mace (kind of a Battle Beast knock off).

So charging up and launching myself 60-120’ through the air seems like a great way to get into or out of trouble on my terms.

Also batting people around with the mace while shrugging off fear (which our GM seems to hurl against us semi often) will be handy.

Cool. Should make for a fun character in our upcoming adventure.

[Psyren]

I like them because they reward being a "smart fighter" which few subclasses do.

I tend to build them for melee since most of their abilities have a 30ft. range, which is essentially melee range for most monsters anyway. That also makes the "free knock prone" part of TK Thrust more useful. Dex or Str are both fine, just don't skimp on Int (I generally go Str.)

As I mentioned in the "best tanks" thread, they're pretty solid at the job, easily able to fulfill the "protect self," "protect allies", and "get around the battlefield" parts of the role. And unlike many other tanks, they can reposition allies to get them out of harm's way safely.


It's not as frontloaded as a Battle Master, but its resources scale with proficiency (rather than class level), and it has more resources than it might initially look like (because of the "free use the first time" bits).

You also get a die back AND the free use of some abilities back (PPL and TM) on a short rest, so you can really stretch your pool in some sessions. Starting at 11 you'll have plenty though.

Any good multiclass ideas or breakpoints?

[LudicSavant]

Any good multiclass ideas or breakpoints?

A friend of mine is messing with an Artificer / Psi Warrior build of some kind. Not sure how it's turned out yet.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Also batting people around with the mace while shrugging off fear (which our GM seems to hurl against us semi often) will be handy.

Batting people around with Telekinetic Thrust, is not assured, at the levels you will be playing at, since TK Thrust has a Saving Throw.

The Stunned, Incapacitated, and Paralyzed conditions are helpful in terms of negating the opportunity for a Saving Throw, however.
(Coordinate with your friends😉)

TK Movement, in my experience, can lead to amusing moments.
TK Movement has one free use per day, which in practice means you can Ready an Action to catch a ranged projectile, which includes Large sized boulders/objects. Telekinetic Movement has no weight limitations.

One could lift their own horse, (potentially while being ridden by one’s self), drop it on some foes, and use Protective Shield to mitigate the damage.

[Damon_Tor]

Thanks to everyone for the input!

Sounds like the Mobility from Psionic Leap is one of crowd favorites.

I am kinda leaning towards a mobile strength based Tabaxi anyways, packing a Mace (kind of a Battle Beast knock off).

So charging up and launching myself 60-120’ through the air seems like a great way to get into or out of trouble on my terms.

Also batting people around with the mace while shrugging off fear (which our GM seems to hurl against us semi often) will be handy.

Cool. Should make for a fun character in our upcoming adventure.

Oooh, with your mobility you're have access to the psychic piledriver maneuver.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624030-The-Hextuple-Psychic-Piledriver-Or-how-to-wield-THE-PLANET-as-a-20d6-weapon

The build there is multiclassed into barbarian and wizard for maximum mobility, but it's not strictly necessary to get great use out of the tactic. Encourage a spellcaster in your party to cast haste in you when it's time to party.

[stoutstien]

Based on what I've seen so far it's solid both as a single class or a multiclass option. It's damage is behind the standard BM but the gap isn't large enough to see in actual play. even if it a little more MaD it is less finicky with resource management. You don't need to keep a mental log going to see if precision is worth it or not or pick between trip attack and another maneuver.

Id give it a solid 7/10.

** Loses a point due to Prof dice being to scale a subclass feature which I'm not a fan of. Loses another point for falling back on using spells as features. If you don't mind those things it's a 9. good but below BM and RK.**

[Dork_Forge]

Based on what I've seen so far it's solid both as a single class or a multiclass option. It's damage is behind the standard BM but the gap isn't large enough to see in actual play. even if it a little more MaD it is less finicky with resource management. You don't need to keep a mental log going to see if precision is worth it or not or pick between trip attack and another maneuver.

Id give it a solid 7/10.

** Loses a point due to Prof dice being to scale a subclass feature which I'm not a fan of. Loses another point for falling back on using spells as features. If you don't mind those things it's a 9. good but below BM and RK.**

Worth noting that the MADness can be a plus, by relying on a modifier the results are more reliable/consistent than a BM's Superiority Dice.

[stoutstien]

Worth noting that the MADness can be a plus, by relying on a modifier the results are more reliable/consistent than a BM's Superiority Dice.

Very true. I almost had a line about how the consistency with the way the psi warrior's die + modifier compared to just a die has a better feel to it. Having only *5* per LR makes them a little more conservative at first but by the time the Prof bonus hits 4 they have plenty of fuel.

[Dork_Forge]

Very true. I almost had a line about how the consistency with the way the psi warrior's die + modifier compared to just a die has a better feel to it. Having only *5* per LR makes them a little more conservative at first but by the time the Prof bonus hits 4 they have plenty of fuel.

That's 5 up front, the one die recharge comes back on a short rest, so even a conservative one SR day bumps that up to 6, whilst the recommended cranks it to 7. Still not touching the amount of SD, but I think that's a good thing for diversity (and it's not like you can't bolt on a couple of SD onto a Psi Warrior anyway).

[stoutstien]

That's 5 up front, the one die recharge comes back on a short rest, so even a conservative one SR day bumps that up to 6, whilst the recommended cranks it to 7. Still not touching the amount of SD, but I think that's a good thing for diversity (and it's not like you can't bolt on a couple of SD onto a Psi Warrior anyway).

I fat fingered in erased my -7 after the five lol. Totally agree they aren't starving for psi dice but you're not going to want to be spending more than one per round on a regular basis at first. I've noticed it's really tempted to spend them quickly at lower levels when the protective field has a larger impact. I only have two in regular play at the moment so it's a pretty small sample size.

**I'm a huge fan of partial resource pool recovery and I hope to see more of it in the future. It almost makes up for the fact it's based on something that's not directly tied to the subclass progression with proficiency but not quite.**

[Psyren]

That's 5 up front, the one die recharge comes back on a short rest, so even a conservative one SR day bumps that up to 6, whilst the recommended cranks it to 7. Still not touching the amount of SD, but I think that's a good thing for diversity (and it's not like you can't bolt on a couple of SD onto a Psi Warrior anyway).

Adding to this, some of your free power uses come back on a SR too, so you're actually double-dipping.


Loses a point due to Prof dice being to scale a subclass feature which I'm not a fan of.

If the latest SA is any indication (and MotM for that matter) you're probably going to want to get used to PB-scaling features :smalltongue:

But PB(x) for things I want to be doing more than once per combat is fantastic too.

[stoutstien]

If the latest SA is any indication (and MotM for that matter) you're probably going to want to get used to PB-scaling features :smalltongue:

But PB(x) for things I want to be doing more than once per combat is fantastic too.

Never will be a fan unless they also address multiclassing. So far it hasn't been a large issue but it's a unnecessary complexity they are adding that could lead to more nuclear wizards just because they miss something. I know it sound slippery slopeish but the fact it's already happened is grounds for concern.

Not like it's saving text space to have the exact same feature with identical scaling based on class LV rather than PB.

**The changes to racial features to be PB based is fine for the most part**

[Dork_Forge]

Never will be a fan unless they also address multiclassing. So far it hasn't been a large issue but it's a unnecessary complexity they are adding that could lead to more nuclear wizards just because they miss something. I know it sound slippery slopeish but the fact it's already happened is grounds for concern.

Not like it's saving text space to have the exact same feature with identical scaling based on class LV rather than PB.

I'd rather them just write out the same numbers too, personally. There's no need to make it so MCing compatible, the shift has already led to so much use of the Dragonborn breath time, that's not been too much of an issue, but 100% highlights the issue with shifting to prof bonus without some stipulations in place.

[Psyren]

Never will be a fan unless they also address multiclassing. So far it hasn't been a large issue but it's a unnecessary complexity they are adding that could lead to more nuclear wizards just because they miss something. I know it sound slippery slopeish but the fact it's already happened is grounds for concern.

Not like it's saving text space to have the exact same feature with identical scaling based on class LV rather than PB.

**The changes to racial features to be PB based is fine for the most part**


I'd rather them just write out the same numbers too, personally. There's no need to make it so MCing compatible, the shift has already led to so much use of the Dragonborn breath time, that's not been too much of an issue, but 100% highlights the issue with shifting to prof bonus without some stipulations in place.

I guess I'm not really seeing the issue from where I'm sitting. Things that scale with character level are a good thing (I love 5e's approach to multiclass casters) especially since you're already paying the opportunity cost of giving up your high-level features and capstone. On top of which, multiclassing is optional anyway.

("Nuclear wizard?")

[Dork_Forge]

I guess I'm not really seeing the issue from where I'm sitting. Things that scale with character level are a good thing (I love 5e's approach to multiclass casters) especially since you're already paying the opportunity cost of giving up your high-level features and capstone. On top of which, multiclassing is optional anyway.

("Nuclear wizard?")

MCing is very potent in 5e already with the front-loaded nature of subclasses and key class features, so then making a shift that further incentivises it furthers that.

This is really an issue because this is clearly not how 5e was meant to be, nor was it how it was for most of its life. Had they just waited until 2024 this would have been more palatable. As it stands they're just muddying the design, skewing the balance that did exist as a test bed from something that won't be out for two more years.

Disclaimer: I'm strongly against using a live edition for testing the next, it's just disrespectful of the players that actually play and enjoy 5e how it was intended.

And the Nuclear Wizard is a cheese build that takes advantage of a (JC approved) rules interaction with rolling dice for magic missile. The long and short of it is things like Hexblades curse would apply to all darts, because you roll the die once and multiple it. Don't agree with or allow it personally.

[stoutstien]

Nuke wizard was just an example. Still strong even without the MM cheese. Being tied to damage regardless of attack/save/whatever just gives them a large spike in damage which isn't a weak point for invokers to begin with.

Plenty of other Prof based features that tie into multiclassing a little too easy for my taste. Undead/genie locks and such.

- steering back on topic-
Lv 11-15 is the sweet spot for PK so it's probably worth giving it a swing. Means you can also start out with enough ASIs to skip the struggle of picking one over the other. The standard rules for fighters still apply as far as which feats to use though your bonus action is busy enough to lose some use from PaM or CBE.

-you have enough P dice to use your Psi strike often. If anyone has a blender spell up it can stack up the hurt quick. Can grab the telekinetic feat to double dip here if it's a ready available tactic. On theme as well.

- double walk speed flight as a bonus action once a SR is really good for a class that usually suffers as far as speed goes. Grapple +drop, smack a dragon, and pretend to be a monk a few times a day.

-Don't discount the fact the half cover isn't tied to the PK as far as range goes once it up. One Psi die(after the first one) and a bonus action is cheap make sure your party to have cover even if they are flying around.

[Dork_Forge]

Piggybacking off the above, you can build into your features with your race, something with a speed boost will make the flight more potent, taking the new version of the Goliath let's you do a personal Protective Field effect with far more frequency.

[Psyren]

And the Nuclear Wizard is a cheese build that takes advantage of a (JC approved) rules interaction with rolling dice for magic missile. The long and short of it is things like Hexblades curse would apply to all darts, because you roll the die once and multiple it. Don't agree with or allow it personally.

Ah gotcha. I agree that's a silly interaction, but it's easily fixable by changing "damage rolls against the target" to "one damage roll per turn" or similar. And if the player balks at that, tell them their choice is to accept that ruling or not be allowed to MC at all (it being optional).


MCing is very potent in 5e already with the front-loaded nature of subclasses and key class features, so then making a shift that further incentivises it furthers that.

This is really an issue because this is clearly not how 5e was meant to be, nor was it how it was for most of its life. Had they just waited until 2024 this would have been more palatable. As it stands they're just muddying the design, skewing the balance that did exist as a test bed from something that won't be out for two more years.

Disclaimer: I'm strongly against using a live edition for testing the next, it's just disrespectful of the players that actually play and enjoy 5e how it was intended.

I'd much rather they get the most efficient and effective testing/feedback possible than inhibit their process over some misguided attempt at "respect." Break those eggs to make the best omelette I say.

[Pooky the Imp]

Am I missing something, though, or are a lot of the Psi Warrior's features pretty naff?

Protective Field uses a psi dice to reduce damage to you or an ally by d6+int. I guess it might be okay if it will stop you or an ally going to 0hp, but at all other times it seems a pretty pathetic use of a psi dice. Even more so when you consider that monster damage scales a hell of a lot faster than your dice does.

Similarly, Psionic Strike uses a psi dice to do d6+int extra damage. This seems like a marginally stronger version of an ability that other classes/subclasses get . . . except that it costs you resources while they can use it every single round for free. :smallyuk:

Is there something here that I'm not seeing? :smallconfused:

[stoutstien]

Piggybacking off the above, you can build into your features with your race, something with a speed boost will make the flight more potent, taking the new version of the Goliath let's you do a personal Protective Field effect with far more frequency.

Aye.while being a simple subclass it ties into a lot of different options well. No matter what you want to do it has something to make it better. If Im going to play a fighter it would be a rune knight but psi is runner up.

[stoutstien]

Am I missing something, though, or are a lot of the Psi Warrior's features pretty naff?

Protective Field uses a psi dice to reduce damage to you or an ally by d6+int. I guess it might be okay if it will stop you or an ally going to 0hp, but at all other times it seems a pretty pathetic use of a psi dice. Even more so when you consider that monster damage scales a hell of a lot faster than your dice does.

Similarly, Psionic Strike uses a psi dice to do d6+int extra damage. This seems like a marginally stronger version of an ability that other classes/subclasses get . . . except that it costs you resources while they can use it every single round for free. :smallyuk:

Is there something here that I'm not seeing? :smallconfused:

By the math it's not far behind the battle master as far as output goes which is the poster child of decent mix of burst and substantial damage. Psi favors melee more with the prone chance every turn but it can work for a mid range Archer as well. It's sneakily good in play.

I'll see if I can dig out my players sheet to see a real example of a PK PC as a whole.

[Psyren]

Am I missing something, though, or are a lot of the Psi Warrior's features pretty naff?

Protective Field uses a psi dice to reduce damage to you or an ally by d6+int. I guess it might be okay if it will stop you or an ally going to 0hp, but at all other times it seems a pretty pathetic use of a psi dice. Even more so when you consider that monster damage scales a hell of a lot faster than your dice does.

Similarly, Psionic Strike uses a psi dice to do d6+int extra damage. This seems like a marginally stronger version of an ability that other classes/subclasses get . . . except that it costs you resources while they can use it every single round for free. :smallyuk:

Is there something here that I'm not seeing? :smallconfused:

You mean besides the fact that you're a fighter who normally wouldn't get either of these things? Or the dice scaling?

Protective Field isn't huge, but it also stacks with everything - temp HP, Aid, resistance, saving throws, heals etc. As the sole means of defending your party it's not too amazing, but combined with everything else you can be a tough nut to crack. And you can choose to use it after the damage is rolled, which is even better.

As for Psi Strike - Yeah it doesn't add a ton to your base damage, but you're a fighter, your base damage is pretty good already (especially with feats).

[Dork_Forge]

I'd much rather they get the most efficient and effective testing/feedback possible than inhibit their process over some misguided attempt at "respect." Break those eggs to make the best omelette I say.

Except it isn't eggs, it's the omelette they already made and people are enjoying.


Am I missing something, though, or are a lot of the Psi Warrior's features pretty naff?

I actually really like the subclass, so let's take a look!


Protective Field uses a psi dice to reduce damage to you or an ally by d6+int. I guess it might be okay if it will stop you or an ally going to 0hp, but at all other times it seems a pretty pathetic use of a psi dice. Even more so when you consider that monster damage scales a hell of a lot faster than your dice does.

I think the main thing you're missing here is protecting concentration, which any amount of damage reduction significantly effects due to the way it's calculated.

It can also reduce enough damage to prevent an instadeath early level.

Otherwise I'd just say you may be thinking of it wrong, the point isn't to completely nullify the attacks, it's to take the edge off so that character can get more rounds in, so it doesn't really matter if attacks scale faster.


Similarly, Psionic Strike uses a psi dice to do d6+int extra damage. This seems like a marginally stronger version of an ability that other classes/subclasses get . . . except that it costs you resources while they can use it every single round for free. :smallyuk:

It sounds like you're thinking of Ranger subclasses? Rangers rely on their subclasses for damage by design, and that damage is certainly not always free. There's no Fighter subclass that get's what you're saying, and you should really compare apples to apples as much as possible.

Otherwise what you may be missing here is that the force damage is a nice type to have, and it becomes far more impactful than just damage at 7th level.


Is there something here that I'm not seeing? :smallconfused:

Finally just that the mechanics scale in multiple ways:

-You can increase your Int mod

-You naturally get more Psi Dice

-Those dice grow larger

-The features are sometimes added onto by other features

Looking at a snapshot at 3rd level is only helpful when you're looking at play around that level. Reducing damage by something like 1d6+3 (6.5 avg) is pretty meaningful when that amounts to around 23% of your own max HP, and far more of the max for other classes below a D10 HD.

[Psyren]

Except it isn't eggs, it's the omelette they already made and people are enjoying.

1) No one is taking your existing omelette away from you.
2) The more feedback they get now, the better the future one will be. Waiting until the breakfast buffet to do that is not a good plan.



I think the main thing you're missing here is protecting concentration, which any amount of damage reduction significantly effects due to the way it's calculated.

It can also reduce enough damage to prevent an instadeath early level.

Both solid points.



Finally just that the mechanics scale in multiple ways:

-You can increase your Int mod

-You naturally get more Psi Dice

-Those dice grow larger

-The features are sometimes added onto by other features

Just to add to this: the non-offensive advantages are important too. Psi Warrior can skip Resilient (Wisdom) more easily than other fighters since Charm and Fear don't take them out of a fight, and they might even be able to get by without a means of flight. Both of those are things they can potentially reallocate to even more offense.

[Amechra]

A friend of mine is messing with an Artificer / Psi Warrior build of some kind. Not sure how it's turned out yet.

The one time I played a Psi Warrior was during a level 10 one-shot, where I played a Warforged Armorer 3/Psi-Warrior 7. It felt pretty alright, though I was definitely unoptimized (my group aren't great at optimizing — I picked up Dual Wielder just so that I could TWF with my "robot fists", and I was still leading the party on DPR.)