Converting a Pathfinder melee cleric to 5e

[Elder_Basilisk]

It looks like my DM is going to want to convert our Pathfinder game to 5e at some point in the future and based on what I've seen so far in other 5e games, it doesn't look like there is a straightforward conversion process that would work to capture my character.

The character is 10th level and is a hardcore melee focused cleric of Mayaheine. (Greyhawk demigoddess of war and victory). Strength higher than wisdom, good and glory domains and all feats focused on combat (except leadership) and wields a bastard sword while wearing full plate. In combat he typically focuses on cutting things apart and patches the party up afterwards with a wand or channel energy. He does occasionally use spells for offense or utility, but is more likely to cast divine favor or righteousness might. In terms of combat effectiveness, he's on a par with the dedicated fighters in most situations but due to stat choices does not really contribute fully as a spellcaster.

Now from what I can tell that doesn't really convert in 5e. If he wants the spellcasting ability, he is going to give up most of the combat ability (regardless of stats, a do radiant damage at level 8 doesn't really hold a candle to extra attacks and smites). And if he wants combat ability, he needs to put 5 or six levels into fighter or paladin. Or he should just switch to paladin entirely.

What's the best way to handle that? If he switches over to 100% paladin, it seems like the party would lose a lot of healing capacity. On the other hand, multiclassing seems like it is likely to make him worse at everything without providing any superior options until level 12 or 13. (Well, I guess bonus action healing, the possibility of self-healing when you use it if he went life cleric, and a 4th level slot to cast magic weapon from are things a full paladin couldn't do at 10th level and eventually the cleric bonus radiant damage would make up for losing greater smite)? How would you reimagine the he character to fit in 5e?

[Pildion]

It looks like my DM is going to want to convert our Pathfinder game to 5e at some point in the future and based on what I've seen so far in other 5e games, it doesn't look like there is a straightforward conversion process that would work to capture my character.

The character is 10th level and is a hardcore melee focused cleric of Mayaheine. (Greyhawk demigoddess of war and victory). Strength higher than wisdom, good and glory domains and all feats focused on combat (except leadership) and wields a bastard sword while wearing full plate. In combat he typically focuses on cutting things apart and patches the party up afterwards with a wand or channel energy. He does occasionally use spells for offense or utility, but is more likely to cast divine favor or righteousness might. In terms of combat effectiveness, he's on a par with the dedicated fighters in most situations but due to stat choices does not really contribute fully as a spellcaster.

Now from what I can tell that doesn't really convert in 5e. If he wants the spellcasting ability, he is going to give up most of the combat ability (regardless of stats, a do radiant damage at level 8 doesn't really hold a candle to extra attacks and smites). And if he wants combat ability, he needs to put 5 or six levels into fighter or paladin. Or he should just switch to paladin entirely.

What's the best way to handle that? If he switches over to 100% paladin, it seems like the party would lose a lot of healing capacity. On the other hand, multiclassing seems like it is likely to make him worse at everything without providing any superior options until level 12 or 13. (Well, I guess bonus action healing, the possibility of self-healing when you use it if he went life cleric, and a 4th level slot to cast magic weapon from are things a full paladin couldn't do at 10th level and eventually the cleric bonus radiant damage would make up for losing greater smite)? How would you reimagine the he character to fit in 5e?

Honestly a Paladin is going to be far closer to a Pathfinder Cleric feated out for melee combat, your going to lose alot of healing ability ether way, there is nothing in 5e that could make up for losing channel energy. its basically Prayer of Healing that doesn't use a spell lot. Pre-nerfed healing spirit might have been able to keep up haha. The only way your keeping up with healing in 5e is to go full Life Cleric, but that is going to be alot less melee then your looking for in this character.

[nickl_2000]

I'm inclined to agree that Paladin would be the best choice. You could also do Paladin 6, then Divine Soul Sorcerer from there. That would patch up your healing capabilities, be able to smite like a champ, and have 2 attacks. Plus you still would have some of that Clericy feel to it.

[LtPowers]

I agree with Pildion. On the bright side, in 5e you don't need to heal party members as often.

A two-level dip in Life Cleric would provide a decent boost to a Paladin's healing ability, though, as well as more spell slots.


Powers &8^]

[Elder_Basilisk]

So it looks like there are a few options. Do I understand the pros and cons correctly?

1. 2 level dip in life cleric (is the second level only for bonus spell slots?--it seems like spirit of life is the real benefit)
Benefits: bonus action healing spell and +2 +spell lvl to healing which is a significant improvement on prayer of healing and healing word.
Costs: a couple hp, fewer paladin spells known. Must have wisdom 13.

2. Level 6 paladin+ divine soul sorcerer the rest
Benefits: higher level spell slots to smite, buff, and heal with, bonus action healing, metamagic to bonus action cast good spells
Costs: 2 HP/lvl, no 3rd level spells known until level 11. No improved smiting ever.

3. Just go straight paladin.
Benefits: higher lay on hands burst healing, immediate access to 3rd level spells (not just spell slots). Laura of courage. Next level: greater smiting
Costs: none-default option. But it may be difficult to function as party healer with no additional healing features and limited spell slots.

[Kane0]

Is there something wrong with War cleric?

[Arkhios]

Is there something wrong with War cleric?

Maybe their lack of Extra Attack; instead having a measly Wis Modifier per long rest "extra" attack as a Bonus Action?

[Psyren]

Remind your DM they can substitute the features of a class as well (DMG 287). I don't think sticking Extra Attack onto a War Cleric in place of the (rather lame) Divine Strike would be a big deal.

[Kane0]

Maybe their lack of Extra Attack; instead having a measly Wis Modifier per long rest "extra" attack as a Bonus Action?

Yeah it isnt the best but its still some free bonus action attacks without you needing to spend spell slots on spiritual weapon or feats on something like polearm master/great weapon master and still get to use the bastard sword as mentioned.

Perhaps ask the DM if they would allow this
bonus action attack when you cast a bladetrip as well (green flame/boomong blade), or grabbing some smite spells somehow like by swapping out some subclass spells or with background or race or feat or something.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Yeah it isnt the best but its still some free bonus action attacks without you needing to spend spell slots on spiritual weapon or feats on something like polearm master/great weapon master and still get to use the bastard sword as mentioned.

Perhaps ask the DM if they would allow this
bonus action attack when you cast a bladetrip as well (green flame/boomong blade), or grabbing some smite spells somehow like by swapping out some subclass spells or with background or race or feat or something.

Seems pretty underwhelming to me in general. Battle cleric in 5e is just a regular cleric who swings an axe a few times per day and uses a bonus action to do it again rather than to do the spiritual weapon attack like a life cleric. After the first few levels, it doesn't look to be meaningfully better than a life cleric at hitting things with sticks. It just uses different actions to do it. The bread and butter of either cleric is still going to be flame strike, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians and things like that.

There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to play and for all I know, it could be very effective in 5e, but it's definitely not how the cleric in question acted in game. Str 20, wis 14 would still be a terrible cleric--even for a war cleric. On the other hand, if you move the Wis to cha, it makes a passable paladin (single or multi classed) who would play a lot more similarly to the way the character played in Pathfinder.

[Kane0]

Seems pretty underwhelming to me in general. Battle cleric in 5e is just a regular cleric who swings an axe a few times per day and uses a bonus action to do it again rather than to do the spiritual weapon attack like a life cleric. After the first few levels, it doesn't look to be meaningfully better than a life cleric at hitting things with sticks. It just uses different actions to do it. The bread and butter of either cleric is still going to be flame strike, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians and things like that.

There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to play and for all I know, it could be very effective in 5e, but it's definitely not how the cleric in question acted in game. Str 20, wis 14 would still be a terrible cleric--even for a war cleric. On the other hand, if you move the Wis to cha, it makes a passable paladin (single or multi classed) who would play a lot more similarly to the way the character played in Pathfinder.

If you want to specifically play a Cleric that hits things with a sword, there are options.

Arcana gets you native access to Green Flame Blade and/or Booming Blade cantrips which are basically the caster's answer to Extra Attack, and you can use the optional Blessed Strikes replacement at level 8
Death gets you a good 'smite' with your Channel that improves with the level 6 and 8 features, and none of it cares about your Wisdom plus stacks with the above bladetrips if you get them another way
Life gives you heavy armor proficiency and doesnt care about how high your Wisdom score is, but doesn't improve your weapon use all unless you take Blessed Strikes
War gives you the weapon and armor proficiencies plus the bonus action attack and Divine Strike but also the nigh guaranteed hits using your Channel.

Other domains that give you Divine strike are Forge, Nature, Order, Tempest, Trickery and Twilight , most of which also giving heavy armor proficiency also.

Of course, Paladins are naturally more martially focused with Fighting Style, Divine Smite and Extra attack but you pay for that with spellcasting power, even if you are only using it for the occasional buff and heal (there are a lot of options that don't care about your Wisdom, and 5e doesn't give you more slots based on casting score either).

[RogueJK]

I agree that a Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 4 would likely be the best from a purely mechanical/optimization standpoint.

But a Cleric 5/Ranger 5 is another option too for a "weapon-focused cleric". You already stated that you're more of a fighter than a caster. Ranger 5 gets you additional HP, a Fighting Style, Extra Attack, up to 2nd level Ranger spells, and some addition spell slots along with a few lower level Ranger spells, while still allowing you up to 3rd level Cleric spells. And you'd have options to add to your melee damage with abilities like Colossus Slayer and Favored Foe, or spells like Hunter's Mark, Searing Smite, Ensnaring Strike, or Zephyr Strike.

Plus you don't need to have anything to do with the nature-y Ranger spells, skills, or subclass options... You can just be a "martial priest"/"divine fighter" kind of Ranger, rather than a "wilderness stalker"/"animal tamer" kind of Ranger, going with a more generic Ranger subclass like Hunter and taking non-nature-related fighting/healing spells like Searing Smite, Zephyr Strike, Cure Wounds, or Aid as your Ranger spells known. Or reflavor some Ranger spells to better fit your concept, like Hunter's Mark being "Heretic's Bane" with added damage as a blessing from your God, or Ensnaring Strike or Entangle being "Angelic Restraints" with holy spiked chains or shackles instead of grasping vines.

The only real downside is that it requires DEX 13+ to multiclass with Ranger, but this isn't any more MAD than a Paladin/Cleric would be. And unlike a Paladin/Cleric, a Ranger and Cleric's casting stats match (WIS).

Perhaps something like this:
Variant Human Life Cleric 5/Hunter Ranger 5
STR 15
DEX 12+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 13+1
CHA 10
Plate Armor and a Greatsword
Slasher +1 STR (16) at Level 1, +2 STR (18) at Level 4, and Great Weapon Master at Level 8
Defense or Great Weapon Fighting Style
Colossus Slayer

Spell Slots: 4/3/3/1
Ranger 1st Level Spells: Absorb Elements, Zephyr Strike, Hunter's Mark
Ranger 2nd Level Spells: Aid
Cleric Cantrips: Sacred Flame, Guidance, Light
Cleric 1st Level Spells: Bless*, Cure Wounds*, Healing Word, Detect Magic
Cleric 2nd Level Spells: Lesser Restoration*, Spiritual Weapon*, Enhance Ability, Silence
Cleric 3rd Level Spells: Beacon of Hope*, Revivify*, Spirit Guardians, Aura of Vitality, Mass Healing Word

Then just go straight Life Cleric from here. You've already gotten just about everything you'd want from Ranger in the first 5 levels anyway.

[Kane0]

Or Celestial plade pact warlock if you dont feel like paladin.

Edit: what race are you?

[Elder_Basilisk]

Character is human. So human or variant human once he becomes a 5e character.

[Kane0]

OK so here's a quick and easy Variant human Death Cleric:

Str 16 (18 from level 4), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8

Racial bonus feat: Magic Initiate (Wizard: Green Flame Blade and/or Booming Blade plus Shield)
Level 4 ASI: +2 Str
Level 8 ASI: Another +2 Str or your choice of Shield Master, Fighting Initiate (Defense +1 AC or Dueling +2 damage), Martial Adept (Any two that add to initiative, attack or damage). You may also be interested in Lucky, Shield Master or even Mobile if you are intending to use Booming Blade a lot.

You wear half-plate and use a longsword & shield. You can choose to use the sword in two hands for the larger damage die if you want. When you attack you deal 1d8 +Str +1d8 Necrotic damage, plus another 25 twice per short rest that ignores Necrotic damage resistance. Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade adds another +1d8 Fire or Thunder damage plus their secondary benefits respectively. If stuck too far from the enemy just pick a pair to zap with Toll the Dead as you close or take cover. There are still plenty of creatures out there with worse Wisdom saves than your spell DC.

If you're caught taking particularly nasty attacks pop a Shield spell to protect yourself (or your concentration). Other spells you might want to consider are Aid (at the start of the day), Bless (before a fight if you can), Shield of Faith (bonus action cast), Silence (no save), Aura of Vitality (between fights/rests), Lesser/Greater Restoration, Healing Word/Revivify (clutch heals), Summon Celestial (doesn't care about your Wisdom), Guardian of Faith (exists until damage is dealt) and Dispel Magic (upcast if you don't think you will hit the check). Death Ward, False Life and Antilife Shell are solid freebies you get from Domain as well.

If you want something more complicated then we can of course do that, but you are right in assuming that will include Paladin, multiclassing or both.

Edit: Oh, and the usual helpful heads up I always provide for people going from 3.PF to 5e:

- Proficiency bonus is used for skill/ability checks, attacks and saving throws instead of BAB, save progressions and skill points. It's all based off Stat + Proficiency, and the numbers are lower and scale slower. HP and abilities/options are the primary differentiation between low and high levels.
- Due to reduced scaling of basic numbers (skills, attacks, damage, AC) it is expected that low CR creatures remain a threat to higher level parties in significant numbers. This is intended.

- You have a saving throw type for each attribute.
- You can't have a stat higher than 20 by normal means, nor a stat higher than 30 by any means.
- Movement is not an action, and actions can happen between movement. Bonus actions are like swifts, reactions are like immediates. No action can be traded for another type. You can also make one interaction (grab a weapon, open a door, etc) per turn for free.
- Attacking does not impede your ability to move (ie ‘Full Attack’) and you can in fact move between attacks if you have multiple.
- Attacks are classified oddly but they mostly boil down to a combination of [melee or ranged] and [weapon or spell]
- You cannot delay, only ready an action.
- By default only one thing provokes an AoO: Moving out of a creatures reach.
- Learn the advantage / disadvantage mechanic, it replaces 90% of fiddly +1s and -2s.
- Dying works differently. You only die outright when you take damage equal to your max HP in one hit after reaching 0. When reduced to 0 you make saving throws, three successes stabilizes you and 3 failures you die. Taking damage while making death saves counts as one failure.
- Damage resistance, reduction and vulnerability is simplified. It's half damage, doesn't exist (as such) and double damage respectively.

- There are two kinds of rest: short and long. There is expected to be two short rests for every long on average, which is important to maintain balance short rest classes (monk, warlock) against long rest classes (paladin, sorcerer).
- Everybody can heal via hit die, which are spent during short rests.

- Concentration is a thing casters should learn well. Most buff, debuff and control spells need concentration, and you can only concentrate on one thing at a time. You have a chance to lose concentration each time you take damage.
- There are relatively few permanent or near-permanent bonuses/buffs
- All casting is 'spontaneous', as in you don’t put individual spells into slots, you just have a collection of spells available to you and spell slots to fuel them with. Your spells will either be prepared or known based on class.
- High casting stat doesn’t give you additional spell slots, but does affect your spell attack bonus and spell DC (which is the same across all spell levels).
- Spells scale by spell slot rather than by caster level, which makes multiclassing considerably more friendly for casters
- Cantrips are notable now, offering viable damage output based on PC level not caster level
- There is a rule that restricts how many levelled spells you can cast on your turn, but it’s… complicated.

- Levels 1-3 are supposed to go by very quickly, and 4-5 fairly quickly. The majority of PC time is angled to be spent in the level 6-11 range.
- Encounter design and challenge rating is also different. A CR 6 enemy is an easy (little resource expenditure & low chance of falling) challenge for a level 6 party of 4, not an easy challenge for a single level 6 character. You are expected to deal with half a dozen or so medium encounters during an adventuring day, not one or two hard ones.
- Don't use any optional rules to start with. This includes multiclassing and feats.
- The core math of the game does not expect you to get magic items by default. You can play through levels 1 to 20 without seeing a magic item at all, anything you get/give is a bonus.

Golden Rule: Thou shalt not assume to know that which shares a name
Sneak attack works differently. Protection from Evil works differently. Critical hits work differently. Do not skim over things that look familiar because they are almost all different in subtle ways that become very apparent in play.

[Urbanmech]

I think going pure Paladin isn’t so short on healing as it may seem. Lay on Hands at 10th level is 50 hp of healing assigned as you like. Take Inspiring Leader as your starting feat and your daily total “healing” will be set without needing to eat into your spell slots. At 10th level you are just one level away from improved divine smite adding a d8 radiant to all your attacks.

[Yakk]

A war cleric is perfectly good as a front line combatant. Sure, you swing your sword less than a martial. But who cares?

Warcaster+Spirit Guardians is a top tier tactic. You are sticky and put out plenty of damage. You want to be as tough as you can to keep up concentration.

If you want something a bit more unique, dip Paladin 2 for Smite. You lose a single caster level and 1 level of spell access, but now you can convert your melee attacks into serious beatdown. This does require 13 cha as a downside.

You are a threatening front line combatant cleric that is mechanically distinct from martial PCs.