Making Thieves Guild interesting

[gandwarf]

Hi! :redface:
I'm a Dungeon Master obsessed with Thieves, Rogues - but I'm also running this Horror Themed Campaign.
The main thing is that I've done the classic Thieves Guild multiple times. But I wanted to give it a twist, make it interesting - something like Xanathar's Thieves Guild, but of course, unique and different.
The characters are currently being employed by the Myriad (an opposing/rival thieves guild) to sabotage this upcoming Guild, competitors.
Have you ever done something like this in your games?
What's your approach when you use Thieves Guilds on your games?
Do you have any cool stories about a plot involving a Thieves Guild?
:smalltongue:

[Catullus64]

If you're doing a turf war between two criminal factions, it always helps to make them very characterful, and to give them opposing ideas which bring them into conflict.

One side should generally represent the "establishment" sort; they have a fragile understanding with local authorities which allows them to operate & thrive, usually predicated on some ethical or moral line they refuse to cross, and rigorous internal policing of behavior.

The other side should be the up-and-comers; lacking the connections to legitimate society, but with greater popular support, and some factor, like magic, unorthodox tactics, access to a unique resource, or sheer numbers that offsets the institutional advantages of the old-school guild.

Additional interesting divisions here can be ethnic (using fantasy races or intra-racial groupings), supernatural (the playing pieces of greater supernatural powers, like a Mind Flayer vs. a Vampire), or tactical (brute-force smash-and-grabbers, old-school burglary, blackmail and corruption, etc).

I assume for the purposes of this game that the players are all playing morally dubious criminal types. Is that correct?

[loki_ragnarock]

Have you played Balder's Gate II?

[BRC]

A few questions/prompts

1) How does this guild see itself? Does it see itself as a "Noble Court" of sorts, upholding their own version of Law? A trade guild that exists to enrich and support it's members? A revolutionary social movement? A haven for outsiders? Do they work with the nobility, or hate them?

2) How is it organized? Is it a top-down hierarchy, or more of a loose coalition. Do members have codified Authority over one another (Sam must give Big Alice 10% of her takings each month, and Big Alice must approve any jobs Sam takes, in exchange, Big Alice must shelter Sam from the authorities, help her fence her goods, and get Sam out of town if need be)? Is there a single person who is In Charge of the organization.

3) What is the line that the Guild will not let you cross? Does the Guild allow it's members to work as Assassins? Do they allow stealing from temples or beggars?

4) What assets does the Guild Posses that encourage people to join? Are they especially well connected? Do they have access to unique magic?

5) what, besides money, does the Guild care about?

[Elder_Basilisk]

"Thieves guilds" are not made interesting by giving them a secret monstrous leader that people may or may not ever find out about. Thieves guilds should be inherently interesting because they operate on every criminal level between a street gang, the mafia, and a drug cartel. If you want your thieves guild to be lame, make a "thieves guild" with some weird fetishistic monster as a lieutenant. If you want your thieves guild to be interesting, rip off Goodfellas, or any good mob/gangster/caper/revenge movie.

Just think about how it is going to play out and from which side. Payback would be an unsatisfying adventure if you're playing from the guild side. Some crazy dude got ripped off by the guild and he's out for revenge. You have one combat and the movie is over. Yawn. On the other hand, if the adventure setup is, "the thieves guild hung your party out to dry, now it's time to get payback if you have to burn the whole city down to do it," that has some serious potential.

Don't restrict yourself to good movies either. Some mediocre movies have the most adaptation potential. There was a Ben Affleck movie on Netflix a few years ago (Triple Frontier) that would make a great thieves' guild D&D adventure. Planning, fighting, arson, and then a grueling overland trek to escape with the loot is much better suited to D&D than an Ocean's Eleven style story where the swords and fireballs never come out to play.

[Chronos]

Also remember that the members of the Guild are thieves, they think like thieves, and they expect their rivals or opponents to think like thieves, too. Security in a thieves' guild should never consist of things like locks and ordinary traps, that any sufficiently-competent thief can overcome. If you ever encounter a three-inch thick steel door, with a diabolically complicated lock, in a thieves' guild, or a superbly hidden secret door, it's going to lead to a dead end (possibly a literal one, like with a nasty monster sealed away behind it). The real entrance is going to be something completely unobtrusive, like the unlocked fourth door on the left in a long hallway full of boring closets.

[Unoriginal]

Hi! :redface:
I'm a Dungeon Master obsessed with Thieves, Rogues - but I'm also running this Horror Themed Campaign.
The main thing is that I've done the classic Thieves Guild multiple times. But I wanted to give it a twist, make it interesting - something like Xanathar's Thieves Guild, but of course, unique and different.
The characters are currently being employed by the Myriad (an opposing/rival thieves guild) to sabotage this upcoming Guild, competitors.
Have you ever done something like this in your games?
What's your approach when you use Thieves Guilds on your games?
Do you have any cool stories about a plot involving a Thieves Guild?
:smalltongue:

If it's an horror themed campaign, maybe the Thieves' Guild is made of cursed undead?

Thieves who pissed off the wrong entity by stealing, and now they're condemned to always be stealing, even after their death.

[Sorinth]

For me the interesting thieves' guilds are defined by their relationship with some other part of society.

For example maybe the thieves' guild is intertwined with the dominant church, so church officials basically work with thieves in protection rackets, they also sell indulgences, deal in fake relics, etc... Another thieves guild might be comprised mostly of ex-military, so they have influence and connections that allow them to pretty much do what they want so long as they aren't disturbing the elites.

If your looking for a cool "leader" to inspire the rest of the guild then I'd suggest a Lamia. They make great "spider at the center of it's web" pulling strings behind the scene type villains. Also Jackleweres make excellent thieves guild flunkies. You can also lean into the more horror aspects of your campaign by having the Lamia geas "good" people into doing bad things, so the players might kill a "villain" only to find out later that the person was forced to be the "face" of the villainy and were trying to break their curse.

With a Lamia at the head of the guild, it could be the unspoken member of high society, providing decadence and hedonism to the cities noble class while the poor people suffer. And in your example the PCs might be working for the new kids thieves' guild that is made up from the downtrodden and trying to get their share.

[Pooky the Imp]

Regarding the horror theme, sometimes the scariest things are not the many-tentacled nightmares but the horrors closest to home.

Imagine, for example, someone crosses the guild - maybe they're part of a rival guild, maybe they're a member who ratted out another member, maybe they missed a payment or killed a guild member (even in self-defence). Exact reason can be as large or petty as you like.

Now imagine that person's wife comes home one day and finds the skin of her husband hanging in the hallway from a meathook. Not an undead. No magic involved. Just a guy with a sharp knife.

If the party enters the guild at some point, they could even find a whole room stuffed full of missing people. Or, more accurately, their skins. All arranged on either side of a hallway as though on display.

That's probably bad enough all by itself. But now imagine the party actually walks in on it being done to someone (perhaps it's even someone they went there to save). What they realise is that the person was given a drug to keep them paralysed, but not dead. In other words, they can feel every moment as their skin is slowly cut from their body. They aren't even able to scream.

Anyway, you don't need to use that exact idea or anything. My point is merely that focussing on more grounded/realistic (albeit extremely sadistic and ghoulish) punishments for transgressors could work well to integrate them into a horror setting.

[animorte]

- The entire undercity is filled with tunnels, all empty for some unknown reason, at least no reason people are comfortable mentioning.
- At night there is a curfew, especially for Thieves Guild members. Something unknown in great numbers or power lurks about, preventing your typical infiltration tactics.
- All nefarious operations take place above ground and during the day.
- Several members of several factions have been known to seek the advantage of tunnels and night only to turn up suddenly living by the law with no memory of their past or never being seen at all.

[gandwarf]

Also remember that the members of the Guild are thieves, they think like thieves, and they expect their rivals or opponents to think like thieves, too. Security in a thieves' guild should never consist of things like locks and ordinary traps, that any sufficiently-competent thief can overcome. If you ever encounter a three-inch thick steel door, with a diabolically complicated lock, in a thieves' guild, or a superbly hidden secret door, it's going to lead to a dead end (possibly a literal one, like with a nasty monster sealed away behind it). The real entrance is going to be something completely unobtrusive, like the unlocked fourth door on the left in a long hallway full of boring closets.

This is amazing. Thank you for that. :smallredface:

[gandwarf]

If it's an horror themed campaign, maybe the Thieves' Guild is made of cursed undead?

Thieves who pissed off the wrong entity by stealing, and now they're condemned to always be stealing, even after their death.

You made a suggestion that's perfect for the theme. I love it! Thank you so much :smallbiggrin:

[gandwarf]

I assume for the purposes of this game that the players are all playing morally dubious criminal types. Is that correct?

Yes, they're all really shady characters. But it's not an evil campaign - at least not yet. lol



The other side should be the up-and-comers; lacking the connections to legitimate society, but with greater popular support, and some factor, like magic, unorthodox tactics, access to a unique resource, or sheer numbers that offsets the institutional advantages of the old-school guild.

I really appreciate this perspective. The Myriad is a well organized and connect guild. I'll definitely make the opposing guild act as a big deal, they're reckless and are calling too much attention to crime - which is causing problems to all criminals within the city.

[Lunali]

My basis for a thieves' guild is typically the guild from Discworld's Ankh-Morpork. I don't take it as far as in the books, but the role of the thieves' guild is typically to make sure criminal activity is managed so that no one is impacted enough to be motivated to hunt down the thieves' guild. The guild typically has some connection to the rulers, not in a control sense but more the rulers know about them and allow them to exist on the premise that they might some day need to make use of the guild to escape a change of ruler. While members of the guild will vary, the guild as a whole operates as lawful evil, planning far in the future and honoring any deals they make while always looking out for their own interests over everyone else's.

[gandwarf]

My basis for a thieves' guild is typically the guild from Discworld's Ankh-Morpork. I don't take it as far as in the books, but the role of the thieves' guild is typically to make sure criminal activity is managed so that no one is impacted enough to be motivated to hunt down the thieves' guild. The guild typically has some connection to the rulers, not in a control sense but more the rulers know about them and allow them to exist on the premise that they might some day need to make use of the guild to escape a change of ruler. While members of the guild will vary, the guild as a whole operates as lawful evil, planning far in the future and honoring any deals they make while always looking out for their own interests over everyone else's.

Thank you for that! I'm going to make the Myriad be a criminal syndicate, much like you mentioned here, they'll "manage" the criminal activities in the city. The opposing guild (which I'm having trouble naming, but I'll get there eventually) is a problem exactly because they are calling too much attention to the criminals, they want everyone to know them and they don't care about the consequences of their actions (very chaotic). The main issue is that the Crowns Guard is reacting with repressive policies and that's interfering with the Myriad "business"