Cleric dip on an Artificer?

[Sir-Carlos]

I am building a Battlesmith Artificer and I am considering a Cleric dip for RP reasons. The campaign will go to level 13 or so. We start on level 3. We are using the standard array, so I will probably have 13 max in Wisdom. If I do this, how many Cleric levels should I take? And of which Domain? Or is this a bad idea and I will weaken my character significantly if I do this?

[nickl_2000]

If it's for RP reasons, I don't see any reason why not to do it. It can provide you with some more options without damaging to much, there are some nice things you can get from it. Healing word isn't an artificer spell, so getting access to that is very nice. I wouldn't bother going more than 1 level though.

As for Domains:
-Forge certainly makes to most sense for a Battlesmith from an RP perspective and that +1 to armor is helpful
-Life boosts your healing spells to make up for your low wisdom.
-Knowledge gives 2 more skills and expertise in them
-Arcana gives you more utility cantrips.

If it were me I would dip into Forge because its fittings, it's fun, and it makes a tanky character even more tanky.

[diplomancer]

I am building a Battlesmith Artificer and I am considering a Cleric dip for RP reasons. The campaign will go to level 13 or so. We start on level 3. We are using the standard array, so I will probably have 13 max in Wisdom. If I do this, how many Cleric levels should I take? And of which Domain? Or is this a bad idea and I will weaken my character significantly if I do this?

Getting a Cleric dip pretty much never weakens any character significantly. The 13 Wis is a cost, but it still pays, specially if you manage to get Res (wis) later. Now you have pretty good Wis saves, which is quite important starting already in tier 2.

Now, on how many levels... unless you want some specific 2nd level spells, I would go either only to level 1 or up to level 2, depending on the Domain.

Which brings us to:
With Standard Array, I'd say the line-up of stats you want to begin with is 16 Int, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Wis, 10 and 8 for Str and Cha. You should not start with Cleric, because you want to have Con save proficiencies, and raise your Wis later with Resilient (Wis). Which means that you are pretty much stuck with not having medium armor proficiency at level 1, which means that it's strongly advisable not to switch Str and Dex on the above array. Which, finally, means that, unless you're planning on playing a dwarf, getting Heavy Armor proficiency is almost irrelevant, so I will not consider it when evaluating the Cleric options.

With that in mind, the Tasha's domains are overpowered. Twilight is not too powerful as a dip, but still very good, while Peace is probably the most powerful dip, that keeps scaling as you level up since it follows the "proficiency/LR" new model. Forge Domain is thematic, and basically gives you one extra infusion, though unlike your "+" infusions, it does not improve at level 10. But I think my favourite domain for an Artificer is definitely Knowledge. In a game where knowledge checks matter, having that ability on an Int-SAD character is very nice. Identify is also a very artificery spell, and you'll have it always prepared. If you go to 2nd level, the Channel Divinity works very well with Tool Expertise, but even making an ability check with a tool that's not thieves' tools is very DM dependant. If your DM is one that likes encouraging that sort of thing, though, it becomes a very good combination. Make the Bard cry when you suddenly learn how to play an instrument much better than he has ever played despite his years of study!

[MoiMagnus]

A cleric dip is great if you can afford an heavy armour, Artificers tend to dump strength (up until level 10 where they can take a strength item) so that's not really an option.

A dip in any class in clearly annoying before level 5, as it delays your extra attack.

Admittedly, dipping into the domain of the Forge give you a free pseudo-infusion, while dipping in the domain for Twilight gives you (or another) advantage to initiative rolls, or dipping in the domain of Peace gives a +d4 to almost everything to your team, and dipping in Knowledge gives two expertise in skills. So a lot of them are reasonably interesting, you just have to look for those who don't depends on your cleric level or on you Wisdom.

Additionally, if you GM allows Tasha's "optional" features, you can even consider eventually taking a second level in Cleric. Indeed, "Harness Divine Power" is a nice power boost for half-casters like the Artificer.

In the end, unless you're on a "high optimisation" table where you can't afford to be suboptimal, I think you'll have some fun by dipping into cleric. The level 5 might be a little annoying, but before and after should be fine.

[stoutstien]

Assuming you don't want to increase Wis I'd say peace, knowledge, forge, and arcana all have enough going for them as a 1-2 lv dip to be worth it on a battlesmith.
I'm partial to knowledge. Expertise in two skills, a floating Prof at lv 2, a decent domain list, and has no real Wis focused features. Lots of interesting deities that would cover this and the artificer as a whole so it's a seamless match.

[Pildion]

I am building a Battlesmith Artificer and I am considering a Cleric dip for RP reasons. The campaign will go to level 13 or so. We start on level 3. We are using the standard array, so I will probably have 13 max in Wisdom. If I do this, how many Cleric levels should I take? And of which Domain? Or is this a bad idea and I will weaken my character significantly if I do this?

Artificer has the best capstone hands down, so for a full 20 levels I would never multiclass one, but your only going to about 13. The 13 is Wis is really going to hurt, your Battle Smith needs 14 Dex, 16 Con and 16 Int, so what are you dumping for that 13 Wis? Remember any spells you get will be cast with Wis, so they really would need to be heals\buffs.

This will push back getting multi attack if you do this before level 5 and even after that what spells\abilities are you looking to even pick up with this? Twilight Sanctuary? Path to the Grave? I really don't think this is a good mix, even from an RP stand point, I'm guessing you'd be worshiping Gond?

[diplomancer]

I'd like to second some advice that's been given here. Don't dip before level 5 if you can avoid it (and since the dip is mostly for flavour and you've already got good armor proficiencies, you CAN afford it). Of all the levels, this is the one with the greatest relative increase for any class. You could get by with booming blade at level 5, but not only is that suboptimal, you're also stuck with only 1st level spells.

One thing I've just realized; if you dip at CL8 (so you're an Artificer 7, Cleric 1), you get to have 3rd level slots one level in advance than you'd otherwise have if you went straight class; and this relation holds for spell levels 4 and 5 as well; interesting...

[Silpharon]

Funny, I'm at level 5 on my Armorer and decided to take my next level as Forge Cleric. I think a cleric dip in general is useful for Healing Word, Bless, and extra cantrips (like Guidance and Mending so you can focus on Int cantrips on Artificer).

As for domain, I'd say Forge, Peace, Life, or Twilight make easy dips. Knowledge, Arcana, or Nature if you prefer picking up skills.

Unless you had something specific in mind, I wouldn't bother with level 2 in Cleric.

[nickl_2000]

I'd like to second some advice that's been given here. Don't dip before level 5 if you can avoid it (and since the dip is mostly for flavour and you've already got good armor proficiencies, you CAN afford it). Of all the levels, this is the one with the greatest relative increase for any class. You could get by with booming blade at level 5, but not only is that suboptimal, you're also stuck with only 1st level spells.

One thing I've just realized; if you dip at CL8 (so you're an Artificer 7, Cleric 1), you get to have 3rd level slots one level in advance than you'd otherwise have if you went straight class; and this relation holds for spell levels 4 and 5 as well; interesting...

I don't know, if you are starting level 3 I could see the argument for taking Cleric 1 within the first three levels. That allows you to get the strength needed for full plate immediately and not invest in Dex as part of the standard array.

[diplomancer]

I don't know, if you are starting level 3 I could see the argument for taking Cleric 1 within the first three levels. That allows you to get the strength needed for full plate immediately and not invest in Dex as part of the standard array.

True, if you're starting from level 3 it might be worth it. Though with the Standard Array, unless you get a Half-Elf with Tasha's adjustable ASIs (or mountain dwarf, but they don't need the Str in the first place), you can't get 15 Str without sacrificing your Con even more than you already had.

Someone said above the Battlesmith artificer NEEDS 16 Con; I wouldn't go that far, I think 14 is sufficient for most classes. But I wouldn't like to go lower than 14, which reminds me:


The 13 is Wis is really going to hurt, your Battle Smith needs 14 Dex, 16 Con and 16 Int, so what are you dumping for that 13 Wis? Remember any spells you get will be cast with Wis, so they really would need to be heals\buffs.

Unless you're playing a Tasha's adjusted Half-Elf, it's impossible to get 14 Dex, 16 Con and 16 Int with the Standard Array. So I find it unlikely that those stats really need to be like this. In fact, if you think that 16 in Int and Con are needed, you're probably best playing a Dwarf (either Tasha's adjusted or Mark of Warding) and get one level of Cleric, but now you need a domain with the heavy armour. Start with Str 10, Dex 12, Cha 8, and hope to survive to level 4 (BattleSmith 3, Cleric 1)

[RogueJK]

True, if you're starting from level 3 it might be worth it. Though with the Standard Array, unless you get a Half-Elf with Tasha's adjustable ASIs (or mountain dwarf, but they don't need the Str in the first place), you can't get 15 Str without sacrificing your Con even more than you already had.

There are other ways to mitigate the speed penalty of wearing Heavy Armor with a sub-15 STR... A Centaur with Heavy Armor and sub-15 STR still has a movement speed of 30. Or, a Dwarf, Dhampir, Satyr, or Wood Elf with Heavy Armor and sub-15 STR still has a movement speed of 25.

Similarly, a Small Custom Lineage taking the Squat Nimbleness feat (also a STR/DEX half-feat) at Level 1 still has a movement speed of 25 while wearing Heavy Armor with sub-15 STR. Or a Variant Human/Custom Lineage taking the Mobile feat at Level 1 has a movement speed of 30 while wearing Heavy Armor with sub-15 STR.


These are all potentially viable race options when you're building a PC that you want to use Heavy Armor but there's no other reason besides the armor to justify investing in STR. Folks tend to fixate on Dwarves in these situations, yet sometimes overlook all the other options with the same or better speed.

[diplomancer]

You could theoretically go with something like this, if you were dead-set on going with Heavy Armor and wanted to eliminate the speed penalty.

STR 14+1
DEX 8
CON 12+2
INT 15
WIS 13
CHA 10

Or, there are other ways to mitigate the speed penalty of wearing Heavy Armor with a sub-15 STR... A Centaur with Heavy Armor and sub-15 STR still has a movement speed of 30. Or, a Dwarf, Dhampir, Satyr, or Wood Elf with Heavy Armor and sub-15 STR still has a movement speed of 25.

True, but my main point is; with Standard Array, the 13 Wis does not come with any significant drawback; you can't really afford 15 Str, nor can you start with 16 Int and Con and 14 Dex.

[Pildion]

Unless you're playing a Tasha's adjusted Half-Elf, it's impossible to get 14 Dex, 16 Con and 16 Int with the Standard Array. So I find it unlikely that those stats really need to be like this. In fact, if you think that 16 in Int and Con are needed, you're probably best playing a Dwarf (either Tasha's adjusted or Mark of Warding) and get one level of Cleric, but now you need a domain with the heavy armour. Start with Str 10, Dex 12, Cha 8, and hope to survive to level 4 (BattleSmith 3, Cleric 1)

I didn't see that they were starting with Standard Array, I almost always use point buy, my mistake. I still believe that a Battle Smith should have 16 Con though, they are front line fighters and only have a d8 hit die.

[diplomancer]

I didn't see that they were starting with Standard Array, I almost always use point buy, my mistake. I still believe that a Battle Smith should have 16 Con though, they are front line fighters and only have a d8 hit die.

They also have better AC than most frontline fighters, because of Shield, and a pet that helps them tank. Having 16 Con is nice, obviously, but not necessary. (And as I said, if it WERE necessary, the best way to go about it would be to go Dwarf with Heavy Armor and get a dip that gives them Heavy Armor proficiency, so a Cleric dip would still be worth it)

[stoutstien]

The difference between 14 and 16 Con isn't that noticable and not having a positive Wis modifier is. Don't forget if you do want to wear H armor the extra speed some races get have the same net results as the dwarf.

[diplomancer]

The difference between 14 and 16 Con isn't that noticable and not having a positive Wis modifier is. Don't forget if you do want to wear H armor the extra speed some races get have the same net results as the dwarf.

While this is true, I'm not sure if it's worth it. Dwarves (and the other small races in the PHB) were designed with a small speed, and, hopefully, that was taken into account when balancing them. Likewise with the fast races. So I feel that going from 35' to 25' speed is worse than just starting with 25' speed.

[stoutstien]

While this is true, I'm not sure if it's worth it. Dwarves (and the other small races in the PHB) were designed with a small speed, and, hopefully, that was taken into account when balancing them. Likewise with the fast races. So I feel that going from 35' to 25' speed is worse than just starting with 25' speed.
Depends on what you are after really. I don't think heavy armor is worth it with most PCs unless you happen to find something interesting.

[JLandan]

I agree that a dip in Cleric would be fine. But which domain really depends on your RP reasons for taking the dip. What are your reasons? Pick a domain that goes with the reasons. There is a wide enough variety to go with nearly any reason.

PS. If the dip is for RP reasons, don't decide by optimization, decide by character fit.

[diplomancer]

Depends on what you are after really. I don't think heavy armor is worth it with most PCs unless you happen to find something interesting.

I agree! I was just thinking "how to build a functional character with Standard Array that starts with 16 Con, 16 Int, and 14 Dex"

The only answer to that question is: play a Tasha's Half-Elf. So if you want to start with 16 Con and Int, and don't want to be a Half-Elf (or your DM does not allow Tasha's adjustable ASIs), you will either have to sacrifice one point of AC and start with 12 Dex, or get Heavy Armor proficiency and deal somehow with the Str penalty, as you can't afford 15 str either. And then I realized that the one "pre-Tasha's" character who could hit all parameters was a Mark of Warding Dwarf with a Cleric dip, or any Dwarf with the Tasha's rules.

[Keravath]

....
Which brings us to:
With Standard Array, I'd say the line-up of stats you want to begin with is 16 Int, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Wis, 10 and 8 for Str and Cha. You should not start with Cleric, because you want to have Con save proficiencies, and raise your Wis later with Resilient (Wis). Which means that you are pretty much stuck with not having medium armor proficiency at level 1, which means that it's strongly advisable not to switch Str and Dex on the above array. Which, finally, means that, unless you're planning on playing a dwarf, getting Heavy Armor proficiency is almost irrelevant, so I will not consider it when evaluating the Cleric options.
...


I think you meant to say heavy armor rather than medium. Artificers all start with proficiency in light and medium armor and shields.

[diplomancer]

I think you meant to say heavy armor rather than medium. Artificers all start with proficiency in light and medium armor and shields.

Yes, that's what I meant, thanks!

[Keravath]

A dip in cleric is fine for role play reasons. :) It is the point of the game and one level isn't going to make your character really any worse at the other things they do.

In terms of clerics there are a lot of good choices depending on which abilities you want. However, keep in mind that the forge cleric +1 can only be applied to a suit of armor or a weapon and once that it is done, it is a magic item. This means that you can't use an infusion on the same item at the same time. Forge cleric though is a good thematic fit for an Artificer.

[RogueJK]

I don't think heavy armor is worth it with most PCs unless you happen to find something interesting.

It can be on characters with access to alternate attack stats, since it means you don't have to invest in either STR or DEX for AC or attacks, provided you have a racial means to mitigate the Heavy Armor speed penalty as I described in my earlier post.

Something like a Hexadin, or an Armorer or Battle Smith Artificer, or a Shillelagh-using PAMurai, or a Nature Cleric (or really any Cleric with Magic Initiate Druid) could be a good candidate for Heavy Armor.

[stoutstien]

It can be on characters with access to alternate attack stats, since it means you don't have to invest in either STR or DEX for AC or attacks, provided you have a racial means to mitigate the Heavy Armor speed penalty as I described in my earlier post.

Something like a Hexblade, or an Armorer or Battle Smith Artificer, or a Shillelagh-using Samurai, or a Nature Cleric (or really any Cleric with Magic Initiate Druid) could be a good candidate for Heavy Armor.

Last I counted there was 14 or so core concepts that can leverage H armor compared to the 100s that can use medium/light. It takes a lot of planning to tank dex that way without it biting you. Of course this doesn't include RP choices to have a certain array.

With the battle Smith artificer you can eventually wear it, with proficiency from a dip, once you have the stat infusions up but even then thats facing stiff competition for known/active. Like I said if you happen to find addy plate or something else that has an interesting impact you can make it work.