Pretty scared about going fighter and fixation with optimization

[Entessa]

Sentinel
Great weapon master (I would have avoided going this one if I was paladin)
Polearm master
resilient: wisdom

Subclass: battlemaster.
Style: tunnel fighter

Stats: 20 14 16 11 17 9

My issue is the following: I feel like I have to force myself to optimize the fighter to the best because the impact I have to help the party is basically: Do damage, soak damage. This is the issue I have towards the class. I played a paladin and the +5 on saving throws is actually insane. The ability to burst is insane too. For Fighter I have none of this - that's why I truly hope my DM will accept the feats and the style above simply to make the experience for the party to actually have a fighter on team enjoyable.

[Sparky McDibben]

1) Sounds like you're pigeonholing yourself into accepting a fairly limited role. I've found it's a challenge, but try thinking about how you can contribute to exploration and social encounters, too.

2) Is this the table culture that's driving you to think you have to carry the team in combat?

3) What will happen to the other characters' fun if, when initiative is rolled, you're tearing apart bad guys so effectively that all they're doing is holding your coat?

Build looks like a beast, though!

[solidork]

If you wanted to, you could take your very high wisdom and diversify past just being a damage machine and be the person who is best at perception/insight. Take Skill Expert or Observant, I had a lot of fun playing a fighter build that specialized in that way.

You're also majorly loading up on very similar BA and Reaction abilities. Like yeah, you're pretty much guaranteed to get to use your reaction to attack but it might be overkill, you know?

[Frogreaver]

Sentinel
Great weapon master (I would have avoided going this one if I was paladin)
Polearm master
resilient: wisdom

Subclass: battlemaster.
Style: tunnel fighter

Stats: 20 14 16 11 17 9

My issue is the following: I feel like I have to force myself to optimize the fighter to the best because the impact I have to help the party is basically: Do damage, soak damage. This is the issue I have towards the class. I played a paladin and the +5 on saving throws is actually insane. The ability to burst is insane too. For Fighter I have none of this - that's why I truly hope my DM will accept the feats and the style above simply to make the experience for the party to actually have a fighter on team enjoyable.

Are those your starting stats?

I think you would be better off replacing GWM with sentinel. With tunnel Fighter + Sentinel + Polearm master OA's + Precision attack will nearly ensure no enemy gets near you (Or any party member you want to protect).

[GooeyChewie]

My issue is the following: I feel like I have to force myself to optimize the fighter to the best because the impact I have to help the party is basically: Do damage, soak damage.

With Sentinel, Polearm Mastery, and Battlemaster subclass, your role in the party also extends to battlefield control. Get close enough to the enemy and you can punish them big time if they move or attack somebody else. You can further your control of the battlefield with maneuvers like Bait and Switch, Goading Attack and Trip Attack.

I always find it fun to have a well-played Fighter on the team. I also find it fun to be the well-played Fighter.

[solidork]

Are those your starting stats?

I think you would be better off replacing GWM with sentinel. With tunnel Fighter + Sentinel + Polearm master OA's + Precision attack will nearly ensure no enemy gets near you (Or any party member you want to protect).

Oh, they DO combine like that. For some reason I thought the reaction attack from PAM wasn't an opportunity attack.

Yeah, I wouldn't let a player in my game use Tunnel Fighter then. It's cheesy as hell.

[Catullus64]

Tunnel Fighter is pretty bonkers ridiculous, and in certain fights it will bust the action economy wide open, especially when combined with Polearm Master. With the right maneuver choices you'll be exerting a pretty effective zone of control in the middle of a fight while still outputting solid damage.

Your DM and the kind of encounters that come up at your table are what matters most. How intense are the tactics and performance required to succeed? Is every encounter something you need to bring your A-game to? Or is there a little slack so you can play around with something you're not sure will be optimal?

But above everything else, your character's personality and your ability to think and act creatively will make your character relevant and fun, regardless of combat contributions.

[strangebloke]

Sentinel
Great weapon master (I would have avoided going this one if I was paladin)
Polearm master
resilient: wisdom

Subclass: battlemaster.
Style: tunnel fighter

Stats: 20 14 16 11 17 9

My issue is the following: I feel like I have to force myself to optimize the fighter to the best because the impact I have to help the party is basically: Do damage, soak damage. This is the issue I have towards the class. I played a paladin and the +5 on saving throws is actually insane. The ability to burst is insane too. For Fighter I have none of this - that's why I truly hope my DM will accept the feats and the style above simply to make the experience for the party to actually have a fighter on team enjoyable.
You're caught in an optimization trap. You want to be powerful and useful, but you're afraid of being seen as "a powergamer" or "an optimizer." In reality, you're not really doing anything that nutty, though depending on the optimization level of your table you might end up being a little disruptive. High damage and summons tend to be disruptive in a way that support abilities aren't.

And you can build for support abilities. As a BM you can be a scout with ambush and skill expert on stealth (or a rogue multiclass). You can be a healer by using a couple ASIs to grab inspiring leader (one of the best feats in the game) or healer. You can use Commanding Presence to be an effective face. You can load up on HAM for cheap and then take a level of warlock for armor of agathys.

Fighters are generally not able to do everything at once, but they can usually succeed at doing a couple things really effectively. I think this is where I'm obligated to share something I made lately (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25419696&postcount=1411). The linked build is insanely strong. High damage and lots of movement and initiative. You can build it as a strength character too if you're willing to exchange the stealth for survivability.

[Unoriginal]

There are maneuvres in the Tasha's that boost ability checks.

You should have the room to select at least one.

[Amechra]

though depending on the optimization level of your table you might end up being a little disruptive

Quoted for truth.

In the last campaign I ran, most people rocked up to the table with decidedly suboptimal characters (the Sorcerer who mostly fought in melee with a scimitar and shield "because I have a 14 Strength and we need a frontliner" was basically the power level of that part of the party), and then we had one guy show up with a Gloomstalker with CBE+Archery FS+SS.

I eventually gave up and cancelled the campaign because designing encounters for that party was an absolute nightmare.

[Mastikator]

Sentinel
Great weapon master (I would have avoided going this one if I was paladin)
Polearm master
resilient: wisdom

Subclass: battlemaster.
Style: tunnel fighter

Stats: 20 14 16 11 17 9

My issue is the following: I feel like I have to force myself to optimize the fighter to the best because the impact I have to help the party is basically: Do damage, soak damage. This is the issue I have towards the class. I played a paladin and the +5 on saving throws is actually insane. The ability to burst is insane too. For Fighter I have none of this - that's why I truly hope my DM will accept the feats and the style above simply to make the experience for the party to actually have a fighter on team enjoyable.

This build is only good if the DM only throws monsters with no reach and only melee attacks, anything high AC, or using spells, or ranged attacks, or is flying and your character goes from strong to useless.

This build is also not very good outside of combat, so anytime there's social interaction or exploration you'll have to rely on your creativity- the same way you would for a 1st level fighter.

[RogueJK]

If you wanted to, you could take your very high wisdom and diversify past just being a damage machine and be the person who is best at perception/insight. Take Skill Expert or Observant.

Exactly. With a Wisdom that high, it's easy to develop some additional party utility besides just "take damage and dish out damage".


If you stick with Battlemaster, consider taking Perception and Insight proficiency, along with the Tactical Assessment maneuver and the Observant feat.


Or, Samurai would be an even better choice than Battlemaster for your subclass since you have such a high WIS. Samurai get additional Persuasion proficiency and add +WIS to Persuasion checks, so out of combat you can be the Party Face with a high Insight and Persuasion bonus, along with a high Perception bonus to notice things. You'd just want to swap around your INT and CHA scores so you no longer have a CHA penalty dragging down your Persuasion bonus. Plus, Samurai already get WIS save proficiency as a subclass ability at Level 7, so that frees up a feat for something like Observant (+1 WIS), Chef (+1 WIS), or Skill Expert Perception/Persuasion (+1 WIS) instead. In addition, Fighting Spirit's Advantage helps counter your GWM penalty. You can BA Fighting Spirit + Action Surge, for double the number of attacks in a round all with Advantage to counteract GWM's penalty.

Something like:

Subclass: Samurai
Style: tunnel fighter
Stats: 20 14 16 9 17 11

Sentinel
Great weapon master
Polearm master
Skill Expert Persuasion (+1 WIS)

Fighter Skill Proficiency: Insight, Perception
Background Skill Proficiency: Athletics, Stealth
Samurai Proficiency: Persuasion


Alternatively, if your stats aren't set in stone, you could swap the INT and WIS scores around and be a "Warrior Scholar" Battlemaster with several INT skills and the Tactical Assessment maneuver. Something like:

Subclass: Battlemaster
Style: tunnel fighter
Stats: 20 14 16 17 11 9

Sentinel
Great weapon master
Polearm master
Observant (+1 INT or WIS) or Keen Mind (+1 INT)

Fighter Skill Proficiency: History and Perception
Background Skill Proficiency: Investigation and one of Religion/Arcana/Nature

Then take a level of Rogue after Battlemaster 6, for an additional INT skill proficiency in Religion/Arcana/Nature, and Expertise in both Investigation and Perception.

You're now Robert Downey Jr. as Sherlock Holmes, the highly observant, tactically-minded, genius fighter who knows everything and notices everything.

https://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5v68bHgtL1qiu1tyo5_250.gif

[Kessel]

That Wisdom score is too lovely not to consider dipping 1-2 levels in Druid or Cleric. It would diversify your skills, and if you go Peace or Twilight you would be buffering your party as when you played your Paladin. And the ranged cantrips would be a plus.

[Unoriginal]

That Wisdom score is too lovely not to consider dipping 1-2 levels in Druid or Cleric. It would diversify your skills, and if you go Peace or Twilight you would be buffering your party as when you played your Paladin. And the ranged cantrips would be a plus.

Ranger would also make for a very nice multiclass, although I would recommend 3 levels for the subclass benefits.

Fey Wanderer, for example.

[Kessel]

Ranger would also make for a very nice multiclass, although I would recommend 3 levels for the subclass benefits.

Fey Wanderer, for example.

Fey Wanderer is awesome.

[ender241]

Alternatively, if you wanted to stay a straight-classed fighter but pick up some utility/versatility, you could take magic initiate (druid or cleric) to get a ranged cantrip, maybe a utility cantrip, and whatever 1st level spell appeals most to you (healing, utility, even damage/control with your high Wis).

Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, and Telepathic would also open up some options as well, and let you even out the Wis at the same time.

[Frogreaver]

This build is only good if the DM only throws monsters with no reach and only melee attacks, anything high AC, or using spells, or ranged attacks, or is flying and your character goes from strong to useless.

This build is also not very good outside of combat, so anytime there's social interaction or exploration you'll have to rely on your creativity- the same way you would for a 1st level fighter.

I think you mean the build is good as long as the dm throws some enemies at you with no reach or ranged attacks.

I think we could also go a bit further and say the build is good as long as enemies ranged attacks are sufficiently inferior to their melee attacks.

In any event you still take up a lot of space making it difficult for enemies to get near your Allies because of your reach, PAM and sentinel.

As long as you aren’t solely fighting ranged enemies you have alot to offer in most situations.

[Keravath]

Quoted for truth.

In the last campaign I ran, most people rocked up to the table with decidedly suboptimal characters (the Sorcerer who mostly fought in melee with a scimitar and shield "because I have a 14 Strength and we need a frontliner" was basically the power level of that part of the party), and then we had one guy show up with a Gloomstalker with CBE+Archery FS+SS.

I eventually gave up and cancelled the campaign because designing encounters for that party was an absolute nightmare.

If the players were decent folks then a brief chat with the gloomstalker player and some changes to make a more diverse and less optimized character might have gone a long way.

On the other hand, building encounters that challenge the party with this character in it are just going to prove the worth of the character to the player and the rest of the party since it becomes clear the party couldn't survive these challenges without that character. Sometimes this might mean more encounters with spell casters as well as social or urban encounters that might play to the strengths of some of the other characters.

[Amechra]

If the players were decent folks then a brief chat with the gloomstalker player and some changes to make a more diverse and less optimized character might have gone a long way.

On the other hand, building encounters that challenge the party with this character in it are just going to prove the worth of the character to the player and the rest of the party since it becomes clear the party couldn't survive these challenges without that character. Sometimes this might mean more encounters with spell casters as well as social or urban encounters that might play to the strengths of some of the other characters.

Alas, this was at a public table at the local game store, so they were not all decent folks.

[Leon]

Play and enjoy your choice of class and throw the silly DPR expectations out the window

[Entessa]

Guys, thanks to each one of you. I think that by optimizing this much I probably would be a beast in combat, but I would lose the RP aspect because I was too fixated on optimizing. Beside,I feel like the build I've done would be hated by the DM and I'm pretty sure that I shouldn't step over his toes in such a way (reference to Amechra)

In the end, I thought about going samurai. I still would like to be a force to be reckoned with. Fighting Spirit uses a bonus action, which competes with bonus action strikes from PAM, so I'm not going to take PAM. I will save the build above for a Battlemaster.

strangebloke, your build is interesting, but the issue is that I have already issues on roleplaying simple humans, imagine another race.


I'm going for samurai now (hoping that I won't regret not taking paladin).


In reality, each one of you has provided the insight to help me make a new informed decision. Now my thoughts are the following:

1) I have to ask to Mastikator some good feats to avoid issues with "anything high AC, or using spells, or ranged attacks, or is flying".

2) RogueJk, thanks for providing these two builds. If I asked you for some roleplay based builds, what would you go for?

3) Am I wrong or I could go shield mastery and by taking this feat, I'm making resilient: des redundant? I feel like I would fall once again into the issue of bonus action competing with each other. I would like to avoid having to remember too many things at once (I know champion could be perfect for that, but I feel like I don't have any impact on it).

4) If I went GWM, Sentinel, Observant, Alert/keen mind/skill master: persuasion or mobile I feel like I could probably get some fun with my samurai. Note: for the style, I could go tunnel fighter or Blindfight.

[RogueJK]

In the end, I thought about going samurai. I still would like to be a force to be reckoned with. Fighting Spirit uses a bonus action, which competes with bonus action strikes from PAM, so I'm not going to take PAM.

I'd still recommend taking PAM. You can only use Fighting Spirit 3x/day. It's a "once every few combats" nova ability, not an "every turn" ability. As a result, there's not much competition with PAM's BA, which can be used every round.

So you'd use your BA for Fighting Spirit in one round in every 2-3 combats (typically pairing it with Action Surge to double the number of Advantaged attacks). But you'd then still use your BA for PAM in every other round of combat.


RogueJk, thanks for providing these two builds. If I asked you for some roleplay based builds, what would you go for?

Any build can be a "roleplaying build". It appears you may be in the mindset that effective combat mechanics and roleplaying opportunities are mutually exclusive (commonly known as "The Stormwind Fallacy"). This is certainly not true. You can have an optimized combatant that also has excellent out of combat utility along with a deep backstory and characterization that allows for in-depth roleplaying.

Even the two builds I posted above both present excellent roleplaying opportunities in addition to their excellent abilities both in and out of combat...

You have the Wise Warrior Diplomat (high WIS Samurai), who could be a peace-loving wandering ronin who uses his deep wisdom to mediate disputes and persuade people to avoid combat when possible, but when combat comes, he's absolutely deadly to his enemies. "If you want peace, prepare for war... For it is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war."

Then you have the Genius Warrior Scholar (high INT Battlemaster), who knows everything and notices everything. He's constantly analyzing his surroundings and his enemies, calculating what he can use to his advantage, making him a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. When he's not fighting, he's a master investigator with a deep academic knowledge base. Perhaps he's a bounty hunter, or investigator working for the King, or just someone who seeks to use his genius-level intelligence to make the world a better place. Or maybe he just gets bored easily, and travels the world as an adventurer to constantly challenge his mind with new and exciting puzzles and opportunities.

[Keravath]

If you take PAM - it gives you a choice between using a quarterstaff/spear with a shield and wielding a two handed reach weapon like glaive or halberd. Both could work fine thematically with a trained weapon master like a Samurai class fighter might be framed to be.

It also gives you the flexibility to switch up your combat style depending on the others in the party and what the party needs without being "over-optimized".

If you go the shield + PAM route you could also pick up shield master for a bit of control in combat.

I would not take resilient dex. A fighter needs resilient wisdom far more in my opinion. They have enough hit points that missed dex saves won't typically be a disaster, while a missed wisdom save could result in charm/confusion/hypnotized/dominated/fear.

If you go with the 1 handed PAM version you can also pick up the dueling fighting style.

I'd ask your DM about tunnel fighter before planning on taking it. Allowing unlimited op attacks without the use of a reaction is broken and your DM may say no.

With your high wisdom, I would definitely suggest a level of druid or cleric along with perhaps the fey touched feat to round it up to 18 - this gives you some spells to augment your abilities. In particular, having another character with an emergency healing word available is never a bad thing.

[RogueJK]

I would not take resilient dex. A fighter needs resilient wisdom far more in my opinion. They have enough hit points that missed dex saves won't typically be a disaster, while a missed wisdom save could result in charm/confusion/hypnotized/dominated/fear.

Samurai already get WIS save proficiency as a Level 7 subclass ability, so that could potentially allow for an alternate feat like Resilient DEX, if you really wanted that.

But in this particular case, with a 14 DEX, you won't get as much out of the feat since the +1 to DEX won't gain you anything.

[Frogreaver]

I'd still recommend taking PAM. You can only use Fighting Spirit 3x/day. It's a "once every few combats" nova ability, not an "every turn" ability. As a result, there's not much competition with PAM's BA, which can be used every round.

So you'd use your BA for Fighting Spirit in one round in every 2-3 combats (typically pairing it with Action Surge to double the number of Advantaged attacks). But you'd then still use your BA for PAM in every other round of combat.

IMO, GWM is comparable to PAM for Samauri damage. I guess PAM does leave open the use of a shield and spear which is probably the better build anyways.


Any build can be a "roleplaying build". It appears you may be in the mindset that effective combat mechanics and roleplaying opportunities are mutually exclusive (commonly known as "The Stormwind Fallacy"). This is certainly not true. You can have an optimized combatant that also has excellent out of combat utility along with a deep backstory and characterization that allows for in-depth roleplaying.

Even the two builds I posted above both present excellent roleplaying opportunities in addition to their excellent abilities both in and out of combat...

I will roleplay characters better that I enjoy roleplaying, and while it's not universally true, I often find characters I would enjoy roleplaying don't typically align with the most optimized characters. So while not universally true in every circumstance, I think there's a bit of wisdom in understanding that character build and roleplaying can be opposed for individuals.


Samurai already get WIS save proficiency as a Level 7 subclass ability, so that could potentially allow for an alternate feat like Resilient DEX, if you really wanted that.

But in this particular case, with a 14 DEX, you won't get as much out of the feat since the +1 to DEX won't gain you anything.

Shield Master would be the better option for dex saves IMO. It gives your shield AC bonus to dex saves. It also let's you take no damage when you would take half from dex saves.

[Entessa]

Thanks to you three. I have to be honest, the two class that RogueJk wrote are the one I'm going to play. I will be playing Battlemaster too in the future, but I have to ask a few things:

1) Solidork wrote: Take Skill Expert or Observant, I had a lot of fun playing a fighter build that specialized in that way, while talking about Battlemaster. My issue is the following: what do you all mean when you talk about being perceptive? Does the perception you talk about refer to story stuff (you can investigate places), combat (you can capitalize on perception), or something else?


2) Guys suggesting Fey Wanderer or druid/cleric dips (such as Kessel) or Fey touched (Ender241), I'm not ignoring you - the fact is that these feats should come from background and it's a little hard for me to tell my DM that I have a fey ancestry or magic affinity (I have to justify it).

3) RogueJk, for the high int battlemaster, how would you face the issue of low WIS? I feel like I would be pretty much impaired by every fight if the DM wanted to get a bit of fun on me. Especially because even fear would mean that I'm out of games for a bit.

4) I discovered that my DM approves the intimidation using the STR score. So I could actually go (for battlemaster) from
Stats: 20 14 16 17 11 9
to
20 10 16 17 15 9
and still be a good int battle master with some wis, don't you think? The issue would be then to decide if improving int or wis. Oh well.