Spores Druid Questions

[sayaijin]

I have a player who picked Spores Druid for the flavor of a necromantic nature lover - think death is a natural part of life / Golgari kind of character.

Looking at the subclass it seems kinda lackluster compared to others. I had some ideas of giving it some more mileage, but I was curious first if anyone else has run one in a game and felt it underperformed, and second if these fixes are overpowered/unnecessary.


Improvement 1 Halo of Spores:
Halo of Spores
Starting at 2nd level, you are surrounded by invisible, necrotic spores that are harmless until you unleash them on a creature nearby. When a creature you can see moves into a space within 10 feet of you or starts its turn there, you can use your reaction to deal 1d4 necrotic damage to that creature unless it succeeds on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. The necrotic damage increases to 1d6 at 6th level, 1d8 at 10th level, and 1d10 at 14th level.I don't see why this feature requires a reaction. At level 6, it competes with Fungal Infestation, and when you throw it with the level 10 feature, there's no reaction required. What if we just remove the reaction from this feature?


Improvement 2 Fungal Infestation:
Fungal Infestation
At 6th level, your spores gain the ability to infest a corpse and animate it. If a beast or a humanoid that is Small or Medium dies within 10 feet of you, you can use your reaction to animate it, causing it to stand up immediately with 1 hit point. The creature uses the Zombie stat block in the Monster Manual. It remains animate for 1 hour, after which time it collapses and dies.

In combat, the zombie's turn comes immediately after yours. It obeys your mental commands, and the only action it can take is the Attack action, making one melee attack.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.What if this feature allowed you to just use the resurrected monster stat block instead of just a zombie? Since it's already limited to small and medium, it's not going to give them anything too crazy for 1 hour.
And/or what if they can treat the zombie as if they just cast animate dead on it? That way it would last longer than an hour, and it's easier to rebuild their horde.


Improvement 3 General QoL:
Since this subclass does not give any benefit to their undead horde like the necromancy wizard subclass does, what if zombies created by this character get a bonus to their stealth (advantage on checks or a flat bonus or something) since they are nature-revived instead of arcane-revived. Think fungi or other plants growing out of them, or being covered in other natural materials which allows them to blend into their surroundings better.

[Zhorn]

unless the player has actually run into problems where they've felt underpowered or lacking compared to the rest of their party; maybe just hands off for a bit and let the player play the class they picked?

It can be very tempting to homebrew everything, but some cases it maybe better to get the first hand experience of how it performs before reaching for the toolbox.

You can always introduce optional homebrew for the player to choose to adopt later via narrative quest rewards and adventure hooks.

[Psyren]

While I agree that it's best to see how the class plays out before changing it, Spores has always been a bit weak to me, so I'll proceed on the assumption that you're comfortable with some buffs.

Improvement 1: Taking away the reaction cost can cause the total damage output from the feature to jump tremendously in a big fight, as now every creature that passes or starts near the player will be subject to it. But in a boss battle with one big creature this change won't do anything. Personally, if I was looking to buff it, I would let them add their Wis mod to the reactive damage, but still require the reaction - that will buff it without making it scale up with number of foes.

Improvement 2: For this one I'd just increase the reanimation window to be 2 rounds or something, that lets you minimize conflicts between hurting something with your reaction and using it to animate something else.

Improvement 3: I wouldn't bake this into the ability because it doesn't apply everywhere - say, in a city street. Rather, if you feel their mushroom-y appearance makes it easier for them to hide in a certain terrain, just give them advantage ad-hoc as the DM.

[ender241]

Improvement 1 Halo of Spores:
I don't see why this feature requires a reaction. At level 6, it competes with Fungal Infestation, and when you throw it with the level 10 feature, there's no reaction required. What if we just remove the reaction from this feature?

It requires a reaction because it breaks action economy without it. Free, always-on damage to anything and everything that comes near you would be OP for a level 2 feature. Maybe something like that as a capstone. Even then, it would be very strong. The level 10 feature is not the same because:
1) Symbiotic Entity has to be active
2) It requires a bonus action to trigger it
3) It can't move
4) It covers a smaller area


Improvement 2 Fungal Infestation:
What if this feature allowed you to just use the resurrected monster stat block instead of just a zombie? Since it's already limited to small and medium, it's not going to give them anything too crazy for 1 hour.

I think you underestimate how powerful some small and medium monsters can be. There are 14 small/medium monsters of CR 20+ alone. Giving a player control of the original monster's stat block for an hour (WIS times per long rest) would in fact be crazy and potentially game-breaking. Especially on monsters with spellcasting.


And/or what if they can treat the zombie as if they just cast animate dead on it? That way it would last longer than an hour, and it's easier to rebuild their horde.

I'd still be hesitant here. Especially if you were to let them expend a use of the feature to reassert control after 24 hours. Minions (even low CR like zombies) have the potential to be game changing, so this could easily get OP if you're not extremely careful. Plus they already get Animate Dead on their spell list. If they want longer duration zombies they should use a spell slot.



Improvement 3 General QoL:
Since this subclass does not give any benefit to their undead horde like the necromancy wizard subclass does, what if zombies created by this character get a bonus to their stealth (advantage on checks or a flat bonus or something) since they are nature-revived instead of arcane-revived. Think fungi or other plants growing out of them, or being covered in other natural materials which allows them to blend into their surroundings better.

This is the most reasonable suggestion but I still don't think it's necessary.

Overall I agree with Zhorn. Let them play with the subclass RAW before tweaking anything. See if they truly are underpowered compared to the rest of the party or if they bring up any concerns. I've not played with a Spores Druid before but my impression is that it's a solid subclass. Not the best Druid subclass but certainly not the worst. And at the end of the day they are still a full caster with medium armor and shield proficiency and d8 hit dice. Unless the rest of the group are heavy optimizers who went with only the best options, I think they'll be ok (and quite possibly still ok even if that is the case).

[JNAProductions]

Druids are pretty damn good.

Spores is a lackluster subclass, but the base Druid is more than good enough that there's a good chance your player won't feel it.

I'm 100% on board with modifying the subclass if the player feels it's needed-but if they don't, it's more work for minimal gain.

[sayaijin]

It requires a reaction because it breaks action economy without it. Free, always-on damage to anything and everything that comes near you would be OP for a level 2 feature. Maybe something like that as a capstone. Even then, it would be very strong. The level 10 feature is not the same because:
1) Symbiotic Entity has to be active
2) It requires a bonus action to trigger it
3) It can't move
4) It covers a smaller area

Fair enough


I think you underestimate how powerful some small and medium monsters can be. There are 14 small/medium monsters of CR 20+ alone. Giving a player control of the original monster's stat block for an hour (WIS times per long rest) would in fact be crazy and potentially game-breaking. Especially on monsters with spellcasting.

I thought of powerful creatures for sure. It does require a beast or humanoid, so it limits a lot of the strongest creatures - mostly spellcasters at that point. That being said, they don't get any other benefit to their zombies like the necromancer wizard does, and the wizard gets simulacrum+wish around the time this druid would face off against those scariest humanoids.



I'd still be hesitant here. Especially if you were to let them expend a use of the feature to reassert control after 24 hours. Minions (even low CR like zombies) have the potential to be game changing, so this could easily get OP if you're not extremely careful. Plus they already get Animate Dead on their spell list. If they want longer duration zombies they should use a spell slot.


I apologize I wasn't clearer. This feature would not let them reassert control, it would only give them the benefit of the first part of animate dead.


This is the most reasonable suggestion but I still don't think it's necessary.
As I've said before, I mostly come to this discussion with previous experience with the necromancer wizard and how they get meaningful benefits to their horde, and I don't want to tell my player to sacrifice flavor for min/maxing by telling them to go wizard to be a better undead commander.


Overall I agree with Zhorn. Let them play with the subclass RAW before tweaking anything. See if they truly are underpowered compared to the rest of the party or if they bring up any concerns. I've not played with a Spores Druid before but my impression is that it's a solid subclass. Not the best Druid subclass but certainly not the worst. And at the end of the day they are still a full caster with medium armor and shield proficiency and d8 hit dice. Unless the rest of the group are heavy optimizers who went with only the best options, I think they'll be ok (and quite possibly still ok even if that is the case).

I greatly appreciate all the feedback so far.

[Sorinth]

If you wanted to boost Spores I would suggest either changing the duration of Symbiotic Entity to 1hr or making it a Bonus Action to activate. Having the temp hp online and not costing you your action is going to be more fun then not using your reaction.

For the zombie I think it depends on whether they use summon spells or not. If the player isn't going to use the summon spells then I think it's fair to boost the zombie in some ways. But if they are using summons, and can animate boosted zombies on top of that it could be a problem.

[sambojin]

The problem with buffing Spores is, they're still a Druid. Thus, very good at what they do. But spores is pretty good anyway.
(Just buff Halo and Symbiotic Entity to do either Necrotic or Magic Bludgeoning damage (player's choice each time) and be done with it. Exploding Spores/ whatever, as the justification for it)

The Halo of Spores is fine. It works in wildshape, it works in caster form, it's always-on, it has a 10' reach, and it DC hits. While Con is a hard save to hit, you will have a high Wis if you're trying to spores druid properly, so it hits often enough and doesn't cost any resources. It costs a reaction, yes, but it's not a bad thing to have a cool thingy to do with your reaction on any character.
"The nobleman finishes his speech, how do you react?". Well....

Symbiotic Entity works ok. I'll agree that it should have been an hour buff, but it works in wildshape. A Warhorse, Ape, Jaculi or Frilled Deathspitter doesn't feel weak at lvl4 with symbiotic entity going. You feel like an absolute powerhouse, considering you get Halo as well. A very worthwhile use of two wildshape charges. Even CR1/4 shapes can be pretty buff with this. If they're a Cow, Elk, Giant Badger, Ox, Velociraptor or Wolf, they'll feel pretty good flicking the SE switch "on" at lvl2-3 for an action. It would be beautiful as a bonus action, but it's essentially a +damage +HP spell for your wildshape, so isn't a bad use of an action. Until you hit next level.

And guess what happens next level? You become a full caster. Like, a proper full caster. This kinda counts for lvl3 or lvl5 as a druid. Summon Beast is amazing, as are other lvl2 druid spells, and the lvl3 ones are even better. Remember, Druids do a lot of things differently to other classes, but they still essentially do these things well. And when you Voltron all their abilities together, they're amazeballs. Does being a Giant Badger, ridden by a monkey-shaped beast spirit, with Symbiotic Entity going, sound alright at lvl3? Because, you can do that. 3x attacks, reasonable damage, and even reasonable to-hit (considering how low of a level you are, and you are not meant to be a melee character). At level 3! Add in racial abilities (kobold, cough...) or feats and it can get pretty OP.

Then at lvl6 you occasionally get free zombies. At the exact same level that you can cast a lot of Conjure Animals or Summon Fey or Animate Dead. And you already have Summon Beast and plenty of slots for it. It looks like a ribbon, but any more on top of your spell slots is a lot. Free is nice. You already have a horde or buddy-system going, the occasional extra freebie is just a "that's nice, thanks for dying near me" thing.

And then at lvl7, you're like a really full-caster, with the occasional fun gimmick or extra HP. Oh, and even if you never use wildshape, or symbiotic entity, and never even meet a beast or humanoid the whole campaign, you still get 2/sr Find Familiar that you can cast as an action (which is really quick), and it doesn't cost any gold. But seriously, cast Polymorph on yourself, use Symbiotic Entity, and have some fun 🤪
(You have some seriously powerful spells at this level)

Lvl8 is still fun with flying forms. What don't flying forms have? HP. What does Symbiotic Entity give you? Free HP. +32HP there-of at lvl8. Be the Giantest Eagle you can be bro! It's just a dumb "no, wildshape really doesn't scale, but I've still got some funny stuff to do. I can be a ninja cat!". Big, not particularly scary spiders, and all.
(And seriously, if you or your party can't work out how to give a +HP'd/ +necro(poison? Why?)-damage Deinonychus advantage or +to-hit on all its attacks by now, that's probably not your fault. You have fully missed what a Spores Druid can do at this level. Melee is your *back-up* option by now, but it's still there, and is a fun way to save spell slots)


So, yeah, they're not the best druid. But they're still pretty powerful at lvls2-5 with extra damage and HP, and then become full casters with a couple of auto-prepped spells after that. You wouldn't ever say "I think this Wizard school needs a buff!". This is sort of like that.


((Stars Druids have a lot of this sort of stuff early on too. Lvls2-4 are like "so how much can I leverage this Archer thing, in wildshape or not?"))

[elyktsorb]

Improvement 1 Halo of Spores:
Halo of Spores
Starting at 2nd level, you are surrounded by invisible, necrotic spores that are harmless until you unleash them on a creature nearby. When a creature you can see moves into a space within 10 feet of you or starts its turn there, you can use your reaction to deal 1d4 necrotic damage to that creature unless it succeeds on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC. The necrotic damage increases to 1d6 at 6th level, 1d8 at 10th level, and 1d10 at 14th level.I don't see why this feature requires a reaction. At level 6, it competes with Fungal Infestation, and when you throw it with the level 10 feature, there's no reaction required. What if we just remove the reaction from this feature?


Improvement 2 Fungal Infestation:
Fungal Infestation
At 6th level, your spores gain the ability to infest a corpse and animate it. If a beast or a humanoid that is Small or Medium dies within 10 feet of you, you can use your reaction to animate it, causing it to stand up immediately with 1 hit point. The creature uses the Zombie stat block in the Monster Manual. It remains animate for 1 hour, after which time it collapses and dies.

In combat, the zombie's turn comes immediately after yours. It obeys your mental commands, and the only action it can take is the Attack action, making one melee attack.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.What if this feature allowed you to just use the resurrected monster stat block instead of just a zombie? Since it's already limited to small and medium, it's not going to give them anything too crazy for 1 hour.
And/or what if they can treat the zombie as if they just cast animate dead on it? That way it would last longer than an hour, and it's easier to rebuild their horde.


Improvement 3 General QoL:
Since this subclass does not give any benefit to their undead horde like the necromancy wizard subclass does, what if zombies created by this character get a bonus to their stealth (advantage on checks or a flat bonus or something) since they are nature-revived instead of arcane-revived. Think fungi or other plants growing out of them, or being covered in other natural materials which allows them to blend into their surroundings better.



As someone who loves playing Druids, and has been messing about with Spore Druid recently, I can say that the point of the Spore Druid class isn't really undead focused? Yeah it has an undead bend to it, but only in the vein of mushroom zombies. Otherwise it more so plays into the decay aspect of nature as being a thing, not to mention it's clearly not built around summoning undead.

For your 1st change, I don't see the point of removing the reaction cost, both because it breaks stuff, and because Druid's don't normally have much to do with their reaction usually. I'd basically make it so Halo of Spores at least does half damage on a failed save as opposed to no damage at all.

While I personally dislike the fact that Spore Druid's just summon up a plain jane Zombie, without severe tinkering with it, this is likely the best course of action to keep it from being too powerful of an ability, having it copy the creatures statblock outright is ripe for abuse. (Personally I wish they got an actual custom statblock plant zombie to summon because I think something reanimated with fungus shouldn't share the same weaknesses and abilities with something normally animated with reanimate dead. Like come on, it doesn't make sense for a Plant Zombie's undead fortitude to be blocked by radiant damage)

Your 3rd improvement.. Is confusing? Both thematically and mechanically. Any 6th level Druid can cast Pass Without Trace, which is usually enough to buff any lackluster stealth (Even if Zombies have a default -2) and Zombies also have a 20ft movement speed. And Druid's themselves are really good at stealthing, so I don't know why you'd need your zombies to do it for you.


The only other change I would make to the subclass currently is for Symbiotic Entity to be a bonus action as well. Mimicking how Moon Druid's can use their Wild Shape more flexibly. Which would also mean if you start combat without it up, you don't have to spend 2 turns to turn into an animal and then give yourself temp hp.

I personally prefer to play Druid's in Melee as opposed to spell slinging, but I also do silly multiclass things so I have an obvious bias.


As for your first question, do I think it underperforms? No! I also don't play a pure Spore Druid (I have a Spore Druid/Monk) My biggest issue when playing my character is that I often have to waste time setting up my Symbiotic Entity because my party just goes into the encounter, get targeted immediately if I did go in with it up or just turned it on turn 1, lose my temp hp, then waste another turn setting it up.

I find that to get the most out of Spore Druid's abilities, you play mostly not like a regular druid. Because I think if you wanted to play a Druid that had neat abilities and also did stuff with spells like usual, that Land, Stars, Wildfire, Shepard, and even Dream's fit that better than Spore.

[sayaijin]

As someone who loves playing Druids, and has been messing about with Spore Druid recently, I can say that the point of the Spore Druid class isn't really undead focused? Yeah it has an undead bend to it, but only in the vein of mushroom zombies. Otherwise it more so plays into the decay aspect of nature as being a thing, not to mention it's clearly not built around summoning undead.

That's true. I just have a player who wants to go all in on leading a zombie horde as a druid instead of a wizard. Like I think he might want to reflavor animal summons as temporary zombies.



While I personally dislike the fact that Spore Druid's just summon up a plain jane Zombie, without severe tinkering with it, this is likely the best course of action to keep it from being too powerful of an ability, having it copy the creatures statblock outright is ripe for abuse. (Personally I wish they got an actual custom statblock plant zombie to summon because I think something reanimated with fungus shouldn't share the same weaknesses and abilities with something normally animated with reanimate dead. Like come on, it doesn't make sense for a Plant Zombie's undead fortitude to be blocked by radiant damage)


Now that is a good idea. Possibly make it similar to the scaling summons.



The only other change I would make to the subclass currently is for Symbiotic Entity to be a bonus action as well. Mimicking how Moon Druid's can use their Wild Shape more flexibly. Which would also mean if you start combat without it up, you don't have to spend 2 turns to turn into an animal and then give yourself temp hp.

This seems to be the best fix.

[Merudo]

Spores Druid is not a bad subclass. Not as OP as Shepherd or Moon, but it's good.

Symbiotic Entity gives 4THP per level, which is a whole lot. In comparison, the Life Cleric's Preserve Life restores 5HP per level, and cannot heal a character past half hitpoints.

Symbiotic Entity is a terrific feature, but has two downsides: (1) it's a defensive ability, and most players underrate defensive features, and (2) it is best activated before combat has started, but too many players forget to activate it ahead of time.

Spores Druid also gain access to the fantastic Animate Dead spell. It combines wonderfully with Conjure Animals, as you can have a wave a skeletons archers shooting safely from behind a hordes of beasts. You can also give your skeletons Magic Stones for additional damage. The Spores Druid can outdo the Shepherd Druid at minionmancy against creatures without physical damage resistances.

The rest of the spell list is okay, with Blindness/Deafness a decent non-concentration option for the Druid (they have very few of these). Chill Touch is also a great 120' range cantrip; without it, Druids don't have any sustainable long range options beside a sling (30'/120') or the previously mentioned Magic Stone (60').

Halo of Spores and Fungal Infestation allow you to spend your unused reaction to do minor damage or get a weak monster. Cool.

Overall, I'd say the Spores Circle gives you ton of durability, together with a lot of neat goodies that all require some planning to use well.

[sambojin]

All of the above. But remember, every druid subclass with features that can boost wildshape, should use them at lvls2-6. That's Dreams (you can bonus-action heal people while in wildshape, incredibly valuable), Moon (big/Lotsa wildshape, like lotsa lots), Stars (Archer & weal/woe), Shepherd (totems) and *Spores* (this one that we're talking about).

It really is a good thing to be able to do. It doesn't really matter if it blows both your wildshape charges, or uses up your short or long rest subclass feature, it's really very valuable.

Why?

On a 1-2 short rest day, you can "solve" 1-3 encounters a day out of 3-8 of them, just using sub/class abilities. Little wildshape that is *boosted* is nothing to sneer at. It's actually pretty powerful, even without racials or feats or spells to boost it more. Or even super-exotic animals to transform into. And what does that do for you?

It saves spell slots! Because at lvls5-20, that's where your real strength lays, heaps of long-lasting spells and summons. But until you really get to the "I'm a *proper* full-list full-caster now, with heaps of spell preps!", saving 1-3 spell slots a day is invaluable. Because when you need them, early on, you've got them there, and you can solve another 1-3 encounters a day for the entire party, only using 1-2 of them per encounter. Because you've got them still and your spells are good. Because you wildshape'd and subclassed some problems away.


It's not only a low-level thing. For even a lvl8 Spores Druid, this can be 4+ hours a day of just being a "beast thingy" for each wildshape charge. So it's not all early level on the buffs. You can short-rest as the flying enabler for the party, and have another 2 sets of tHP and poison damage and a fun reaction to use while people blow their hit-dice on "healing". Lol

(Remember, wildshape can wrap over for *hours* at lvl4+ between encounters. It's a long time. You can even short-rest sometimes and never leave wildshape, but get your subclass abilities refreshed. Like, regularly, if you want to. Be a caster, you should be as a Druid, but CR0->1/4->1/2->1 wildshape forms scale for your subclass like no other Druid can with Spores tHP. For like *ten* minutes, twice per short rest..... 🥲. But no-one else can be an 81HP CR0 creature at lvl20!

It's honestly hard to complain about being a 58HP Spores Giant Spider with amazing saves, being escorted by 4 other "normal" Giant Spiders, for some silly amount of web/bitey action economy/party movement at lvl9 for the cost of a lvl5 spell slot for a Conjure. Circles within circles, spells within spells. It's not like you can't be something else)


So yeah. Spores is fine. It can do that. It can just wildshape some lower level problems or thingies or situations away, either in or out of combat, and then do quite a lot of casting. Or it can do a bit of both in any given encounter. Or do other stuff with its resources, depending on what's needed. And has quite nice flying forms that aren't instantly Fireball'able for drop-death. A bit of prior planning may be required, but that's not exactly a big ask for what should be a high-Wis character with a full spell list to work from. It'd be nice if Symbiotic Entity worked on a bonus action, it'd be nice if the extra damage was necrotic instead of poison. But it is what it is.

It's not weak enough to need a range of buffs. There is heaps of stuff you can quite capably do as one. Sometimes better than classes that really try and do this stuff can. Because you're a druid 🙂


((Refer to this document:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584818

It's not fully featured on a Spores Druid, they're an afterthought, but if you just want to get a grasp of the engineering-envelope you'll be putting your subclass buffs into, yep. Be the Giantest Eagle you can be, bro!))

(((If you really want to give them a boost, remember that most magical armour reshapes to the user's size. And so do weapons. And so do saddles. In fact, per PHB/DMG stipulations RAW and RAI, most wildshapes could use damn near anything if it was magical, and they had some gaffer-tape or blu-tack or a bag or some rubber bands prepared. Or any support from their "Circle" (like how Clerics get Temples, Paladins get Orders, Rogues get Thieve's Guilds, etc etc. Most DMs totally forget that Druids have Circles, and these Circles are only loosely geographically connected, and aren't entirely subclass oriented, and are an easy RP-piece to enter NPCs+ into the world. Druids even have a secret language to mess around with, where they can write stuff down in the local environment, for LOLs.

Simulacrum needs snow. Wildshape just needs magic items and druid circles. There's a reason Detect Magic can be ritually casted by a full list nature caster)))

[sayaijin]

All right, so the characters have hit level 5, and the druid is basically mouth watering over necromancy and he's doing all the math on how many under minions he can make at higher levels. He's basically looking at only using spell slots for that.

Should I just have him switch over to necromancy wizard and give him a wild shape feat? He wants to be a "druid" for the ability to wild shape, but otherwise he's not really paying much attention to high level druid spells.

[JNAProductions]

All right, so the characters have hit level 5, and the druid is basically mouth watering over necromancy and he's doing all the math on how many under minions he can make at higher levels. He's basically looking at only using spell slots for that.

Should I just have him switch over to necromancy wizard and give him a wild shape feat? He wants to be a "druid" for the ability to wild shape, but otherwise he's not really paying much attention to high level druid spells.

Talk to the player-especially because minions can be a big hassle for everyone involved!

See what would work best, and make sure everyone at the table is having fun.

[sambojin]

I'd probably just refluff a few beasts for Conjure Animals over to being undead and leave it at that. I wouldn't even bother changing them to the undead type, just assume they look undead and cool. As soon as he realises how much better they are than skeletons or zombies, he'll probably mostly pick them instead. Or do both. But culling the list of possible beasts down a lot makes it easier on you.
What's available to him for his choices from Conjure Animals at lvl5 (lvl3 slot):

8* Rotting Bats (CR0 Bats)
8* Possessed Wolf-Hounds (CR1/4 Elk)
8* Death-spiders (CR1/4 Giant Wolf Spider)
4* Skeletal Steeds (CR1/2 Warhorse)
4* Flying Horrors (CR1/2 Giant Dragonfly)
4* Shrieking Eels (CR1/2 Giant Sea Eel)
2* Lumbering Zombie Brutes (CR1 Brown Bear)
2* Tentacled Monstrosities (CR1 Giant Rocktopus)
1* Undead Wyrm (CR2 Giant Constrictor Snake)
1* Fel Beast (CR2 Quetzalcoatlus)

So, plenty of versatility, plenty of character, plenty of fun things for him and the party to ride/fly around on, and something for every environment. Lots of lockdown too. Mostly shifted towards the higher CR ranges, so you hopefully don't have to deal with 8-16-24 CR1/4 creatures on the battlefield all that regularly.

Way easier than all the "army management" of a proper necromancer. He just snaps his fingers, and they appear. Then they disappear later, or when he loses concentration. He'll still get free zombies, and can Animate Dead skellies, but this will make it feel *so* much better.

It also saves you constantly fireballing his skellies down to a manageable amount, and when he realises how fragile they are, he'll hopefully go "wow, HP and to-hit are actually useful!". Hopefully...

[elyktsorb]

All right, so the characters have hit level 5, and the druid is basically mouth watering over necromancy and he's doing all the math on how many under minions he can make at higher levels. He's basically looking at only using spell slots for that.

Should I just have him switch over to necromancy wizard and give him a wild shape feat? He wants to be a "druid" for the ability to wild shape, but otherwise he's not really paying much attention to high level druid spells.

I suppose I'd ask them why they really want to keep Wild Shape, and also still do Necromancy, when a Necromancy Wizard is so much better at that?

Necromancy Wizards, at 6th level, basically double the number of undead they can summon with the spell, so if he wants a bunch of undead minions, there's already a big reason to go Necromancer.

I'd also make sure they are aware that the undead they can make with their 6th level ability only have 1hp, only last for an hour, and never gets any better.

Spore Druid's do not receive any benefits to raising dead, their undead will not get any bonuses.

But also why does the player like wildshape? Are they using it to scout often? Hide? Are they benefiting the party or mostly just using wildshape for shenanigans?

At the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with them wanting to be a druid that raises undead, they can totally do that, just that their undead aren't going to be very helpful if your game gets into higher levels.

[Zhorn]

Part of me keeps wondering why you don't want them to be an as written spore druid.
Has the player expressed a disappointment in playing their spore druid, or wanting to be something other than their spore druid?

Just playing devil's advocate here, but so far the only dissatisfaction with the subclass has been coming from your end.

[sayaijin]

I suppose I'd ask them why they really want to keep Wild Shape, and also still do Necromancy, when a Necromancy Wizard is so much better at that?

Necromancy Wizards, at 6th level, basically double the number of undead they can summon with the spell, so if he wants a bunch of undead minions, there's already a big reason to go Necromancer.

I'd also make sure they are aware that the undead they can make with their 6th level ability only have 1hp, only last for an hour, and never gets any better.

Spore Druid's do not receive any benefits to raising dead, their undead will not get any bonuses.

But also why does the player like wildshape? Are they using it to scout often? Hide? Are they benefiting the party or mostly just using wildshape for shenanigans?

At the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with them wanting to be a druid that raises undead, they can totally do that, just that their undead aren't going to be very helpful if your game gets into higher levels.

For the first 4 levels he's been using wild shape for scouting/sneaking. I think he will continue using it for that.

He is also a new player and in our last session he wanted to try out one of his level 3 slots on a long dead skeleton of a magic user on hopes of adding a powerful skeleton mage to his horde. I had to explain Animate Dead, Create Undead, and the necromancer's Command Undead feature as guideposts as to why he can't do that yet.


Part of me keeps wondering why you don't want them to be an as written spore druid.
Has the player expressed a disappointment in playing their spore druid, or wanting to be something other than their spore druid?

Just playing devil's advocate here, but so far the only dissatisfaction with the subclass has been coming from your end.

You're not wrong. A lot of my commentary on here has been about problems I predict will come up. What he tried to do in our last session and some of the messages he's sent me since then make it seem like it is going to be an issue, and the easiest solution would probably be to have him switch to necromancer wizard and give him a feat or something that lets him take the form of a familiar (reduce the number of creatures he can transform into even more).

[elyktsorb]

He is also a new player and in our last session he wanted to try out one of his level 3 slots on a long dead skeleton of a magic user on hopes of adding a powerful skeleton mage to his horde. I had to explain Animate Dead, Create Undead, and the necromancer's Command Undead feature as guideposts as to why he can't do that yet.


Yeah, it really seems that he likes being a Druid, but also enjoys the undead stuff, which is unfortunate because even though Spore Druid's have a fairly decent thematic reason to do stuff with undead, it can be misleading. They don't get anything other than the ability to cast Animate Dead, and their 6th level ability that makes very weak undead on the fly.

My only other solution is that you could possible just substitute his druid features for the necromancer wizard features? Like, does he uses the Spores part of Spore Druid much?

[sambojin]

How many skeletons do you plan on giving this guy? Because, unless he's going to spend a long time butchering the meat off corpses, he's going to get Zombies from Animate Dead. And while they're vaguely resilient, they're slow and boring as f*.

I'd still steer him towards Conjure "Undead" Animals. Trying to go "yeah, be a full necromancer with wild/familiar shape" really isn't going to help anything. It'll be terrible for a new player to manage an army.

Hell, give him CR1/2 Frilled Deathspitters from Conjure Animals and call them Risen Deathknight Mages if you want. Watch him blend everything for a lvl3 slot. But full necro-management? For a new player? That you don't want to hurt or make cry?

Nah, that's just silly.

Maybe just make him a Shepherd druid, but he gets the Animate Dead spell as well? Still theme his conjures/ summons, and let him totem them up, because cool-factor. I mean, is he even using Summon Beast by now? I don't know. A full character class change, to an entirely different spell list and casting mechanics is weird. Where-as, flavouring Druids is easy. They get hordes of "anything" by default, but you as the DM decides what that can be on conjures (with player input, of course).

Seriously, if any of the things available on "the list of availables" of Conjure Animals was just a lvl3 spell, it'd still be a pretty good spell. Theming them won't remove that, or narrowing down the list a bit. Multipurpose, but known, is good.

I cast "Death-Spiders!". Good spell.
I cast "Tentacled Monstrosities!". Good spell.
I cast "Skeletal Steeds!". Good spell.
I cast "Flying Horrors!". Really good spell.
I cast "Undead Wyrm!". Good spell.
I cast... "Deformed Rabbits!". What?
"Look, it can do all those other things above, but it can't do that. Sorry. Just pick the thing off the list that it can do. Even your zombies are looking at you like *,duh".

[Segev]

Personally, my favorite use for Spores Druid is as a 2-level dip on a monk.

[sayaijin]

Yeah, it really seems that he likes being a Druid, but also enjoys the undead stuff, which is unfortunate because even though Spore Druid's have a fairly decent thematic reason to do stuff with undead, it can be misleading. They don't get anything other than the ability to cast Animate Dead, and their 6th level ability that makes very weak undead on the fly.

My only other solution is that you could possible just substitute his druid features for the necromancer wizard features? Like, does he uses the Spores part of Spore Druid much?

Do you think this would be too powerful? That would be the easiest solution: just take away all subclass features and replace them with necromancer wizard features. Obviously the level 2 spell book feature would be dead, but for more powerful undead and keeping his wild shape that might be a fair trade.



How many skeletons do you plan on giving this guy? Because, unless he's going to spend a long time butchering the meat off corpses, he's going to get Zombies from Animate Dead. And while they're vaguely resilient, they're slow and boring as f*.

I'd still steer him towards Conjure "Undead" Animals. Trying to go "yeah, be a full necromancer with wild/familiar shape" really isn't going to help anything. It'll be terrible for a new player to manage an army.

Hell, give him CR1/2 Frilled Deathspitters from Conjure Animals and call them Risen Deathknight Mages if you want. Watch him blend everything for a lvl3 slot. But full necro-management? For a new player? That you don't want to hurt or make cry?

Nah, that's just silly.

Maybe just make him a Shepherd druid, but he gets the Animate Dead spell as well? Still theme his conjures/ summons, and let him totem them up, because cool-factor. I mean, is he even using Summon Beast by now? I don't know. A full character class change, to an entirely different spell list and casting mechanics is weird. Where-as, flavouring Druids is easy. They get hordes of "anything" by default, but you as the DM decides what that can be on conjures (with player input, of course).

Seriously, if any of the things available on "the list of availables" of Conjure Animals was just a lvl3 spell, it'd still be a pretty good spell. Theming them won't remove that, or narrowing down the list a bit. Multipurpose, but known, is good.

I cast "Death-Spiders!". Good spell.
I cast "Tentacled Monstrosities!". Good spell.
I cast "Skeletal Steeds!". Good spell.
I cast "Flying Horrors!". Really good spell.
I cast "Undead Wyrm!". Good spell.
I cast... "Deformed Rabbits!". What?
"Look, it can do all those other things above, but it can't do that. Sorry. Just pick the thing off the list that it can do. Even your zombies are looking at you like *,duh".

Yeah, I'm seeing reflavoring the conjure spells as the other viable workaround. I'm going to keep them at level 5 for a minute to see how heavy he goes into the undead bookkeeping before we do anything too crazy. Right now he says he wants to go full undead army leader at high levels, but that may change.