Consequences of getting a Wish at first level

[Jay R]

I’m considering doing something dangerous and stupid. Therefore I’m asking you to playtest it a little bit.

I’m about to start a 3.5e game for long-term D&D plyers who have never played 3.5e. [How long term are they? They have all played AD&D 1e and 2e, and they’ve all played original D&D. The youngest player is over 55.]

I’ve never DMed 3.5e, but I have played it for the last few years. I’ve DMed other versions (and other games) off and on since the 1970s.

They (and I) all prefer to start out at first level. But first level in 3.5e can be daunting, especially for players who have never played it. I want to give them a little help.

So I am considering a scenario that will give them each a single Wish by the end of the first session.*

*Assuming they actually choose to rescue the godling, of course. I'm aware that I can't decide what they will do. But if they don't. their village will eventually be destroyed, and they will know that.

This can give them a major magic item. It can give them mundane stuff far beyond WBL for first levels.

But what are the actual dangers?

I’m not worried about really clever uses of system mastery – they don’t know 3.5e. I’m not worried about them trying to break the game; they are players who don’t do that. And I’m not worried about them being more powerful than an average low-level party – I’m a good enough DM to design encounters for the party as they are, not as an average party would be, so that the players are challenged.

I’m primarily worried about unintended consequences. What do you see as the potential dangers in having a Wish at the lowest levels?

[Jack_Simth]

Well, can they be saved for when needed? I would recommend not.

That aside... short term boosts vs. long term boosts.
If one player grabs, say, a belt of magnificence +6, then that player is at +3 to yes above game expectations forever.
If another player takes, say, a polymorph any object to be a strong monster, then it might have a one week duration.
What's the balance of these two for that first week, and what's the balance after? You may end up with an unbalanced party.

Likewise, monkey paw wishes are a classic, so you may have some folks play it safe wishing up weak - or even no - effects, while others go after something strong, gambling that they can just roll up a new character if it doesn't work out.

[Rynjin]

Really what you need to ensure is that there's a level playing field among the party, more than among the world. You an always adjust combat challenges to account for oddball special abilities, higher stats, etc. that they wish for, so long as everybody does something like that.

The main problem you might run into is something like...Player A Wishes his mom back to life and in good health, and Player B wishes for an Artifact or something. It's gonna make party balance wonky.

My advice? Drop the Wish on everyone at the end, or near the end of the session, and then make it clear "Hey, we need to discuss as a group what's going on with this wish so everyone can kind of stay on an even keel". If one player wants power, and one wants some kind of RP goal, this can actually be reconciled.

Instead of player A wishing for mom to come back and Player B getting like a Holy Avenger or whatever, maybe Player B wishes for some power boost that benefits the whole party; a big pile of cash that they can all draw from as a party fund, etc. So long as everyone ends up at the same place power balance-wise it'll all work itself out.

[pabelfly]

I'd give Wish or similar later, far beyond first level - the godling saved will reward them at another time, perhaps due to plot reasons. When you see party balance starting to tilt out of reasonable balance and some party members are struggling, the godling comes back and gives out Wishes, or better, various rewards to different party members to help struggling party members more than others, tailored to something that suits each player's specific build idea or playstyle.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A couple of limited wishes each might be better. A bit less abusable. Plus, if the minor god has "selfishness" or something similar in his portfolio, he might require that everyone in the group use them explicitly for themselves, and not for others. He might also use it to hook them into doing things for him in order to get more.

[icefractal]

Items would be the biggest impact I think. Most of the "unique to Wish" effects - like inherent bonuses or transport to anywhere - are a bigger deal at high levels than low ones.

You might therefore want to keep item wishes general rather than really specific, and scale them to a similar level. So rather than one person getting a Bag of Holding and someone else gets a Belt of Magnificence +6, it's a Belt +2 and a non-relic Enveloping Pit, for instance.

[ciopo]

you could simply give a +1 inherent bonus to one ability score of their choice, instead of the actual wish, that's both simple and relatively low impact

[bekeleven]

Wish's most broken defined effect scales with xp, so assuming there's a cap, they can't wish for, I don't know, a scroll with two wishes on it and go infinite. Definitely a fun puzzle, I'd go for "most expensive item the spell allows" myself, unless my character had a more specific need.

[daremetoidareyo]

What if they want super hero abilities from like the X-men?

[Telonius]

So you're wanting to give them a piece of equipment that will make their lives easier. I'd play it out something like this. The genie (or whatever wish-giver) talks to them and says, "I'm going to look into your hearts and into your futures, to see what would be most needful to you; that which will serve you best - what your destiny most desires - will be given to you."

Call for an out-of-character discussion at that point. Talk to them about how they see their characters developing and what sorts of things they'll need (or would most like). Then put something together for each of them. Maybe give them a modified sort of Legacy Weapon (minus the "sucks horribly" part), where more powers unlock as they gain in level. Or an intelligent weapon to each of them. Since they're all getting one, it wouldn't unbalance the party (as in, make one person vastly more powerful) to grant it. And make them make sense for the character. Like, if you've got a Dwarf Fighter, give them the Axe of Some Dwarven King IV, famous for fighting Orcs. Just make sure they're all roughly the same GP value, and that should be fine.

The "unbalancing" part then won't really show up for among the party, it'll be on your end when you're designing encounters. You may have to throw slightly harder enemies at them to keep the challenge up. Do some trial and error; slowly add an extra enemy or so until you get a good sense of how far above CR they are. (Don't just drop a CR party level+6 enemy on them, that's how you TPK; build up to it until you get a good sense of how well they're going to do with it). Don't sweat the XP calculation, either; when you've got a good sense of how strong they are, just mentally adjust the CR. Like, if a first-level party is having no trouble at all with CR 1 things and CR 3 seems more appropriate, subtract 2 from all the enemy CRs when figuring the XP award. (That's assuming you're using standard XP and not milestone).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Call for an out-of-character discussion at that point. Talk to them about how they see their characters developing and what sorts of things they'll need (or would most like). Then put something together for each of them. Maybe give them a modified sort of Legacy Weapon (minus the "sucks horribly" part), where more powers unlock as they gain in level. Or an intelligent weapon to each of them. Since they're all getting one, it wouldn't unbalance the party (as in, make one person vastly more powerful) to grant it. And make them make sense for the character. Like, if you've got a Dwarf Fighter, give them the Axe of Some Dwarven King IV, famous for fighting Orcs. Just make sure they're all roughly the same GP value, and that should be fine. Giving everyone the Ancestral Relic feat (with alignment requirements removed, because they're d-u-m-b), allowing everyone to choose their own item to imbue with relic powers,* and allowing them to sacrifice objects they wouldn't normally get money from anyway would work pretty well for this. Maybe give them a breakdown of the rules these objects follow (see: the multiple item effects on a single item entry in the MIC), as well as some suggested item effects that would be good for them in the future. Giving a masterwork riverine weapon the +1 metalline/morphing/sizing/aptitude/Hank's energy bow enhancements, as an example, with the greater magic weapon spell and MIC's weapon crystals as a reason why +5 flaming/frost/etc aren't on the list.




*Ask them what kinds of goodies they want to do with their magic item, then make suggestions on what kinds of items they might want. "I want +6 to all stats!" would be a belt, for instance.

[Jay R]

Lots of great thoughts, that are really helping me think this thing through. Thank you all! Keep them coming.

One other request: I often find specific examples to have better analysis than overall discussion. To help me see what the potential pitfalls are, consider answering these more specific questions.
1. What would your first level barbarian wish for?
2. What would your first level bard wish for?
3. What would your first level cleric wish for?
4. What would your first level druid wish for?
5. What would your first level fighter wish for?
6. What would your first level monk wish for?
7. What would your first level paladin wish for?
8. What would your first level ranger wish for?
9. What would your first level rogue wish for?
10. What would your first level sorcerer wish for?
11. What would your first level wizard wish for?

[Answer as many or few as you like. I would expect to have a wizard or sorcerer, a druid or cleric, a fighter / ranger / paladin, and a rogue.]


Well, can they be saved for when needed? I would recommend not.

Good question. No – the entity granting the wish will leave the universe forever immediately afterward.


That aside... short term boosts vs. long term boosts.
If one player grabs, say, a belt of magnificence +6, then that player is at +3 to yes above game expectations forever.
If another player takes, say, a polymorph any object to be a strong monster, then it might have a one week duration.
What's the balance of these two for that first week, and what's the balance after? You may end up with an unbalanced party.

That’s a good thought. I hadn’t even considered the idea that anybody would ask for a short-term benefit.


Likewise, monkey paw wishes are a classic, so you may have some folks play it safe wishing up weak - or even no - effects, while others go after something strong, gambling that they can just roll up a new character if it doesn't work out.

I don't do Monkey's Paw wishes unless forced, and the players know how to avoid it. If they don’t try to screw up the game, my wish will not screw up their character.


Really what you need to ensure is that there's a level playing field among the party, more than among the world. You an always adjust combat challenges to account for oddball special abilities, higher stats, etc. that they wish for, so long as everybody does something like that.

The main problem you might run into is something like...Player A Wishes his mom back to life and in good health, and Player B wishes for an Artifact or something. It's gonna make party balance wonky.

Agreed. My biggest concern about an unbalanced party is that some of them might make non-selfish wishes.
“I wish for a fully-activated Ring of Air Elemental Command.”
“I wish for a Staff of Power.”
“I wish for a Holy Avenger.”
“I wish for my home village to have a safe year of bumper crops and no goblin raids.”
“I wish for the new fissure running through my home village to be closed up safely.”

I'm not too worried about party balance up to a certain level. I've learned long ago how to choose encounters to help with that. From my Rules for DMs:

30. When a PC gets a great new ability, there needs to be an encounter in the next session for which that ability is devastatingly effective. Otherwise it doesn’t exist. There should also be an encounter in the next session in which it is useless. Otherwise, the rest of that character doesn’t exist.

Nobody cares if another PC is more powerful as long as there are occasional moments when each PC shines. The paladin has a Holy Avenger? She'll have great times with it. But then there will be a monster immune to physical attacks, and the wizard saves the day.

Your advice about ending the session with the wish is intriguing. I had considered not doing so, for a similar purpose. Make the wish right now, and you are less likely to come up with something too powerful. [Note that these players have never played 3.5e before, and don't have the magic items memorized.]


I'd give Wish or similar later, far beyond first level - the godling saved will reward them at another time, perhaps due to plot reasons. <snip>

That's an interesting idea, but it specifically avoids my goal, which is to make first level characters a little more powerful. If I drop that, I'll drop the idea entirely.


A couple of limited wishes each might be better. A bit less abusable. Plus, if the minor god has "selfishness" or something similar in his portfolio, he might require that everyone in the group use them explicitly for themselves, and not for others. He might also use it to hook them into doing things for him in order to get more.

Interesting. But does limited wish do anything to make the first level character more playable in general, or is it just a one-time situation-specific help? Please come back with specific ways it can help the character. [I note that two limited wishes can give a first level wizard permanent arcane sight, for instance, which a single wish cannot. What else can two limited wishes do that I might not think of?]


Items would be the biggest impact I think. Most of the "unique to Wish" effects - like inherent bonuses or transport to anywhere - are a bigger deal at high levels than low ones.

I think that's an excellent observation. My only real concerns are magic items.


You might therefore want to keep item wishes general rather than really specific, and scale them to a similar level. So rather than one person getting a Bag of Holding and someone else gets a Belt of Magnificence +6, it's a Belt +2 and a non-relic Enveloping Pit, for instance.

That makes sense. Since the entity is not from any plane normally connected to this one, it wouldn't know the specific items usually made here either, and I can tailor their requests to the power-level I want. "You can ask for a magic sword; you can't ask for a Keen Throwing Thundering Longsword of Speed +4."


you could simply give a +1 inherent bonus to one ability score of their choice, instead of the actual wish, that's both simple and relatively low impact

I'm considering having that happen as well. They will be at the center of one of the greatest expenditures of magic ever seen. These players don’t yet know how much more important the ability scores are in 3.5e compared to earlier versions.


Wish's most broken defined effect scales with xp, …

That’s a crucial observation. There are dangers in giving wishes to first levels, but they aren’t as overwhelming as wishes for high levels can be.


so assuming there's a cap, they can't wish for, I don't know, a scroll with two wishes on it and go infinite. Definitely a fun puzzle, I'd go for "most expensive item the spell allows" myself, unless my character had a more specific need.

No form of wishes for more wishes ever works. They know that already.


What if they want super hero abilities from like the X-men?

These players aren’t genre-busters. They will make medieval fantasy-appropriate wishes. If they did, I would find the closest equivalent possible within the strictures of a wish. They could cast a polymorph spell, but since they are first levels, they could only polymorph into a 1 HD monster.

But if it made sense, I’d allow it. A barbarian with extended claws for a natural weapon? No problem. An ice man wizard? I’d give her Winter’s Blast as a bonus feat.


... Maybe give them a modified sort of Legacy Weapon (minus the "sucks horribly" part), where more powers unlock as they gain in level...


Giving everyone the Ancestral Relic feat (with alignment requirements removed, because they're d-u-m-b), ...

Interesting ideas, and I'll consider them. But the primary purpose is to help them as first levels. I'd rather find something that is extremely valuable at low level and becomes less important as they advance.


The "unbalancing" part then won't really show up for among the party, it'll be on your end when you're designing encounters. ... <snip> ... Like, if a first-level party is having no trouble at all with CR 1 things and CR 3 seems more appropriate, subtract 2 from all the enemy CRs when figuring the XP award. (That's assuming you're using standard XP and not milestone).

I have no trouble balancing encounters, because I don't use arbitrary tools like published CR ratings. The best measure of what a party can handle is how well they handled the last encounter.

Thanks! You’ve all really helped me consider all the possibilities. Please keep the comments coming.

[Jervis]

For my money I recommend against giving Wishes to low level characters. The last time I played in a game that allowed that one player got a avatar of Bahamut as her boyfriend. Ran RAW wish isn’t that disruptive but they will almost certainly find a way to break everything with at least one of those wishes. I would recommend using something like Companion Spirits from DMG2 or giving them each one of those leveling magic items that I can’t remember the name of. Companion Shroud Spirit for example is just a permanent Gentle Repose that would let them Revivify to come back to life if they die without level loss. Those are usually reserved for level 4 but 3 levels early is less impactful than 16 levels early.

[ciopo]

One other request: I often find specific examples to have better analysis than overall discussion. To help me see what the potential pitfalls are, consider answering these more specific questions.
1. What would your first level barbarian wish for?
2. What would your first level bard wish for?
3. What would your first level cleric wish for?
4. What would your first level druid wish for?
5. What would your first level fighter wish for?
6. What would your first level monk wish for?
7. What would your first level paladin wish for?
8. What would your first level ranger wish for?
9. What would your first level rogue wish for?
10. What would your first level sorcerer wish for?
11. What would your first level wizard wish for?

barbarian/fighter/monk/paladin/ranger/rogue : "the best weapon possible", note that wish can create epic magic items, it's jsut that the xp cost of that is proibitive, how much magic this godling has is an unknown to me, but we are potentially in the territory of something as silly as +100 weapon. With a bit of more realistic "limit" : a +5 weapon with "bane" for every type of creature sounds clean enough to me
bard : Dove's harp from magic item compendium
cleric/sorcerer/wizard : greater quicken rod
druid : wild shape amulet from magic of faerun

[Jervis]

barbarian/fighter/monk/paladin/ranger/rogue : "the best weapon possible", note that wish can create epic magic items, it's jsut that the xp cost of that is proibitive, how much magic this godling has is an unknown to me, but we are potentially in the territory of something as silly as +100 weapon. With a bit of more realistic "limit" : a +5 weapon with "bane" for every type of creature sounds clean enough to me
bard : Dove's harp from magic item compendium
cleric/sorcerer/wizard : greater quicken rod
druid : wild shape amulet from magic of faerun

Keep in mind this godling may very well have wish as a SLA or SU so cost would be negligible.

[Ramza00]

Someone remind how does experience is a river work with an ally who is 8 levels (or more) higher than your party and said character is carrying you through monsters much stronger than you can fight normally.

Would you want to wish yourself a mentor to be resurrected from the dead to train the next generation of heroes? Every Naruto needs a Jiraiya type thing, every Skywalker needs an Obi Wan?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wish is worth 5,000 XP. One of them may very well use theirs to transfer that XP cost to their own XP total, leaving them at level 3.66 (or so). That's a lot better survivability than most things I could think to use a wish for at level 1.

[Telonius]

Barbarian: "An awesome weapon that helps me rage!"

Bard: ... reeeeeallly depends on the Bard, since there are so many ways a Bard could emphasize (social, combat, music, magic). Could be anything from a Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade to one of those magical lutes from Magic Item Compendium. A Bard I'm playing would probably want something that makes their Bardic Music stronger.

Cleric: "A Relic [from Magic Item Compendium] of my deity." Assuming it's one of the useful ones.

Druid: Dragonhide armor, probably with the Wild enchantment.

Fighter: Massive-bonus weapon or armor.

Monk: Very hard to answer that one. It's been years since I've had a Monk that wasn't (very) heavily houseruled. Maybe a Sparring Dummy of the Master (from Arms and Equipment Guide; requires a monk level and lets you take a 10 foot step instead of a 5 foot step), possibly a Monk's Belt with extra enhancements.

Paladin: Holy Avenger, or the Good-est most Evil-fighting-est weapon he can get. Possibly a really cool mount (like a unicorn or a pegasus or a dragon or something).

Ranger: Hank's Energy Bow (plus extra enchantments)

Rogue: Again, depends on the Rogue. If they're going the more assassin-y route, probably a pair of Swords of Subtlety (plus extra enhancements). Possibly something like a Rogue's Vest, or a Greater Shadow or Fortification armor

Sorcerer: Runestaffs. All the runestaffs they can possibly get.

Wizard: A spellbook with everything.

[Remuko]

If your group doesnt tend to intentionally break things i think it will be fine. If they get a stat item it will do as you want, help them thru the early game, if its something more generic it will probably also be more niche. The wish seems to be a one and done thing so its not like they can exchange it later etc. I really don't think there should be any massive problems aside from maybe someone regretting not picking something cooler down the line? but hopefully by that point they could start finding or buying stuff to help offset that.

[Seward]

My recommendation would be not to give a wish, but favors.

A high level mage that owes the party a favor can provide the wish "transport the party to a new location" effect. Give the party a "Sending" item and he can even scry on them, teleport in and then teleport them where they need to go without having to go find him.

A high level divine caster might give them favors worth one free ressurection each, which can be broken down into lesser healing (like a raise dead if they recovered the whole body plus mummy rot removal on a survivor and entire party healed to full hitpoints if the person who owns the favor is willing to share it around the party). This covers most of the Wish effects that heal the party. Some kind of "refuge" type spell could be provided to transport the injured to the caster, or again you can go with sending and assume the caster windwalks to you, or arrives in a bottle of smoke steed or some other flashy means of high level travel to arrive in time without the PCs having to interrupt their adventure.

A mercenary company might do a prison break or corpse retrieval for them, etc.

An expert blacksmith/crafter might repair a sundered item for free, including restoring enchantments to a similar power level (possibly not the same if said blacksmith doesn't have the right spells)

This can mitigate some of the bad outcomes of low level D&D play without putting the open-ended power in the hands of firsties and with no risk of breaking WBL assumptions.

On the whole, players also tend to enjoy having favors. It means that NPCs recognize they're having an effect on the world, and can lead to friendships, adventure hooks and other things (imagine later if the guy holding your healing favors gets kidnapped, or needs you to rescue a family member or something....the party will be pretty motivated to help out)

Some of these favors might be WORTH 10k gold or whatever but mostly keep the party from LOSING a bunch of time/wealth to recover from a setback. It accomplishes much of what you seem to want by granting an early wish without putting the party ahead of where they are, it just means a setback doesn't hose them.