Spellcasting that doesn't count as magical (but can be suppressed by Hallow)

[Greywander]

I was thinking about a possible tweak for the Witch class I was working on. Namely, that their spellcasting is so different that it doesn't count as being magical. This means anti-magic fields have no effect, nor does Dispel Magic, or Detect Magic. Instead, you'd choose whether your power is celestial, elemental, fey, fiendish, or undead in nature (this could instead be determined by subclass, as each subclass currently has a pretty strong relationship with one of those). Your spells are then detected with Detect Evil and Good, they are dispelled with Banishment, and a Hallowed area warded against that creature type is treated like an anti-magic field for your spells.

Though maybe this wouldn't be a blanket "this doesn't count as magical for anything". It would be interesting (and strong) if your spells could bypass Magic Resistance and similar traits that ward against magic and spells (though I suppose it's still technically a spell, even if it isn't magic, so maybe wards against spells would still work). But I'd think that things like Thorn Whip should be able to hurt creatures like werewolves. So maybe it would make more sense to just single out detection effects, dispel effects, and anti-magic effects.

I'd like to add aberrant as a possible power source, but for some reason aberrations aren't one of the creature types that you can ward against with Hallow, even though they are one of the creature types you can detect with DE&G. Hallow is also a few spell levels lower than Anti-Magic Field, so I don't know if that might end up being a problem (though Banishment is one level higher than Dispel Magic).

Thoughts on this? I just think it would be a kind of neat mechanical way to reinforce how unconventional witches are considered to be by other casters.

[JNAProductions]

I really question why this would be needed.

What about Witches make their magic immune to conventional dispels?

Warlocks can get their powers from all those sources (except Elemental, I think) and they have no exception.

[Greywander]

Why is anything needed? You could excise classes from the game entirely (so long as you provide another way to assign hit points to a character) and still have a playable game. And certainly a lot of classes have ribbon features that don't feel like they were really needed but might add some interesting flavor to the character. Things like Druidic or Thieves' Cant.

Inasmuch as any class feature is needed, the purpose of this would be to emphasize how weird the witch is compared to conventional casters. Most of the time, it wouldn't make a difference (if it was limited to just detection, dispelling, and anti-magic effects), and sometimes it would come back to bite you (e.g. if you need to enter a Hallowed area), and sometimes it would work to your advantage (e.g. fighting a beholder).

It was just a quick thought I had, but I like the idea and I made sure that each of the specific effects that no longer work have an alternative.

Edit: As for why it's immune to conventional dispels, it would be the equivalent of using an EMP to attempt to disrupt alien tech that isn't electronic in nature. Modern spellcasting is well studied and understood, which includes methods of countering that spellcasting. But witchcraft is an ancient and forgotten art, and even the witches themselves don't fully understand the power they wield. Another example would be like a neurosurgeon trying to cure someone of plague (which as far as I know isn't a neurological condition).

[PhantomSoul]

(OP)

From reading this, it sounds more like you want them to not count as Spells, but plausibly still count as Magical, rather than being non-Magical Spells. You could then say they duplicate the Effect of a Spell, but it's a curated set where you can then change any other aspect of the Spell freely.

I think the question of the Werewolf is a good one, though; I was anticipating you'd say you didn't want them affected (ie. it's an actual vine attacking the thing). I could then see a Feature around level 6 making the Curses (or whatever) bypass Resistance and Immunity as though they were Magical (à la Monk) if you wanted to give them that, though maybe it's the sort of Class where keeping it non-Magical is ideal (e.g. they're use Restraint-based solutions instead of Damage-based ones, so actually change how they approach the combat).

If actually not wanting to count them as Magic, that could work too, but you'll probably either want to create a category it counts as (more work, since there are lots of things that just deal with Magical vs. Non-Magical, but it works plenty well for treating Psionics as separate with the DM adjusting monsters in whatever way seems logical for a given monster) or just picking one of the categories for it to count as (where Non-Magical makes it weaker, but makes sense if you're tied to having it not be capital-M Magic).

[JNAProductions]

I really think you're making some assumptions that don't hold true.

"Witchcraft is an ancient and forgotten art"
And magic handed down by a god that's been around since existence started isn't?

Why is witchcraft so radically different, in a way that a Wizard (who studies), a Sorcerer (who is born magical), a Warlock (who can have power from Aberrations, Fey, Celestials, Undead, Fiends... The list goes on and on!), a Cleric (who gets their power from the gods), an Artificer (who gets power from tools), a Paladin (who gets power from their own convictions), a Bard (who gets power from stories or music)... Do you get the point?

[GeoffWatson]

I don't think it's a great idea. Witches are still magical, just like Warlocks. Unless "witch" means something totally different to common uses of the word.

I could see it for Rangers. "Ranger magic" is just "nature knowledge/tricks" that happen to use the spellcasting system to organise/balance it rather than writing a completely new system.

[Greywander]

"Witchcraft is an ancient and forgotten art"
And magic handed down by a god that's been around since existence started isn't?
That's fair. A very similar argument could be made that divine spellcasting shouldn't count as magic, and yet it does. Personally, I'd actually be okay with differentiating these different types of magic more, but that's beyond the scope of simply adding a new class to the game.

I could argue that witchcraft predates the gods, but I'm sure there would be numerous lore conflicts there. It would depend on the setting, and for official settings that might not hold true.

[PhantomSoul]

I could argue that witchcraft predates the gods, but I'm sure there would be numerous lore conflicts there. It would depend on the setting, and for official settings that might not hold true.

It doesn't seem unreasonable; the wondrous effects produced by the gods might not be mechanically the same as the wondrous effects produced by mortals in the realms, so maybe it's Mythical (or whatever) for the gods and Magical for mortals anyhow! (But that's pure homebrew anyway.)

[TaiLiu]

Personally, I'd actually be okay with differentiating these different types of magic more, but that's beyond the scope of simply adding a new class to the game.
I think if you're thinking about what interactions a witch's alien magic has with the rest of the world, you're partway through a metaphysics of magic and you might as well finish the job. :smalltongue:

[tKUUNK]

I like the flavor of it. Just a matter of balancing...

The easiest way to handle the whole "how does it interact with conventional magic?" question is to just say "It doesn't". So the witch won't be dispelling the wizard, and the wizard won't be counterspelling the witch. I actually kinda like this option, because it makes witches a little creepier to face off against.

If you want it to be more nuanced...hmmm. I agree detection & abjuration shouldn't overlap in the usual way. How would you handle Protection From Evil And Good (the 1st level spell)? Would that shield the recipient from witchcraft?

Perhaps conventional mages can be trained and/or use certain tools to be able to detect and counter witch magic. and vice versa. Cue quest for lore.

[fbelanger]

Supernatural power not being magical is a kind magic!

[Anymage]

Edit: As for why it's immune to conventional dispels, it would be the equivalent of using an EMP to attempt to disrupt alien tech that isn't electronic in nature. Modern spellcasting is well studied and understood, which includes methods of countering that spellcasting. But witchcraft is an ancient and forgotten art, and even the witches themselves don't fully understand the power they wield. Another example would be like a neurosurgeon trying to cure someone of plague (which as far as I know isn't a neurological condition).

Per the PHB, all mortal magic is mediated through the weave. If warlocks with various patrons as well as everything in the MM still have to work through that, it'll be odd if a witch (empowered by the sort of creature that could just as easily empower a warlock) gets a backdoor.

More important, though, is the mechanical side. Magic-psionic transparency in 3.5 happened because otherwise you'd have a lot of creatures that had no defenses against psionic abilities, because psionics were not a thing when the creatures were written. (And having to include psionic defenses in every book after that would be a lot of annoyance and bloat.) If a player wants to play a witch, do you really want your choices to boil down to expecting all important NPCs to have heard of this forgotten form of magic, or leaving them wide open to whatever this witch PC wants to try pulling off?


That's fair. A very similar argument could be made that divine spellcasting shouldn't count as magic, and yet it does. Personally, I'd actually be okay with differentiating these different types of magic more, but that's beyond the scope of simply adding a new class to the game.

I could argue that witchcraft predates the gods, but I'm sure there would be numerous lore conflicts there. It would depend on the setting, and for official settings that might not hold true.

In a different game, which might very well wind up being a D&D rulehack, this makes a lot of sense. "Magic" would be any method of imposing supernatural states on the mundane world. While there should be basic broad-based protections (mostly so every stronghold doesn't leave a gap in their protection if they don't reach out to every manner of supernatural being), certain types being more or less resistant to other types makes decent sense. IIRC the game Ars Magica did this, with the limitations and interactions for each major power source (arcane/divine/fae/infernal) being clearly spelled out and baked into the setting.

Doing this would require a lot more work on the core assumptions of your setting, however, and likely major overhauls to most of the classes. Every source would need their own spellcaster type with their own strengths, weaknesses, and limitations. D&D does come with a load of its own assumptions instead of being able to mimic any vaguely medieval fantasy story, and new tropes won't necessarily slot in smoothly.

[Spiritchaser]

So, the demarcation line that 5e makes between what counts as “background magic” like dragon’s breath weapons or a beholder’s levitation and what counts as “magical magic”, like a dragon’s shape shifting often seems more than a little arbitrary, so from that point of view, sure, I guess, have at it…

Except…

Dispel resistant magic is going to be nothing more than a ribbon much of the time.

If we restrict discussion to character levels 1-12, I submit it will come up very seldom or possibly even never in most campaigns.

Except those few where it comes up all the time, and will be a black and white power advantage of a very high order.

If too much of the class power is typed this way, then it’s going to be very tricky to balance for both.

Maybe a middle ground where a few magical powers are not dispelled by normal dispelling mechanics?

Enough to be strong in that scenario, but not enough to be bulletproof.