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SoD
2007-11-25, 03:28 AM
I know about unconciousness when at less then 0 HP, or due to spells, poison, etc. But are there rules for getting knocked out in DnD? You know, like the mugger creeping up on the unsuspecting PC in an alleyway at night and smashes them over the head with a whatever?

Seffbasilisk
2007-11-25, 03:30 AM
Flatfooted, so sneak-attack with a sap or similar weapon, damage over thier HP, they drop. That's the mugger.

Dhavaer
2007-11-25, 03:30 AM
Yes, non-lethal damage. If it equals your hp, you're staggered. If it exceeds your hp, you're unconscious.

Wraithy
2007-11-25, 05:44 AM
I thought non-lethal and sneak attack didn't mix?

for some reason I imagined the head smashing impliment as a frying pan:smallconfused:

Xefas
2007-11-25, 05:48 AM
I thought non-lethal and sneak attack didn't mix?

for some reason I imagined the head smashing impliment as a frying pan:smallconfused:

It mixes with Saps, Truncheons, and I think there's an Exalted Feat out there that does the trick.

Also, the Merciful quality on a weapon turns its Sneak Attack into nonlethal, I believe.

CthulhuM
2007-11-25, 05:58 AM
Alternatively, you can use sleep arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#sleepArrow), or a weapon coated with drow poison to put someone to sleep. As long as there's no one friendly around to wake them up, that's as good as being knocked unconscious.

Ossian
2007-11-25, 06:13 AM
Perfect timing for the OP...I was wondering myself if, for example, Conan the Barbarian was caught...unaware and the proverbial tavern maiden / zamoran slaver hit him on the head with, ok, the frying pan.
Conan (Alexandrian or not), will still have more HP than you can inflict with a pan, especially if you are a nimble and slender tavern maiden with 7 in STR. Damage is non lethal, granted, and let's double it for the automatic critical you want to inflict. It's.... what? 1d3 (-2) x 2....uh, between 2 and 2 HP....Conan can take more than that. Let's try with the Zamoran slaver. STR in average (10). NO sneak attack, warrior 1st. Uses a sap. Scores a crit....nah, still won't work.

Now, as a GM you could just HR that you're KO if you get a non lethal damage crit aimed at knockin you out and you are unaware. Still, anything more official in the books? FCOL, it happens all the times in fantasy books to all sorts of heroes :smalleek:

D20 modern seems to have a sort of soulution HERE (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/InjuryAndDeath.php) although I don't particularly like it.

O.

Xefas
2007-11-25, 06:20 AM
Perfect timing for the OP...I was wondering myself if, for example, Conan the Barbarian was caught...unaware and the proverbial tavern maiden / zamoran slaver hit him on the head with, ok, the frying pan.
Conan (Alexandrian or not), will still have more HP than you can inflict with a pan, especially if you are a nimble and slender tavern maiden with 7 in STR. Damage is non lethal, granted, and let's double it for the automatic critical you want to inflict. It's.... what? 1d3 (-2) x 2....uh, between 2 and 2 HP....Conan can take more than that. Let's try with the Zamoran slaver. STR in average (10). NO sneak attack, warrior 1st. Uses a sap. Scores a crit....nah, still won't work.

Now, as a GM you could just HR that you're KO if you get a non lethal damage crit aimed at knockin you out and you are unaware. Still, anything more official in the books? FCOL, it happens all the times in fantasy books to all sorts of heroes :smalleek:

D20 modern seems to have a sort of soulution HERE (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/InjuryAndDeath.php) although I don't particularly like it.

O.


Actually, you wouldn't auto-crit, and there's even a chance you'd miss in D&D, since they still have their flat-footed armor class. Yes, even if they aren't wearing a helmet and you have all the time in the world to position it right at the back of their head.

In D&D it can go one of two ways:

1) *smack* "Ow." *turns around and guts them, then uses the tavern door as a chokepoint to systematically gut every policeman in the entire city for the XP while they try to apprehend you*

2) *smack* *contingent celerity => timestop => forecage => cloudkill => plane shift to personal demiplane made via Genesis*

Iku Rex
2007-11-25, 06:30 AM
From the FAQ, on knocking people out:

What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a
weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a
weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace
still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to
make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what
happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a
normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup
de grace?
This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that
you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but
if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack,
try these:
When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that
deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a
critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a
creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal
damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would
normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the
subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook),
the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the
nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is
rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough
nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total
equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a
nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has
12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal
damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll,
however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails
the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22
(current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is
roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your
saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs
at –10 hit points.

Matthew
2007-11-25, 06:48 AM
Perfect timing for the OP...I was wondering myself if, for example, Conan the Barbarian was caught...unaware and the proverbial tavern maiden / zamoran slaver hit him on the head with, ok, the frying pan.
Conan (Alexandrian or not), will still have more HP than you can inflict with a pan, especially if you are a nimble and slender tavern maiden with 7 in STR. Damage is non lethal, granted, and let's double it for the automatic critical you want to inflict. It's.... what? 1d3 (-2) x 2....uh, between 2 and 2 HP....Conan can take more than that. Let's try with the Zamoran slaver. STR in average (10). NO sneak attack, warrior 1st. Uses a sap. Scores a crit....nah, still won't work.

Now, as a GM you could just HR that you're KO if you get a non lethal damage crit aimed at knockin you out and you are unaware. Still, anything more official in the books? FCOL, it happens all the times in fantasy books to all sorts of heroes :smalleek:

D20 modern seems to have a sort of soulution HERE (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/InjuryAndDeath.php) although I don't particularly like it.

I might use the following rule...


A Character may attempt to knock another of the same size or less out. He takes a -4 AB Penalty and on a successful hit and natural roll of 16-20, the target must make a Fortitude Saving Throw. Damage is all None Lethal. The DC of the Saving Throw is equal to 10 + Attacker's Strength Bonus, but the effects are as follows:

No effect - Saving Throw Successful
Dazed - Saving Throw Failed by 1-5
Stunned - Saving Throw Failed by 6-10
Unconscious - Saving Throw Failed by 11+

A Character wearing a Helmet reduces the effects by one step, though multiple effects stack.

I use something similar for my AD&D Game...

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-25, 06:52 AM
Perfect timing for the OP...I was wondering myself if, for example, Conan the Barbarian was caught...unaware and the proverbial tavern maiden / zamoran slaver hit him on the head with, ok, the frying pan.
Conan (Alexandrian or not), will still have more HP than you can inflict with a pan, especially if you are a nimble and slender tavern maiden with 7 in STR. Damage is non lethal, granted, and let's double it for the automatic critical you want to inflict. It's.... what? 1d3 (-2) x 2....uh, between 2 and 2 HP....Conan can take more than that. Let's try with the Zamoran slaver. STR in average (10). NO sneak attack, warrior 1st. Uses a sap. Scores a crit....nah, still won't work.

Now, as a GM you could just HR that you're KO if you get a non lethal damage crit aimed at knockin you out and you are unaware. Still, anything more official in the books? FCOL, it happens all the times in fantasy books to all sorts of heroes :smalleek:

D20 modern seems to have a sort of soulution HERE (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/InjuryAndDeath.php) although I don't particularly like it.

O.

PCs getting around level 5+ are getting into the realms of Marv or Rasputin, let alone the likes of Beowulf and Kratos. You're supposed to be able to get hit repeatedly by speeding cars, have a machine gun or three emptied into your gut, and call the executioner a panzy after the electric chair's Coup De Grace fails. Or, say how their great skill or plain ol' heroicness makes them avoid the brunt of the blow (using hp as an extraction and all).

Basically, you're not supposed to be able to be defeated by a frying pan wielding maiden. Heck, people can't even kill you with totally deadly poisons in D&D. In fact, once you get to a certain level, it's more of a loss for the ring on your pinky finger to get destroyed than for you to die.

Matthew
2007-11-25, 07:07 AM
I think he knows that, but is looking for a potential rule anyway.

Clementx
2007-11-25, 10:24 AM
Just guessing, but was Conan drunk? He could have been so wasted he was effectively helpless, thus the maid nonlethal-CdG'ed him, and he rolled a 1.

To extend the threshold/practicality of knocking people out (and to eliminate another save-or-die), I made massive damage a save vs unconsciousness when dealt more than one-half your hp in a single blow. Yes, this does mean when a blacksmith punches a lvl1 wizard, he is most likely going to be unconscious for 12 hours. This is on top of the normal CdG rules, should they stack.

Yeril
2007-11-25, 10:41 AM
The frying pan was actualy a +3 Vorpal Fryingpan of Mercy.

On a roll of natural 20 the creature is knocked out cold.

Ossian
2007-11-26, 06:07 AM
Just guessing, but was Conan drunk? He could have been so wasted he was effectively helpless, thus the maid nonlethal-CdG'ed him, and he rolled a 1.

To extend the threshold/practicality of knocking people out (and to eliminate another save-or-die), I made massive damage a save vs unconsciousness when dealt more than one-half your hp in a single blow. Yes, this does mean when a blacksmith punches a lvl1 wizard, he is most likely going to be unconscious for 12 hours. This is on top of the normal CdG rules, should they stack.

You can bet all your attacks per round Clementx that Conan was wasted beyond redemption. After all, they invented the Uncanny Dodge for Barbarians and Rogues (and he's got levels in both) AFTER his stories. The man seems to have spiderman's danger sense and extra eyes behind his head. So, maybehe was a poor example choice :smalltongue:
Anyway, I still like applying your other massive damage. It avouids insta-deaths and leaves the players with a chance of surviving. After all, if they get knocked out cold they can still be finished if the GM really wants (by why would you want your players dead?). Plus, it's fairly heroic, with a Dragonball Z flavor to it (huge blast that knocks your 100 HP fighter inside the mountain. KO, but regains consciousness still smoking and battle damaged hours later on a heap of debris...awesome)

O.

SoD
2007-11-29, 05:28 AM
Hows this for a house rule?

A player may make an attack with a bludgeoning weapon at a -4 (or -6 for a peircing/slashing weapon that can be used like that [flat side of greatsword, etc.]) penalty to attempt to knock an unaware opponant unconcious. The opponant must then make a fortitude save (either DC ??? or DC 10+damage dealt...what do you think?] or be knocked unconcious for 1d4 hours or until revived. A rogue may add his/her sneak attack bonus to damage. If the opponant is aware of the attacker or is wearing a helmet, they get a +3 circumstance bonus to their save. If aware and wearing a helmet, these results stack.

Hows it sound?

deadseashoals
2007-11-29, 05:41 AM
You know, KO'ing people like in the movies is likely to either cave in their skull, or just make them really mad.

Now if you're trying to get that cinematic effect, I'd say that you should only be able to do it while your opponent is even unaware. The only instances I can really think of where you get the one-hit KO in cinema while the opponent is aware is a haymaker from the hero. Weapons don't do that :smalltongue:

Also, it needs to be at least a standard action to do that, and maybe even a full-round action (that you can perform if you only have a standard, like charge, for the surprise rounds).

SoD
2007-11-29, 06:20 AM
Hows this for a house rule?

As a full round action a player may make an attack with a bludgeoning weapon at a -4 (or -6 for a peircing/slashing weapon that can be used like that [flat side of greatsword, etc.]) penalty to attempt to knock an unaware opponant unconcious. The opponant must then make a fortitude save (either DC ??? or DC 10+damage dealt...what do you think?] or be knocked unconcious for 1d4 hours or until revived. A rogue may add his/her sneak attack bonus to damage. If the opponant is aware of the attacker or is wearing a helmet, they get a +3 circumstance bonus to their save. If aware and wearing a helmet, these results stack.



Added full round action in. And what do we think about the required save?