Opinions on the Problems of the Battlerager, & Suggestions How to Fix Them?

[Polyphemus]

Basically as the title implies: what do you think are the Battlerager Barbarian's problems, and what solutions would you propose as a fix for those problems?
I'd like to chew on both the perceived problems, proposed solutions to them, and eventually present some kind of a rework over on the Homebrew Design board.

In the thread discussing the enforcement of racial restrictions, the Battlerager was a natural topic of discussion. After some discourse on that, and reading through another thread of Battlerager opinions that was juuust outside the window of allowable thread necromancy, I've decided to make a new one.

That old thread was, not unjustifiably, charitable toward the Battlerager, especially at lower levels. I am of the opinion that while its low level abilities aren't useless, they're still distinctly underwhelming, to the point that as a subclass the Battlerager is just absolutely forgettable.

This isn't unique to it, of course. Only about half the SCAG subclasses were good or distinct enough to get reprinted (i.e. Sun Soul Monk, Mastermind and Swashbuckler Rogue, Storm Sorcerer, Bladesinger Wizard) or otherwise still see a goodly amount of discussion when it comes to character building (Arcana Cleric and Oath of the Crown Paladin in particular, in my experience). Most of the rest have more or less fallen into obscurity (like I'll be honest, gun to my head, I would not remember the existence of the Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret Fighter without prompting) and the Battlerager, in my opinion, suffers heavily in this regard.
In my opinion, it's not just that the abilities are undertuned, it's that they are undertuned in a way that undermines the subclass having its own distinctive identity that makes it stick in the mind.

You have Barbarians that get so angry their rages have rages, you have Barbarians that get so angry it attunes them with animal totems, you have Barbarians that get so angry their great-great-grandparents' ghosts come out and punch people for them, you have Barbarians that get so religious it makes them too angry to die, you have Barbarians that get so angry it whips up a literal storm system around them, you have Barbarians that get so angry it mutates their bodies in various and sundry ways, you have Barbarians that get so angry, random magic happens.
Battleragers, accordingly, should be the Barbarians that become heavily-armored, usually-dwarven spike-balls that get so angry they tackle everything and everyone with their big big spikes, but it's like none of the mechanics make you feel like the whirligig of death you should, by all rights, be.

In my opinion, the core problems with the subclass are as follows:

The spiked armor item kind of sucks, increasingly going into mid-high levels
RAW there aren't any magical spiked armors or spiked armors that otherwise scale in AC or add magical damage or bonuses
While I appreciate that it doesn't require doing the Attack action to do it at all, unlike plenty of other bonus action attacks, that 1d4 damage is piddling, does not scale and, again, doesn't do magical damage
The temp HP ability at 6th level is also piddlingly low and does not scale well at all
The 10th level bonus action Dash is, at best, boring, and worse still, competes with the spiked armor attack
The capstone is ludicrously, insultingly weak for the level you get it, does not scale, and its damage isn't specified as magical, either


Some suggestions I would have to revamp it would be:

Give it Heavy Armor proficiency, let it Rage in Heavy Armor, let it do Fast Movement in Heavy Armor (which alone would do a lot in giving it a unique identity apart from the other subclasses, IMO)
Make the armor spikes some kind of subclass ability; the sort of thing where you can give an armor set the spikes over a short rest, as if/while you're attuning to it
Make the damage from spiked armor attacks magical at some point, probably 6th like with Moon Druids and Monks
Tune up the damage and/or make it scale, maybe d4->d6->d8, something like that
Tune up the temp HP at 6th level, maybe CON mod + proficiency or + level, and I don't think making it last past your rage wouldn't break anything, either
Something better than a bonus action dash at 10th level; I don't know what, exactly, but it's a low bar to clear
Capstone needs replacing. I like the spikes doing retributive damage, but that should be something you get at level 3, it should scale and not be 3 damage the whole time, and it should do magical damage at some point.


What are y'all's thoughts? Any problems I've overlooked, any solutions screaming out at you that I've missed, anything in my supposed solutions you vehemently disagree with?
I am all ears! :smallbiggrin:

[LudicSavant]

"Win-more refers to cards classified as only helping you "win even more" while you're already ahead. Many players view these spells negatively because if you're already winning, you don't need their power since you have the advantage, and if you're losing, they're not helpful."

I tend to view some of the Battle Rager's abilities as win-more cards for a class that already has narrow win conditions.

Get a little damage while grappling? Well, you already have good matchups against creatures that are dealt with effectively by grappling (as opposed to enemies who are too big, too teleporty, too numerous, or the like). This is unlikely to make it suddenly be awesome to grapple a foe who will just turn into a whirlwind of sand as a legendary action. It just makes you a bit better against the things you were already probably in a positive matchup against.

Get a little temp HP when recklessly attacking? Good for the matchups that Reckless Attack is already good for, barely makes a difference in the matchups it's bad for (like mook swarms, or monsters like the MPMM Enchanter or Orcus). Will rarely make it worthwhile to Reckless Attack when it wasn't already worthwhile to Reckless Attack.

Get some extra damage against people who are attacking you within 5 feet of you? You already like it when people decide to attack you within 5 feet of you.

See what I mean?

Aside from those, they have their bonus action attack (at the cost of wearing defensively-inferior armor), and bonus action movement. Both of those can't be used on the turn you rage, so the Battlerager is slow coming out of the starting gate (which is yet another thing that is bad news for the sort of matchups that are already bad for the Barbarian, and less of a big deal for the matchups that are already favorable for the Barbarian).

___

Contrast the better Barbarian subclasses, like Zealot. It adds a substantial amount of damage, which can help turn the tide in a lot of matchups (and makes you harder to simply ignore than Barbarians usually are). It can reroll saving throws, usually one of the Barbarian's big weaknesses. It can make wild sacrifice plays because even death itself is less costly for them. It can give Advantage on all attacks and saves for the party for a round as a bonus action, even when not in Rage (even if it's just 1/day). These are features that can make the worm turn, instead of just winning a bit harder when you already won.

Contrast another, like Ancestral Guardian. This one takes one of the Barbarian's problem scenarios ("the enemy just ignores me and hits my more valuable ally") and flips it on its head, making it so that allies are even tougher against a marked enemy's attacks than you yourself are. And at level 14, it even gets a better retribution mechanic than the Battlerager does (sure, it takes a Reaction, but it negates 4d6 damage, deals nearly as much retributive damage as 5 melee attacks against the battlerager, is Force damage so it's basically never resisted, and works against attackers within 30 feet instead of melee attackers within 5, and works against attacks on anyone in the party, not just you).

[Kane0]

Also another minor strike against the bonus action dash gained at level 10 is the Tashas level 7 feature Instinctive Pounce, which lets you move half your speed when you enter rage.

[Polyphemus]

Get a little temp HP when recklessly attacking? Good for the matchups that Reckless Attack is already good for, barely makes a difference in the matchups it's bad for (like mook swarms, or monsters like the MPMM Enchanter or Orcus). Will rarely make it worthwhile to Reckless Attack when it wasn't already worthwhile to Reckless Attack.

Get some extra damage against people who are attacking you within 5 feet of you? You already like it when people decide to attack you within 5 feet of you.

See what I mean?
I do, though I was thinking that moving the Spiked Retribution to Level 3, making its damage scale up and become magical, and bumping up the Temp HP you can generate at 6th at least has some synergy in that if your Temp HP generation gets good enough you could actually do a goodly amount of damage to swarms of mooks trying to pile on you and might not even eat into your actual HP that much, between your high AC (even with advantage against it), and damage resistances during Rage.
Of course that synergy does exacerbate a problem you cite later on, of

one of the Barbarian's problem scenarios ("the enemy just ignores me and hits my more valuable ally")
And I'll admit I don't really have a great solution to counter that problem. I've had an inkling of giving it some flat damage reduction on top of the Rage resistances at some point, in the vein of Heavy Armor Master, to further sell the idea of you being this heavily-armored juggernaut, but that just makes it even less tactically viable for the enemy to try attacking you in melee at all. Like, I really do enjoy the idea of "I'm so spiky, if they hit me in melee, they're the ones getting hurt," but it really does make it a problem to have melee enemies (smart ones, at least) keep trying to hit you if they're getting hit back for not-entirely-negligible damage and a far squishier target like a mage is, like, right there within Dashing distance.


Aside from those, they have their bonus action attack (at the cost of wearing defensively-inferior armor), and bonus action movement. Both of those can't be used on the turn you rage, so the Battlerager is slow coming out of the starting gate (which is yet another thing that is bad news for the sort of matchups that are already bad for the Barbarian, and less of a big deal for the matchups that are already favorable for the Barbarian).

This might sound like a stupid question, but what do you think are the sorts of enemies and situations that give a Barbarian a hard time? I can see a horde of enemies (a general problem for the vast majority of the martials, who seem more focused on single-target damage than AoE) and enemies that can target your most-likely-weak mental saves (unlucky rolls against a Hold Person kept me out of a fight entirely for like 5 rounds, once); what am I missing?
It could be a nice boost to give the Battlerager something that covers some of these gaps, though I'm also not looking to overtune it and make it too powerful, either.


Contrast the better Barbarian subclasses, like Zealot. It adds a substantial amount of damage, which can help turn the tide in a lot of matchups (and makes you harder to simply ignore than Barbarians usually are). It can reroll saving throws, usually one of the Barbarian's big weaknesses. It can make wild sacrifice plays because even death itself is less costly for them. It can give Advantage on all attacks and saves for the party for a round as a bonus action, even when not in Rage (even if it's just 1/day). These are features that can make the worm turn, instead of just winning a bit harder when you already won.
This is an area where I'm having trouble generating good solutions that aren't just yet more "Win-more" abilities, things that could instead cover gaps in the base Barbarian kit, while at the same time not going too far into explicitly magical territory. I've seen complaints about how magical the vast majority of the Barbarian subclasses are, and while I'm not in complete agreement with the idea that that's necessarily a bad thing, I would like to try and keep its base flavor as non-magical (or at least in the realm of the "Charles Atlas Superpower," to borrow a TV Tropes term) as I can.
To that effect, what I'm considering right now as possible replacements for the 10th and 14th level abilities would be some kind of ability akin to the Sword Burst cantrip: an at-will action, as probably a save against your STR or CON, that can do AoE in a 5-foot radius around the Battlerager, like you're just shoving into all the enemies around you and making them really feel those spikes of yours.
The other idea I have is playing more to the "Axe Idiot" title in the subclass's lore, something like "in the depths of your Rage, you become too dumb to fool," and maybe that could net you advantage on INT, WIS, and/or CHA saves? Something in that neighborhood, anyway, giving you a solution to the problem of often having rather sucky mental saves.


And at level 14, it even gets a better retribution mechanic than the Battlerager does (sure, it takes a Reaction, but it negates 4d6 damage, deals nearly as much retributive damage as 5 melee attacks against the battlerager, is Force damage so it's basically never resisted, and works against attackers within 30 feet instead of melee attackers within 5, and works against attacks on anyone in the party, not just you).
That is the kind of balancing act that might make rolling Spiked Retribution into your level 3 abilities a little harder to balance than I'm assuming; it's not a Reaction, so you're getting free damage every time you're hit in close melee. If the number's too high, you again get into the situation where the only winning move against you is to hit your friends, instead. If the number's too low, then you just feel like you're nickel-and-diming them.
But then you're not negating damage, to yourself or your friends, either; you want that passive damage, you're going to have to take a hit for it. With a low enough number (say, 3 nonmagical piercing at level 14 :smallyuk:), it's really not a tradeoff that's worth it to actually risk it, and that's what I think makes it a win-more; it feels more like gravy on top than a calculated risk-reward equation.


Also another minor strike against the bonus action dash gained at level 10 is the Tashas level 7 feature Instinctive Pounce, which lets you move half your speed when you enter rage.

...Oh, God, I'd completely forgotten about that ability. That's just adding insult to injury at this point. I don't even know if this should be in blue text, since I'm only half-joking, but that almost makes it seem like WotC themselves forgot Battlerager was a thing.

[stoutstien]

Ludic sums it up about perfectly. Strictly by the Numbers this subclass isn't that bad but but if a subclass is going to double down on a limited tool set it has to enhance those options to the point where they are amazing. The funny part is the battle rager isn't alone. The champion fighter, drunken Master monk, assassin rogue, and even the berserker barbarian borderline painfully trophish but miss the mark entirely.

I will say the battle rager fairs ok in featless games where both its extended action economy and movement options are as easily emulated

[Khosan]

Reading over it, I think I'd ditch armor spikes entirely as like...the thing. Agreed on Heavy Armor proficiency and allowing fast movement in it, that feels right, but armor spikes feel like a weird hill to stake a claim on. What I'd do instead is this:

While you are wearing Heavy Armor and raging, once per round as part of a Move action you may deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage to a creature you ended your movement adjacent to as you crash into them. For every 5 feet between your original position and your new position, the creature takes 1 additional point of bludgeoning damage.

First draft wording is a little awkward, but good enough for now. But the idea is instead of needing some specific armor, you're just physically throwing your entire, heavy, metal-covered body at someone at the end of a charge. The longer your charge, the more damage it deals. Battlerager Charge now ties into that with no changes necessary (but still might be welcome) because Dashing makes it better. Then you could do something with Reckless Abandon to encourage more wildly pinballing around combats.

I'd definitely workshop it a bit. A strict reading means you could strafe around someone and deal 1d4+1 damage for free by just moving 5 feet to the side, which isn't a lot, but it's weird and doesn't fit the flavor. And by the same logic, if you move out and charge back in to your original position as part of one move action (for whatever reason), that'd only deal 1d4 damage even though you're 'starting' some distance away. On the other hand, I'd also like players to be able to deal that damage to a creature they pass on a charge (i.e. shoulder-checking someone in your way) but not necessarily end your move next to, but that just adds extra complexity to how the bonus damage from distance moved is calculated.

[Akal Saris]

I played a battlerager in a game up to lvl 16, but after a while I talked with my DM and retrained out of the higher levels to switch to battlemaster fighter, so he was barb 4/ftr 12 at the end.

Some fixes we implemented:
- We allowed armor spikes to be attached to existing armor, so long as the armor's base AC didn't exceed that of "spiked armor." The spikes were non-magical but I think it would be a good fix to make them magical at L7 or so. I actually found them super useful throughout the campaign.
- The grapple damage we changed to scale with character level (I think we changed it to prof. bonus + str). It still wasn't much though. It actually mattered only once or twice.
- We didn't change the temp HP feature, which was largely useless to me since I had temp HP coming from another party member quite often.
- I didn't get to play with the higher level abilities since I took a look at them and switched to fighter :P

I think it would make sense to add/replace an ability with some sort of 'indomitable will' where you're so battle-mad that you ignore charms or reroll will saves or something.

[Kane0]

Also also, Barbarians REALLY benefit from abilities that function when they ARENT raging, and the pattern is usually at level 6. Now lets look at the Battlerager again and... well just look at that, the damage while grappling is the only thing that doesnt have a 'while you are raging' stapled to it.

[stoutstien]

Also also, Barbarians REALLY benefit from abilities that function when they ARENT raging, and the pattern is usually at level 6. Now lets look at the Battlerager again and... well just look at that, the damage while grappling is the only thing that doesnt have a 'while you are raging' stapled to it.
Arguably the grapple damage isn't tied to rage.

[Kane0]

So now that i've got some time i'll break down the Battlerager step by step:

Level 3: You get special spiked armor that you can bonus action attack while raging in and also deal a bit of damage while grappling.

So, this special spiked armor on its own is outmatched by both breastplate and halfplate by the lack of stealth disadvantage and +1 AC respectively, and locks you out of getting magical armor unless your DM is kind and customizes something for you. The spikes likewise can't be magical unless again your DM makes some allowances for you.
The bonus action attack is nice compared to the other notorious way of barbarian subclass bonus action attack, but is outmatched as soon as you take a look at ways to get BA attacks via feats. Being large doesn't even extend the reach. The 3 damage is only applicable to grapples originating specifically from the attack action and doesn't scale, so it's not likely to come up often nor make a significant difference.

Level 6: When you Reckless Attack while raging you get Con mod Temp HP

So typically this is 2-5 THP but could be as high as 7 at level 20 but otherwise again doesn't scale. They go away when you stop raging too, so you can't get inventive with them either. This is a marginal, purely combat buff at the stage where other subclasses are mostly giving you things that expand on your capabilities. At least it doesn't cost any actions nor is restricted by number of uses per rest, but that's damning with mild praise.

Level 10: BA dash while raging.

Orcs can do this at level 1, and are a good Barbarian race. There are feats that give you extra movement, other subclasses that give you extra movement sooner, other Barbarian class features that give you extra movement sooner and of course Rogue which does the same thing at level 2 and multiclasses great with Barbarian. This is not a good feature to hand out at level 10 even if you are playing a PHB/SCAG only game without feats or MCing.

Level 14: When an attacker within 5' hits you while raging they take 3 damage.

3 damage is insultingly low, even Heavy Armor Master combined with damage resistance reducing everything 3 doesn't look all that impressive in tiers 3 and 4. It doesn't scale, not that it has room to at this stage, and will take multiple hits to actually impact even CR 1/8 creatures but again at least it doesn't use your reaction. Other subclasses are just destroying this features

So, here's what I would suggest:
Level 3: You gain proficiency in heavy armor, and can rage while wearing heavy armor.
Level 3: You can affix spikes to any armor you wear (takes a short rest, only one armor at a time. When a creature successfully grapples you they take 1d4 piercing damage and while raging you can use your bonus action to attack or shove a creature using the spikes, both of which deal 1d4 + Str damage on a hit/successful grapple.

Level 6: You can expend a use of your Rage as a bonus action to gain 1d4 + Barbarian level Temporary HP, which last until you take a short or long rest. In addition, you regain one use of your Rage ability when you finish a short rest.

Level 10: When you take the Dash or Disengage action before attacking or shoving using your level 3 feature you gain advantage on the roll and deal additional damage equal to your barbarian level if you hit/successfully grapple.

Level 14: When a creature hits you with a melee attack you can use your reaction to make an attack or grapple attempt against the attacking creature using your armor spikes.

You might notice that this has some eerie similarities to the the Berserker subclass, specifically at levels 3 and 14. The 6th and 10th level features Mindless Rage and Intimidating Presence I think are great secondary features to merge with the 'Axe Idiot' spiked armor barbarian.

[Sorinth]

If you want to model that "wrecking ball" style where the BR charges into a group of enemies and sends them all flying/running then maybe consider some sort of melee AoE.

Hunter Ranger has some interesting things Horde Breaker and Whirlwind Attack are examples where you get extra attacks but have to split them which is like an AoE effect. But you could also just do straight up AoE damage, maybe equal to Rage damage+ (When using spiked armor attacks). It shouldn't be huge but with essentially 3 attacks (Extra + BA) it could add up. And it gives you that niche of Barbarians who deals well with hordes. Maybe also some sort of boosted Overrun type ability. That should help the fantasy of being a ball of death.

If you wanted to not create new stuff but just tweak the exisiting stuff then you really just have to be a little kinder in the wording and have some scaling. Like the 3 damage on grapple should happen regardless of who initiates the grapple and whether it was an action or bonus action. It should also happen every round the grapple is maintained, and it should also probably just be Str mod in damage, so it will start at 3 and then scale a bit. The Dash should come online sooner.

[Kane0]

If you want to model that "wrecking ball" style where the BR charges into a group of enemies and sends them all flying/running then maybe consider some sort of melee AoE.

Hunter Ranger has some interesting things Horde Breaker and Whirlwind Attack are examples where you get extra attacks but have to split them which is like an AoE effect. But you could also just do straight up AoE damage, maybe equal to Rage damage+ (When using spiked armor attacks). It shouldn't be huge but with essentially 3 attacks (Extra + BA) it could add up. And it gives you that niche of Barbarians who deals well with hordes. Maybe also some sort of boosted Overrun type ability. That should help the fantasy of being a ball of death.

What about the storm herald though?

[Sorinth]

What about the storm herald though?

I forget they exist. Yeah there would be an overlap there but in theory it's not bad to have the role covered with a non-magical solution and a magical solution.

[Kane0]

I forget they exist. Yeah there would be an overlap there but in theory it's not bad to have the role covered with a non-magical solution and a magical solution.

Haha I think most do, though given we are talking about the Battlerager it seemed pertinent.
Absolutely agree by the way. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?644074-Reworking-the-Storm-Herald-Barbarian)

[KorvinStarmast]

Basically as the title implies: what do you think are the Battlerager Barbarian's problems, and what solutions would you propose as a fix for those problems? I fixed the problems of the battlerager by hitting the 'delete' button.

Sword Coast Adventurers Guide was a mix of good and odd class updates, some of which needed another scrub before publishing. (Has Green Ronin gotten another deal to make a splat for 5e from WoTC? I think not). Sometimes, no matter how long you polish a turd it still won't shine.

See also Purple Dragon Knight: there was a kernel of a good idea in that sub class that didn't quite get there.

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, before we make too many changes, we should think about where the Battlerager even came from. Now, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the quintessential Battlerager, to me, is Thibbledorf Pwent. Looking at how he fought, he'd basically charge at a group of enemies and just leap into them, letting his armor rip them to shreds. Therefore, I would suggest something similar:


---Heavy Armor Proficiency---

You are proficient in Heavy Armor, and may Rage while wearing Heavy Armor. At level 5, you gain the benefits of Fast Movement even if you're wearing Heavy Armor.


---Tool Proficiency---

You are proficient in Smith's Tools.


---Spiked Armor---

You have learned how to modify armor. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you may use your Smith's Tools to add spikes to a set of armor. While wearing this armor, you gain the following benefits.

- Your Unarmed Strikes deal 1d6+Strength Piercing or Slashing damage

- When you grapple a creature, they take 1d6 Slashing or Piercing damage at the start of their turn

- You may use a Bonus Action to Dash. If you Dash in this manner, you may attempt to Dash through an enemy's space, but can only attack once this turn if you take the Attack action. The first time you Dash through another enemy's space, you may roll a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the creature’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If you succeed, that creature is knocked prone and takes 1d6 Piercing or Slashing damage.




---Magical Spikes---

The damage dealt by your Spiked Armor feature is considered Magical. Additionally, you may make a DC 16 Smith's Tools check at the end of a Long Rest to add +1 to attack and damage rolls made with your Spiked Armor.




---<Need a Name for This>---

Your Fast Movement increases your speed by 20 feet. You also ignore Difficult Terrain while moving through another creature's space, and creatures that have been knocked prone by you Dashing through their space cannot make an Attack of Opportunity.

Additionally, your Unarmored Strikes deal 1d8+Strength Modifier and the damage you deal when moving through an enemy's space increases to 1d8.




---Maddened Charge---

You may attack twice if you choose to Dash through an enemy's space. Additionally, the damage dealt by Dashing through a creature's space is increased to 2d8, and creatures take this damage even if they succeed on their opposed Strength(Athletics) or Dexterity(Acrobatics) check against being knocked Prone. Finally, you ignore size limitations to Grapple creatures or knock them Prone.

[Damon_Tor]

If you want to model that "wrecking ball" style where the BR charges into a group of enemies and sends them all flying/running then maybe consider some sort of melee AoE.

Hunter Ranger has some interesting things Horde Breaker and Whirlwind Attack are examples where you get extra attacks but have to split them which is like an AoE effect. But you could also just do straight up AoE damage, maybe equal to Rage damage+ (When using spiked armor attacks). It shouldn't be huge but with essentially 3 attacks (Extra + BA) it could add up. And it gives you that niche of Barbarians who deals well with hordes. Maybe also some sort of boosted Overrun type ability. That should help the fantasy of being a ball of death.

If you wanted to not create new stuff but just tweak the exisiting stuff then you really just have to be a little kinder in the wording and have some scaling. Like the 3 damage on grapple should happen regardless of who initiates the grapple and whether it was an action or bonus action. It should also happen every round the grapple is maintained, and it should also probably just be Str mod in damage, so it will start at 3 and then scale a bit. The Dash should come online sooner.

How about:


Battlerager Charge
Beginning at 10th level, you can use your action to make a special charge attack while raging. If you do, move up to your speed in a straight line. You can pass through enemy spaces during this movement. You can make one melee weapon attack using your Spiked Armor against each creature within 5 feet of you during this movement.

Not useful in every fight maybe, but worth its money against a horde, and it has a utility as a gap closer on round 1 of combat (where the current version isn't as viable because the bonus action conflicts with rage initiation)

[Kane0]

That's an interesting concept, we could work in the DMG Variant Overrun rule (p272) into a charge ability.

[LudicSavant]

This might sound like a stupid question, but what do you think are the sorts of enemies and situations that give a Barbarian a hard time? I can see a horde of enemies (a general problem for the vast majority of the martials, who seem more focused on single-target damage than AoE) and enemies that can target your most-likely-weak mental saves (unlucky rolls against a Hold Person kept me out of a fight entirely for like 5 rounds, once); what am I missing?

I can give some examples. Before I begin, it is worth noting that various subclasses, feats, races, or the like can change these matchups. This is more to help give an idea of where 'base' Barbarians are at for when we start building (or, as the case may be, redesigning a subclass).

Mook Swarms
It's not just a "single target vs AoE damage, like most martials" thing. It's also that, against mook swarms, chance to hit is extraordinarily impactful. Like, significantly moreso than Resistance. They'll also shred through Relentless Rage quickly.

Reckless Attack is particularly inadvisable (suicidal) against mook swarms.

Note this also includes matchups against enemies who create mook swarms, like Orcus, Drow Arachnomancer, Lich, or the CR12 Archdruid (who can upcast Conjure Animals all the way to 9th).

Mental Saves
Mental saves are very common, and tend to have more severe effects for failure than losing any other kind of save. For a Barbarian, they're even worse than normal, because many of them cause you to drop Rage in addition to the usual bad stuff.

What's more, things like fear hit Barbarians particularly hard. They just sort of... sit there, unable to close distance.

Also other saves
You're not nearly as bad at these as you are at mental saves, but you're still probably not especially great at them unless your subclass is bailing you out. Contrast a Paladin's aura, or a Fighter's Indomitable + bonus ASIs, or a Rogue being Dex-based and having Evasion.

Heavy Elemental Attacks
If you run afoul of, say, a CR5 Enchanter (from MPMM), it's not just the mental saves they can use to wreck your Barbarian. If you make the mistake of going Reckless GWM, you can skyrocket their DPR to around 50, which means they can take you down to 0 in one turn, because Rage won't block elemental damage (unless you're a Bear Totem, of course). Oh, and when you get knocked unconscious, rage turns off, yo-yoing won't fix that.

Now you might think "but wait, I still have a d12 HD, even if Resistance doesn't protect me!" Sure, that's true. It just doesn't, like, matter that much. See, a d12 HD is only +1 HP/level over a Fighter's d10, and, as it turns out, +1 hp/level is worth less than Second Wind, or an AC bump, or a bonus ASI, or a dash of temp HP. HD size is one of the smaller variables in determining overall survivability. If you're throwing caution to the wind and going two-handed reckless, then you can be hurt plenty.

Bypassing Death Gates
Not only will a foe like Orcus create mook swarms and hit you with heavy elemental attacks, he'll also bypass Relentless Rage by using Power Word Kill as a Lair Action.

Kiting/Control
This is a big one. If a Paladin gets stuck out of range, they can probably whip out some other decent action like casting Bless or Lay on Hands or something. A Barbarian stuck out of range is generally not so fortunate.

You even have to worry about things like "if I take this turn Dashing, will I lose Rage?"

Kiting/Control can take so, so, so many forms. It could be a dragon using its Legendary Wing Attack to knock you prone and fly off to eat someone else. It could be a Mummy Lord turning into a Whirlwind of Sand and moving 60 feet as a Legendary Action. It could be any of those guys with 120 foot Legendary teleports. It could be a lair action creating walls or difficult terrain. It could just be some dude with a ranged attack in a sniper perch. It could be a Phoenix doing flyby attacks and slipping through 1 inch cracks in the dungeon layout. It could be a CR 10 Summer Eladrin who teleports out of your grapple as a bonus action, moves 50 feet, and fires flame arrows at you... all while you also are making saves against their passive fear aura. It could be a fire immune creature sitting inside a Wall of Fire circle. It could be any of a thousand things.

So yeah, Barbarians want all the mobility they can get. Or improvements to their non-melee options.

Retributive Effects
There's a bunch of monsters, like Venom Troll or Remorhaz or Azer or Balor or Salamander or anyone with Fire Shield, that do retributive elemental damage if you hit them with melee attacks within 5 feet of them. Barbarians tend to have a worse time adapting to these foes than many other martials. If you're using a glaive, you're in better shape, though that might still involve eating OAs to get out of their reach (depending on which monster it is).

There are also various other effects that punish players for getting close. This goes back to Barbarians generally having a weakness to "not getting in close." Moreso even than other melee martials.

Enemies Who Can Ignore You
As a Legendary action, the dragon uses Wing Attack, knocks you prone, and flies 40 feet away to nom on your back line. While doing so, it simultaneously activates its Frightening Presence and you have to make a Wisdom save or be unable to approach it. As a Lair action, it creates troublesome terrain for everyone -- including you.

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Like I said, subclasses/feats/races/whatever might help change up these matchups. The above is more to help give an idea of where 'base' Barbarians are at for when we start building (or, as the case may be, redesigning a subclass).

Many of the better Barbarian subclasses are regarded as such because they help alleviate some of these issues (for example, the Ancestral Guardian would stop that dragon from just ignoring them when choosing who to Multiattack. They also could make their piddly handaxe throw actually mean something because it'd still mark a foe for the ancestors).


Ludic sums it up about perfectly. Strictly by the Numbers this subclass isn't that bad but but if a subclass is going to double down on a limited tool set it has to enhance those options to the point where they are amazing.

Yeah, pretty much.

The Battlerager's abilities are largely things that make you better in matchups the Barbarian already wins (people who decide to punch them in melee for modest amounts of damage at a time, people who are vulnerable to grappling, enemies who won't exploit them taking a lesser AC because of Spiked Armor, etc). The main exception is their bonus action move, though that is somewhat limited by the fact that it can only happen while raging, but not on round 1 of rage.

[Sorinth]

How about:


Battlerager Charge
Beginning at 10th level, you can use your action to make a special charge attack while raging. If you do, move up to your speed in a straight line. You can pass through enemy spaces during this movement. You can make one melee weapon attack using your Spiked Armor against each creature within 5 feet of you during this movement.

Not useful in every fight maybe, but worth its money against a horde, and it has a utility as a gap closer on round 1 of combat (where the current version isn't as viable because the bonus action conflicts with rage initiation)

Yeah that's the sort of thing I had in mind. I'd be tempted to enable the feature at level 3/6, but limit it to the creatures you actually overrun and then boost it at level 10, either by adding those adjacent enemies and/or adding a save to prone.

I think you'd also want to word it so that it works with the Charger feat just because it would be one of the few occasions where you might consider that feat. Though you might need to enable the special Dash action to trigger Rage in that case, that way it's also something that will come up if during a fight you lose rage, you re-enter the rage as part of your charge.