how unstoppable is "nigh unstoppable"?

[krossbow]

Hmmm. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html just going over old comics, and it got me to thinking; just how powerful was Nale and Elan's father's army? For that matter, if its still around and maintained by him
or, if many have theorized, they're father is the infamous lord tyrannus, which would indicated that, not only is it around, but its the force of a very powerful, lawful evil kingdom
what would it take to down it? Is it possible that this army would be much greater than the one possessed by xycon, or do you think his powers and those of redcloak bring them up to a level surpassing said army?

[factotum]

Xykon and Redcloak between them are extremely powerful, but given sufficient enemies, they could be defeated--for example, there's only a certain number of times Xykon can use his most powerful magic in a day. Given that, a sufficiently large army would simply exhaust all Xykon's offensive magic and then overrun him. Therefore there is no such thing as "unstoppable", either for Xykon OR his opposition...

[Angafirith]

Xykon and Redcloak between them are extremely powerful, but given sufficient enemies, they could be defeated--for example, there's only a certain number of times Xykon can use his most powerful magic in a day. Given that, a sufficiently large army would simply exhaust all Xykon's offensive magic and then overrun him. Therefore there is no such thing as "unstoppable", either for Xykon OR his opposition...

Don't forget that Xykon has his own army and is unlikely to stay anywhere that he'd actually be in danger. If all the hobgoblins were to die off and he was against a large army, I bet he'd take out what he could and then run for it. Perhaps he'd attack again the next day.

[Kurald Galain]

Assuming they're all high-level... Tyranus is a fighter-type. Xykon and Redcloak are casters. That's not a contest.

[boomwolf]

Unless he has an anti-caster build with anti-magic field generating items. then he has a fair fight. (or even an easy one if they have no self empoering spells.)

on any note, the army plays a big role. if his army is twice the size of X's, he wins easy.
same size? it depends on how good is soldiers are, but its an even match as you can assume they can take hobgobs in 1on1 easy. (the AC army took out 1for1 when they had a 3 to 1 disadvantage.) leaving the undead the only problem, and they are few.
If the army is like AC's former army, then X will win, but in a high cost.

[TheGreatJabu]

http://photo.ringo.com/243/243260968O835168391.jpg


It's this unstoppable.

[Prowl]

"Nigh" means "near"

So technically it's not unstoppable but close to it. But don't read too much into it, it simply means that it's a formidable force that hasn't met its match. There's no "unstoppable" property for an army.

[Kurald Galain]

same size? it depends on how good is soldiers are, but its an even match as you can assume they can take hobgobs in 1on1 easy.

Well, except that Redcloak's strategy started out as "let's kill as many hobgoblins as possible", and he became very effective once he dropped that idea.

[derfenrirwolv]

Neigh unstoppable (adjective)

In fantasy literature, Neigh unstoppable means it can ONLY be stopped by a band of unlikely misfit adventurers who, according to all the rules of reason and sense should have no chance of doing so.

[Kurald Galain]

Neigh unstoppable (adjective)

That means they can only be stopped by horses...

[Setra]

Assuming they're all high-level... Tyranus is a fighter-type. Xykon and Redcloak are casters. That's not a contest.
The difference is that Redcloak isn't optimized (and doesn't seem to wear armor), and Xykon is a blaster.

A well optimized MONK could probably wipe the floor with the both of them.

[kpenguin]

I think Nale's exaggerating.

[VanBuren]

The difference is that Redcloak isn't optimized (and doesn't seem to wear armor), and Xykon is a blaster.

A well optimized MONK could probably wipe the floor with the both of them.

Yeah, but isn't the Monk pretty much the Anti-caster Melee class? I mean, you could smoke all the pot in the world and you wouldn't get as high as their saves.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, but isn't the Monk pretty much the Anti-caster Melee class? I mean, you could smoke all the pot in the world and you wouldn't get as high as their saves.

Ugh, let's not go into that debate again, okay? The short answer is "no". The long answer is "absolutely not, any halfway-decent caster will completely wipe the floor with a monk".

(Hint 1: spell focus and prime ability boost. Hint 2: spells with no saving throw)

[DreadSpoon]

how unstoppable is "nigh unstoppable"?

Since every nigh unstoppable villain in the history of fiction has been defeated, we can postulate "nigh unstoppable" is equivalent to being the exact opposite of regular unstoppable.

[Chronos]

The difference is that Redcloak isn't optimized (and doesn't seem to wear armor), and Xykon is a blaster.Xykon also has a nifty template which goes a long way to neutralizing what few weaknesses an arcane caster has, and we've seen him use a fair few non-blasty spells (Overland Flight, Symbol of Insanity, Energy Drain...). And Redcloak? Not only is it pretty hard to not optimize a cleric, but he's wearing a friggin' major artifact. So no, I don't think either of them would have much of a problem with anything, unless the Power of Plot demanded otherwise.

[Querzis]

So no, I don't think either of them would have much of a problem with anything, unless the Power of Plot demanded otherwise.

Soon disagree with you. Any epic level character could probably beat them, we know almost nothing about the OOTS world and it seems the OOTS themselves barely know anything about their world. There could be lots of way more powerfull hero and villains then Xykon and the Order of the rift around, its just that nobody else heard about the gates and the Snarl.

Anyway, as for Nale and Elan father, we know almost nothing about him but since apparently his army attacked and conquered many other country, its logical to think that his soldiers gained lots of levels and are stronger then AC soldiers and Xykon hobgobelins...but as long as we dont know how many soldier he got left after attacking other country we cant tell how powerfull he is.

[Wolfwood2]

Xykon also has a nifty template which goes a long way to neutralizing what few weaknesses an arcane caster has, and we've seen him use a fair few non-blasty spells (Overland Flight, Symbol of Insanity, Energy Drain...). And Redcloak? Not only is it pretty hard to not optimize a cleric, but he's wearing a friggin' major artifact. So no, I don't think either of them would have much of a problem with anything, unless the Power of Plot demanded otherwise.

But still, they're not optimized. They also seem to lack any teleportation magic for emergency get-aways.

A high level fighter type with an army (and some mid-level support) could potentially deal with them. Xykon is not Batman, he doesn't hide his phylactery on another plane, and both he and Redcloak could be beaten down with enough hitpoint damage.

[Darkness_Elemen]

A sorcerer that powerful doesn't engage opponents, he alters the course of entire battles. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html)

At maximum, Xykon can kill around 800 low level soldiers per casting of Meteor Swarm (4 40ft radius spreads: pi*(40)^2=5026.5/5^2 = 201 squares affected, *4 = 804 squares). A fireball affects 50 squares, and a lightning bolt about 48. That assumes that the soldiers are packed together, but a certain amount of packing is inevitable if an army is going to fight effectively.

Redcloak's Titanium Elementals seem to be basically Earth Elementals. Large and larger Earth Elementals have DR 5/-, 10 ft reach, and Great Cleave, so they would probably be at least as effective as Xykon's blasting spells.

With Improved Invis and Overland flight, Xykon could theoretically hang out over an army and rain down fire with little fear of retaliation, and could certainly retreat easily. As a Cleric, Redcloak can cast Word of Recall, a teleportation spell.

So I don't think they'd have a problem killing off an army, or at least routing one. In a field battle, they could probably take one the size of AC's (9000 men). A larger army would take them a day or two, but any army would have little way of forcing them to stay engaged once they'd dumped their spells for the day.

As far as high level fighter types go, Magic is generally > Steel at high level. Antimagic fields would indeed pose a problem, though. MkDJ takes down Antimagic fields, but Xykon probably doesn't have it. Certain spells, like Telekinesis and Wall of Steel, produce effects that can deal damage even to those in an Antimagic Field. Redcloaks Elementals could also throw boulders or something. Also, a grounded warrior in an Antimagic Field would be a sitting duck for massed arrow fire.

Incidentally, this (http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showpost.php?p=1029552&postcount=32) is what happend when a midlevel Druid got mad at an army in one person's campain.

[Green Bean]

Heck, if Xykon still has the Bouncy Ball of Insanity on him, he won't even need to cast any spells.

[Jayabalard]

"absolutely not, any halfway-decent caster will completely wipe the floor with a monk".
Again, we're not talking about halfway decent casters, we're talking about redcloak and xykon.

[Darkness_Elemen]

Again, we're not talking about halfway decent casters, we're talking about redcloak and xykon.

Xykon's problem isn't his build, it's his utter lack of common sense. Effective tactics are things that happen to him, not that are used by him.

A monk has little way to engage foes at range. Xykon's flight spells would give a huge advantage in all but the most enclosed areas. Would that is, if he wasn't Xykon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)

Edit: Looks like I have to take all that back. Xykon notes at the end of that strip that he could have just hovered over the Palies and killed them with fire and lightning, so I guess he does know how to take out grounded foes.

[dragoncmd]

Assuming they're all high-level... Tyranus is a fighter-type. Xykon and Redcloak are casters. That's not a contest.

You mean the same level and the fighter has non-magical gear. Otherwise, it could be a fair fight.

[Kurald Galain]

You mean the same level and the fighter has non-magical gear. Otherwise, it could be a fair fight.

Not even close. You're pitting a top-tier character against a bottom-tier character, and asking who will win. That would only be a fair fight if individual classes were balanced against one another. However, it is a well-known fact in third edition D&D that, from level 12 or so (possibly earlier, even), casters completely own, dominate, and destroy non-casters. Giving both sides wealth-by-level magical items doesn't change that one bit.

[Crimson Avenger]

I always get a kick out this argument. Spellcaster vs fighters

The flying disadvantage is overrated, winged boots solve that. Fighter has to cross a vast distance, geez... that's what hems of teleportation are for after all. Feats prevent casters from using concentration to cast on the defensive, and if you move and then cast a spell (if over 5 ft) you provoke that all important AoO. Unhittable AC, really...one Greater Dispel in a spell storing item takes care of that too. And all of this takes time...give me 10 rounds to buff up, and I'll pwn your character every time too. Fighters really shine when you don't have two minutes to buff up for that encounter, which should be MOST encounters

I'm not saying that casters aren't fabulous creatures that aren't deserving of glory or praise, but I am saying taht if you think casters at 12th level and beyond primarily dominate over melee characters, you haven't been fighting the right kind of fighters.

[Kurald Galain]

Contingencied Dimension Door + Quickened True Strike + Maximized Shivering Touch proves you wrong. And that was with zero rounds to buff up, and not using any spells above 6th level.

[Querzis]

I'm not saying that casters aren't fabulous creatures that aren't deserving of glory or praise, but I am saying taht if you think casters at 12th level and beyond primarily dominate over melee characters, you haven't been fighting the right kind of fighters.

Thats not really it, its more like fighters would won if it was a real fight and not players reading books to chose their spells. How much time does a round last for the characters? 10 seconds. Now any player playing a fighter will probably take that much time to play «I run toward this guy and hit him». But wizards? Already saw a wizard who spent 20 minutes on his turn. He went to read the monster description in the manual and read all of is spells and did about 10 knowledge checks. And Batman wizard are even worse. Ok so if you know what and when you are gonna fight something as well as all the enemies ability you can win by getting the right spells and the right items...great and you do realize that NEVER happen? When your batman wizard get sneak attacked by a rogue, as only 20 hp left and 10 second to do something what is he gonna do? Hes probably gonna panick and cast fireball to die right after that.

If you wanna have fun do a game like mine. Most of the casters who were in that game dont like me much now but it was still great. A round is supposed to last 10 seconds so I made a custom rule saying that players had 30 seconds to play. Everyone were level 20 since at that level caster are supposed to be so much better then fighters...But half of the time with that custom rule the casters woudnt have the time to play and when they did play they were just yelling a spell after 29 seconds. Of course, the most priceless moment was when the guy who was always playing 'batman' wizard yelled fireball at the end of his turn...not meteor swarm, not even maximized fireball, just a normal fireball who hit half of his teamates. Only the cleric, who pretty much only used his spells to heal people was doing pretty good.

So yeah, lets just say all the casters except the cleric said they would never play a game with me as the DM ever again while me, the ranger, the fighter, the rogue and the cleric were laughing.

Casters arent overpowered at all compared to the non-casters (well, except of course clerics and druids but CoDzilla doesnt count). The wizard or the sorcerer see a big guy charging him with a greataxe. The big guy just have to swing his axe while the wizard or the sorcerer got hundred of spells in his head and REALLY dont have the time to chose which one would be the best against the big guy, especially since he doesnt actually have 10 seconds to think about it, more like 2 seconds and the rest is used to cast the spell.

[Kurald Galain]

Thats not really it, its more like fighters would won if it was a real fight and not players reading books to chose their spells.

Well, sure, if you use DM intervention to nerf casters, then they become less effective. That's houseruling though, and doesn't say anything about actual power level. You're making a classic Oberoni fallacy.

Btw a cleric and druid are both casters. And your nerf only works against inexperienced players, because a regular player will know perfectly well how to react to something as trivial as a charging barbarian.

[Crimson Avenger]

OK Kiruld, I'll take that bet, and I'm not even familliar with Shivering Touch

It goes like this:

ROUND ONE
wizard: aha contingencied Dim Door, Qui.....
fighter: *SLAM*, *SLAM*, *SLAM*...oh wait, I was Hasted...*SLAM*.
wizard: *gurgle*
fighter: "next!"


(for those of you who didn't notice, he tried to Dim Door, and then do something else. I pwned his behind.)

By the way, what is Shivering Touch?

[Kurald Galain]

OK Kiruld, I'll take that bet, and I'm not even familliar with Shivering Touch

You're apparently not familiar with Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) either?

Oh, and you can't make both a move and a full attack.

[Querzis]

Well, sure, if you use DM intervention to nerf casters, then they become less effective. That's houseruling though, and doesn't say anything about actual power level.

Oh I totally realize the rules allow batman wizard, just saying that while players can do that, their characters coudnt which is why I say non-caster would win if it was a real fight.


Btw a cleric and druid are both casters.

They are caster stronger then a fighter or a barbarian in melee fight. Which is why even with that houserule, a cleric or a druid would still beat anyone. Seriously, with the right buff or the dire bear form, they can beat any non-casters without using any other spells so I dont consider them casters, I consider them CoDzilla.


And your nerf only works against inexperienced players, because a regular player will know perfectly well how to react to something as trivial as a charging barbarian.

...You are totally missing the point, I'm not talking about the players but the characters. If you would be the wizard, you woudnt think that the big guy charging you is something trivial and thinking just 3 seconds about which spells to use would be the difference between life and death.

[Prince_Rohan]

.

Superman (who is nigh unstoppable) would SO kick Mighty Mouses ass!


"Nigh" means "near"

So technically it's not unstoppable but close to it. But don't read too much into it,... .

"Don't read too much into it" ?!?!? Do you even know where it is that you are posting?

.

[Crimson Avenger]

Not to be condiscending, but you want to read contingency again. It is quite specific in that the spell you cont. is "cast" at the time your contingency takes place. Dim Door is very specific about you being able to take no further actions in that round, that means free-bes too.

I still don't know what Shivering Touch does, but sounds like a touch spell. If you're trying to hit me with a touch spell, why do I have to move to retaliate

[Kurald Galain]

Oh I totally realize the rules allow batman wizard, just saying that while players can do that, their characters coudnt which is why I say non-caster would win if it was a real fight.
I would actually argue the opposite - that the characters can do it (because the rules allow it), but the players can't (because a decent DM won't allow a single character to outshine the rest, and a decent group wouldn't want to play with him). But last time I checked this thread was about characters, not players.



If you would be the wizard, you woudnt think that the big guy charging you is something trivial and thinking just 3 seconds about which spells to use would be the difference between life and death.
That's what the high intelligence score is for - quick thinking. High-level wizards are vastly more intelligent than any real-life human.




Not to be condiscending, but you want to read contingency again. It is quite specific in that the spell you cont. is "cast" at the time your contingency takes place.
It says it comes into effect at that time, instantaneously. So what is your point exactly? Fighter runs into melee range, wizard poofs away as a reaction (generally a couple hundred feet straight up), fighter can't attack because wiz is now out of range. That's a common strategy.



Dim Door is very specific about you being able to take no further actions in that round, that means free-bes too.
Yes, you can't take actions until your next turn. But the Dimdoor takes effect in the fighter's turn. The wizard then acts in his own turn. Even if the wizard had to wait a turn, Dimdoor can take him well out of charge range regardless.

Maximized Shivering Touch reduces your dexterity by 18. Yes, it's a touch spell, but there are numerous ways around that (familiars, arcane reach, spectral hand), and there are numerous things the wiz can do at range, as well, like oh say Enervation.

Also, the wizard can move up and cast a spell, whereas the fighter can't move up and full attack. You'll find that at high level, putting a full attack on just about anything is very difficult, and putting one on a caster is pretty much impossible. Unless, of course, your DM compensates for this difference in power levels - which would be good DM'ing, but then we're talking Oberoni again.

[Crimson Avenger]

.

Superman (who is nigh unstoppable) would SO kick Mighty Mouses ass!

.

Yup, after all MM was routinely thrown for a loop by evil cartoon animals

[Crimson Avenger]

And I was serious about wanting to know what "Shivering Touch" does Kiruld. I noticed it wasn't one of the spells on your handy-dandy link. What book is that from.

[Darkness_Elemen]

...You are totally missing the point, I'm not talking about the players but the characters. If you would be the wizard, you woudn't think that the big guy charging you is something trivial and thinking just 3 seconds about which spells to use would be the difference between life and death.

If you knew you could stop the big guy's heart with a word and a gesture, you might think he was trivial.

And, as a by the by, using a helm of teleportation is a standard action, so you can't use one and attack before the target gets another turn. Also, to unload multiple strikes, you have to somehow prevent the target from moving away from you, 'cause you can't do a full attack and move in the same round. Finally, if you try to use a Helm of Teleportation in a supprise attack, there's a decent chance you'll wind up off target.

Fighters aren't hopelessly, can't win a fight no mater what, outmatched by casters, but the odds favor the caster. By kind of a lot.

[Crimson Avenger]

I wasn't trying to say you could use a Helm of Teleportation and attack, just giving an example of moving in an instant. The multiple attacks....still don't know what shivering touch does???

I was pointing out that the use of Dim Door, even through contingency, effectivly ends your turn, and if you were trying to deliver a touch spell, BANG!

[Darkness_Elemen]

FireLance
09-29-04, 05:33 AM
Those of you who have Frostburn, take a look at page 104. Shivering touch is a new 3rd-level cleric and sorcerer/wizard spell which does 3d6 points of Dexterity damage, requires a melee touch attack and gives no saving throw (but allows Spell Resistance).

Maximize it and you get a 6th-level spell that does 18 points of Dexterity damage - enough to make almost any creature helpless. Dragons, in particular, tend to have Dexterity scores of 10.

I smell potential errata here. The spell has a duration, so it was probably meant to impose a Dexterity penalty instead of dealing Dexterity damage. Like ray of enfeeblement, I would also put in a clause to say that Dexterity cannot be reduced to less than 1 as a result of this spell.

What do you think?

From the Google cache of an En-World page. It's a broken spell from the Frostburn expansion book.

At this juncture, I would like to point out that the wizard-beats-fighter thing doesn't nessearily depend on broken spells, fly+G. Dispel(to prevent enemies from flying) would work pretty good too.

Edit: Oops, Kurald Galain already posted pretty much all of this.

[Kurald Galain]

I wasn't trying to say you could use a Helm of Teleportation and attack, just giving an example of moving in an instant. The multiple attacks....still don't know what shivering touch does???
I was editing my previous post to answer that - see above.


Other fun things to do against fighters... float out of reach and nuke 'em till they glow... or drop a Prismatic Sphere around them then cast Reverse Gravity... or trap them in Solid Fog to stall them long enough for anything else... or Summon Monsters that fight better than he does... or Enervate their level down then disintegrate them.

Larry Niven said it best :smallbiggrin:

[Crimson Avenger]

Ah...so that's Shivering Touch. Nice

There's another spell called Moon something that does something similar wtih strength....5d4 I think.

And to Kirald, I dinna know you were trying to move out of combat, your post was worded in a way to imply you were moving INTO combat.

[Crimson Avenger]

Summon a monster that fights better..

It is good to see you have a sense of humor.

[Green Bean]

Summon a monster that fights better..

It is good to see you have a sense of humor.

Gate. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) How many CR 23 Solars is your Fighter up to soloing?

[Crimson Avenger]

considering PC's usual alignments...

As many as you can gate.

[Green Bean]

considering PC's usual alignments...

As many as you can gate.

I'm not really seeing the relevance. :smallconfused:

[TheGreatJabu]

I see now that my far-earlier joke was wasted on a thread that quickly devolved into a mechanics-debate. Bill Nye would be ashamed that I used his image in vain. :smallfrown:

[krossbow]

Simple way to beat the fighter. Transmute stone to mud, then a quickened mud to stone (or for that matter, if you win initiative, hold your turn and go at the end of the turn. The fighter charges you and gets a hit off. You Then use transmute stone to mud at the end of the turn, act normally, and cast mud to stone with concentration checks to avoid provoking attack of opportunities. Or hell, a 5 foot step back before hand assuming he's not wielding a reach weapon)




Yeah, doesn't end well for the warrior.

[yoshi927]

Xykon and Redcloak between them are extremely powerful, but given sufficient enemies, they could be defeated--for example, there's only a certain number of times Xykon can use his most powerful magic in a day. Given that, a sufficiently large army would simply exhaust all Xykon's offensive magic and then overrun him. Therefore there is no such thing as "unstoppable", either for Xykon OR his opposition... If he has a plane-hopping spell, he could probably just run whenever he's out of offensive magic and rest up for the day.

[Crimson Avenger]

[QUOTE=h_v;3573688]I'm not really seeing the relevance. [QUOTE]

I was refering to the fact that calling a single solar makes casting the gate a [Good, Lawful] spell, and it might object to being ordered to destroy a powerful good force in the universe. Theoretically, by the wording of the spell, you could compel it to battle for one battle on your behalf, but such a proposition is dangerous at best. Piss off a solar with a gate summoning, and you will find an angry solar in your wheaties the next morning looking for retribution, so bring on the gated solar.

Besides, how many gates can YOU memorize per day.

[Crimson Avenger]

Simple way to beat the fighter. Transmute stone to mud, then a quickened mud to stone (or for that matter, if you win initiative, hold your turn and go at the end of the turn. The fighter charges you and gets a hit off. You Then use transmute stone to mud at the end of the turn, act normally, and cast mud to stone with concentration checks to avoid provoking attack of opportunities. Or hell, a 5 foot step back before hand assuming he's not wielding a reach weapon)




Yeah, doesn't end well for the warrior.

That is a very handy way to catch...anything.

Except...the only way to catch them in a charge is to ready an action, which means it goes off as soon as the charge is started, and ends the charge because of difficult terrain. So the fighter uses his movement to get out of the mud. Unfortunately, Quickened is no longer a FREE action. It is now a swift action, so you can't get that off in the same round you ready (only one standard action). That and the fact the Quicken adds six? levels to the spell, making a quick rock/mud an 11th level spell.

[Kurald Galain]

I was refering to the fact that calling a single solar makes casting the gate a [Good, Lawful] spell,

Yes, so "considering PC's usual alignments", the solar would more than likely be happy to oblige in taking down that fighter (88% hands down, probably more as most players don't do lawful if they can avoid it).

Not to mention the fact that, unlike the fighter, the wizard actually has a pretty good chance taking down the solar if need be.

Or the wizard could, you know, gate in something that's not a solar, and still kicks the fighter's ass? Like, oh, just about anything CR 18 and up? :smalltongue:

[Crimson Avenger]

I have to apologise to the great gabu. I saw his post, thought it was funny, and did not acknowledge his superior sense of humor. I'm sorry, Bill Nye is the funniest scientist on the planet.

[Crimson Avenger]

Well, yes and no. Gating in any powerful creature is dangerous, they don't like being told what to do. Are you forgetting [Good] in that alignment stab. you do have to consider both.

[Kurald Galain]

Except...the only way to catch them in a charge is to ready an action,
Well, that and contingency, and celerity, and probably a few other things I can't remember off-hand, and it's quite easy for the wizard to be outside charge range.


Unfortunately, Quickened is no longer a FREE action. It is now a swift action, so you can't get that off in the same round you ready
No, you can't ready both a swift and a regular action simultaneously, but you can still do the swift action in the round where you ready the action. Plus there's a bunch of spells that are immediate actions.


That and the fact the Quicken adds six? levels to the spell
Four, actually, less with certain feats or prestige classes.

Oh, and the fighter can't use his movement to get out of the mud, because he can only move five feet per round through the mud, which covers eight squares per caster level.

So what was your point again?

[Crimson Avenger]

Yup, says right there speed of 5 ft.

I didn't think it was worth the point to say saving throw (for mud to rock)

It is worth saying you actually have to be standing of ROCK, not earth, grass, worked or magical stone, ect.

my point was it isn't an instant catch and kill, no matter how fancy you get with the actual casting. I'd have to have my books to look up the swift and standard part of a readied action, but I think you might be wrong about getting them both off.

[Crimson Avenger]

Well, that and contingency, and celerity, and probably a few other things I can't remember off-hand, and it's quite easy for the wizard to be outside charge range.


I would love to hear the wording to contingency that has you casting rock to mud when charged. That has got to be amusing.

[LordOfNarf]

The Key Flaw in all your arguments is that you are comparing Xykon and Redcloak to Nale's dad, who isn't even confirmed to be a fighter. Alone, it really boils down to numbers and levels, 2 on one would beat anything not more than 4 ECL above them.

In a battle on a Large Scale (That means armies) The size of the army and the effectiveness of command are prime factors. Xykon has demonstrated the tactical sublty of a marmot on pot, favoring the hit 'em hard and in one place method. All the tricks and good moves as well as the micromanaging fall to Redcloak. (Titanium Golem from Catupult, Xykon Clones, etc)

In response to the OP, a nigh unstoppable army is an army of sufficient size and force to be unable to be defeated by a single major world power without unduly significant loss of people/money/etc. In short, it isn't defeatable befcause it is too hard. Nigh does, however imply that it is defeatable under specific conditions with a powerful army, and alot of luck.

In this respect, any fighter commanding an army will have a better success. A high level fighter or such class with a leadership focused prestige class could have potentially hundreds of followers of varying levels, in addition to standard, highered soldiers and conscripts. In in-game thought, a fighter will alos have a better idea of how the typical front-line soldier will act in combat, and will have a better idea of how to deploy and command troops accordingly.

And Hinjo is the one who said that Sorcerers of Xykon's level don't engage opponents, they change the course of battles. Hinjo made a generalization that Xykon himself has disproved over and over again in the comic and the prequels. Xykon is indeed a blaster, happy to pound the powerful enemies out of existence with his powerful spells, over and over and over again, rather than interfere in the battle.
SoD Spoilers
In the battle for Lirian's gate, both times, Xykon went straight to Lirian and engaged her exclusively, ignoring the rest of the battle. A straregy that cost him the gate. He was in fact detrimental to the tactical command of the battle, killing the goblin front lines with a sloppily aimed cloudskill.
At Dorukan's castle, he one again went straight to Dorukan and engaged him to the perclusion of any battle going on .
Hinjo was wrong, Xykon prefers not to interfere in the battle at large, but rather just engage the most powerful opponents one on one.

[Crimson Avenger]

And we keep assuming that a 9th plus level fighter has no magical items at his disposal. A potion, boots, a ring, maybe fancy gloves.

Heck, charge distance is 180 ft by 5th level if you want it to be....

Barbarian 40 ft
Dash (Feat) 5 ft
Quickness (+1 on Armor) 5 ft
Speed of Thought (Feat) 10 ft
Haste 30ft

I'm pretty sure I didn't double up on bonuses.

[NikkTheTrick]

Which brings up a question: how big are armies in OotS universe?

Let us look at Team Evil army:
- About 20 000 hobgoblins. Hobgoblins have proven to be tough and disciplined soldiers, better than most AC soldiers, as indicated by about 1:1 loss ratio even thouogh hobgoblins were assaulting fortifications where command had no regard for their lives untill near the end of the battle. Only at breach did hobgoblins fight on even terms with AC (and won). In the southern section of the wall, they were scaling the walls at cost of horrendous losses. Also note that a large number of them were killed by OotS. Assuming that an average soldier is about equal to an AC soldier, those 20 000 hobgoblins are a fearsome force. Hovever, city garrisons are often worse trained than actual armies.

- An unknown number of undead. After the battle, there was no shortage of bodies, so we can put the high estimate to 20 000 zombies (assuming all dead AC soldiers and hobos were raised). Can be a lot more if there were a lot of civilians who were not evacuated and were then summarially executed to make more undead.

That brings the force to 20 000 professional soldiers and 20 000 undead, whose quality is hard to tell.

Whoever opposes Team Evil will need to have an army comparable to that. How big are nations in OotS universe? If they are about the size and power of medieval France, they can field a comparable army. If they are more like Italian city-states, they need to unite or die.

[Crimson Avenger]

I don't care how large your army is, 4 to 6 PC's WILL destroy the entire organization in a few days. That's what PC's do. It goes something like this:

Scry
Teleport
Slaughter the Leaders
Throw a coupla area spells
Laugh manaically
Teleport

I should know, it's what my PC's do now.

And that's probably twice per day. When OotS gets to the level they can defeat X, Redcloak will fall, and the entire army will leave the field.

[Kurald Galain]

I didn't think it was worth the point to say saving throw (for mud to rock)
That's because it doesn't allow any.


my point was it isn't an instant catch and kill
Instant catch is easy - Forcecage. Instant kill is also easy, just spam a few SOD spells. Or do the Shivering Touch trick. Mud to Rock was simply suggested as a fun and stylish way to catch someone.


I would love to hear the wording to contingency that has you casting rock to mud when charged.
Oh, that's easy. Trigger when an enemy approaches within X feet. Or use a command word, as speaking is a free action.


And we keep assuming that a 9th plus level fighter has no magical items at his disposal.
No, you keep assuming that it makes a difference. It does not.



Heck, charge distance is 180 ft by 5th level if you want it to be....
So? Charge can be over 30,000 ft if you try hard enough. The wiz still gets to dimdoor out of the way if he wants to. That doesn't change the fact that wizard is a top tier class, and fighter a bottom tier class.

[Green Bean]

Xykon has demonstrated the tactical sublty of a marmot on pot, favoring the hit 'em hard and in one place method.

And why would that be a bad thing? If Xykon simply flies over the majority of the army, lands, then proceeds to butcher the entire high command, would that not affect the course of a battle? In the words of a certain OotS character: "Only two things matter: force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide."

[Crimson Avenger]

Alright, I'm headin home but I'd like to leave Kurald with a parting thought:

Contingency has to be utilitarian, you can only have one at a time, and using Rock to mud is kinda silly, and Dim Door is dangerous (you have to set the conditions at casting: i.e. range, direction, ect)

You're obviously very fond of casters, I really like fighters

By the time you can cast Gate, I can make three melee attacks as a standard action without provoking AoO with the Spring Attack feat tree. Each has their merits, and weaknessses.

It all comes down to two things: initative, and style of play.

The party that gets surprise wins.

If you fight one major battle per day the casters rule, if you fight multiple encounters per day the fighters shine.

We can agree to disagree.

[Dolash]

Contingency's got an easy counter.

I bet nine out of ten wizards don't read the full description - you need to carry around this big ivory representative of yourself as a focus at the time of the contingency's activation for it to work. Get someone (a rogue? A companion creature of some kind?) to steal it or take it out with a bowshot.

BAM. Contingency down.

[Green Bean]

Contingency's got an easy counter.

I bet nine out of ten wizards don't read the full description - you need to carry around this big ivory representative of yourself as a focus at the time of the contingency's activation for it to work. Get someone (a rogue? A companion creature of some kind?) to steal it or take it out with a bowshot.

BAM. Contingency down.

You realize that the kind of effort it would take to steal or destroy a small focus (and it is small; the mage carves it him/herself, and isn't going to haul around an eighty pound monstrosity), would be much better served with a direct attack. If you're close enough to the wizard to get rid of it without being seen, you could just, you know, stab the guy.

[LordOfNarf]

And why would that be a bad thing? If Xykon simply flies over the majority of the army, lands, then proceeds to butcher the entire high command, would that not affect the course of a battle? In the words of a certain OotS character: "Only two things matter: force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide."

But the point is that he dosen't "slaughter the high command." He had greater invisibility, and he didn't lay four meteor swarms on Hinjo, he just flew around until his part in the engagment (the throne room) came up. He Not only shows not tactical command skill, but a distinct lack of knowlege of how command works, he targets people if he thinks he would like killing them. For example, he offered to let Roy go because he didn't think (and he was right) that Roy was a suitable challenge to him.

Style IS important because an army is made up of lots of weak, stupid soldiers. The goal is to outsmart the opposing commanders, because in about 90% of major engagments, its is simply not possible to win with reasonable levels of loss by simply applying force.

Notice how Azure city was taken by a series of cunning ploys and strategies by Redcloak, Xykon did not interfere at all, and if his method had been employed, the Hobgoblins would all be head, Auzure city would have taken heavy losses, but the PC's would have been able to focus on the Hobgoblins and etc if no Xykon or clones were present, and there would have been no breacches, multipronged attacks, or titanium elementals to tip the scales in their advantage in the begining. Azure city would still be in the Azurites hands instead of under Xykon's control. Xykon has no perspective of handling masses, since he has always been a PC class, and for a long time has been powerful enough to lay waste to opponents alone. The law of squares comes in here, that you can only surround each defender with 8 hobgoblins (6 in hex grid) which means that there is a limit to the amount of force that can be applied, and style must make up the deficit of the amount that is still needed to atain victory.

[NikkTheTrick]

I don't care how large your army is, 4 to 6 PC's WILL destroy the entire organization in a few days. That's what PC's do. It goes something like this:

Scry
Teleport
Slaughter the Leaders
Throw a coupla area spells
Laugh manaically
Teleport

I should know, it's what my PC's do now.

And that's probably twice per day. When OotS gets to the level they can defeat X, Redcloak will fall, and the entire army will leave the field.

For some reason, that did not work during the AC defense:smalltongue:

[Hood]

Wait, as to the rock / mud thing, if the fighter can move 5 ft, and the spell area is 8 squares, couldn't he retreat out of it?

[Voyager_I]

To anyone who honestly thinks Fighters stand any chance against Clerics or Wizards past the first few levels; go poke around the gaming forum for a while. You'll find your answers pretty quickly (just don't start a new thread about it, there's been a rash of them lately).

Gotta say, the army would be pretty irrelevant in any kind of battle. Xykon might bother to engage with his Hobgoblins, but it wouldn't be especially necessary (It should also be noted that, while Xykon basically just goofs around in battle, he leaves command of the army to Redcloak, who has shown an excellent tactical mind).

Here's all Xykon would actually have to bother to do before the battle;

1. Overland Flight (Immune to soldiers without ranged weapons, magical or otherwise)
2. Wind Wall (Immune to soldiers with ranged weapons, magical or otherwise)
3. Globe of Invulnerability/equivalent (Immune to minor spellcasters, because they're kinda annoying)

Now, here's what Xykon would have to do during the battle;

1. Fly over to Nale's father, blow him up in one manner or another.
2. Fireball mooks until he gets bored or runs out of spells.

[LordOfNarf]

Now, here's what Xykon would have to do during the battle;

1. Fly over to Nale's father, blow him up in one manner or another.
2. Fireball mooks until he gets bored or runs out of spells.

That tactic is almost completely unreasonable and unfeasable.
The Reasons:

1) Flying people are really conspicuous. REALLY conspicuous.

2) If the commander does not have at least a few high level spellcasters hanging back by home base, then I'm not sure how he is still alive.

3) The commander will be bufed until his clerics can shave in the reflection of magical energy. Its a basic rule, the more valuble the unit the more protection it gets. Thats why the President gets a fleet of secret service to follow him everywhere, and I don't even have a bodyguard.

4) The High level spellcasters will barage the flying Guy until he dies with spells. Statistics say that with enough spellcasters, spell resistance, protection etc will fail sometime, if only on a natural 20 or natural 1 (depending on the role)

5) Even if the leader is somehow managed to be killed, he has told his game plan to his right hand men, who are competent to carry it out to the end of the battle.

6) If the leader dies, there are still other commanders, officers, etc, etc,etc. There is a reason there is a chain of command, and it is for just such a case as the death of the leader.

7) if the Leader dies, he has become a Maytr. This means that the borderline wishy washy people in his army will become emboldened and fight for his memory hereon and foreverafter (Remember the Alamo!).

8) Death is a temporarily disabling conditon, any major leader has the resourses to get raised soon after he dies. Days or weeks, tops.

9) as above stated, there are more "mooks" Than can be effectively fireballed into oblivion that are capable of effectively finishing the assault.

[MCerberus]

While that sounds good... in theory you have to remember this is an evil chain of command. A vacuum at the top means in-fighting for the position, then in-fighting for the vacancies down the line, and then rebellion against that. This prevents 5-8 effectively. If you don't think this would happen just look at the mafia for examples. Plus this goes in with the DnD concept of evil consuming itself.

As for 1-4, how much do potions of invisibility cost to an epic level character. Certainly not enough to make him think twice about chain-chugging them until he's looking over the back of his target. If you don't know when the enemy is coming, how do you prepare for it? If someone with permanent see invisibility is constantly on duty, how are they going to separate the flying lich high up from a bird?

And 9 - you see hundreds of mooks before you get burned, and you are ordered to be in the next mook wave (assuming the defense can be rallied in time), you have no idea if/when he'll run out of fireballs, and the most powerful person you know of was killed. Eventually mooks aren't going to go in.

[Voyager_I]

...stuff (look up two posts if you're really curious)...

First of all, Xykon can be as exposed as he wants, because he's essentially immune to anything that isn't a near-epic spellcaster. The mooks are entirely irrelevant, as they literally cannot hurt Xykon; Overland Flight and Wind Wall make him completely immune to any non-magical character who can't fly (ie, the whole army). Xykon doesn't even need to use his own forces.

Furthermore, from past experience Xykon has had little trouble annihilating every mid-to-high level character in a major battle, buffed or otherwise. Bodyguards, Supporting Casters and Lieutenants would be little more than party favors (operating under the assumption that most armies don't have Epic-Level incorporeal paladins accompanied by the ghosts of the entire history of their orders).

As for death being temporary, we saw Shojo having command of precisely one cleric capable of casting Resurrection, and he was the High Priest of the Twelve Gods. Remember, 13th Level PC's are approaching legendary levels of individual power, and even mighty sovereigns won't necessarily have the equivalent of a full party of them. Heck, Shojo only had one wizard who could Teleport, too. Chances are, they'd manage to draw Xykon's attention enough to warrant individual smiting.

Assault? What assault? There's no batttle happening, Xykon's just flying around blowing things up with impunity until he gets bored or runs out of mojo for the day. If he had lots of fun, he can always come back and do the same thing tomorrow.

As an aside, watching your amazingly powerful leader be easily annihilated and his entire retinue incinerated as an afterthought most certainly does not automatically fill Fodder and Friends with vengeful fury.

[Animefunkmaster]

Xykon could theoretically kill anything with enough time and patience. He is a lich. He can be the definition of 'Wave After Wave of Men' tactics. Hide Redcloak and send in Xykon until he is out of spells/dies, rinse and repeat. OR Hide Redcloak Wave after Wave of Xykon overwhelms multiple high CR creatures and they become undead (even without spell stitching a zombie hydra is scary stuff). Send in the now undead minions followed by gobos animate the leftovers. Run out of room to control enemies... then just let them run free as your recuperate. Also... pearls of power.

All it takes is for Xykon to overcome his greatest adversary... his laziness.

[Crimson Avenger]

That's because it doesn't allow any.

(snip)

Oh, that's easy. Trigger when an enemy approaches within X feet. Or use a command word, as speaking is a free action.


No, you keep assuming that it makes a difference. It does not.


So? Charge can be over 30,000 ft if you try hard enough. The wiz still gets to dimdoor out of the way if he wants to. That doesn't change the fact that wizard is a top tier class, and fighter a bottom tier class.

Hunh?

Rock to Mud most certainly DOES have a saving throw.

Contingency isn't nearly as easy to use as you say, because it has to be specicfic enough to not go off when you don't want it to.

X happens when I'm charged. Ok, you Dim Door because your dog is happy to see you. (is a charge with a touch attack when it jumps up on you)

X happens when an enemy comes within Y feet. And the rogue you've never met, passing you in the street, backstabs you with impunity simply because you didn't KNOW he was an enemy.

If your GM is allowing you to use Cont. in this manner I've got a few Wishes I'd like fulfilled.

Instant kills aren't all they're cracked up to be because they require Fort saves, something a fighter doesn't fail that often. It's like hitting a cleric or wiz with hold person, it's more often than not a waste of your standard action.

And I wouldn't mind seeing the justification for a 30,000 ft charge. Not with any PC combo I know about.

[Crimson Avenger]

For some reason, that did not work during the AC defense:smalltongue:

Neither side tried that tactic during the Battle of AC. The OotS characters don't have access to Teleport themselves. On the other hand, we do know that V knows several variations of Scry.

And Xy just doesn't care enough to do it. He can't even be bothered to remember Roy's name. If he ever really got tee'd off, perhaps we'd see a change in tactics.

[GrayMatter]

Yup, after all MM was routinely thrown for a loop by evil cartoon animals

True, but everyone on this forum would still be cheering Mighty Mouse xD

[theinsulabot]

i'd say nigh-ish. around the nigh area. "nigh" unstoppable, as it were

[pendell]

All of this wizard v. fighter comments is missing one fact:

The battle is not between Red Helmet and Xykon. The battle is between RedHelmet and his *army* vs. Xykon and his *army*.

I think it very unlikely that a "nigh-unstoppable" army in a high fantasy setting consists solely of low-level mook warriors and fighter types. Azure City had a high level wizard capable of casting teleport (eaten before battle due to circumstances beyond control), a mercenary wizard in the person of Vaarsuvius, a high priest , mercenary Durkon and a bunch of low-level cleric types. Nor is Xykon the only caster on the hobbos side -- they have priests and possibly wizards as well.

All of this is to point out that RedHelmet's army is probably a combined arms army consisting of spellcasters, fighters, clerics and who knows what else. One doesn't conquer vast swaths of territory without running up against a high-level mage or two, possibly even an archmage. Those mages must have been neutralized, and may even have been enlisted in the victorious army.

There's also the question as to just how much advance warning R and X will have of each other and their respective capabilities, which would give them time to invest in antimagic items, allies, extraplanar assistance, etc.

The bottom line is that ... regardless of how casters do against fighters ... that by itself will not decide the battle. The battle will be a combined arms affair in which 'casters and fighters feature and both sides, and the victor will be the one who best applies his capabilities against his opponent's weaknesses.

So until we know just what what Nale's father brings to the battle, we just don't know how it would turn out.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Crimson Avenger]

All of this wizard v. fighter comments is missing one fact:

The battle is not between Red Helmet and Xykon. The battle is between RedHelmet and his *army* vs. Xykon and his *army*.

Yeah, umm..sorry about that Pendall. Kinda got side tracked there for a coupla hours last night. You make an excellent point, but I refer you to my earlier post where I point out that adventurers are suposed to take on said army by attacking the command structure.

Course you could make a compelling few side adventures out of the inverse as well. Adventurers being hired to counter the opposing army's adventurers, leveled strike force, special forces, ect.

When facing 10,000 minions, attack the head first.

[sihnfahl]

Well, it would be a bit of 'fun' on RH's side.

The problem with countering epic-level casters is their range - Long Range spells, at level 20, can hit from over 1k feet out. Combine spells like Overland Flight and Greater Invisibility...

If they don't just do things like center a tornado in the middle of the marching army and let nature take its course...

[Crimson Avenger]

Funny thing about long range spells is you can never see your target (from a purely mechanical point of view. The range of a long range spell is 440 ft at 1st level. That only puts a -44 on your spot check. Heck there are 20th level characters that can't surmount that, and that's if your target is out in the open, not actively hiding (modified by size).

Unless you're a dragon, at which point you scoff at the -10 pealty for spotttin anything with in 450 ft of you.

(Dragon spell casters are DANGEROUS, they can actualy use long range spells at long range, unlike you or me.)

[krossbow]

Hunh?

Rock to Mud most certainly DOES have a saving throw.


NO, it doesn't.

This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud. Magical stone is not affected by the spell. The depth of the mud created cannot exceed 10 feet. A creature unable to levitate, fly, or otherwise free itself from the mud sinks until hip- or chest-deep, reducing its speed to 5 feet and causing a -2 penalty on attack rolls and AC. Brush thrown atop the mud can support creatures able to climb on top of it. Creatures large enough to walk on the bottom can wade through the area at a speed of 5 feet.

If transmute rock to mud is cast upon the ceiling of a cavern or tunnel, the mud falls to the floor and spreads out in a pool at a depth of 5 feet. The falling mud and the ensuing cave-in deal 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage to anyone caught directly beneath the area, or half damage to those who succeed on Reflex saves.

Castles and large stone buildings are generally immune to the effect of the spell, since transmute rock to mud can’t affect worked stone and doesn’t reach deep enough to undermine such buildings’ foundations. However, small buildings or structures often rest upon foundations shallow enough to be damaged or even partially toppled by this spell.

The mud remains until a successful dispel magic or transmute mud to rock spell restores its substance—but not necessarily its form. Evaporation turns the mud to normal dirt over a period of days. The exact time depends on exposure to the sun, wind, and normal drainage.
Arcane Material Component

Clay and water.





This spell ONLY allows a saving throw if your trying to drop it onto someone, not if you cast it under them. I.E., they are caught in the mud, no questions asked.


In other words, your wrong.

However, if the fighter can fly, he would be able to avoid this, as specifically stated in the text.









On armies. Hmm, how strong do you think the hobgoblins rank? Thats a good question right now. I was thinking, and as I looked over the hobgoblins I had to wonder, do any of them have class levels?

[Chronos]

On armies. Hmm, how strong do you think the hobgoblins rank? Thats a good question right now. I was thinking, and as I looked over the hobgoblins I had to wonder, do any of them have class levels?There are a fair number of clerics of at least fifth level (capable of casting Animate Dead), at the very least. There's no way to be sure, but there are probably a smattering of fighters of comparable levels, and probably a few bards, rangers, etc. in specialist roles. Plus at least one ninja, who opened the main gate.

[Emperor Ing]

How unstoppable is "nigh unstoppable"?


Nigh unstoppable. Everyone knows that. :smallsmile:

[Kurald Galain]

Rock to Mud most certainly DOES have a saving throw.
Wrong. It only gives a saving throw if you transmute the ceiling to mud and it falls on people.



X happens when I'm charged. Ok, you Dim Door because your dog is happy to see you. (is a charge with a touch attack when it jumps up on you)
Oberoni fallacy again. If the DM makes a point of nerfing wizards, then yes, they become less powerful. That's houseruling and doesn't prove anything.


Instant kills aren't all they're cracked up to be because they require Fort saves,
Wrong again, if you do the math (20th level fighter = base fort save of +12, say +4 for Con and +5 for equipment = 19; 20th level wizard = base save difficulty of 19, +6 for Int and +5 for equipment = 30; chance of failure = 60%. Note how Int is the wizard's primary stat, and con is not the fighter's primary stat, and this is not counting feats and prestige classes that boost save DCs). Plus there's save-or-die spells involving willsaves.


And I wouldn't mind seeing the justification for a 30,000 ft charge. Not with any PC combo I know about.
Try the charop boards.


All of this wizard v. fighter comments is missing one fact:

The battle is not between Red Helmet and Xykon. The battle is between RedHelmet and his *army* vs. Xykon and his *army*.

I'd have to agree with the earlier posts that point out, quite correctly, that the army is almost entirely irrelevant. Even if they have a large number of low- to mid-level casters, Xykon really is immune to anything that's (about) six or more levels below him, which would be the entire army.

Ditto in the recent OOTS fight - other than Soon, nothing out there posed a serious threat for Xykon. He could even have defeated the Ghost Martyrs more easily if he had remembered to use force damage.

[pendell]

I'd have to agree with the earlier posts that point out, quite correctly, that the army is almost entirely irrelevant. Even if they have a large number of low- to mid-level casters, Xykon really is immune to anything that's (about) six or more levels below him, which would be the entire army.


Big assumption there ... that there is *nothing* in the opposing army that can be a threat (that RH hasn't, as Crimson Avenger suggested, hired adventures). And that's just one possibility.

I re-iterate: One doesn't become a "nigh-unstoppable" army in a high fantasy setting without having some method of countering high-level casters. Places like Cliffport, for example, sometimes have archmages in residence.

I suggest this is the same mistake Xykon made at Azure City: relying so heavily on the fact that he was an Epic-level sorceror lich that there was nothing to oppose him. So he recklessly flew out all by himself and , what do you know, AC DID have a contingency for high -level casters. IF Miko hadn't failed her wisdom check, that would have been a permanent end to Xykon.

So I'm reserving judgement until I see what RH brings to the battle, or could reasonably acquire (adventurers, extra planar allies, etc).

The reason Xykon and Redcloak even have an army in the first place is because even an epic-level sorcerer lich works better when he's backed by a couple thousand mooks. It's the same reason a chessboard has pawns as well as queens.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[sihnfahl]

Funny thing about long range spells is you can never see your target<snip>
And this affects using area of effect spells pointed straight down at an army camp... how?

Give you a visual, here. Fire up Google Earth and go to 40°38'46.32"N, 73°47'18.83"W and set the eye altitude to 1000 feet.

Do you NEED to see someone? Nope, just choose a spot in that 'camp' and let AOE handle the rest.

[David Argall]

We are arguing from near total ignorance of this powerful army. And what details we have come from an unreliable source.

No useful conclusions can be drawn.

[Crimson Avenger]

NO, it doesn't.






This spell ONLY allows a saving throw if your trying to drop it onto someone, not if you cast it under them. I.E., they are caught in the mud, no questions asked.


In other words, your wrong.


Oops, my bad, I was refering to Mud to Rock and typed it backwards. You are correct about Rock to Mud not having a save unless you drop it on their heads. That's why I refered to the CATCH part of the spell, R save to avoid being caught in the rock.

[Crimson Avenger]

And this affects using area of effect spells pointed straight down at an army camp... how?

Give you a visual, here. Fire up Google Earth and go to 40°38'46.32"N, 73°47'18.83"W and set the eye altitude to 1000 feet.

Do you NEED to see someone? Nope, just choose a spot in that 'camp' and let AOE handle the rest.

Absolutely none, hence my comment about being from a purely mechanical point of view. My point is more to the idea that seeing the army is easy, making your spell more than randomly useful, is harder. Why catch 50 mooks in your Fireball, when you could cacth the 5th level captain, 2 of this 3rd level Lt, and 47 mooks instead.

[Crimson Avenger]

Wrong again, if you do the math (20th level fighter = base fort save of +12, say +4 for Con and +5 for equipment = 19; 20th level wizard = base save difficulty of 19, +6 for Int and +5 for equipment = 30; chance of failure = 60%. Note how Int is the wizard's primary stat, and con is not the fighter's primary stat, and this is not counting feats and prestige classes that boost save DCs). Plus there's save-or-die spells involving willsaves.


Try the charop boards.

What the heck is a Charop?

12+4+5 = 21 so that's only a 40% chance to fail. Of course if we assume the wizard has taken a prestige class to boost DC's, a fighter's PrC only boosts his fort save again. I also think we should assume that the fighter has at least a 20 Con with his +6 item of CON. So 35% chance of failure.

And of course that 30 DC is only good on 9th level spells, as spell level drops so do DC's.

I can only think of a coupla spells like Phantasmal Killer that have Will, and die...but even those require a Fort save to actually die. I'll admit I don't have my books with me, and I'm not primarily a caster, and there is probably some uber psionic that does just that, but I stand by the fact that most instant kill spells allow a Fort save.

[Crimson Avenger]

If you want a good example of the make-up of a professional D&D army, check out the entry for Githyanki in the MM. Notice all of the 5th, 7th, 9th, and 12th level characters...Oh yeah, and the 16th level knight on his red dragon mount leading the entire crew. And this army is only in the hundreds, not the thousands or tens of thousands.

Hobos come from a very, VERY, militaristic society. Their army would be considered a professional army, from a game stand point, but not a comic one.

[Oslecamo]

Guys we're talking about Xykon here. He's a sorceror who doesn't even bother to get away from melees, and seems to don't have a single rank in knowledge arcana, thus not knowing the weak points of any of his enemies.

He was beaten to almost dead by the paladin-ghost, he was grappled to death by Roy, it almost looks like he likes taking physical punishment.

Redcloack also took a beating from the ghost paladin, wich means he really doesn't care that much about defensive tricks.

But then, the OOTS themselves are awfully optimized. Roy is a freaking 13th level fighter and hasn't got a single movement enanching item.

[Crimson Avenger]

By awfully, you mean badly, right

"When you say O'fen, do you mean, O'fen: frequently, or O'fen: one who has lost his parents?"

[sihnfahl]

Why catch 50 mooks in your Fireball, when you could cacth the 5th level captain, 2 of this 3rd level Lt, and 47 mooks instead.
Who said it was targeting mooks?

Each DLB covers 62+ sq ft - and there's 4 of them.
A single meteor swarm ball covers 125+ sq ft - and there's 4 of those.
Around 750 sq ft of area covered, assuming no overlap.

You're not aiming at people. The DLBs and meteor swarm balls destroy tents, wreck supply wagons, melt iron and bronze weapons and armor, eliminate supplies... the things an army requires in order to march and sustain a siege.

Anyone injured/killed is just a bonus... like the blacksmiths that repair weapons and armor, the cooks that prepare the meals, the wagon drivers, the animals that pull the wagons...

[Oslecamo]

By awfully, you mean badly, right



It depends on how you define badly, really.

The entire order of the stick with Durkon healing couldn't take a psychotic paladin/monk.

Redcloack, even with a major artifact, couldn't take said paladin/monk by himself.

How bad was that?

[pendell]

The entire order of the stick with Durkon healing couldn't take a psychotic paladin/monk.

Xykon, even with a major artifact, couldn't take said paladin/monk by himself.

How bad was that?


I truly don't understand what you're saying.

Xykon defeated Miko in 1 round by casting forcecage. She wasn't even a challenge.

While Miko did defeat the OOTS twice, I note that both times were done with the power of PLOT. The first time due to a timely storm (and Durkon's surrender), the second time happened off camera. When Miko lost her plot-shield, Roy (armed with his ancestral weapon) handily defeated her in 1-1 combat.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Oslecamo]

I truly don't understand what you're saying.

Xykon defeated Miko in 1 round by casting forcecage. She wasn't even a challenge.

While Miko did defeat the OOTS twice, I note that both times were done with the power of PLOT. The first time due to a timely storm (and Durkon's surrender), the second time happened off camera. When Miko lost her plot-shield, Roy (armed with his ancestral weapon) handily defeated her in 1-1 combat.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Sorry, I meant Redcloack instead of Xykon. in strip 369-370 Miko beats the crap out of the same goblin who caused so much havoc in the attack to Azure city.

And then, you are half right when you say Miko lost the power of plot. She lost her paladin powers, being unable to heal or buff herself. And Shinjo helped Roy on that last battle, hitting her some times and giving time for Roy to recover from stun.

As for the second encounter, the Giant actually made a round by round description of the combat, wich is somewhere in the forums. Go check the class geekery thread, it's a quite interesting read. Durkon only healed in the battle, while Windstriker sundered Haley's bow(wich has no back up weapon), V was unable to hit her and Nale, well, wasted time.

Here it is. Miko won fair and square against a bigger force of higher CR.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639

[Kurald Galain]

As for the second encounter, the Giant actually made a round by round description of the combat, wich is somewhere in the forums.

Yep. My favorite part is where :elan: makes an illusion of what he imagines Shojo looks like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0266.html) and has it order :miko: to stand down...

I must say, though, it was in large part due to ineffectiveness of the OOTS. Miko had surprise. Roy had no decent weapon, only a club. Haley had no back-up weapon. Durkon was unwilling to fight along. Elan is an idiot. Miko was clever enough to take out Belkar in the first round. And V could have tried for something more intelligent than ray attacks or blasty spells.

[Oslecamo]

Yep. My favorite part is where :elan: makes an illusion of what he imagines Shojo looks like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0266.html) and has it order :miko: to stand down...

I must say, though, it was in large part due to ineffectiveness of the OOTS. Miko had surprise. Roy had no decent weapon, only a club. Haley had no back-up weapon. Durkon was unwilling to fight along. Elan is an idiot. Miko was clever enough to take out Belkar in the first round. And V could have tried for something more intelligent than ray attacks or blasty spells.

That was my point. When the party's wizard doesn't know the weakness of the women who has traveled with them for weeks, the fighter still didn't find a new sword despite having a dragon hoard to spend and the rogue hasn't got a backup weapon, we start asking ourselves how much worst the optimization of the party could be.

Hmmm, I just had a picture of V casting evard's black tentacles of forced intrusion on Miko instead of disintregate...Could have changed all the history.

[Kurald Galain]

When the party's wizard doesn't know the weakness of the women who has traveled with them for weeks,
Low wisdom, zero ranks in sense motive :smallbiggrin:


the fighter still didn't find a new sword despite having a dragon hoard to spend
Say, don't most dragon hoards usually include treasure other than gold? Say, 2d6 magical items from table 15, stuff like that?


the rogue hasn't got a backup weapon,
Yep. I mean, what kind of rogue - no - what kind of any character doesn't carry a dagger around?



Hmmm, I just had a picture of V casting evard's black tentacles of forced intrusion on Miko instead of disintregate...
Now imagine if it's an area spell... :smallyuk:

[spectralphoenix]

I felt the fight description implied a very tricky DM as well - Miko getting a surprise round and all. And she was more than a little lucky.

Anyway, Xykon doesn't need to worry about the army - he has DR 15/magic and bludgeoning. None of the mooks will have magic weapons, and bludgeoning weapons are pretty unusual among high level types. Only the warlord himself and maybe a few members of his staff even have the potential to physically hurt Xykon in the first place. Also, Xykon any caster even one level lower than he is. Sure, seeing things 1,200 feet away is a pain, but an Arcane Eye can serve as your very own artillery spotter. And if he has to close in, Power Word Kill can make short work of almost any living caster.

This is an evil army, after all. Any spellcaster powerful enough to really endanger Xykon should have taken over long ago.


One last note - Rock to Mud cannot be contingencied - the spell used with Contingency "must be one that affects your person." Not that I disagree that casters beat fighters, but more people need to read the spell description.

[Crimson Avenger]

One last note - Rock to Mud cannot be contingencied - the spell used with Contingency "must be one that affects your person." Not that I disagree that casters beat fighters, but more people need to read the spell description.

Ouch. That was aimed squarely in my direction. Shoulda caught that one right away.