Best support/control Fighter

[Eradis]

Simply put, I am looking for a pure Fighter build that would bring good support or control to the table while dishing the good ol' fighter damage.

I know Battlemaster is certainly a contender. I have heard of the Echo Knight and Cavalier too.

What are your inputs on this?

[stoutstien]

Rune Knight probably wins this match up. Echo, psi, and battle master aren't bad choices but for if you want to focus on control and support you need a more diverse tool kit then they offer. Cav are decent at mitigation but lack real control for most of its career.

Best part here with the RK is there's a lot of flexibility in how exactly you want to go about it. It offers enhanced grappling and physical space manipulation (gets bigger), two different forms of hard lockdown that target potential weak points and are action friendly, decent mitigation for self and party up to a flat out damage redirect, a handful of additional skills and expertise in tools, repeatable targetable disadvantage, and takes full advantage of the action economy without relying on feats.

Because is base is so diverse and flexible it frees up your race and feats selection. Heck you do most this hanging out in the fringes of combat with a bow.

Few drawbacks are being a little more MaD with Con being used to calculate your rune saves and having a busy action economy so the big damage feats net you less return.

[Eradis]

Rune Knight probably wins this match up. Echo, psi, and battle master aren't bad choices but for if you want to focus on control and support you need a more diverse tool kit then they offer. Cav are decent at mitigation but lack real control for most of its career.

Best part here with the RK is there's a lot of flexibility in how exactly you want to go about it. It offers enhanced grappling and physical space manipulation (gets bigger), two different forms of hard lockdown that target potential weak points and are action friendly, decent mitigation for self and party up to a flat out damage redirect, a handful of additional skills and expertise in tools, repeatable targetable disadvantage, and takes full advantage of the action economy without relying on feats.

Because is base is so diverse and flexible it frees up your race and feats selection. Heck you do most this hanging out in the fringes of combat with a bow.

Few drawbacks are being a little more MaD with Con being used to calculate your rune saves and having a busy action economy so the big damage feats net you less return.

Never heard of the Runge Knight in 5e. In which book is this subclass?

[stoutstien]

Never heard of the Runge Knight in 5e. In which book is this subclass?

Tasha's cauldron of everything.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I’m generally in agreement with Stoutstein’s assessment, yet Eldritch Knight also has some great control options, especially with recent books releases.

Rimes Binding Ice is a competitive 2nd level control option, and an Evocation spell, as well.

Tasha’s adds control options for any weapon user in the form of the Telekinetic, Crusher, and Slasher feats.

Also, remember anyone can Shove Prone/Push as an attack replacement.

[LudicSavant]

Simply put, I am looking for a pure Fighter build that would bring good support or control to the table while dishing the good ol' fighter damage.

I know Battlemaster is certainly a contender. I have heard of the Echo Knight and Cavalier too.

What are your inputs on this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZjgxzRLUqs

[RogueJK]

Metallic Dragonborn (Fizban's)
Rune Knight (Tasha's)

You've got single-target damage from the usual Fighter means (GWM, et al), plus a further boost from Giant's Might's bonus damage. You've got AoE damage from your elemental cone breath weapon. You can lock down enemies using Giant's Might-boosted grappling, Fire Rune, and the Sentinel feat. You've got debuff/control with Fire Rune, Stone Rune, Storm Rune, shoving prone, and your Enervating breath weapon. You've got forced movement with grappling/dragging and your Repelling breath weapon. You can buff your own and your partys' attacks with shoving prone, Fire Rune, or Storm Rune. You've got personal and party damage mitigation/redirection from Runic Shield, Cloud Rune, and Hill Rune. And you've got a bunch of buffs to your out of combat capabilities from the various passive rune skill boosts.

Plus, all your Breath Weapon and Rune saving throws are CON-based, so it isn't MAD since you only really have to focus on STR and CON.


Something like this:
Bronze Metallic Dragonborn Rune Knight
STR 15+1
DEX 13+1
CON 14+1
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8
ASIs: Crusher (+1 CON) at Level 4, +2 STR at Level 6, Sentinel at Level 8, +2 CON at Level 12
Unarmed Fighting Style
Athletics proficiency
Fire and Stone Runes, then Storm Rune, then Hill Rune, then eventually Cloud Rune

[Eradis]

So in your opinion : Rune Knight > Battlemaster > Echo Knight > Eldritch Knight > Other subclasses ?

From my understanding (I haven't have the chance to read the Rune Knight yet, altough I will, I have the book sitting nearby), Rune Knight is good for control and support mainly for having the ability to lock down enemies?

[Eradis]

Metallic Dragonborn (Fizban's)
Rune Knight (Tasha's)

You've got single-target damage from the usual Fighter means (GWM, et al), plus a further boost from Giant's Might's bonus damage. You've got AoE damage from your elemental cone breath weapon. You can lock down enemies using Giant's Might-boosted grappling, Fire Rune, and/or the Sentinel feat. You've got debuff/control with Fire Rune, Stone Rune, shoving prone, and your Enervating breath weapon. You've got forced movement with grappling/dragging and your Repelling breath weapon. You've got personal and party damage mitigation/redirection from Runic Shield, Cloud Rune, and Hill Rune. And you've got a bunch of buffs to your out of combat capabilities from the various passive rune skill boosts.

Plus, all your Breath Weapon and Rune saving throws are CON-based, so it isn't MAD since you only really have to focus on STR and CON.

Forgot what "MAD" means, but this sounds like fun. Plus a great reason to play a Dragonborn.

[RogueJK]

Rune Knight is good for control and support mainly for having the ability to lock down enemies?

No, not just lockdown. Rune Knights can also...

Restrain them with the Fire Rune, which also debuffs their attacks and buffs your allies' attacks.

Steal their actions/turns by Incapacitating them with the Stone Rune.

Debuff their attacks with the Storm Rune, or buff an allies' attacks.

Shove them Prone and hold them there, using your high STR and Athletics proficiency plus the Advantage from Giant's Might and a further bonus from the Frost Rune, which debuffs their attacks and buff your allies' melee attacks .

Etc.



Forgot what "MAD" means

Multi-Ability Dependent. Certain subclasses, and especially certain multiclasses, require 3/4/5 good ability scores. A Rune Knight only needs 2: STR and CON.

[Unoriginal]

So in your opinion : Rune Knight > Battlemaster > Echo Knight > Eldritch Knight > Other subclasses?


In that diagram and relative to the question in the OP, I would say Battle Master = Psi Warrior.

Both can do decent support and control, but they do it differently.

[stoutstien]

In that diagram and relative to the question in the OP, I would say Battle Master = Psi Warrior.

Both can do decent support and control, but they do it differently.

Aye it's close between those two and you have to look at it lv to lv to really make the call. Though for single class concepts I think psi edges out BM slightly. Those higher lv features aren't just your secondary/trinary selections.

[Eradis]

Ballpark an idea here that's been itching at the back of my head: A Kobold Fighter. I'm imagining an obvious dex-based character using the gauntlet that buffs the Strength to 19 (even though once the gloves are off, the dex will shines brighter the more the campaign would advance).

Would a Rune Knight still be relevant or would I be better off with something else?

Nota: I always have many concepts I want to try all at once, so my mind is like a pinball machine when it comes to choosing the one I will play for a while (I don't like retiring my characters mid-campaign because I want to play something else). Right now I'm eying that Dragonborn Rune Knight and brewing a few RP concepts, but the Kobold was the first race that came to mind so I have to at least put some thought into it. This community's opinion is always great for bouncing ideas. =)

[RogueJK]

Provided you don't plan to focus on grappling, or if you know you'll have access to a STR-boosting item to allow you to grapple effectively, it's perfectly viable to make a DEX-based Rune Knight. You'd just max DEX and CON, instead of STR and CON.

You can do a melee DEX Rune Knight using something like the Dueling fighting style along with a Rapier, or even a Whip, whose reach combines with the Large size from Giants Might to mean you can threaten a large area of the battlefield: 6x6 squares, or 30' x 30'.

You can even do a ranged DEX Rune Knight, since nothing about their abilities require you to be making melee attacks. (Although this does mean that you won't be getting any use out of Giants Might's Advantage on STR checks.) And you'll want to stick closer to enemies than other ranged characters, since some of your abilities rely on you being within 30 feet. Instead of feats like Sentinel, you'd take Sharpshooter and either Gunner or Crossbow Expert, since there's a chance you may end up with an enemy in your face more often if sticking to within 30' of the front lines.

[stoutstien]

Ballpark an idea here that's been itching at the back of my head: A Kobold Fighter. I'm imagining an obvious dex-based character using the gauntlet that buffs the Strength to 19 (even though once the gloves are off, the dex will shines brighter the more the campaign would advance).

Would a Rune Knight still be relevant or would I be better off with something else?

Nota: I always have many concepts I want to try all at once, so my mind is like a pinball machine when it comes to choosing the one I will play for a while (I don't like retiring my characters mid-campaign because I want to play something else). Right now I'm eying that Dragonborn Rune Knight and brewing a few RP concepts, but the Kobold was the first race that came to mind so I have to at least put some thought into it. This community's opinion is always great for bouncing ideas. =)

Should be fine. RK erasers most size issues and can work with ranged/dex just as well as str. Just need to be reasonable close to use most of your runes (30ft). Even with an 8 in str you can have size+advantage+ expertise (half feat-skill expert- same book) you can comfortably grapple most foes.

[Scarytincan]

I would vote battlemaster, lots of good maneuvers to pick from and can target a variety of saves, pick up sentinel, shield master, slasher on a whip, crusher and slasher on a glaive/halberd with polearm master if you want (or maybe a custom made one hand weapon DM permitting to allow to use with shield, like an axe with a hammer for the reverse head like most real wood cutting axes have to be able to use both feats)...lots of fun to be had.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Metallic Dragonborn (Fizban's)
Rune Knight (Tasha's)

Something like this:
Bronze Metallic Dragonborn Rune Knight
STR 15+1
DEX 13+1
CON 14+1
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8
ASIs: Crusher (+1 CON) at Level 4, +2 STR at Level 6, Sentinel at Level 8, +2 CON at Level 12
Unarmed Fighting Style
Athletics proficiency
Fire and Stone Runes, then Storm Rune, then Hill Rune, then eventually Cloud Rune

I'm doing this with a gem dragonborn. I took blindsight FS (more draconic), the Skill Expert feat, and the Dragon Fear feat for another battlefield control option (admittedly, a bit more MAD still). I like the gem because a large sized grappler with concentration-free flight is a wonder to behold.

Also, I've noticed that the Storm Rune can be used to make the Stone Rune nearly inescapable once you land it.

[RogueJK]

I'm doing this with a gem dragonborn. I took blindsight FS (more draconic), the Skill Expert feat, and the Dragon Fear feat for another battlefield control option (admittedly, a bit more MAD still). I like the gem because a large sized grappler with concentration-free flight is a wonder to behold.


A very solid alternative. Compared to the Metallic Dragonborn, the Gem Dragonborn gives up a little bit of control/forced movement from the additional breath weapons in exchange for greater mobility for a minute per day. And something like a Force damage breath weapon is potentially handier than an elemental one, since there will be fewer resistant/immune enemies.

Have you found that the low flying movement rate of only 15' per round while dragging a foe makes it hard to capitalize on the potential for added falling damage for your flying grappler?

[Guy Lombard-O]

Have you found that the low flying movement rate of only 15' per round while dragging a foe makes it hard to capitalize on the potential for added falling damage for your flying grappler?

Admittedly, yes. Although I'm often the beneficiary of a Longstrider buff by my party's caster (so it's 20'), I've been mostly limited to using environmental hazards to make the most of my flying (Small creatures beware!). Luckily, we've been mostly in mountainous terrain so cliffs and flying have been unusually impactful, and the party has also provided some hazardous spells (Evard's Black Tentacles being a favorite, as it apparently only effects ground-based creatures).

I've also noticed that the Hill rune's language makes for a good mitigation against fall damage when your minute of flight ends in an unfortunate turn.

[Keravath]

No, not just lockdown. Rune Knights can also...

Restrain them with the Fire Rune, which also debuffs their attacks and buffs your allies' attacks.

Steal their actions/turns by Incapacitating them with the Stone Rune.

Debuff their attacks with the Storm Rune, or buff an allies' attacks.

Shove them Prone and hold them there, using your high STR and Athletics proficiency plus the Advantage from Giant's Might and a further bonus from the Frost Rune, which debuffs their attacks and buff your allies' melee attacks .

Etc.



All of the runes uses you mention are 1/short rest. In addition, a rune knight only has 2 runes at 3rd, 3 at 7th and 4 at 10th and 5 at 15th. On top of that, the runes each have a saving throw or they do nothing and the target gets another save every round.

So I am just curious, how does the rune knight work out in actual play since it seems to me that they could run out of runes quite quickly and with the saving throws, there is a good chance the runes might do nothing. A lot of the comments on these forums look at what a character can do without considering that each is an expendable resource and that the rune knight might well run out of abilities.

[LudicSavant]

All of the runes uses you mention are 1/short rest. In addition, a rune knight only has 2 runes at 3rd, 3 at 7th and 4 at 10th and 5 at 15th. On top of that, the runes each have a saving throw or they do nothing and the target gets another save every round.

So I am just curious, how does the rune knight work out in actual play since it seems to me that they could run out of runes quite quickly and with the saving throws, there is a good chance the runes might do nothing. A lot of the comments on these forums look at what a character can do without considering that each is an expendable resource and that the rune knight might well run out of abilities.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/962908992143761468/unknown.png

I'll just leave that there.

[Eradis]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/445485023299108875/962908992143761468/unknown.png

I'll just leave that there.

I must have misread the rune parts. I thought you had one use per long rest and one use of the giant thingy per proficiency bonus. I'll have to re-read that. Especially if there's so much resources to spam.

[LudicSavant]

I must have misread the rune parts. I thought you had one use per long rest and one use of the giant thingy per proficiency bonus. I'll have to re-read that. Especially if there's so much resources to spam.

Each rune may be invoked once per short rest, until 15, when it becomes twice.

In addition, they grant passive benefits, like Expertise in Thieves’ Tools and Advantage on checks to detect magical traps (as well as a ton of other stuff). And I didn’t even put that on the above chart!

In addition, you get the giant transformation prof/day (and it lasts basically all combat).

In addition, Runic Shield is prof/long rest, and is one of the better defensive Reactions out there (because it happens after a hit *or crit* is confirmed, and has a 60 foot range).

One could say that all that addition… adds up.

[Dualswinger]

All of the runes uses you mention are 1/short rest. In addition, a rune knight only has 2 runes at 3rd, 3 at 7th and 4 at 10th and 5 at 15th. On top of that, the runes each have a saving throw or they do nothing and the target gets another save every round.

So I am just curious, how does the rune knight work out in actual play since it seems to me that they could run out of runes quite quickly and with the saving throws, there is a good chance the runes might do nothing. A lot of the comments on these forums look at what a character can do without considering that each is an expendable resource and that the rune knight might well run out of abilities.

I'm playing a Fairy Rune knight and I'm having a blast. Currently I'm level 3 so I only have the 2 runes, Cloud and Stone. Stone is mostly for the darkvision, but the advantage on certain skills has been massively useful!

Cloud requires NO saving throw, so the ability to just transfer a bad crit from one target to another is SUPER useful, and it usually only comes up once per short rest. Yeah the Stone Rune to charm has never worked, but it also costs no action on my part so I don't consider it that much of a waste?

Mostly it's just fun to go from 3 ft to 12 ft tall in a bonus action. The ability to grapple and throw things around has turned out to be clutch in many situations, And with a 20ft "high reach" height, sometimes dropping the enemy to force them prone then re-grappling them to keep them on lock is super fun.

Think of it as like... the warlock-fighter to the eldritch knights Wizard-Fighter.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Stone is mostly for the darkvision, but the advantage on certain skills has been massively useful! Yeah the Stone Rune to charm has never worked, but it also costs no action on my part so I don't consider it that much of a waste?

I think people are sleeping on the Stone rune. Sure, it's a save-or-suck. But it's based upon your Constitution save DC. And you're a fighter. So it's not exactly like you're giving up much to pump that stat. As a fighter, you should probably have a starting stat of at least 16 Con - especially as a Rune Knight! Which puts you right there with primary casters in the "save DC" game.

And what does it do? It's basically a 1/SR Banishment spell, except it's Wis-based saves instead of Cha-based. Except the cast time is not 1 Action, it's 1 Reaction. And instead of the target being sent to another dimension, it's standing right there, dazed and ready for you to wail on it (with no additional saves for being damaged)!

Why is that not good???

And as I mentioned earlier, once you pick up Storm rune you can even give the target disadvantage on all additional saves to escape it.

EDIT: For posterity, here's the other strengths of Stone rune's disabling effect: Doesn't require concentration and cannot be Counterspelled or Dispelled.

[stoutstien]

I think people are sleeping on the Stone rune. Sure, it's a save-or-suck. But it's based upon your Constitution save DC. And you're a fighter. So it's not exactly like you're giving up much to pump that stat. As a fighter, you should probably have a starting stat of at least 16 Con - especially as a Rune Knight! Which puts you right there with primary casters in the "save DC" game.

And what does it do? It's basically a 1/SR Banishment spell, except it's Wis-based saves instead of Cha-based. Except the cast time is not 1 Action, it's 1 Reaction. And instead of the target being sent to another dimension, it's standing right there, dazed and ready for you to wail on it (with no additional saves for being damaged)!

Why is that not good???

And as I mentioned earlier, once you pick up Storm rune you can even give the target disadvantage on all additional saves to escape it.

It's slightly better than banished because it has no concentration and doesn't break on damage. Fire is also nasty due to how much restrained sucks and you can't even teleport away because it follows you. both those options have a save at the end of the targets turn so if they fail that initial save there's a good chance the rune has already done it's job.

Both are solid options in the early game where both low str or Wis tend be common. Later on they start to sag just due to charm immunity and high str scores but then you have cloud and storm which scale well.

[Guy Lombard-O]

It's slightly better than banished because it has no concentration and doesn't break on damage. Fire is also nasty due to how much restrained sucks and you can't even teleport away because it follows you. both those options have a save at the end of the targets turn so if they fail that initial save there's a good chance the rune has already done it's job.

Both are solid options in the early game where both low str or Wis tend be common. Later on they start to sag just due to charm immunity and high str scores but then you have cloud and storm which scale well.

Came back here to point that out, but yeah, that's another advantage of it. Seriously, if it were a spell I think it'd be about 6th level, thanks to the casting time and non-concentration.

Call it "Banish Mind".

[LudicSavant]

So I am just curious, how does the rune knight work out in actual play
I have experience playing with/DMing for Rune Knights. Currently DMing for one in a campaign that's at Tier 3. My impression is roughly as follows:

https://i.imgflip.com/6c62ct.jpg

Cavalier misses the kiting dragon with their Sentinel-like attack after getting knocked prone by its legendary Wing Attack. Rune Knight chokeslams dragon out of the sky.

Cavalier sees ally get hit, and goes "well damn, they weren't within 5 feet of me." Rune Knight sees an ally get crit, and makes it pulp the villain's best friend (no save).

Cavalier has 1 bonus proficiency or a language. Rune Knight has a bonus tool proficiency and language, perma-Advantage on up to 6 skills, Expertise on all tools (including thieves tools and the like), double-range Darkvision, and Surprise immunity.

Cavalier can give +1d8 AC and Resistance vs a single attack 3 times a day (w/ 16 Con). In a 2 short rest day, a Rune Knight can get Persistent Rage-style resistance 3-6 times a day, the ability to reroll enemy hits and crits 2-6 times per day, the ability to redirect successful enemy hits and crits 3-6 times a day, the ability to go into "inflict Advantage or Disadvantage on a d20 roll 1/turn" mode for 10 rounds 3-6 times a day, and incapacitate a foe as a Reaction 3-6 times a day (with that being the only option so far offering a save).

Cavalier can make a bonus action attack with Advantage and +1-10 damage 3-5 times a day (If they first mark that enemy, then that enemy damages an ally on the next turn, then they attack that enemy again on the next turn). Rune Knight gets +1d6-+1d10 extra damage per turn for 2-6 combats (with very little chance of that damage missing since it's "if at least one attack hits" not "if a specific attack hits"), plus a Divine Smite with an extra Restrain + Damage Over Time effect 3-6 times a day, plus the ability to redirect attacks and all of their damage (after seeing the roll, even if it's a crit) with no save 3-6 times a day as a Reaction.

Cavalier (at level 15) can knock someone prone on a linear charge if they fail a Str save. Level 15 Rune Knight suddenly has over 40 resources per day which are all good, and has been Zangiefing giant legendary creatures with no save for their entire career.

Cavalier is pretty much locked to a Str playstyle. I've been comparing to a Str-based Rune Knight, but Rune Knights are also good on Dex builds.

[Spiritchaser]

I can’t comment usefully on rune knight, but I’d say Echo knight with sentinel is more capable than battle master in terms of support and control.

Echo knight is just really good at leveraging that feat.

[loki_ragnarock]

I have experience playing with/DMing for Rune Knights. Currently DMing for one in a campaign that's at Tier 3. My impression is roughly as follows:

https://i.imgflip.com/6c62ct.jpg

Cavalier misses the kiting dragon with their Sentinel-like attack after getting knocked prone by its legendary Wing Attack. Rune Knight chokeslams dragon out of the sky.

Cavalier sees ally get hit, and goes "well damn, they weren't within 5 feet of me." Rune Knight sees an ally get crit, and makes it pulp the villain's best friend (no save).

Cavalier has 1 bonus proficiency or a language. Rune Knight has a bonus tool proficiency and language, perma-Advantage on up to 6 skills, Expertise on all tools (including thieves tools and the like), double-range Darkvision, and Surprise immunity.

Cavalier can give +1d8 AC and Resistance vs a single attack 3 times a day (w/ 16 Con). In a 2 short rest day, a Rune Knight can get Persistent Rage-style resistance 3-6 times a day, the ability to reroll enemy hits and crits 2-6 times per day, the ability to redirect successful enemy hits and crits 3-6 times a day, the ability to go into "inflict Advantage or Disadvantage on a d20 roll 1/turn" mode for 10 rounds 3-6 times a day, and incapacitate a foe as a Reaction 3-6 times a day (with that being the only option so far offering a save).

Cavalier can make a bonus action attack with Advantage and +1-10 damage 3-5 times a day (If they first mark that enemy, then that enemy damages an ally on the next turn, then they attack that enemy again on the next turn). Rune Knight gets +1d6-+1d10 extra damage per turn for 2-6 combats (with very little chance of that damage missing since it's "if at least one attack hits" not "if a specific attack hits"), plus a Divine Smite with an extra Restrain + Damage Over Time effect 3-6 times a day, plus the ability to redirect attacks and all of their damage (after seeing the roll, even if it's a crit) with no save 3-6 times a day as a Reaction.

Cavalier (at level 15) can knock someone prone on a linear charge if they fail a Str save. Level 15 Rune Knight suddenly has over 40 resources per day which are all good, and has been Zangiefing giant legendary creatures with no save for their entire career.

Cavalier is pretty much locked to a Str playstyle. I've been comparing to a Str-based Rune Knight, but Rune Knights are also good on Dex builds.
If you think about their Runes as short rest recharge spell slots, they get more of such slots than Warlocks do.

But man, that post does a good job of illustrating why I don't like Rune Knights.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, its pretty unquestionably RK.

Cavalier is interesting but anemic compared to the big-boy fighter subclasses. You can get more reactions but the reactions themselves don't do that much.

Eldritch Knight is just a big meatball of AC and damage. They are really strong, perhaps too strong, but they aren't particularly good at control. Granted, that's how the EK at my table plays his character, but i don't think the subclass is particularly suited to it.

Echo Knight has some ability to control, by virtue of simply occupying more space. You can do a lot of nonsense like grabbing warcaster/BB to tie down foes.

BMs are very flexible but are heinously frontloaded and scale poorly.

RK is a monster. It turns out being big and having loads of weird-spell like abilities that work right is good, actually. Being big makes you a good grappler, and the runes cover a lot of niche situations other fighters can't deal with well. The only reason people don't use them more IMO is that they're kind of niche from a flavor perspective.

[stoutstien]

Cavs do ok as a beefy striker with some mitigation options. They almost want the enemies to ignore them so they can get off those extra ba and AO attacks. They play a lot like I envision barbarians should. Chaotic mobile tactics with heavy blows that push weaker foes onto their back foot and force stronger ones to reconsider positioning.

It's a mismatch of mechanics andflavor.

[RogueJK]

The only reason people don't use them more IMO is that they're kind of niche from a flavor perspective.

Your Rune Knight doesn't necessarily have to be locked into emulating Giants and carving Giantish runes into metal with smith's tools. Have some fun... Let your imagination run wild:

Swap the Giant language for Sylvan, and Smith's Tools for Woodcarver's Tools, and you've got a Fey Knight who carves nature-themed runes into their leather and wood.

Swap the Giant language for Abyssal, and Smith's Tools for Alchemists Supplies, and you have a "Jekyl and Hyde" mad scientist who quaffs concoctions brewed from questionable ingredients and carves evil sigils into his skin in his quest for power.

Swap the Giant language for Celestial, and Smith's Tools for Painter's Supplies or an Herbalism Kit, and you have a Pictish Warrior who paints his body with holy symbols using woad, and prays to the gods for spell-like abilities to slay his foes.

[strangebloke]

Your Rune Knight doesn't necessarily have to be locked into emulating Giants and carving Giantish runes into metal with smith's tools. Have some fun... Let your imagination run wild:

Swap the Giant language for Sylvan, and Smith's Tools for Woodcarver's Tools, and you've got a Fey Knight who carves nature-themed runes into their leather and wood.

Swap the Giant language for Abyssal, and Smith's Tools for Alchemists Supplies, and you have a "Jekyl and Hyde" mad scientist who quaffs concoctions brewed from questionable ingredients and carves evil sigils into his skin in his quest for power.

Swap the Giant language for Celestial, and Smith's Tools for Painter's Supplies, and you have a Pictish Warrior who paints his body with holy symbols using woad, and prays to the gods for spell-like abilities to slay his foes.

On the one hand, yes, reflavoring is fair game. On the other hand, the "get large" thing is still very recognizably giant-themed.

[LudicSavant]

On the one hand, yes, reflavoring is fair game. On the other hand, the "get large" thing is still very recognizably giant-themed.

Getting large is also recognizably Fairy-themed. Or Duergar-themed. Or Simic-themed. Just to name a few.

...Doesn't hurt that all three of those races also synergize mechanically as well as thematically with RK.

[Guy Lombard-O]

On the one hand, yes, reflavoring is fair game. On the other hand, the "get large" thing is still very recognizably giant-themed.

My RK is a dragonborn, trying to be as dragon-ish as possible. Growing larger into a "dragon form" works very well thematically. Most of the other dragon runes and abilities were also pretty easy to reflavor.

[strangebloke]

Still more specific than a battlemaster or EK. But fair.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Yeah, its pretty unquestionably RK.

Cavalier is interesting but anemic compared to the big-boy fighter subclasses. You can get more reactions but the reactions themselves don't do that much.

Eldritch Knight is just a big meatball of AC and damage. They are really strong, perhaps too strong, but they aren't particularly good at control. Granted, that's how the EK at my table plays his character, but i don't think the subclass is particularly suited to it.

Echo Knight has some ability to control, by virtue of simply occupying more space. You can do a lot of nonsense like grabbing warcaster/BB to tie down foes.

BMs are very flexible but are heinously frontloaded and scale poorly.

RK is a monster. It turns out being big and having loads of weird-spell like abilities that work right is good, actually. Being big makes you a good grappler, and the runes cover a lot of niche situations other fighters can't deal with well. The only reason people don't use them more IMO is that they're kind of niche from a flavor perspective.

I think your point about 'spell like' abilities on RK is a good one. The fact that they aren't spells means you could dip or take feats (with your extra fighter ASIs) to get actual spells, some of which would help in the context of this thread. The result is there's little to no competition (as there would be on an EK) for concentration or multiple spells in a round. I keep wanting to make one of these; there seems to be enough meaningful choices in combat to keep me interested.

[Corran]

Eldritch Knight is just a big meatball of AC and damage. They are really strong, perhaps too strong, but they aren't particularly good at control. Granted, that's how the EK at my table plays his character, but i don't think the subclass is particularly suited to it.
They have a few options. Enlarge plays well with their many attacks which makes them good at grappling and shoving. Warcaster/BB makes up for a big fighter weakness in not having scary OA's. Plus they can use a few spells for additional control if they need to. But all of this is pretty well known anyway.

What may not be so well known, is how eldritch strike can help with control. It's a feature that is not very often discussed. Under a favourable interpretation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527015-Eldritch-Jerk-Eldritch-Strike-might-be-stronger-than-we-think&highlight=Eldritch+strike) (which does not strike me as RAI, but I would sya it's within RAW, perhaps barely), you can keep giving disadvantage on the enemies' saving throws by just hitting them. So long as they keep rolling saves and your attack connects, they could keep rolling with disadvantage. Ideally best used with an archer build, so you can spare more points for INT and so you can focus fire more readily where you have to. Probably better if you multiclass into wizard (or sorcerer, assuming you start at a high enough level to not mind the terrible INT and the late blooming value of CHA on this build; profit is you get to add careful, quicken and maybe heighten, the value of which becomes clear once you start thinking of which spells to use). Diviner to keep them into the loop of rolling saves. Tasha's hiddeous laughter, grease (if you have melee heavy hitters), blindness, hold person, slow, bestow curse, confusion and hold monster would bemy primary candidates, but with all the new spells I might as well be missing something important.

Again, not likely to have the average DM go with that interpretaion for eldritch strike I would imagine (I wouldn't), but tecnhically I think it's within RAW so there.

[strangebloke]

I think your point about 'spell like' abilities on RK is a good one. The fact that they aren't spells means you could dip or take feats (with your extra fighter ASIs) to get actual spells, some of which would help in the context of this thread. The result is there's little to no competition (as there would be on an EK) for concentration or multiple spells in a round. I keep wanting to make one of these; there seems to be enough meaningful choices in combat to keep me interested.

Yes, 5e is very odd in this respect. Spells are mostly balanced around things like limited spell lists, concentration, and around there being a lot of spells that are just ultimately incompatible. There's a real sense where if you're level 10+ and have no spells you're sort of 'wasting' concentration insofar as its something you could be taking advantage of.

rune knight combines well with cleric or druid, imo, though understandably not everyone will want to take this route.


They have a few options. Enlarge plays well with their many attacks which makes them good at grappling and shoving. Warcaster/BB makes up for a big fighter weakness in not having scary OA's. Plus they can use a few spells for additional control if they need to. But all of this is pretty well known anyway.

Sure, they have tools, though I'll point out that warcaster/bb isn't really unique to EK at all. You can do it with a high elf, variant half elf, custom lineage, vhuman, a dip into either wizard or sorcerer.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I think your point about 'spell like' abilities on RK is a good one. The fact that they aren't spells means you could dip or take feats (with your extra fighter ASIs) to get actual spells, some of which would help in the context of this thread. The result is there's little to no competition (as there would be on an EK) for concentration or multiple spells in a round.

Which makes me wonder: Can the effects of a Fire Rune or a Stone Rune be Dispelled? If so, does it just happen automatically? Or is some sort of DC needed?

And if Dispel works on those runes, then what about the Hill or Storm runes? And do they get automatically dispelled?

This is probably a topic better suited to a whole new thread. But Rune Knight has been so extensively discussed here I just thought I'd float it anyway.

[stoutstien]

Which makes me wonder: Can the effects of a Fire Rune or a Stone Rune be Dispelled? If so, does it just happen automatically? Or is some sort of DC needed?

And if Dispel works on those runes, then what about the Hill or Storm runes? And do they get automatically dispelled?

This is probably a topic better suited to a whole new thread. But Rune Knight has been so extensively discussed here I just thought I'd float it anyway.

RaW dispel magic has no effect on the runes.

[Guy Lombard-O]

RaW dispel magic has no effect on the runes.

Forgive my ignorance, but why? What's the rule you're relying upon?

[LudicSavant]

Forgive my ignorance, but why? What's the rule you're relying upon?

Dispel Magic only has an effect on spells.

[ender241]

Dispel Magic only has an effect on spells.

Relevant SA here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA179


Can you use dispel magic to dispel a magical effect like a vampire’s Charm ability or a druid’s Wild Shape?
Dispel magic has a particular purpose: to break other spells. It has no effect on a vampire’s Charm ability or any other magical effect that isn’t a spell. It also does nothing to the properties of a magic item. It can, however, end a spell cast from a magic item or from another source. Spells—they’re what dispel magic is about. ...

What's more is that other than the Stone Rune (which charms the target), none of the rune effects can be removed by Lesser Restoration, Greater Restoration, or Remove Curse either.

[stoutstien]

Forgive my ignorance, but why? What's the rule you're relying upon?

As mentioned it only works on spells explicitly which makes it a misnomer. I've seen a fair share of DMs to allow it to work on other sources of magical effects which is why I said RaW.

Those runes are nasty. They are good candidates to take advantage of reduction of save throws like mind silver, unsettling word, and so on. The RK can pay it forward which is one of the big reasons they are so effective. When you can perform your role and enhance someone else's simultaneously that's a win.

[Eradis]

I'm sold to Rune Knight with all the praise it's getting.

Could someone explain to me why or how grappling a target is better than killing mobs faster?


I have experience playing with/DMing for Rune Knights. Currently DMing for one in a campaign that's at Tier 3. My impression is roughly as follows:

https://i.imgflip.com/6c62ct.jpg

Cavalier misses the kiting dragon with their Sentinel-like attack after getting knocked prone by its legendary Wing Attack. Rune Knight chokeslams dragon out of the sky.

Cavalier sees ally get hit, and goes "well damn, they weren't within 5 feet of me." Rune Knight sees an ally get crit, and makes it pulp the villain's best friend (no save).

Cavalier has 1 bonus proficiency or a language. Rune Knight has a bonus tool proficiency and language, perma-Advantage on up to 6 skills, Expertise on all tools (including thieves tools and the like), double-range Darkvision, and Surprise immunity.

Cavalier can give +1d8 AC and Resistance vs a single attack 3 times a day (w/ 16 Con). In a 2 short rest day, a Rune Knight can get Persistent Rage-style resistance 3-6 times a day, the ability to reroll enemy hits and crits 2-6 times per day, the ability to redirect successful enemy hits and crits 3-6 times a day, the ability to go into "inflict Advantage or Disadvantage on a d20 roll 1/turn" mode for 10 rounds 3-6 times a day, and incapacitate a foe as a Reaction 3-6 times a day (with that being the only option so far offering a save).

Cavalier can make a bonus action attack with Advantage and +1-10 damage 3-5 times a day (If they first mark that enemy, then that enemy damages an ally on the next turn, then they attack that enemy again on the next turn). Rune Knight gets +1d6-+1d10 extra damage per turn for 2-6 combats (with very little chance of that damage missing since it's "if at least one attack hits" not "if a specific attack hits"), plus a Divine Smite with an extra Restrain + Damage Over Time effect 3-6 times a day, plus the ability to redirect attacks and all of their damage (after seeing the roll, even if it's a crit) with no save 3-6 times a day as a Reaction.

Cavalier (at level 15) can knock someone prone on a linear charge if they fail a Str save. Level 15 Rune Knight suddenly has over 40 resources per day which are all good, and has been Zangiefing giant legendary creatures with no save for their entire career.

Cavalier is pretty much locked to a Str playstyle. I've been comparing to a Str-based Rune Knight, but Rune Knights are also good on Dex builds.

This breakdown is selling Rune Knight pretty well. Thank you =)

[LudicSavant]

I'm sold to Rune Knight with all the praise it's getting.

Could someone explain to me why or how grappling a target is better than killing mobs faster?

This breakdown is selling Rune Knight pretty well. Thank you =)

Grappling is sometimes better than just attacking. Also sometimes, it can result in killing mobs faster, not slower, than just attacking normally.

Here are some examples of why grappling is a useful action:
- If you prone + grapple a creature, it cannot stand up until it breaks the grapple. This means it's stuck with Disadvantage on a bunch of stuff, and you+allies getting Advantage. That's a big deal, both offensively and defensively.
- Hazard combos are one of the big ways to rack up massive amounts of damage (or other benefits, like status effects). Grappling facilitates these combos.
- Positioning is king. Grappling lets you control enemy positioning, impeding their ability to kite, choose the targets they want, receive aid from allies, mitigate you and your allies, benefit from the terrain, or catch more people in its breath weapon or the like. Among other things. I'd be here all day if I tried to list all of the possible benefits of good positioning.
- Many flying creatures will fall if shoved or grappled. Falling damages them, and generally makes it easier for your party to do things to them.

Also, Rune Knight has a lot more tricks than just grappling. Like I said, Dex Rune Knights are a thing too -- that wouldn't be the case if they were just a class about grappling. Think of it as an option in your utility belt for solving certain kinds of encounters, not something that has to be used in every situation.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Grappling is sometimes better than just attacking. Also sometimes, it can result in killing mobs faster, not slower, than just attacking normally.

Expanding a bit, grappling works best against hard-hitting melee creatures without good magic or ranged options. Something like an ogre or huge dinosaur(with RK's large size).


If you prone + grapple a creature, it cannot stand up until it breaks the grapple. This means it's stuck with Disadvantage on a bunch of stuff, and you+allies getting Advantage. That's a big deal, both offensively and defensively.

Offensively, you can guarantee rogues a sneak attack, give elven accuracy users their triple advantage, open up a greater possibility of paladin crit-smites, and mitigate the penalties from GWM. All of these increase the party damage, if not your own.

Defensively, you also keep that monster from attacking anyone who doesn't wish to come near it and risk its (disadvantaged) attacks. Which is doubly effective once Hill rune comes online and you can tank those disadvantaged hits better than anyone else in the party.


- Hazard combos are one of the big ways to rack up massive amounts of damage (or other benefits, like status effects). Grappling facilitates these combos.

Spike Growth means you can turn your (halved) movement into damage spikes when you drag the grappled opponent through the hazard. Or hold them in a Sickening Radiance or a Wall of Fire's damage area until they expire.


- Positioning is king. Grappling lets you control enemy positioning, impeding their ability to kite, choose the targets they want, receive aid from allies, mitigate you and your allies, benefit from the terrain, or catch more people in its breath weapon or the like. Among other things. I'd be here all day if I tried to list all of the possible benefits of good positioning.

Again, you can keep the party squishies safe from the monster. Possibly you tie up the most dangerous melee threat in the encounter, while the rest of the party wipes up the mobs? Then, if you haven't been able to kill it yourself, the party comes help kill it to finish the encounter.


Also, Rune Knight has a lot more tricks than just grappling. Think of it as an option in your utility belt for solving certain kinds of encounters, not something that has to be used in every situation.

It's just one (very solid) control option on a character, and RK is super well built for it...along with having a couple other very strong ones. (Speaking of which, if you whammy a target with the Stone rune, you can just use a single attack to shove them prone. Don't bother with an actual grapple unless they break your mental hold upon them, because that save happens at the end of their turn and you'll have a chance to grapple their prone asses before they can get to their feet again).

[stoutstien]

Speaking of spike growth, one concept I've been wanting to try is the agent of the smiling one. A mark of healing halfling dex RK with a chain genie lock dip. Probably a fighter 15/ lock 5 split in the end.

Loses a little bit of consistency with grappling but advantage + expertise is still plenty in most cases and being large means you can trigger crusher up to huge.