Need help with alternative party/campaign

[Melcar]

Hi y'all...

I'm want to start a campaign where my players are lords of a smaller settlement. The overall premise is that they are the ruling body. They therefore have to deal with the challenges which arise for a smaller settlement (haven't decided on the size yet, but thinking town). The idea is to do something different, where they maybe try some unconventional builds and where challenges don't have to come from orcs and be solved by combat. D&D 3.5 might not be good rules for such a game, but it hold so many opportunities that almost any problem can be solved. They will start at level 5, and receive exp/levels whenever they solve a problem or does something cool in-game.

I'm currently thinking that they needs to be a Master of War, Master of Coin, Master of Spies but I'm unsure about what other roles needs to be filled? I expect 3 or 4 players, and will add NPCs as needed.

I need suggestions for a few things:

1) What roles should be filled for a small oligarchy to be able to soundly rule a smaller settlement?

2) Should I let them choose their role, or draw randomly to see who becomes what?

3) What kind of challenges could a small town face, besides orcs or undead - I'm thinking more political intrigue kind of stuff?


I hope you guys might have some cool thoughts here. Any suggestions will be highly appreciated!

Thanks!

EDIT: I would like to be able to both give them individual tasks/quests and some they would need to do as a group.

[Saintheart]

I'd recommend the second book in the Pathfinder Kingmaker AP, Rivers Run Red. It assumes the adventurers have become the rulers of a small kingdom rather than a small settlement, but the ideas should translate okay or give you an idea of where to go with it. Even has a system for filling out certain roles in your settlement like treasurer, high justice, and all the rest of it.

The actual kingdom-running system is not simple, and it might be worth looking up the revised kingdom-building rules in Pathfinder Ultimate Campaign (I think?) because the rules as written in the module can be broken by the players with time and effort, but the actual module has some nice ideas for encounters/skill tests/challenges for kingdom rulers. And though it's Pathfinder, you can back-port to 3.5 pretty easily.

[Particle_Man]

Guilds might be a big deal. You also might want to look at the free city chapter of A Magical Medieval Society.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/55264

[Melcar]

I'd recommend the second book in the Pathfinder Kingmaker AP, Rivers Run Red. It assumes the adventurers have become the rulers of a small kingdom rather than a small settlement, but the ideas should translate okay or give you an idea of where to go with it. Even has a system for filling out certain roles in your settlement like treasurer, high justice, and all the rest of it.

The actual kingdom-running system is not simple, and it might be worth looking up the revised kingdom-building rules in Pathfinder Ultimate Campaign (I think?) because the rules as written in the module can be broken by the players with time and effort, but the actual module has some nice ideas for encounters/skill tests/challenges for kingdom rulers. And though it's Pathfinder, you can back-port to 3.5 pretty easily.

I’ll try and check that out. Seems cool! Thanks!



Guilds might be a big deal. You also might want to look at the free city chapter of A Magical Medieval Society.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/55264
That sounds cool! Guilds are a great angle of political push!

One thing I realized after posting is, I wanted them to start with leadership… so they had underlings to help solve some of the problems they will be facing. So they will be starting at level 6.

I’m thinking of having them decide on a common alignment before knowing what they will be playing. Not sure tho… in thinking it might be fun, but would I want that if I was a player… don’t know!

I also need to decide how far the campaign should run… basically it could end with world domination, but even if I could, I doubt I’m a good enough DM to pull that off… so I need to think of natural break points for the campaign. Warfare however is supposed to be a part of the campaign or at least an option. I’m counting on this not turning into tippyverse too fast!

In that regard a more low magic approach would be my go to. So I’m hoping they don’t all go full T1 casters and press enter to win… somehow I’m going to have to think on a way to discourage that.

I would love further comments and ideas. This is a completely different way to what I/we are used to. So I need all The help I can get! 😊

[Seward]

This is a little like an Ars Magica covenant, with PC's in the role wizards serve there, and their cohort+followers as the companion/grogs. It's also a little like a Pendragon holding with Knights, Squires, Companions, Men at Arms any of whom might be on an adventure but the Knights being much more powerful, especially if mounted. I've played quite a lot in both settings. The CRPG "King of Dragon Pass" was another example of this genre, you played the chief of a tribe, you had a tribal council and you did a mix of managing the tribe (including cattle raids and/or warfare with neighbors) and sending yourself or NPCs on diplomatic or trade missions.

All such games have a very important concept of seasonal and/or yearly progression, where the settlement itself is kind of a character and "advances" based on improvements PCs and their followers and citizens put into it. Anybody on an "adventure" isn't available to provide their skills in doing the settlement improvements, and because of that a typical "adventuring party" might be one or two "main characters" and the rest will be filled out by other PCs' playing cohorts/followers/etc as appropriate to the mission.

For example, the Master of Coin might be leading a trading expedition, but its guards and servants are mostly cohorts and followers but at the last second the Master of Spies joins in to accomplish some other goal, replacing a few of the other "commoners" with his roguelike followers, maybe a cohort being a good enough martial to fill in for one of the guard positions, leaving the Master of Swords behind to both administrate the settlement projects and also to be a hedge against something hostile attacking that settlement (which could be a random kind of thing like a large predator moving in, or some prior enemy you-all made attacking with some of the leadership gone, or the King's tax collectors showing up and gouging taking advantage of the absence of the Master of Coin and hoping to get one over on his less savvy warleader).

Settlements can also "lose levels" due to a famine, a natural disaster or a botched response to hostile action (getting raided and sacked while the Master of Swords and most of the guard are away - or even if they are there but get overcome). Some of this is reflected in people in the settlement dying, but some is just rebuilding things that were destroyed or, say, if you now are a settlement in Sauron's realm instead of Good King Yancy's realm your taxes and obligations might be harder which degrades everything else.

Most seasons there is zero or one adventure, and you focus on the progress of the realm, but as in the example above, sometimes they might cluster, or one PC decision to go on an expedition causes the settlement to become a target simply because a bunch of the more competent people in the settlement are elsewhere. If no PCs are sent on an adventure it just happens and they either succeed or fail based on how the GM judges it would have gone given what was committed. Mechanisms for recruiting replacements or promoting low level NPCs to "character sheet" roles are needed because folks WILL die/get captured/enslaved/retire from key positions. Typically such replacement recruiting takes away from advancing the settlement in some other way.

A typical sort of thing is that you get "advancement points" for the settlement based on the abilites/skills of people put in each of the "Master Of" roles, and if those dudes are off somewhere else, you have an "acting master" and use that person's skills (note, it might be better to use an "Acting" individual than the person who owns the role sometimes, then you get other PCs' scheming to get the person with the title out of town on adventures whenever possible). Highly competent folks might fill more than one role, but shouldn't be as good at either as if they were filling only one role. Recruiting replacements comes out of those "advancement points" closest to the role they fill. A major reward for success could be something that permanently makes a settlement generate more advancement points for the same skills (eg, doing a favor for Druids of the Nearby Woods sufficient to get them to bless your crops for 5 years).

In general though the "Adventure" action that is more like a D&D will mostly be away from the settlement, and most settlement "encounters" are managed by lower level cohorts/followers who take care of it before one or more of the "big guns" arrive. But every once in a while, a major threat will go after the entire community and since the settlement and PC capabilities are probably pretty well known once they start making that kind of enemy, such attacks can punch above their weight. Sometimes though the threat has nothing to do with the PCs but is more of a kingdom-level threat (think if your PC settlement is in the path of a Red Hand of Doom type invasion) and the goal might not be so much to destroy the threat as to make your settlement so hard a target the threat picks somewhere easier to invade, and you then help pick up the pieces/help your neighbors recover/move into the vaccum left behind after it's defeated by larger forces to expand your influence and reach.

Because of the seasonal or even yearly (Pendragon had a "campaign season" where battles and adventures happened and "winter" where aging, healing, crafting and settlement progress happened) progress these campaigns if extended can result in main characters aging, having kids, and eventually retiring/dying and having their children take over, with a mix of aging cohorts/followers from the prior regime and youthful friends and companions of the new "heroes". Most combats are still small unit affairs that 3.x rules should work for, with large scale conflicts being the sort of thing where you "Call up the levies" for whomever you owe fealty to, your settlement lacks a bunch of key folks for the duration, the settlement might have to endure raids, some sent away to fight may die in the war or come back rich with spoils etc. If a PC joins a battle as part of the levy you might have them involved in trying to capture enemy leaders, spying for the army or whatever their skillset allows, but still, a typical "adventure sized" group with one or more PCs and party filled out with cohort/followers.

For all of this - Players have to be ok with playing less powerful cohorts/followers if their PC isn't around for a specific encounter. It isn't for everyone but I've found this style of play pretty rewarding.

The Settlement-as-a-character-who-advances though is a very very key dynamic. Without that aspect, there isn't any reason to not have the PC's just be typical murder-hoboes with a settlement no more important to them than the typical tavern bar used as a home base by most parties.

Note that also this type of campaign is VERY "magic item crafter" friendly, with lots of downtime. Note however somebody spending her downtime crafting items isn't available to do her job as "Master of XXX", so you may want to assign her cohort that role if she's that kind of spellcaster, who goes on adventures primarily to get the xp/gold to craft stuff that interests her - although if she crafts stuff for the settlement, those items might give improvement points for the settlement. Ditto for a wizard who has Fabricate or Wall of Stone or similar resource-free mass-construction spells, or a druid PC who can just bless the crops with Plant Growth every year himself.



Master of War, Master of Coin, Master of Spies


In King of Dragon Pass, the council was organized along those lines. The Protagonist was the Chief, and there were more roles than council seats, which was a major cause of dissent sometimes. Plus some hated each other and couldn't be on the same council, some might get corrupted by chaos, or just get old and weird.

I don't remember it exactly but they were based on a kind of Scots Highlander structure, but it illustrated a lot of roles. A typical D&D agricultural community might have these roles - a lot of these are based on the DMG expectations for what resources a settlement of a given size should be able to provide a typical adventuring party.

Mayor - this is a pure executive role, who deals with other settlement leaders, the liege if any, administers justice etc. If part of a feudal environment, this is the one who has the title to the land. If it is a free-city kind of settlement it might be an elected or inherited position with limited term. In a tribal environment, this is the current chief. Typically this person also has access to the settlement wealth and decides how it is spent, what taxes are to be levied and how and what reserves are needed. (taxes should increase settlement wealth but depress how many settlement "experience points" are generated by whatever is taxed), although actually spending the money or changing tax structure might require a council vote or similar. One reason they control the wealth is this individual is also responsible for paying anything owed to their liege, or taxes/tribute the communities owe on a regular basis.

Warleader - in a Pendragon like setting both this and Mayor would be filled by the local Knight. In a typical D&D town this is more often the Captain of the Guard or similar.

Healer - in a setting with a dominant religion this might not be the best healer, but best priest of that religion. Barring that sort of thing it is the person with the best healing magic who is willing to provide it for a fee. Crafting feats for minor items (especially scrolls potions and/or wands) are common.

Arcanist - The best arcane casting resource for the community. Often constructs/sells minor magic items but might just be a guy willing to devote a few spell slots to helping the community by providing "I cast spells for a fee" resources. As with Healer, this might not be the most powerful arcane caster, it is somebody willing to provide arcane services for a fee and has useful spells known/feats to do so. A PC sorcerer, for example, probably wouldn't have this role if he had a combat spell mix. He might instead be the warleader, mayor or something else (after level 14, my sorceress had Control Weather. She'd have been a lock for the Steward role in most settlements which might have really surprised somebody thinking the city was undefended because the warleader was away....)

Merchant - responsible for ensuring the town has access to mundane resources typical for a settlement of their size. In a small settlement this person would know the local crafters, ensure they have the raw materials they need and arrange to trade for anything that can't be made locally. Depending on the importance of mundane goods to the economy they might or might not be responsible for things like moneychanging etc.

Steward - responsible for feeding the settlement. Ensures crops and livestock have what they need, in good times surplus is stored against future need or traded by Merchant for stuff the town needs. In bad times controls how the stored food is distributed. Obviously somebody with druid spells or similar has an advantage in this role, but there are a lot of ways to be "good" at this. (in King of Dragon Pass, being good at cattle raiding could make up for a lot of other problems in this type of role)

Spymaster - actually I stole this from Crusader Kings II computer game, but basically the role is information gathering AND counterintelligence - knowing when somebody is plotting against the settlement and blocking enemy spies from learning things you don't want them to know. This might be a traditional Thieves Guild leader type, or it might be a divination-oriented spellcaster or something else, but the Spymaster staff between them has both mundane and magical approaches to this problem, with gaps filled by followers and cohorts. As this position isn't commonly mentioned in most D&D resources the position might be unofficial but a town without one tends to suffer a lot more disasters, rather than having the problem resolved by some PCs+cohorts going on an adventure and dealing with the emerging issue away from their vulnerable settlement.

[Telonius]

I'd keep the general division down to maybe 4-6 departments (or as many as you have players).

Security: Soldier- and Guard-related stuff. Keeping the city walls manned, soldiers trained, laws kept. Class-equivalent: Fighter or Paladin
Foreign Policy: Keeping nobles and local notables happy, trade routes negotiated. Also the spy division. Class equivalent: Rogue
Morale: Public festivals, recruiting performers, managing issues between any antagonistic city factions. Class equivalent: Bard or Cleric
Treasury: Tax collection, payments. Possibly includes managing agriculture and production of goods. Class equivalent: Varies. Some Clerics (Olidammara or Yondalla), Rogue, or Fighter (if you're emphasizing collections). If Agriculture/land management is separate, Druid or Ranger.
Education: Managing a small library, any public education efforts, spell research. Class equivalent: Wizard
Public Works: Making sure roads are repaired, walls are maintained, stuff that the local government is supposed to do, is done. (Collaborates with War/Defense often). Class equivalent: Artificer.

[Melcar]

This is a little like an Ars Magica covenant, with PC's in the role wizards serve there, and their cohort+followers as the companion/grogs. It's also a little like a Pendragon holding with Knights, Squires, Companions, Men at Arms any of whom might be on an adventure but the Knights being much more powerful, especially if mounted. I've played quite a lot in both settings. The CRPG "King of Dragon Pass" was another example of this genre, you played the chief of a tribe, you had a tribal council and you did a mix of managing the tribe (including cattle raids and/or warfare with neighbors) and sending yourself or NPCs on diplomatic or trade missions.

All such games have a very important concept of seasonal and/or yearly progression, where the settlement itself is kind of a character and "advances" based on improvements PCs and their followers and citizens put into it. Anybody on an "adventure" isn't available to provide their skills in doing the settlement improvements, and because of that a typical "adventuring party" might be one or two "main characters" and the rest will be filled out by other PCs' playing cohorts/followers/etc as appropriate to the mission.

For example, the Master of Coin might be leading a trading expedition, but its guards and servants are mostly cohorts and followers but at the last second the Master of Spies joins in to accomplish some other goal, replacing a few of the other "commoners" with his roguelike followers, maybe a cohort being a good enough martial to fill in for one of the guard positions, leaving the Master of Swords behind to both administrate the settlement projects and also to be a hedge against something hostile attacking that settlement (which could be a random kind of thing like a large predator moving in, or some prior enemy you-all made attacking with some of the leadership gone, or the King's tax collectors showing up and gouging taking advantage of the absence of the Master of Coin and hoping to get one over on his less savvy warleader).

Settlements can also "lose levels" due to a famine, a natural disaster or a botched response to hostile action (getting raided and sacked while the Master of Swords and most of the guard are away - or even if they are there but get overcome). Some of this is reflected in people in the settlement dying, but some is just rebuilding things that were destroyed or, say, if you now are a settlement in Sauron's realm instead of Good King Yancy's realm your taxes and obligations might be harder which degrades everything else.

Most seasons there is zero or one adventure, and you focus on the progress of the realm, but as in the example above, sometimes they might cluster, or one PC decision to go on an expedition causes the settlement to become a target simply because a bunch of the more competent people in the settlement are elsewhere. If no PCs are sent on an adventure it just happens and they either succeed or fail based on how the GM judges it would have gone given what was committed. Mechanisms for recruiting replacements or promoting low level NPCs to "character sheet" roles are needed because folks WILL die/get captured/enslaved/retire from key positions. Typically such replacement recruiting takes away from advancing the settlement in some other way.

A typical sort of thing is that you get "advancement points" for the settlement based on the abilites/skills of people put in each of the "Master Of" roles, and if those dudes are off somewhere else, you have an "acting master" and use that person's skills (note, it might be better to use an "Acting" individual than the person who owns the role sometimes, then you get other PCs' scheming to get the person with the title out of town on adventures whenever possible). Highly competent folks might fill more than one role, but shouldn't be as good at either as if they were filling only one role. Recruiting replacements comes out of those "advancement points" closest to the role they fill. A major reward for success could be something that permanently makes a settlement generate more advancement points for the same skills (eg, doing a favor for Druids of the Nearby Woods sufficient to get them to bless your crops for 5 years).

In general though the "Adventure" action that is more like a D&D will mostly be away from the settlement, and most settlement "encounters" are managed by lower level cohorts/followers who take care of it before one or more of the "big guns" arrive. But every once in a while, a major threat will go after the entire community and since the settlement and PC capabilities are probably pretty well known once they start making that kind of enemy, such attacks can punch above their weight. Sometimes though the threat has nothing to do with the PCs but is more of a kingdom-level threat (think if your PC settlement is in the path of a Red Hand of Doom type invasion) and the goal might not be so much to destroy the threat as to make your settlement so hard a target the threat picks somewhere easier to invade, and you then help pick up the pieces/help your neighbors recover/move into the vaccum left behind after it's defeated by larger forces to expand your influence and reach.

Because of the seasonal or even yearly (Pendragon had a "campaign season" where battles and adventures happened and "winter" where aging, healing, crafting and settlement progress happened) progress these campaigns if extended can result in main characters aging, having kids, and eventually retiring/dying and having their children take over, with a mix of aging cohorts/followers from the prior regime and youthful friends and companions of the new "heroes". Most combats are still small unit affairs that 3.x rules should work for, with large scale conflicts being the sort of thing where you "Call up the levies" for whomever you owe fealty to, your settlement lacks a bunch of key folks for the duration, the settlement might have to endure raids, some sent away to fight may die in the war or come back rich with spoils etc. If a PC joins a battle as part of the levy you might have them involved in trying to capture enemy leaders, spying for the army or whatever their skillset allows, but still, a typical "adventure sized" group with one or more PCs and party filled out with cohort/followers.

For all of this - Players have to be ok with playing less powerful cohorts/followers if their PC isn't around for a specific encounter. It isn't for everyone but I've found this style of play pretty rewarding.

The Settlement-as-a-character-who-advances though is a very very key dynamic. Without that aspect, there isn't any reason to not have the PC's just be typical murder-hoboes with a settlement no more important to them than the typical tavern bar used as a home base by most parties.

Note that also this type of campaign is VERY "magic item crafter" friendly, with lots of downtime. Note however somebody spending her downtime crafting items isn't available to do her job as "Master of XXX", so you may want to assign her cohort that role if she's that kind of spellcaster, who goes on adventures primarily to get the xp/gold to craft stuff that interests her - although if she crafts stuff for the settlement, those items might give improvement points for the settlement. Ditto for a wizard who has Fabricate or Wall of Stone or similar resource-free mass-construction spells, or a druid PC who can just bless the crops with Plant Growth every year himself.



In King of Dragon Pass, the council was organized along those lines. The Protagonist was the Chief, and there were more roles than council seats, which was a major cause of dissent sometimes. Plus some hated each other and couldn't be on the same council, some might get corrupted by chaos, or just get old and weird.

I don't remember it exactly but they were based on a kind of Scots Highlander structure, but it illustrated a lot of roles. A typical D&D agricultural community might have these roles - a lot of these are based on the DMG expectations for what resources a settlement of a given size should be able to provide a typical adventuring party.

Mayor - this is a pure executive role, who deals with other settlement leaders, the liege if any, administers justice etc. If part of a feudal environment, this is the one who has the title to the land. If it is a free-city kind of settlement it might be an elected or inherited position with limited term. In a tribal environment, this is the current chief. Typically this person also has access to the settlement wealth and decides how it is spent, what taxes are to be levied and how and what reserves are needed. (taxes should increase settlement wealth but depress how many settlement "experience points" are generated by whatever is taxed), although actually spending the money or changing tax structure might require a council vote or similar. One reason they control the wealth is this individual is also responsible for paying anything owed to their liege, or taxes/tribute the communities owe on a regular basis.

Warleader - in a Pendragon like setting both this and Mayor would be filled by the local Knight. In a typical D&D town this is more often the Captain of the Guard or similar.

Healer - in a setting with a dominant religion this might not be the best healer, but best priest of that religion. Barring that sort of thing it is the person with the best healing magic who is willing to provide it for a fee. Crafting feats for minor items (especially scrolls potions and/or wands) are common.

Arcanist - The best arcane casting resource for the community. Often constructs/sells minor magic items but might just be a guy willing to devote a few spell slots to helping the community by providing "I cast spells for a fee" resources. As with Healer, this might not be the most powerful arcane caster, it is somebody willing to provide arcane services for a fee and has useful spells known/feats to do so. A PC sorcerer, for example, probably wouldn't have this role if he had a combat spell mix. He might instead be the warleader, mayor or something else (after level 14, my sorceress had Control Weather. She'd have been a lock for the Steward role in most settlements which might have really surprised somebody thinking the city was undefended because the warleader was away....)

Merchant - responsible for ensuring the town has access to mundane resources typical for a settlement of their size. In a small settlement this person would know the local crafters, ensure they have the raw materials they need and arrange to trade for anything that can't be made locally. Depending on the importance of mundane goods to the economy they might or might not be responsible for things like moneychanging etc.

Steward - responsible for feeding the settlement. Ensures crops and livestock have what they need, in good times surplus is stored against future need or traded by Merchant for stuff the town needs. In bad times controls how the stored food is distributed. Obviously somebody with druid spells or similar has an advantage in this role, but there are a lot of ways to be "good" at this. (in King of Dragon Pass, being good at cattle raiding could make up for a lot of other problems in this type of role)

Spymaster - actually I stole this from Crusader Kings II computer game, but basically the role is information gathering AND counterintelligence - knowing when somebody is plotting against the settlement and blocking enemy spies from learning things you don't want them to know. This might be a traditional Thieves Guild leader type, or it might be a divination-oriented spellcaster or something else, but the Spymaster staff between them has both mundane and magical approaches to this problem, with gaps filled by followers and cohorts. As this position isn't commonly mentioned in most D&D resources the position might be unofficial but a town without one tends to suffer a lot more disasters, rather than having the problem resolved by some PCs+cohorts going on an adventure and dealing with the emerging issue away from their vulnerable settlement.

Wow... thanks! That was a whole novel! Great stuff!

[Seward]

Wow... thanks! That was a whole novel! Great stuff!

Glad you found it useful.

I've had a lot of good times in campaigns similar to what you are contemplating. I hope your group has just as much fun.

[PraxisVetli]

The Birthright campaign setting adds a 7th Ability Score that serves as your 'ruling' score. I don't remember the details, but it was converted to 3.5 and is free content. I have the pdf lying around somewhere, if there's a way to share it here, I will.