No multiclass, class features available as feats

[EnnPeeCee]

Been thinking about an alternative to multiclassing, just curious where the opinions of others land.
Mainly, what do you think would be balanced? And have you tried anything similar in your games?

There already exists a precedent for feats to provide access to abilities normally restricted to a particular class;
Magic Initiate
Fighting Initiate
Eldritch Adept
etc

Assuming a game where multiclassing is not allowed, what class abilities do you think would be good to allow as a feat?
Any class abilities you would absolutely NOT allow to be granted by a feat?
For example, a feat that grants 1d6 sneak attack damage per Rogue's ability.

Are there any subclass abilities that should be included?
If so, would you allow it to be taken by a character who chose a different sublass under the same main class? A different Main class?
For example, Thief Rogue's Fast Hands ability; could an Assassin Rogue gain this by taking a feat? What about a fighter?

If such feats existed, how would you feel about the feats scaling with your level? Even if it scaled slower than the original ability?
For example, the rogue class normally grants 1d6 sneak attack damage for every 2 levels.
A feat that grants a non-rogue sneak attack; just 1d6 and never increase? 1d6 per 4 levels?

Would you allow a class to take a feat of an ability already granted by that class?
RAW already allowed for the existing similar feats like Fighting Initiate
Could a rogue take a feat to increase their Sneak Attack damage by 1d6?

Thoughts?

[Bobthewizard]

I wouldn't allow high level abilities as feats. You don't want someone getting an ability through a feat before the class gets it. So I'd leave it to abilities gained in the first 3 levels. And then don't give them too much of an ability for a feat. So for cunning action, for example, you could split it into 3 feats - one each for disengage (Slippery), dash (Swift), or hide (Sneak).

[Intregus182]

Honestly with the designers coming out amd saying tbey view feats as classless class features. I think if you removed multiclassing but allowed class feat chains to grab you core abilities of a different class thatd be dope.

Off the top of my head id say if you did this taking an entire classes feat chain should net you what the class is getting between levels 1and 10.

Either way i think its worth messing around with

[Neoh]

I like it, as long as you can only pick class features available for your level. Although there are probably some sneaky synergies that I don't see yet, that weren't possible/worth it because it took too long to get to them and that would now be easy to grab.
Maybe only allowing class and subclass features available at level 7 or less would do the trick.

[loki_ragnarock]

Been thinking about an alternative to multiclassing, just curious where the opinions of others land.
Mainly, what do you think would be balanced? And have you tried anything similar in your games?

There already exists a precedent for feats to provide access to abilities normally restricted to a particular class;
Magic Initiate
Fighting Initiate
Eldritch Adept
etc

Assuming a game where multiclassing is not allowed, what class abilities do you think would be good to allow as a feat?
Any class abilities you would absolutely NOT allow to be granted by a feat?
For example, a feat that grants 1d6 sneak attack damage per Rogue's ability.

Are there any subclass abilities that should be included?
If so, would you allow it to be taken by a character who chose a different sublass under the same main class? A different Main class?
For example, Thief Rogue's Fast Hands ability; could an Assassin Rogue gain this by taking a feat? What about a fighter?

If such feats existed, how would you feel about the feats scaling with your level? Even if it scaled slower than the original ability?
For example, the rogue class normally grants 1d6 sneak attack damage for every 2 levels.
A feat that grants a non-rogue sneak attack; just 1d6 and never increase? 1d6 per 4 levels?

Would you allow a class to take a feat of an ability already granted by that class?
RAW already allowed for the existing similar feats like Fighting Initiate
Could a rogue take a feat to increase their Sneak Attack damage by 1d6?

Thoughts?
It sounds a little less like the total free for all that point based character creation systems lead to... but, like, adjacent to that.

[heavyfuel]

The first thing to consider is that by making the features into feats, you run the risk of them becoming available earlier than normal. Illusory Reality is ridiculously powerful at 14th level, when Wizards get it, but it would be absolutely gamebreaking if a Warlock could get it at 4th.

Once that's out of the way, there's also the other side of the coin: Only extremely powerful class features are worth feats. Rage 2/day is not worth the price of a Feat, and neither is Second Wind or Sneak Attack +1d6.

Even powerful features are probably pretty weak feats. Action Surge is amazing, but it's probably on a low enough priority that most characters can't afford it before level 12.

[Rynjin]

Pathfinder's Variant Multiclassing is essentially this, and was popular enough that PF2e made the questionable choice to remove multiclassing entirely and replace it with a similar system, so this isn't new ground. Maybe look up testimonials from people who've played PF2e extensively, or PF with Variant Multiclassing, and see if you can apply their experiences to this homebrew for potential pitfalls.

[Bphill561]

I think this would work okay as long as your selection of class/subclass ability is not one above your current level. That way no one gets anything early, except the standard bard grabbing spells earlier with magical secrets.

I might also make the gentlemen's agreement that no can take a subclass ability for a subclass someone is actually playing. Not always necessary, but in a small group I might go that way.



Once that's out of the way, there's also the other side of the coin: Only extremely powerful class features are worth feats. Rage 2/day is not worth the price of a Feat, and neither is Second Wind or Sneak Attack +1d6.

Even powerful features are probably pretty weak feats. Action Surge is amazing, but it's probably on a low enough priority that most characters can't afford it before level 12.

You could always make it a half-feat and give an ability score if it appears weak. Or when selecting a level scalable class ability, it scales with your level or half your level. Obviously full sneak attack would not be nice, but if you selected it say at level 16 and got the ability of a 8th level rogue that might work. It would be subjective.

[TurboGhast]

I've thought about allowing people to multi-subclass by taking feats, which seems similar enough to this to be worth bringing up. When considering that idea, I decided on making the feats that got you the high level abilities would have the ones that gave you level abilities as prerequisites to make sure the result feels like learning another way to be your class instead of just cherry picking strong abilities. Putting the same sort of prerequisites in place here might be worth doing for similar reasons.

For abilities too weak to serve as a full feat, in addition to the other suggestions it could be bundled with enough other similarly weak abilities to make the full package worth a feat.

[Kane0]

Been thinking about an alternative to multiclassing, just curious where the opinions of others land.
Mainly, what do you think would be balanced? And have you tried anything similar in your games?

Thoughts?

So like, dip-in-a-can (or in this case, dip-in-a-feat)?

Artificer: One infusion as per a level 2 Artificer
Barbarian: Rage once per long rest as a level 1 barbarian, plus your choice of either unarmored AC or Danger Sense
Bard: Bardic Inspiration (+1d6) once per long rest as a level 1 bard, plus your choice of jack of all trades or song of rest (1d6)
Cleric: Channel once per long rest as a level 2 Cleric, including either Harness Divine Power or a domain channel option of your choice, plus 1 Cleric cantrip
Druid: Wildshape once per long rest as a level 2 Druid, plus learn Druidic or 1 Druid cantrip
Fighter: As per Weapon Master, except also gain Second Wind once per long rest using Prof bonus as 'Fighter level'
Monk: Ki equal to prof bonus per long rest (basic 3 abilities only), plus either unarmored AC or +10' movement
Paladin: Divine Sense once per long rest, plus Lay On Hands using Prof bonus as 'Paladin level'
Ranger: Primeval Awareness once per long rest, plus 1 Favored Enemy or Favored Terrain
Rogue: Either Expertise or Cunning Action once per short rest, plus learn Thieves Cant
Sorcerer: Metamagic Adept already exists
Warlock: Eldritch Adept already exists
Wizard: Arcane Recovery once per long rest using Prof bonus as 'Wizard level', plus 1 Wizard cantrip

See also this thread. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?641752)

[diplomancer]

To be honest, I don't think this is a good idea; unless you throw all balance to the winds and let martials pick high-leveled spells as a feat; remember, spells ARE "disguised" class features, and Martials get "on paper" better class features for precisely that reason. So if you let a Wizard get Action Surge, you'd better let a Fighter get Wish at level 19.

Action Surge, Aura of Protection, Reliable Talent (amongst others) are way too powerful to be acquired that cheaply. Divine Smite is better on a full caster than on a Paladin; and so on.

[EnnPeeCee]

Thanks all for the feedback!
To clarify, I intended to add a level prerequisite on each feat equal to or greater than the level a class normally gets the ability. So no grabbing a high level ability at a lower level using a feat.


Pathfinder's Variant Multiclassing is essentially this, and was popular enough that PF2e made the questionable choice to remove multiclassing entirely and replace it with a similar system, so this isn't new ground. Maybe look up testimonials from people who've played PF2e extensively, or PF with Variant Multiclassing, and see if you can apply their experiences to this homebrew for potential pitfalls.
That's interesting, I really don't know much about PF2e, maybe I should look more into it.


So like, dip-in-a-can (or in this case, dip-in-a-feat)?

Artificer: One infusion as per a level 2 Artificer
Barbarian: Rage once per long rest as a level 1 barbarian, plus your choice of either unarmored AC or Danger Sense
Bard: Bardic Inspiration (+1d6) once per long rest as a level 1 bard, plus your choice of jack of all trades or song of rest (1d6)
Cleric: Channel once per long rest as a level 2 Cleric, including either Harness Divine Power or a domain channel option of your choice, plus 1 Cleric cantrip
Druid: Wildshape once per long rest as a level 2 Druid, plus learn Druidic or 1 Druid cantrip
Fighter: As per Weapon Master, except also gain Second Wind once per long rest using Prof bonus as 'Fighter level'
Monk: Ki equal to prof bonus per long rest (basic 3 abilities only), plus either unarmored AC or +10' movement
Paladin: Divine Sense once per long rest, plus Lay On Hands using Prof bonus as 'Paladin level'
Ranger: Primeval Awareness once per long rest, plus 1 Favored Enemy or Favored Terrain
Rogue: Either Expertise or Cunning Action once per short rest, plus learn Thieves Cant
Sorcerer: Metamagic Adept already exists
Warlock: Eldritch Adept already exists
Wizard: Arcane Recovery once per long rest using Prof bonus as 'Wizard level', plus 1 Wizard cantrip

See also this thread. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?641752)
I have seen that thread, in fact that's what got me thinking about these in the first place. I'm not a fan of the all-in-one "minor class" feats proposed in that thread for a few reasons, but I liked the approach.


To be honest, I don't think this is a good idea; unless you throw all balance to the winds and let martials pick high-leveled spells as a feat; remember, spells ARE "disguised" class features, and Martials get "on paper" better class features for precisely that reason. So if you let a Wizard get Action Surge, you'd better let a Fighter get Wish at level 19.

Action Surge, Aura of Protection, Reliable Talent (amongst others) are way too powerful to be acquired that cheaply. Divine Smite is better on a full caster than on a Paladin; and so on.
There are a few abilities (like those you have listed) that may need to be omitted from this system, or have additional balances put in place to prevent abuse. For example. restrict the feat-granted Action Surge from being used with spells, restrict the level of spell able to be used with feat-granted Divine Smite, etc.

[JLandan]

Thanks all for the feedback!
To clarify, I intended to add a level prerequisite on each feat equal to or greater than the level a class normally gets the ability. So no grabbing a high level ability at a lower level using a feat.


That's interesting, I really don't know much about PF2e, maybe I should look more into it.


I have seen that thread, in fact that's what got me thinking about these in the first place. I'm not a fan of the all-in-one "minor class" feats proposed in that thread for a few reasons, but I liked the approach.



There are a few abilities (like those you have listed) that may need to be omitted from this system, or have additional balances put in place to prevent abuse. For example. restrict the feat-granted Action Surge from being used with spells, restrict the level of spell able to be used with feat-granted Divine Smite, etc.

I'm all for unique character creation, so I would allow it... But only on case by case basis with DM approval. Not open to anyone that has a feat available. Level prerequisites are a must. Some other things to consider:

Some class features can be changed at certain levels. How would this apply?
Some class features are altered by later class features. Would these later features apply?
Some class features alter previous class features. Would this also grant the earlier class feature?
Some class features affect proficiencies. Would the class feature also grant said proficiencies?
Some class features are class level dependent. Would these be by character level instead? Or from the level the feat was taken onward? Or retroactively back to first level?

Most of the answers are easy and obvious. Others may not be. For example; Class Feature: Martial Arts. There's a can of worms. Or... Class feature: Spellcasting. Another can of worms, purple ones.