Buffed Grappler: Overpowered or a Legitimate Contender?

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'm playing a grappler lately, and I was wishing that there was a legit feat I could take (besides and on top of Skill Expert/Athletics) to widen his abilities in that regards. How would this be (too much, too little, juuuuust right)?


You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
When you make an opportunity attack, that attack may be a grapple or shove attack.
When you are grappling a prone creature that is not a larger size than yourself, as a bonus action you may use your feet, knees and/or legs to keep that creature grappled, thus freeing up the hand with which you originally grappled that creature. You may grapple no more than one creature in this manner, and doing so reduces your own speed to zero for as long as you do.

[Zhorn]

There are a few things existing in-game already that thematically do those things already.

Unarmed Fighting Style (accessible cross class via Fighting Initiate feat) adds a free 1d4 damage at the start of each of your turns that you are grappling a target (in addition to the 1d6/1d8 fisticuffs)

The Grappler feat gives you advantage on attack rolls vs targets you are grappling, and gives you a mechanic to attempt to pin/restrain a grappled target

Tavern Brawler feat gives a way to initiate grapples as a bonus action

[Sorinth]

Being able to shove/grapple on an OA seems neat. Frankly making it half a feat and just that ability is probably enough power wise.

I don't really like the last point, seems like it would encourage "pinning" the opponent then using something like GWM which I dislike as an image.

[Skrum]

This would probably be too far afield of how the game works, but I'd love to see wrestling moves. Sorta like making "attacks" but using your athletics check vs their athletics or acrobatics. If it works, it does damage and/or has effects, depending on the move. I too have a grappling character and I'm always somehow surprised how little there is to do.

I made a custom villain recently that had a Lariat move that did a bunch of damage with a successful athletics check. Way too good to give a player, but it was cool to attack with something besides regular attack rolls. I liked the feel of bypassing armor; it made combat more dynamic/real.

[Guy Lombard-O]

There are a few things existing in-game already that thematically do those things already.

The Grappler feat gives you advantage on attack rolls vs targets you are grappling, and gives you a mechanic to attempt to pin/restrain a grappled target

Yes, this would be intended as a replacement or edit to the excremental Grappler feat.

[Zhorn]

Would have to disagree on that take. The Grappler feat might not be the optimizers pick, but it is still more valuable that that descriptor.
The third dotpoint sounds more like wanting to have your cake and eat it too with having a target suffer the negatives of a grapple without paying the cost yourself.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Would have to disagree on that take. The Grappler feat might not be the optimizers pick, but it is still more valuable that that descriptor.

Agree to disagree, I guess?


The third dotpoint sounds more like wanting to have your cake and eat it too with having a target suffer the negatives of a grapple without paying the cost yourself.

You may well be right, it might be a bit much. As Sorinth pointed out, it would allow GWM attacks upon a pinned opponent. Which was not actually my intent (it was to grapple/prone more than 2 opponents at once) but would definitely be possible. I was more picturing holding 3 down while Unarmed FS head-butting or kicking one to death (adding in Giant's Might for more Oomph) and your buddies kill the other two.

Although I'd point out that reducing your own speed to zero on a grappler is a not-insignificant debuff, as Spike Growth and other environmental hazard shenanigans become impossible at that point.

[Dr.Samurai]

There are a few things existing in-game already that thematically do those things already.

Unarmed Fighting Style (accessible cross class via Fighting Initiate feat) adds a free 1d4 damage at the start of each of your turns that you are grappling a target (in addition to the 1d6/1d8 fisticuffs)

The Grappler feat gives you advantage on attack rolls vs targets you are grappling, and gives you a mechanic to attempt to pin/restrain a grappled target

Tavern Brawler feat gives a way to initiate grapples as a bonus action
To clarify, none of the things you list here do what the OP is proposing as modifications to the Grappler feat.

The third dotpoint sounds more like wanting to have your cake and eat it too with having a target suffer the negatives of a grapple without paying the cost yourself.
Or it could be thematic and appropriate for an adventurer that specializes in ground and pound. Speed is reduced to zero so there is a penalty, but this master of grappling can still defend themselves and take advantage of the position they've put their enemy in, as opposed to being Restrained themselves.

[Hytheter]

Which was not actually my intent (it was to grapple/prone more than 2 opponents at once) but would definitely be possible. I was more picturing holding 3 down while Unarmed FS head-butting or kicking one to death (adding in Giant's Might for more Oomph) and your buddies kill the other two.

Why not enable that directly then instead of being so roundabout?

While you are grappling an enemy using each of your hands, you may grapple up to one additional enemy as though you had a free hand to spare.

Or some such.

[RogueJK]

The Grappler feat might not be the optimizers pick, but it is still more valuable that that descriptor.

The first half of the Grappler feat is weak/redundant. The second half of the Grappler feat is demonstrably pointless/actively detrimental.

First half: Advantage against creatures you've Grappled. Potentially situationally useful, but you can achieve the same Advantage effect with shoving them Prone and Grappling them so they can't stand up. Plus a Grappled Prone enemy allows not only you to have Advantage, but your other melee teammates as well! (Especially handy for the party Rogue, or that critical-smite-fishing Elven Accuracy Hexadin ally, or a GWM melee teammate, or a Goblin Grim Reaper's "Bad Touch" (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25417080&postcount=1405).) Furthermore, being Grappled Prone also gives the enemy Disadvantage on their attacks.

Second half: Use your Action to pin a Grappled creature, resulting in both you and the enemy being Restrained. Cool, so you've spent your entire Action to debuff the previously Grappled enemy, but done the same to yourself in the process. The Restrained condition renders the enemy's speed 0, but being Grappled did that in the first place. And now you're Restrained too, so now you can't move either. At least when merely Grappling the enemy, you can continue to move (at half speed). Restrained gives the enemy Disadvantage on their attacks, and you have Advantage on attacks against them, just like a Grappled Prone enemy. But with a Pin you're Restrained too, so that same enemy has Advantage on their attacks against you, and you have Disadvantage on your attacks. This means the Advantage/Disadvantage cancel out, resulting in both you and your pinned enemy just making normal straight attack rolls against each other. In this aspect, pinning an enemy with Grappler is no different than simply Grappling the enemy in the first place, except it wastes another entire Action, and inflicts the Restrained debuff to yourself. The enemy being Restrained means your teammates can have Advantage on attacking the enemy too, but you also being Restrained means all the enemy's teammates now have Advantage when attacking you as well. Whereas Shoving the enemy prone and Grappling them to hold them there still gives both you and your melee teammates Advantage, and the enemy Disadvantage, without eliminating your own movement or opening yourself up to the enemy's teammates getting Advantage against you. Plus, you can substitute a Shove or Grapple in place of a single attack, rather than having to use your entire Action to pin an enemy with Grappler. This means you can Grapple Prone an enemy in one turn alone (especially if you have the Shield Master/Tavern Brawler feat), as opposed to it taking two of your turns to Grapple + Pin an enemy with Grappler, for a strictly worse effect.

In conclusion: The Grappler feat is truly excremental, and a complete trap for an ASI, since standard Grappling or especially Grappling Prone is better in a number of ways, and doesn't cost a feat. Grappler is quite literally the worst feat in the game, no exaggeration. (It's not even a half-feat as a consolation prize, like some of the other feats widely considered to be poor choices, such as Weapon Master, Athlete, or Durable.)

[Guy Lombard-O]

Why not enable that directly then instead of being so roundabout?

While you are grappling an enemy using each of your hands, you may grapple up to one additional enemy as though you had a free hand to spare.

Or some such.

Well, for one thing I wanted to add in the flavor visual for using the legs, as it both makes the feat feel more like you're grappling and less like you've developed some sort of psychic 3rd hand. For another, I feel like the "reduce to zero movement" helps balance the feat and keep it from being obviously overpowered.

Also, I'm a natural born perambulator, and enjoy coming at my goal circuitously. :smallbiggrin:

[Hytheter]

Well, for one thing I wanted to add in the flavor visual for using the legs, as it both makes the feat feel more like you're grappling and less like you've developed some sort of psychic 3rd hand. For another, I feel like the "reduce to zero movement" helps balance the feat and keep it from being obviously overpowered.

Also, I'm a natural born perambulator, and enjoy coming at my goal circuitously. :smallbiggrin:

By all means, keep the flavour. I just think the effect can be simplified as just a third grapple for when your hands are full, and it prevents GWM abuse too.

[MoiMagnus]

What we used in our last campaign:

Grappler

While grappling is limited to creature that are no more than one size larger than you, you can instead climb on creatures that are more than one size larger than you. Up to the following exceptions, climbing on a creature works like grappling it: a creature climbed on does not have its speed reduced to 0 by the grappled condition (and can still benefits from any bonus to its speed as usual), whenever the creature climbed on moves the climber moves with it (similar to how mounted combat works), the climber cannot move away from the creature climbed on without releasing it (it can however reposition itself on the creature climbed on).
If a creature you grappled (or climbed on) were to be moved, including by teleportation, you can chose between releasing the grapple (or the climb) or chose to move with them. If you do so, the GM determines if the movement still happen of fails.
You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling (or climbing on).
You can make the "grapple" (or "climb on") special action instead of any single unarmed strike. In particular, you can do so as part of the Attack action, or as an Attacks of Opportunity.
You can use your action to try to pin a creature grappled by you. To do so, make another grapple check. If you succeed, you and the creature are both restrained until the grapple ends. <= Technically this part wasn't removed from the feat, but it was never used by the player so it's unclear if the GM would have houseruled it.


(Note: it is assumed that anybody trying to climb on a creature without this feat would have a disadvantage to most of their actions given the difficulty of "mounting" a creature hostile to you. This feat also exempt you from most of those disadvantages.)

[strangebloke]

Honestly there's a good grappling feat in the game already, its just called tavern brawler for some reason.

[RogueJK]

Kinda, sorta, not really.

Tavern Brawler is undoubtedly better than Grappler (because it couldn't be any worse), though it only works best on an unarmed warrior, like Unarmed Fighting Style Fighter or a Barbarian focusing on Unarmed Strikes. But you can still effectively grapple without being unarmed, and Tavern Brawler isn't a great option for an armed grappler like a STR Rogue, Paladin, or Swords Bard, all of which rely on weapons for various abilities. It's also redundant for a Grappler Monk.

Let's break it down:

-STR/CON Half Feat. Pretty solid. Even if you don't plan to use all of the other benefits, you're still able to round out an odd STR/CON score, and if you're building around being a melee grappler you're almost certainly going to be wanting a higher STR and CON.

-Proficient with improved weapons. Flavorful, but not all that useful. If you're going to be using a weapon, you'll typically be using a "real" weapon. Especially once you start running into monsters who are resistant/immune to non-magic weapons. (There are magic weapons, and there are magic items that make your unarmed strikes or natural weapons magical, but there are not magic items that make your improvised weapons magical...)

-Unarmed strikes now do d4 damage. A slight bump over the basic 1+STR, but a number of races have the same or better d4/d6 for unarmed strikes, like Tabaxis, Tortles, Lizardfolk, Minotaurs, etc. Redundant on a Grapple Monk, who already does d4 unarmed damage from Level 1. If you're going to be utilizing Unarmed Strikes and Grappling, the Unarmed Fighting Style's d6/d8 unarmed damage and bonus d4 grapple damage is a better option for boosting your damage, gained either from being a Fighter, dipping Fighter, or potentially taking the Fighting Initiate feat.

-Bonus Action Grapple attempt if you hit with an unarmed strike or improved weapon. Possibly useful for a Fighter/Barbarian focusing on Unarmed Strikes, provided they don't have a bunch of other competition for their Bonus Actions. Also redundant on a Grappler Monk, who can already make a BA Grapple attempt using their Martial Arts BA attack, even if their Attack Action unarmed strikes miss. As noted above, you almost certainly won't be using improvised weapons, at least outside of Tier 1ish. Not useful for an grappler armed with a "real" weapon.

So even Tavern Brawler is only a fair-to-middling feat, potentially useful only on a certain specific type of non-Monk Unarmed Grappler build. Still way better than Grappler, though. :smallwink:


I guess I'll go ahead and address Shield Master too, since it's the other feat that can be utilized to potentially make a Grappler better/more efficient. Like Tavern Brawler, it's a fair-to-middling feat that's potentially useful on a certain specific type of Grappler build, namely an Unarmed Grappler wielding a shield and a free hand. However, you have to be willing to give up the d8 damage from Unarmed Fighting Style (or not take it in the first place and just plan to rely on the unarmed damage boost from racial claws/bite/horns/etc.), and you must not care that you can only grapple one enemy at a time (compared to the two at a time of a dual-bare-handed grappler).

-If you take the Attack action, you get a BA Shove attempt. This lets you Grapple with one or more of your Attacks, and then use your BA to shove the grappled enemy Prone, from which they cannot stand up since they're Grappled and their speed is 0. Unlike Tavern Brawler, you can still use this BA ability on a turn even if all your Attacks miss.

-Shield's AC bonus to DEX saves that only target you. Situationally nice, on occasion. Since you're a melee grappler, you're likely to be focusing on STR and CON, and unlikely to be maxing DEX. So the extra +2ish can be handy. But most DEX save effects target an area, or target more than one person, so it may or may not come into play all that often... It won't help against the vastly more common AoE DEX save effects like Dragon's Breath or a Fireball.

-Can spend your Reaction to take no damage if you make your save on a DEX-save-for-half damage effect. Quasi-Evasion, once per round, and unlike the earlier DEX save bonus, this does apply to AoE effects. Possibly solid, provided you don't have another regular use of your Reaction, and provided you have a decent DEX save bonus so you'll have a fair chance at making these DEX saves. So not that useful on a build that totally dumps DEX down to 8, but potentially useful on a Grappler with moderate DEX score plus proficiency in DEX saves from their class (like a Ranger or Bard, or a multiclass character who started out Rogue but stopped progressing as a Rogue before Level 7).

Not a half-feat, though... :smallfrown: Still way better than Grappler.

[strangebloke]

So even Tavern Brawler is only a fair-to-middling feat, potentially useful only on a certain specific type of build. Still better than Grappler, though. :smallwink:

It's good for builds that can use it. so I don't see the issue saying it's 'good.' But I think the main reason people don't talk about it more (besides it not working with many builds) is that it makes grappling more efficient, but not more rewarding.

What people really want is to break the enemy's spine over their knee, or fly into the air for a WWE powerbomb like Hoarah Loux. "You get a BA grapple so you don't have to use an attack" is functional but not particularly sexy.