What happens to Warforged Components if you become a non-Warforged? (3.5)

[Geeksthenewsexy]

Examples:

1) Changeling using the Racial Emulation feat to 'count as the race you are emulating for all other purposes' gets a component installed while emulating a Warforged. What happens to that component when they shift back?
1a)Hell, since you'd qualify to take one of the 'body' feats that modify your armor plating...how would that work when you used your ability to change shape into a different type of humanoid?

2) You're a warforged tricked out with all the cool components, but undergo the Draconic Rite to become a Dragonborn. What happens to the components?

I can see attached components maybe just falling off (possibly meaning you no longer have an arm where that armblade used to be...)...but what about Embedded components? Especially the slotless ones like Essence of the Guard that presumably go INSIDE your body somewhere? Or would you just...keep them, and they become non-removable? I haven't been able to find any official ruling anywhere. If anyone knows any errata that would apply, I'd greatly appreciate a source.

[Psyren]

1) Doesn't work because Racial Emulation only lets you become a humanoid, whereas Warforged are (Living) Constructs.

2) As written they count as Warforged and can still use components. I believe there's even a FAQ that says they can still use stuff that relies on the composite plating despite losing it, similar to getting Unarmored Body for free.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

1) Doesn't work because Racial Emulation only lets you become a humanoid, whereas Warforged are (Living) Constructs.

2) As written they count as Warforged and can still use components. I believe there's even a FAQ that says they can still use stuff that relies on the composite plating despite losing it, similar to getting Unarmored Body for free.

1.) Ah! I always thought they were humanoids because I misread their entry "Warforged appear as massive humanoids" I'd always had it in the back of my mind that it said they 'were massive humanoids'. Thank you for pointing that out!

2.) Neat! Cyborg Dragonforged - I dig it. :)

[ShurikVch]

1) Changeling using the Racial Emulation feat to 'count as the race you are emulating for all other purposes' gets a component installed while emulating a Warforged. What happens to that component when they shift back?
1a)Hell, since you'd qualify to take one of the 'body' feats that modify your armor plating...how would that work when you used your ability to change shape into a different type of humanoid?

1) Doesn't work because Racial Emulation only lets you become a humanoid, whereas Warforged are (Living) Constructs.
Firstly: Warforged affected by the Greater Humanoid Essence (or by Incarnate Construct) spell is Humanoid - and thus, legal for Racial Emulation (Minor Change Shape is based on Disguise Self (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm), after all, and illusion spells could show something which don't even exist at all - let alone something which actually possible)
Warforged after the Incarnate Construct spell is still Warforged - therefore, legal for warforged components
Renegade Mastermaker is able to wear a Battlefist without being Warforged
Some people say you can even UMD warforged components...

But if Warforged would die and reincarnate - then all components should fall off (unless the new form is Warforged too)

[Jack_Simth]

But if Warforged would die and reincarnate - then all components should fall off (unless the new form is Warforged too)I wouldn't say they fall off - reincarnate produces a new body, so they'd have to be re-applied, and... well, new body doesn't qualify.

Except that it might. Reincarnate creates living bodies, and is supposed to get type-specific tables for other types of creatures. And there aren't many living constructs....

[Gruftzwerg]

Firstly: Warforged affected by the Greater Humanoid Essence (or by Incarnate Construct) spell is Humanoid - and thus, legal for Racial Emulation (Minor Change Shape is based on Disguise Self (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm), after all, and illusion spells could show something which don't even exist at all - let alone something which actually possible)
Warforged after the Incarnate Construct spell is still Warforged - therefore, legal for warforged components
Renegade Mastermaker is able to wear a Battlefist without being Warforged
Some people say you can even UMD warforged components...



Sorry but you still can't target Warforged via Racial Emulation:

It's "Specific Trumps General" and not "Specific Becomes General"


Greater Humanoid Essence and Incarnate Construct spell are specific exceptions. And there is no legal way to access those as a Changeling.

To explain what is missing here, take as example the warshapers "Morphic Weapons"(MW) and "Unarmed Strike"(US).
MW allows to grow "Natural Weapons" (NW). By default, US are not NW. You need the monk's US ability to let US count as NA (for the purposes of effects).
A warshaper without the monk's US ability can't access that specific exception with his Morphic Weapon ability. The Warshaper needs to have that exception himself, by having the monk's US ability himself, to be able to grow Unarmed Strikes.

Now back to our chase with a Changeling's Racial Emulation ability. The changeling can't access the specific "Greater Humanoid Essence" and "Incarnate Construct" rules to use it together with his Racial Emulation ability. The fact that other specific individuals would be theoretical legal targets doesn't help you here.

Another example:
A druid can't bypass Wild Shape's size restriction by claiming the "Alternate Form" ability of that target creature has a legal size (for Wild Shape).


No matter how you wanna approach this, a Changeling will never access specific Warshaper stuff via Racial Emulation.

[ShurikVch]

Sorry but you still can't target Warforged via Racial Emulation:

It's "Specific Trumps General" and not "Specific Becomes General"


Greater Humanoid Essence and Incarnate Construct spell are specific exceptions. And there is no legal way to access those as a Changeling.
Do you mean a dragon polymorphed into a human can't be zapped with Charm Person?
If not - then what's your point? :smallconfused:


To explain what is missing here, take as example the warshapers "Morphic Weapons"(MW) and "Unarmed Strike"(US).
MW allows to grow "Natural Weapons" (NW). By default, US are not NW. You need the monk's US ability to let US count as NA (for the purposes of effects).
A warshaper without the monk's US ability can't access that specific exception with his Morphic Weapon ability. The Warshaper needs to have that exception himself, by having the monk's US ability himself, to be able to grow Unarmed Strikes.
Really?..

Effect: A fanged ring grants its wearer the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat. If the wearer deals a critical hit with an unarmed strike, he also deals 1 point of Constitution damage to the creature struck.
Now, Improved Natural Attack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack):

Improved Natural Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Natural weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons), base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.
Unarmed Strike is natural weapon
And you can grow your Unarmed Strike - it's on the all guides for Unarmed Strike optimization


Now back to our chase with a Changeling's Racial Emulation ability. The changeling can't access the specific "Greater Humanoid Essence" and "Incarnate Construct" rules to use it together with his Racial Emulation ability. The fact that other specific individuals would be theoretical legal targets doesn't help you here.
Why?


Another example:
A druid can't bypass Wild Shape's size restriction by claiming the "Alternate Form" ability of that target creature has a legal size (for Wild Shape).
Now I don't even understand what's you're trying to say there
Size is legal - yes or no?


No matter how you wanna approach this, a Changeling will never access specific Warshaper stuff via Racial Emulation.
Which stuff?
(Also - Warshaper isn't a race; do you mean - Warforged?)

[loky1109]

Shurik, anybody can became humanoid via Shapechange. Does this means I can became anybody via Racial Emulation? I don't think so. Or maybe I can Racial Emulate into Adamantine Golem? Because of Greater Humanoid Essence?

[Doctor Despair]

Shurik, anybody can became humanoid via Shapechange. Does this means I can became anybody via Racial Emulation? I don't think so. Or maybe I can Racial Emulate into Adamantine Golem? Because of Greater Humanoid Essence?

Yes, actually, but that isn't as impactful as you think. Remember, Racial Emulation only lets you count as that RACE for certain effects. You still wouldn't count as a construct, or get any golem traits. If some cast a hypothetical Detect Golem spell, you would ping as a Golem.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The same way you can't Alter Self or Alternate Form to take the form of any epic construct because "they can be affected by GHumanoid Essence‚ so I can change into a Zodar". "Zodar affected by GHE" is not a race. "Warforged affected by GHE" or "Incarnate Construct" isn't either. You can disguise yourself as a warforged‚ but not use racial emulation because you can only emulate an humanoid race.

[ciopo]

Unarmed Strike is natural weapon

but iteratives? unarmed strike is listed under weapons in the srd, and not under natural weapons when those are listed in this or that book ( only one I have on hand right now is rules compendium )

I'm with Gruftzwerg here, normal unarmed strike isn't a natural weapon, feat improved unarmed strike isn't a natural weapon either, monk unarmed strike is both because it specifically says so
"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

making it an exception, not the general

[Doctor Despair]

The same way you can't Alter Self or Alternate Form to take the form of any epic construct because "they can be affected by GHumanoid Essence‚ so I can change into a Zodar". "Zodar affected by GHE" is not a race. "Warforged affected by GHE" or "Incarnate Construct" isn't either. You can disguise yourself as a warforged‚ but not use racial emulation because you can only emulate an humanoid race.


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example). You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player's Handbook). You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype.

Where in the feat does it say you emulate a humanoid race? You emulate the subtypes of a humanoid creature. Disguise self is different than alter self or alternate form. You don't take on the form of a generic member of a race; you take on the form of a specific creature.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yes, actually, but that isn't as impactful as you think. Remember, Racial Emulation only lets you count as that RACE for certain effects. You still wouldn't count as a construct, or get any golem traits. If some cast a hypothetical Detect Golem spell, you would ping as a Golem.

"Yes I wish to emulate a GHE'd Half-Golem Illithid please. Yes of course it allows me to enter Illithid Savant‚ I have the right subtype after all."

[ShurikVch]

but iteratives? unarmed strike is listed under weapons in the srd, and not under natural weapons when those are listed in this or that book ( only one I have on hand right now is rules compendium )

I'm with Gruftzwerg here, normal unarmed strike isn't a natural weapon, feat improved unarmed strike isn't a natural weapon either, monk unarmed strike is both because it specifically says so
"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

making it an exception, not the general
Magic Fang (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm):

Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
Magic Weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm):

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.
Once again - Unarmed Strike is natural weapon


"Yes I wish to emulate a GHE'd Half-Golem Illithid please. Yes of course it allows me to enter Illithid Savant‚ I have the right subtype after all."
Magic Immunity would stop GHE

[Beni-Kujaku]

Magic Immunity would stop GHE

I was obviously talking about a half-stone golem mind flayer on which Stone to Flesh was cast just before GHE. It's possible‚ so I can emulate it.

[Gruftzwerg]

Do you mean a dragon polymorphed into a human can't be zapped with Charm Person?
If not - then what's your point? :smallconfused:
No, that is not what I meant. To use another example. A monk's US ability lets him use his US as manufactured or natural weapon for the purpose of enhancements and effects. This does not mean that anybody may let his US count as manufactured or natural weapon. You need the specific ability to do so.
If you want to rely on a specific exception, you need to provide it yourself and not rely on other sources. If you want to make use of Racial Emulation with Greater Humanoid Essence or Incarnate Construct spell, you have to provide them yourself. But how is a Changeling gonna get any of those? He just can't.



Really?..

Now, Improved Natural Attack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack):

Unarmed Strike is natural weapon
And you can grow your Unarmed Strike - it's on the all guides for Unarmed Strike optimization

US are not NW.
"Improved Natural Attack" produces an "effect". And as we already know: a monk's US may count as NA for the purpose of "effects". If you lack the monk's US ability (e.g. normal US or even with SUS), you can't qualify for the feat via US.


Why?


Now I don't even understand what's you're trying to say there
Size is legal - yes or no?


This was just another example to show that you can't rely on specific exceptions that your build doesn't have itself.
E.g. Dragon Wild Shape (from Draconomicon) limits you to small or medium sized dragons. Some dragons have Alternate Form abilities to get the form of a medium humanoid. This doesn't allow the druid to shape into a colossal dragon with said ability because the the druid isn't providing that specific rule himself. I hope that you understand the analogy I'm trying to picture here.



Which stuff?
(Also - Warshaper isn't a race; do you mean - Warforged?)

yeah sorry, should have been warforged..^^ i guess i got confused by my own warshaper example and in the hurry of typing..^^

[ShurikVch]

I was obviously talking about a half-stone golem mind flayer on which Stone to Flesh was cast
Wouldn't it turn them into Half-Flesh Golem?
Stone to Flesh (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm):

this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem

[Beni-Kujaku]

Wouldn't it turn them into Half-Flesh Golem?
Stone to Flesh (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm):

Well, that's the thing, there are two contradictory texts and no specific to trump a general:


Immunity to Magic (Ex)
A stone golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A transmute rock to mud spell slows a stone golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all of its lost hit points.

A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round.

And since half-golem keeps the immunity of the "parent", if you go by the text of the spell, then the "stone to flesh removes the immunity" only applies to half-stone golems, which is hilarious.

[liquidformat]

US are not NW.
"Improved Natural Attack" produces an "effect". And as we already know: a monk's US may count as NA for the purpose of "effects". If you lack the monk's US ability (e.g. normal US or even with SUS), you can't qualify for the feat via US.

Sorry you are just wrong here. US is a screwy thing that toes the line between NW and weapon. It is listed under weapons and qualifies for iteratives, but you aren't considered 'armed' nor able to make AOOs with one unless you have IUS, are a monk, other class that piggybacks off monk exception, or holding a touch spell. While US is listed under weapons you can't add any weapon magical abilities directly to unarmed strike nor does it qualify for magic weapon unless you are a monk. It is a NW for the purposes of spells, feats, and abilities.

The screwy thing when we talk about warshaper and its MW ability is all creatures already technically have a US (as it isn't associated with any specific bod part) they just might not have the weapon proficiency to use it without penalty. So a warshaper can increase the size of your US by one size category but doesn't give you weapon proficiency with it. Now including monk into the talk, sure warshaper can increase the size of your US but it can't give you monk US progression as that isn't actually part of the US NW but just a class addon. If you instead have an example of a monster that has a racial US with monk progression based on HD or RHD then you could grow that specific US.

[ciopo]

Magic Fang (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm):

Magic Weapon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm):

Once again - Unarmed Strike is natural weapon


Uh, I am convinced.

Certainly makes it easier to decide what to do with my bear animal companion with whom I was considering taking IUS to qualify for improved grapple, much easier adding an extra secondary attack than having to think about "does it make iteratives with it or what"

so it's the monk that's the exception, and everybody else cannot make iteratives with unarmed strike, sensible enough I guess

[Jervis]

1) Doesn't work because Racial Emulation only lets you become a humanoid, whereas Warforged are (Living) Constructs.

2) As written they count as Warforged and can still use components. I believe there's even a FAQ that says they can still use stuff that relies on the composite plating despite losing it, similar to getting Unarmored Body for free.

I know Troactid used a Dragonborn Warforged once, MechaGodzilla was indeed very cool

[Gruftzwerg]

Sorry you are just wrong here.
I don't claim that I can never proven wrong. But lets see how it is in this chase.




US is a screwy thing that toes the line between NW and weapon. It is listed under weapons and qualifies for iteratives, but you aren't considered 'armed' nor able to make AOOs with one unless you have IUS, are a monk, other class that piggybacks off monk exception, or holding a touch spell.
1. The general rule is that US is a weapon. This is due to them being listed in the Weapons: table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons).

2. The "not considered armed" and doing "nonlethal dmg" (unless -4 to hit) are specific exceptions for US. But that doesn't stop em from still being "weapons" (not manufactured thou, but that is not a requirement of "weapons").

3. IUS, the monk's US (and other classes emulating this ability) and touch spells are even more specific than the "general US rules".

Neither of these more specific rules changes that US are "weapons".




While US is listed under weapons you can't add any weapon magical abilities directly to unarmed strike nor does it qualify for magic weapon unless you are a monk. It is a NW for the purposes of spells, feats, and abilities.
To point you into the right direction, ask yourself the following question:
"Why can't you add any magical weapon abilities to normal non-monk US?"

The answer is, because you can't craft US as masterwork weapon. Not because of an assumed connection to NW, that is not the chase here.

US (in general / non-monks) don't count as NW for spells, feats, and abilities. That is sole the chase for the monk's US (and the abilities that copy it).

US are "weapons". Just not "manufactured" and not "held". And since they are not "manufactured", you can't craft masterwork quality US for adding magic weapon abilities.

I know, you have posted a Magic Fang quote and this will be your next thought while reading this, so let me address that too:
Magic Fang creates a specific exception for itself, what counts as NW. It's not the primary source for US nor the primary source for NW to make such rules on a global level. It can only create those exceptions for its own specific niche.
It's similar to the Invisibility spell which creates a specific exception to count things as "Attack" that aren't normally "Attack(s)" for its own specific niche. But this doesn't become a general rule as said.



The screwy thing when we talk about warshaper and its MW ability is all creatures already technically have a US (as it isn't associated with any specific bod part) they just might not have the weapon proficiency to use it without penalty. So a warshaper can increase the size of your US by one size category but doesn't give you weapon proficiency with it. Now including monk into the talk, sure warshaper can increase the size of your US but it can't give you monk US progression as that isn't actually part of the US NW but just a class addon. If you instead have an example of a monster that has a racial US with monk progression based on HD or RHD then you could grow that specific US.

I agree that all creatures can use US, but that still doesn't qualify em as NW.

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.
For NW it mattes which body part you are using. That specific part is especially useful for combat in comparison to your other body parts. For US this is not the chase. This is (imho) the reason why US disqualifies as NW by RAW. US is the use of body parts not specially useful for combat (which would be NW).

edit: forgot to respond to the mentioned "Fanged Ring":
The item explicitly calls out what it gives you and thus creates a specific exception. This allows even a non-monk to bend the general rules and get legally "Improved Natural Weapon: Unarmed Strike. Specific Trumps General and not Specific Becomes General
I hope I could clear up your doubts.?

[Psyren]

Reading these replies just reminds me why I switched to 5e :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Gruftzwerg]

Reading these replies just reminds me why I switched to 5e :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

well, this is what holds me back to switch away from 3.5^^

I kinda enjoy the madness called 3.5 RAW:belkar:

[unseenmage]

Additional questions if I may..

How does the necrotic cyst line of spells interact with a Construct transformed by Greater Humanoid Essence?

Grafts? Symbiote?

How about Vampirism and Lycanthropy?

I'm pretty sure so long as the Construct is slain by the appropriate vampire ability while it is still a Humanoid it would be affected by Create Spawn.

Lycanthropy is harder to manage. Say a Construct is turned Humanoid and afflicted by lycanthropy. Then the GHE spell duration ends and it becomes a Construct again. When next affected by GHE would the lycanthropy still be there?

I do know that spell effects that a Construct would normally be immune to due to being a Construct don't go away when it's type changes because if so then the Greater Humanoid Essence spell itself would cease to function as soon as it took effect.
But diseases/curse aren't spells so I'm not sure that helps.

[Telonius]

My own ruling (which flagrantly disregards any attempt to make any sense of RAW) is that any components you had attached, are still attached to your new form, cyborg-style. Because that's awesome.

[ShurikVch]

No, that is not what I meant. To use another example. A monk's US ability lets him use his US as manufactured or natural weapon for the purpose of enhancements and effects. This does not mean that anybody may let his US count as manufactured or natural weapon. You need the specific ability to do so.
Ahem...
Apples and oranges?..
How are specific rules for Monk affecting specific rules for Racial Emulation?

If you want to rely on a specific exception, you need to provide it yourself and not rely on other sources. If you want to make use of Racial Emulation with Greater Humanoid Essence or Incarnate Construct spell, you have to provide them yourself. But how is a Changeling gonna get any of those? He just can't.
Nonsense!
Changeling don't need to catch Festering Anger in order to show its dark boils
Then why they should need anything to pretend to be a Warforged?


This was just another example to show that you can't rely on specific exceptions that your build doesn't have itself.
E.g. Dragon Wild Shape (from Draconomicon) limits you to small or medium sized dragons. Some dragons have Alternate Form abilities to get the form of a medium humanoid. This doesn't allow the druid to shape into a colossal dragon with said ability because the the druid isn't providing that specific rule himself. I hope that you understand the analogy I'm trying to picture here.
Right now I can't find why it shouldn't work (Alternate Form forbids templates - not spell effects), but - presuming it actually works - so what?
You're explicitly don't get draconic spellcasting out of it, and - being in the Humanoid form - it also don't give you access to the Dragon's ability scores, movement modes, or even natural AC
Sure, it's kinda weird, but - what's the practical point?



For NW it mattes which body part you are using. That specific part is especially useful for combat in comparison to your other body parts. For US this is not the chase. This is (imho) the reason why US disqualifies as NW by RAW. US is the use of body parts not specially useful for combat (which would be NW).
Slap or Slam (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#slaporSlam):

The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
It doesn't specify - with which "appendage" (especially interesting for Vargouille Zombie)


I know, you have posted a Magic Fang quote and this will be your next thought while reading this, so let me address that too:
Magic Fang creates a specific exception for itself, what counts as NW.

edit: forgot to respond to the mentioned "Fanged Ring":
The item explicitly calls out what it gives you and thus creates a specific exception.
Aren't there a bit too many of "specific exceptions"?
"Specific exception" this, "specific exception" that!..
You know what's happens when in the all the mass of books, magazines, and official online publications is nothing but "specific exceptions"? Exception becomes rule.
So, prove to us it, indeed, works as you says it does.
Show us your quotes...

[Troacctid]

Racial emulation works by copying the humanoid subtype of that race. All humanoids have a subtype associated with their race, such as gnome, human, kenku, etc. So even if you disguise yourself as warforged, they don't have a humanoid subtype to copy, which means you get nothing, you lose, good day sir.


Additional questions if I may..

How does the necrotic cyst line of spells interact with a Construct transformed by Greater Humanoid Essence?

Grafts? Symbiote?
They can affect the construct for the duration of the spell. After that, they do nothing, because constructs are immune.


How about Vampirism and Lycanthropy?

I'm pretty sure so long as the Construct is slain by the appropriate vampire ability while it is still a Humanoid it would be affected by Create Spawn.

Lycanthropy is harder to manage. Say a Construct is turned Humanoid and afflicted by lycanthropy. Then the GHE spell duration ends and it becomes a Construct again. When next affected by GHE would the lycanthropy still be there?

I do know that spell effects that a Construct would normally be immune to due to being a Construct don't go away when it's type changes because if so then the Greater Humanoid Essence spell itself would cease to function as soon as it took effect.
But diseases/curse aren't spells so I'm not sure that helps.
Both vampirism and lycanthropy have an incubation period before they fully take hold. Once the spell's duration runs out, it would most likely break the transformation. However, if the spell were somehow extended long enough to allow the curse to finish incubating, who knows? Maybe it results in a species jump. That's a thing in real-world virology. If it does, the subject could be the first of its kind. (For lycanthropes, anyway. Vampire variants for dragons and illithids are well established in canon.) This is exactly the sort of experiment a mad scientist NPC could try to set up as a plot point.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ahem...
Apples and oranges?..
How are specific rules for Monk affecting specific rules for Racial Emulation?

Nonsense!
Changeling don't need to catch Festering Anger in order to show its dark boils
Then why they should need anything to pretend to be a Warforged?


Right now I can't find why it shouldn't work (Alternate Form forbids templates - not spell effects), but - presuming it actually works - so what?
You're explicitly don't get draconic spellcasting out of it, and - being in the Humanoid form - it also don't give you access to the Dragon's ability scores, movement modes, or even natural AC
Sure, it's kinda weird, but - what's the practical point?



Slap or Slam (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#slaporSlam):

It doesn't specify - with which "appendage" (especially interesting for Vargouille Zombie)



Aren't there a bit too many of "specific exceptions"?
"Specific exception" this, "specific exception" that!..
You know what's happens when in the all the mass of books, magazines, and official online publications is nothing but "specific exceptions"? Exception becomes rule.
So, prove to us it, indeed, works as you says it does.
Show us your quotes...

Sorry it's the other way around. I already have given my argument and pointed out the specific rules behind it.

You still haven't provided any global rule from a primary source for NW nor for US that "US are NW". Only specific stuff. But that doesn't become a general rule. As said with the monk's US: Just because someone with the monk's US can enhance it as manufactured or natural weapon, doesn't mean that anybody can do it (that lacks the ability).

Slap is just another example where the ability is clearly listed as NW and it specifically calls out an exception to the regular NW rules. Same as US makes specific exceptions targeting the "weapon" rules. Specific != General

And regarding the "specific and more specific than that stuff". That is how the 3.5 rules work. Sometimes you have multiple layers of rules each becoming more specific. And with the help of the Primary Source Rule you can always compare how 2 rules stand to each other. Just because you can only compare 2 at a time doesn't stop you to compare multiple rules by "rinse and repeat" always comparing 2 rules to each other.

And even if we would have a bazillion specific exceptions, those still wouldn't pile up to become a general rule. They would still remain a bazillion exceptions.

[liquidformat]

*Why US is a weapon but not an NW*
Please read Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) Specifically

"You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell."

Emphasis mine. US is a NW that has iteratives as a weapon, all that monk is doing is allowing it to be treated as a manufactured weapon for spells that only effect those.

[ShurikVch]

And even Unarmed Strike discussion aside - there is still no proof any of methods of Warforged emulation suggested by me to don't actually work
"Specific exception" isn't a magical words: explain, in what fashion it's "exception", from which rule, and why, exactly, it doesn't works

[icefractal]

For something like Polymorph, it's clear - you can only turn into a typical member of a species, not a specific example. Which means that the present of GHE doesn't let you turn into a Humanoid Adamantine Golem, any more than you could turn into "a Dwarf, but with 100 in all physical stats".

As mentioned, the Changeling's ability mentions Disguise Self as its basis though. That makes things unclear, because since Disguise Self doesn't normally change your type (or any other stats), it's not written in terms of having a "target". It doesn't even say you "look like a different race", it just says you look "different". For example, you could use Disguise Self to look like a purple-skinned humanoid with huge elf ears, solid green eyes with dollar-signs for pupils, and three horns, despite no such race existing in the setting.

IMO, the Racial Emulation feat is somewhat questionably written. It says "When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes." But Disguise Self isn't written that way! You don't cast "Disguise Self: Elf" or "Disguise Self: Legolas", you simply cast Disguise Self and choose to have a build, face, hair, ears, etc that resemble Legolas. And you could just as easily look like Legolas except with goat eyes, for example.

The parsing that makes the most sense is "If a specific creature who is a Humanoid exists, and you use Minor Change Shape to resemble that specific creature as much as possible, then you emulate the subtypes". So in that case, GHE would qualify if you actually know of a real creature who has it cast on them at the time you change shape. But they have to actually exist and be known to you (and you know what they look like), not just "hypothetically could exist". So to use this for a character, they would need access to GHE and a willing accomplice.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

"Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the super natural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action."

"Disguise Self: You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person. The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. A battleaxe made to look like a dagger still functions as a battleaxe."

"Racial Emulation: When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example). You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player's Handbook). You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype."

Everything is clear up until you hit Racial Emulation's slightly different, but not explicitly written wording.

If I'm reading things correctly, a Changeling could look like anything that is 'humanoid shaped' of the appropriate size (medium) as per the racial ability - and Warforged physical description specifies that it is shaped like a humanoid, and is thus valid for the ability. But Racial Emulation uses slightly different language and states when you emulate 'a humanoid creature' but does not say 'creature of the humanoid type', just as it does not say 'humanoid-shaped'. As it is referencing their Minor Shape Change racial ability (General), and there is no other example (Specific) of it ever referring to a the humanoid type...wouldn't it follow that 'a humanoid creature' refers to the ability's restriction of 'humanoid-shaped creature' and not a 'creature of the humanoid type? If we follow the rules of 'General rules apply unless specifically excepted', this is not actually 'specifically excepted' - simply worded differently, and if it can be interpreted in multiple ways...we're supposed to follow the 'General rules' that apply, which would be the original ability's wording. Yes? No?

[Gruftzwerg]

Please read Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm) Specifically

"You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell."

Emphasis mine. US is a NW that has iteratives as a weapon, all that monk is doing is allowing it to be treated as a manufactured weapon for spells that only effect those.
Please read the Primary Source Rule:
(Sorry for pulling out that old joker again, it's getting kinda annoying for me too..^^)
Whenever 2 rules contradict each other the Primary Source is the correct one. Magic Weapon is not the Primary Source for NW nor for US and thus any changes it tries to make is sole for its own niche and not on a global level. I refer to the Invisibility spell: The changes made to the definition of what counts as an "Attack" don't become global/general rules. These changes (Magic Weapon and Invisibility) are both only for their own specific niche. Specific Trumps General and doesn't become general.

We are still running circles here.


For something like Polymorph, it's clear - you can only turn into a typical member of a species, not a specific example. Which means that the present of GHE doesn't let you turn into a Humanoid Adamantine Golem, any more than you could turn into "a Dwarf, but with 100 in all physical stats".

As mentioned, the Changeling's ability mentions Disguise Self as its basis though. That makes things unclear, because since Disguise Self doesn't normally change your type (or any other stats), it's not written in terms of having a "target". It doesn't even say you "look like a different race", it just says you look "different". For example, you could use Disguise Self to look like a purple-skinned humanoid with huge elf ears, solid green eyes with dollar-signs for pupils, and three horns, despite no such race existing in the setting.

IMO, the Racial Emulation feat is somewhat questionably written. It says "When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes." But Disguise Self isn't written that way! You don't cast "Disguise Self: Elf" or "Disguise Self: Legolas", you simply cast Disguise Self and choose to have a build, face, hair, ears, etc that resemble Legolas. And you could just as easily look like Legolas except with goat eyes, for example.

The parsing that makes the most sense is "If a specific creature who is a Humanoid exists, and you use Minor Change Shape to resemble that specific creature as much as possible, then you emulate the subtypes". So in that case, GHE would qualify if you actually know of a real creature who has it cast on them at the time you change shape. But they have to actually exist and be known to you (and you know what they look like), not just "hypothetically could exist". So to use this for a character, they would need access to GHE and a willing accomplice.

While the changelings ability mentions Disguise Self as base, it gives specific alterations to how the effect should be handled (It's not an illusionary effect anymore).

Racial Emulation only seems broken at first glance, because we tend to assume that it works whenever we use the "Minor Change Shape" ability. But that is not the chase here:

When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, ...
Sole when the changeling uses Minor Change Shape to disguise as a humanoid type the feat comes into effect. A changeling can still use the ability to appear like a humanoid-shaped undead/outsider/..., it's just that Racial Emulation has no effect on those non-humanoid type forms. Otherwise the feat would be imho to OP if it could emulate any race (and thus types as undead / outsider).

edit:

But Racial Emulation uses slightly different language and states when you emulate 'a humanoid creature' but does not say 'creature of the humanoid type', just as it does not say 'humanoid-shaped'. As it is referencing their Minor Shape Change racial ability (General), and there is no other example (Specific) of it ever referring to a the humanoid type...wouldn't it follow that 'a humanoid creature' refers to the ability's restriction of 'humanoid-shaped creature' and not a 'creature of the humanoid type? If we follow the rules of 'General rules apply unless specifically excepted', this is not actually 'specifically excepted' - simply worded differently, and if it can be interpreted in multiple ways...we're supposed to follow the 'General rules' that apply, which would be the original ability's wording. Yes? No?

Try to see the difference here:

"When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, .."
!=
"When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the humanoid form of a creature,.."

The first (original text) is imho clearly referring to the humanoid creature type and not humanoid forms in general as the altered text does.

[Doctor Despair]

Try to see the difference here:

"When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, .."
!=
"When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the humanoid form of a creature,.."

The first (original text) is imho clearly referring to the humanoid creature type and not humanoid forms in general as the altered text does.

In the example of a Warforged with the aforementioned spell cast on it, it has the humanoid creature type. Your distinction really doesn't follow from the text.

[loky1109]

In the example of a Warforged with the aforementioned spell cast on it, it has the humanoid creature type. Your distinction really doesn't follow from the text.
How warforged's appearance with this spell cast and without does differ?

You maybe right by RAW, but it's clear dysfunction.

[Doctor Despair]

How warforged's appearance with this spell cast and without does differ?

You maybe right by RAW, but it's clear dysfunction.

Oh, it's absolutely unintended. I am fairly confident on the RAW though. Their appearance differs as the spell defines (if it specifies at all), and as DM fiat decrees. However, as long as the humanoid warforged is in the scope of disguise self, a Changeling should be able to nab their subtypes as per the feat.

[Gruftzwerg]

Oh, it's absolutely unintended. I am fairly confident on the RAW though. Their appearance differs as the spell defines (if it specifies at all), and as DM fiat decrees. However, as long as the humanoid warforged is in the scope of disguise self, a Changeling should be able to nab their subtypes as per the feat.

Neither of the two mentioned ways to change a warforged into a humanoid provides them with a subtype. And Racial Emulation relies on a subtype to work at all. And since those methods to become a humanoid are more specific than the general rule that all humanoids have subtypes, it's a specific trumps general situation. A warforged humanoid as target form for Racial Emulation is still dysfunctional due to the lack of a subtype.

And I still don't believe that it is legal to assume XYZ (magic items/spells/abilities used by the virtual target form) to make a target form legal for an ability/spell.

[icefractal]

Hmm, that's true, a Warforged under GHE would just have the type "Humanoid", not "Humanoid (warforged)". And Racial Emulation is unclear on whether counting as that type for requirements is an effect of having the subtype or an entirely separate benefit.

I'm not even sure whether Racial Emulation works with hypothetical creatures in any case.
"When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes."
The language is ambiguous, because "a humanoid creature" could mean "an elf", or it could mean "Bob, 3rd level Elf Expert, age 153, alignment LN, runs an apothecary shop in Sharn, has a scar on one ear, usually wears expensive but unfashionable clothing".
For GHE to work, it has to mean "specific creature" though, which means you need a non-hypothetical subject.

[loky1109]

And I still don't believe that it is legal to assume XYZ (magic items/spells/abilities used by the virtual target form) to make a target form legal for an ability/spell.

Issue is warforged isn't target for Racial Emulation. Target - ok. Use GHE? Take Hold Person. No issues. But Minor Change Shape + Racial Emulation doesn't target example to follow.

[Gruftzwerg]

If a warforged with GHE is legal target for Racial Emulation, then a Beholder with Polymorph any Object (into a humanoid) is also a legal target.

So a Changeling with Racial Emulation and Assume Supernatural Ability can enter Beholder Mage at lvl 1 (assuming a flaw)...

This is where we end up, if we follow the interpretation that a legal subtype is irrelevant for Racial Emulation. Sorry, I don't buy this interpretation.

[ShurikVch]

US is a screwy thing
And it was even more screwy in the 3.0: back then, it - despite being listed in the Table 7–4: Weapons - was also included in the "Special Attacks and Damage" (along with such things as Bull Rush)
One of people on this very forum answered the question of "Is US a weapon or NW?" by "Neither. It's a complete lack of weapon - hence the name."



Neither of the two mentioned ways to change a warforged into a humanoid provides them with a subtype. And Racial Emulation relies on a subtype to work at all. And since those methods to become a humanoid are more specific than the general rule that all humanoids have subtypes, it's a specific trumps general situation. A warforged humanoid as target form for Racial Emulation is still dysfunctional due to the lack of a subtype.
It's inaccurate: there is no indication of Racial Emulation relying on a subtype - rather than providing it as a separate benefit
Because - say, Asherati (from the Sandstorm) are lacking of any subtype altogether. Do you really mean Changeling with Racial Emulation wouldn't be able to get the listed benefits from being disguised as Asherati?
(Same question for a number of Humanoid races which are lacking their own subtypes too)



If a warforged with GHE is legal target for Racial Emulation, then a Beholder with Polymorph any Object (into a humanoid) is also a legal target.

So a Changeling with Racial Emulation and Assume Supernatural Ability can enter Beholder Mage at lvl 1 (assuming a flaw)...
Not so easy, buster! PAOed Beholder is lacking their central antimagic eye - thus, no Beholder Mage for you!..
On a slightly more serious note - it's just a throwback of old "can I enter Beholder Mage via PAO?" arguments. (My answer is a strict "No", but some people disagreen...)

[Gruftzwerg]

It's inaccurate: there is no indication of Racial Emulation relying on a subtype - rather than providing it as a separate benefit
Because - say, Asherati (from the Sandstorm) are lacking of any subtype altogether. Do you really mean Changeling with Racial Emulation wouldn't be able to get the listed benefits from being disguised as Asherati?
(Same question for a number of Humanoid races which are lacking their own subtypes too)
Imho if we talk about a strict RAW reading of Racial Emulation, those humanoids would fail to work with the feat.

1. The general rules for the humanoid type assumes all have subtypes.

2. But there exist multiple exceptions to this (Specific Trumps General)

3. Racial Emulation assumes, as stated in the general rules, that all humanoids have subtypes and relies on that.

4. Due to the specific exceptions of those humanoids (who lack a subtype), they don't work as other humanoids in that regard, causing a dysfunction with Racial Emulation.




Not so easy, buster! PAOed Beholder is lacking their central antimagic eye - thus, no Beholder Mage for you!..
On a slightly more serious note - it's just a throwback of old "can I enter Beholder Mage via PAO?" arguments. (My answer is a strict "No", but some people disagreen...)

A PAOed Beholder lacks their central antimagic eye, true. But when the Changeling "Minor Change Shape"s into a humanoid PAOed "beholder"*, his "Assume Supernatural Ability" feat kicks in and provides the form with a Central Antimagic Eye. Specific Trumps General.

* just wanted to point out that I am still not convinced by this use of Racial Emulation. This is just to show how such a reading would break the game imho

edit:
another abuse example would be "True Dragons". So, a changeling assuming the form of a colossal dragon, which is theoretically turned into a medium humanoid, could count and get access to True Dragon stuff.. yummy..
Sorry, I don't buy this interpretation of Racial Emulation.

[Troacctid]

Because - say, Asherati (from the Sandstorm) are lacking of any subtype altogether. Do you really mean Changeling with Racial Emulation wouldn't be able to get the listed benefits from being disguised as Asherati?
(Same question for a number of Humanoid races which are lacking their own subtypes too)
All humanoid races have a subtype for their race. It's a general rule.

[Gruftzwerg]

All humanoid races have a subtype for their race. It's a general rule.

yeah, but those (humanoids) are specific exceptions.

Further, since the rule doesn't specify what they get as subtype if they lack one (correct me pls if I'm wrong on this), this is a dead end. Those humanoid races (and specific situations as mentioned in the thread) lack any subtype and thus can't be accessed by Racial Emulation imho.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

Hmm, that's true, a Warforged under GHE would just have the type "Humanoid", not "Humanoid (warforged)". And Racial Emulation is unclear on whether counting as that type for requirements is an effect of having the subtype or an entirely separate benefit.

I'm not even sure whether Racial Emulation works with hypothetical creatures in any case.
"When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes."
The language is ambiguous, because "a humanoid creature" could mean "an elf", or it could mean "Bob, 3rd level Elf Expert, age 153, alignment LN, runs an apothecary shop in Sharn, has a scar on one ear, usually wears expensive but unfashionable clothing".
For GHE to work, it has to mean "specific creature" though, which means you need a non-hypothetical subject.


4. Due to the specific exceptions of those humanoids (who lack a subtype), they don't work as other humanoids in that regard, causing a dysfunction with Racial Emulation.

"also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes" in this case, I think 'any' clearly indicates 'if it has one or more', as 'any' could also be none if that happens to be the case. Just like how certain apothesis changes that some prestige classes grant can have you 'lose any subtype you had previously' - If you didn't have any, that's fine - but if you did, you lose them, etc.


Further, since the rule doesn't specify what they get as subtype if they lack one (correct me pls if I'm wrong on this), this is a dead end. Those humanoid races (and specific situations as mentioned in the thread) lack any subtype and thus can't be accessed by Racial Emulation imho.

If a race doesn't have a subtype, you can still emulate them and 'count as that race', you just wouldn't get the beenfit of a new subtype if they don't have one in the first place (aside from their general racial subtype - which is, I believe, how one would 'count as that race' when emulating them).

[ShurikVch]

All humanoid races have a subtype for their race. It's a general rule.
a) If no subtype is listed neither in the monster entry, nor in racial statistics - why it should have subtype?
b) Where is that "general rule"? Seriously, I'm legitimately interested. Say, Create Faux Human spell turns animals into humanoids; what's their subtype(s)? Or, for that matter - what subtype(s) have Incarnate Construct?



3. Racial Emulation assumes, as stated in the general rules, that all humanoids have subtypes and relies on that.

4. Due to the specific exceptions of those humanoids (who lack a subtype), they don't work as other humanoids in that regard, causing a dysfunction with Racial Emulation.
Since feat don't give us "Special:" clause, we should presume it works even races without subtype (it forbids to emulate more than one race at the same time - not race without subtypes)
After all, Drow and Gray Elves are both have (elf) subtype, but Changeling with Racial Emulation wouldn't get benefits of Racial Emulation for Drow while being disguised as Gray Elf


A PAOed Beholder lacks their central antimagic eye, true. But when the Changeling "Minor Change Shape"s into a humanoid PAOed "beholder"*, his "Assume Supernatural Ability" feat kicks in and provides the form with a Central Antimagic Eye. Specific Trumps General.
1) Beholder Mage "Must put out central antimagic eye"; how the heck you "put out" a supernatural ability?
2) Assume Supernatural Ability allow to use "a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form"; the "form" in question is "Humanoid" - not "Beholder"
3) No such supernatural ability - Central Antimagic Eye; Beholder's SA is called "Antimagic Cone"


edit:
another abuse example would be "True Dragons". So, a changeling assuming the form of a colossal dragon, which is theoretically turned into a medium humanoid, could count and get access to True Dragon stuff.. yummy..
And what's about "True Dragons"?
Most draconic PrC are either explicitly [epic], or accessible only at the very high level (higher than most games)
Sovereign Archetypes are may be available even for "non-True Dragons"
So what - Spellhoarding Draconic Psychosis?..

[Troacctid]

a) If no subtype is listed neither in the monster entry, nor in racial statistics - why it should have subtype?
b) Where is that "general rule"? Seriously, I'm legitimately interested. Say, Create Faux Human spell turns animals into humanoids; what's their subtype(s)? Or, for that matter - what subtype(s) have Incarnate Construct?
It's from "More Rules Compiled," the web expansion for Rules Compendium.

Various subtypes further differentiate creatures of the humanoid type. These subtypes include the likes of dwarf, elf, human, orc, and so on. Although a creature of a specific race might not have a subtype noted in its statistics, it has the subtype associated with its race.

[Gruftzwerg]

Since feat don't give us "Special:" clause, we should presume it works even races without subtype (it forbids to emulate more than one race at the same time - not race without subtypes)
The feat allows you to get a possible subtype. Imho, it then explains the specific exceptions for getting (!) that subtype. You don't get the traits, but you are considered a member of that race for any purposes.
Like the traits (that we don't get) are tied to obtaining they subtype, counting as that race also relies on getting that subtype in the first place (from Minor Change Shape).



1) Beholder Mage "Must put out central antimagic eye"; how the heck you "put out" a supernatural ability?
2) Assume Supernatural Ability allow to use "a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form"; the "form" in question is "Humanoid" - not "Beholder"
3) No such supernatural ability - Central Antimagic Eye; Beholder's SA is called "Antimagic Cone"
1) by removing the central eye (body part - "putting it out") which the Antimagic Cone ability is tied to:
"Antimagic Cone (Su): A beholder's central eye continually produces ..."

2) It's still a beholder "creature". If a Changeling can assume that the type of a target creature has changed (warforged humanoid), why would you forbid a form change of the target creature? A beholder (creature) in human form should also be a legal target if I follow that logic. (Note: this is why I dislike this kind of interpretation in the first place as said)

3) as said in "1)", The Antimagic Cone ability is tied to the "central eye", thus provided by Assume Supernatural Ability feat when we get the ability (Antimagic Cone).




And what's about "True Dragons"?
Most draconic PrC are either explicitly [epic], or accessible only at the very high level (higher than most games)
Sovereign Archetypes are may be available even for "non-True Dragons"
So what - Spellhoarding Draconic Psychosis?..
Most people here in the forum argue that those are too strong and that they break the game balance (at least when it comes to DWK). I was just assuming the same would apply here for Changelings.


It's from "More Rules Compiled," the web expansion for Rules Compendium.
I'm curious to read this, since this is the first time I hear about it. I coundn't find it via google..
Anyone got a link for me maybe (kindly asking)?

[ShurikVch]

It's from "More Rules Compiled," the web expansion for Rules Compendium.

Various subtypes further differentiate creatures of the humanoid type. These subtypes include the likes of dwarf, elf, human, orc, and so on. Although a creature of a specific race might not have a subtype noted in its statistics, it has the subtype associated with its race.
So, what subtype(s) have, say, Faux Human Penguin, or Incarnate Construct Magmacore Golem?
(Please, don't take it as a personal attack - I'm just skeptical about rulings in Rules Compendium: the dysfunction of "don't have a power to change Core rules" is a thing...)



1) by removing the central eye (body part - "putting it out") which the Antimagic Cone ability is tied to:
"Antimagic Cone (Su): A beholder's central eye continually produces ..."
Good.
I was afraid you would argue with it too.


2) It's still a beholder "creature". If a Changeling can assume that the type of a target creature has changed (warforged humanoid), why would you forbid a form change of the target creature? A beholder (creature) in human form should also be a legal target if I follow that logic. (Note: this is why I dislike this kind of interpretation in the first place as said)

3) as said in "1)", The Antimagic Cone ability is tied to the "central eye", thus provided by Assume Supernatural Ability feat when we get the ability (Antimagic Cone).
The problem there is: Beholder - in Humanoid form - don't have their Central Antimagic Eye: they don't have "central eye", period.
They may be still in possess of the Antimagic Cone, or not - but regardless, they definitely don't have in that form the Central Antimagic Eye to remove for qualifying for Beholder Mage


I'm curious to read this, since this is the first time I hear about it. I coundn't find it via google..
Anyone got a link for me maybe (kindly asking)?
There it is (https://web.archive.org/web/20090603085430/https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/WE_RulesComp.zip).

[loky1109]

Faux Human Penguin has (human) or (halfling) subtype, depends on what race he is now. As I see Faux Human Penguin doesn't differ from regular human/halfling.


The problem there is: Beholder - in Humanoid form - don't have their Central Antimagic Eye: they don't have "central eye", period.
You are right, but it doesn't solve the problem. Yeah, RE changeling into PAO beholder-human can't go into beholder mage, but not because RE wording. It permits this and this is issue. We can find some humanoid with central eye, I remember DD ciclops are humanoids, aren't they? Or find some another example, not so obviously stupid, but still disfunctional.

[Doctor Despair]

"can I enter Beholder Mage via PAO?"... or racial emulation on a beholder that used PAO?

1. Assume Supernatural Ability probably doesn't let you use supernatural abilities via Minor Change Shape. It specifies you must use a polymorph spell or similar effect. It's very probable that MCS isn't a similar effect to a polymorph spell. With that said, Metamorphic Transfer lacks that rider language, so it would work, but it still bears mention since ASA has come up several times.

2. ASA and MT both let you USE a supernatural ability of the form you are in. A Beholder's Antimagic Cone isn't an ability that can be used; it is continuous. I'm not sure how that interacts with the feats, but unless you can use the continuous ability, you wouldn't have the "central antimagic eye" when you remove your eye.

3. ... also, using ASA and MT wouldn't grow a central eye. The form changing is supposed to do that. If it's a PAO'd beholder, you wouldn't have grown it from that either. You don't have a central eye to remove, so you can't qualify from Racial Emulation/MT.

4. I recently tried a similar trick in a competition, but I'm actually somewhat convinced that using MCS to assume a humanoid form (even if that humanoid is secretly a dragon using alternate form) wouldn't make you count as a dragon. If it's a humanoid type in a humanoid form, you'd count as taking the form of a humanoid, just like the dragon does. It isn't the same situation as taking the form of a warforged with Greater Humanoid Essence active, or a Half-Ogre with Human Heritage, or something similar. Although it says form and not "natural form," it should follow from a common sense reading of the feat.

5. As others have said, RE doesn't rely on subtypes. You count as the race of the humanoid you are emulating. Also, as an added benefit, you gain their subtypes.

[Troacctid]

So, what subtype(s) have, say, Faux Human Penguin, or Incarnate Construct Magmacore Golem?
Augmented construct, I imagine.


the dysfunction of "don't have a power to change Core rules" is a thing...
Uh, it most certainly is not.

[ShurikVch]

Uh, it most certainly is not.
Let me quote (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/revisions/37471/4) the Hey I Can Chan (https://rpg.stackexchange.com):

Seriously, and according to its own texts, Wizards of the Coast says
The Rules Compedium Can't Change the Core Rules

I know it's weird. I know it sounds like nonsense. I know that when the core rules were published things like swift actions didn't exist. I have shed blood on the Internet battlefield between the Rules Compendium declaring free actions are only available on one's turn versus the Player's Handbook slightly vague addressing of the topic, especially in conjunction with immediate actions. I know. I know.

Wizards of the Coast Created a Flawed Paradigm
Here's the skinny: All of the errata documents have this Errata Rule describing Primary Sources


When you find a disagreement between two [Dungeons and Dragons] rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary [versus] secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

Emphasis mine. So the most recent publication of the core rules--the 2013 editions of the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual--are absolutely primary, even if topics within those texts were subtly changed, outright contradicted, or the subject of FAQ or game designer commentary by other texts between 2000 and 2013 before those texts' publications, and even if uncorrected errors remain in any of the most recently published core books that were corrected by other books before the core rule' republication.

Flaws other books set right may have been backwardly-uncorrected--or whatever Orwellian phrase you might want to use--by the republished core rules.

The Rules Compendium Asserts Its Own Primacy
The Rules Compendium's Introduction says


When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence. If you have a question on how to play [Dungeons and Dragons] at the table, this book is meant to answer that question.

So while the Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence, it, officially, can't.

[Troacctid]

Let me quote (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/revisions/37471/4) the Hey I Can Chan (https://rpg.stackexchange.com):
Yes, I'm aware of the spurious argument that occasionally circulates for its meme value. But that's not how rules primacy works, it's not how primary sources work, and it's certainly not how reprints work. In short, it's not a thing. Get outta here with that nonsense.

[ShurikVch]

Yes, I'm aware of the spurious argument that occasionally circulates for its meme value. But that's not how
Then - how?
(With quotes, please)
Anything can be called a meme - but it doesn't mean it's incorrect:
-Pun-Pun is a meme. Get outta here...
See, how easy it is?

[Troacctid]

Then - how?
(With quotes, please)
Anything can be called a meme - but it doesn't mean it's incorrect:
-Pun-Pun is a meme. Get outta here...
See, how easy it is?
The order of rules primacy is General < Specific < Exception (RC 5). "But no it isn't! RC is fake! The errata file takes precedence over everything! That means the PHB automatically wins every rules dispute! All of them! PHB! Blargleargleargle!" Okay then, what happens when a character with Improved Grapple ("You do not incur an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple."), a PHB feat, attempts to grapple a character with Close-Quarters Fighting ("You gain an attack of opportunity whenever an enemy attempts to grapple you, even if the enemy has a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack."), a CW feat? Well gee, since you don't like specific vs. general, let's consult the primary source! The PHB takes precedence over everything, right? So Close-Quarters Fighting is horribly dysfunctional and has no effect whatsoever, right? And the same for any feat, spell, or other special ability that would in any way allow you to break or bypass a core rule, right? No. That's obtuse. Specific beats general. Exception beats specific. That's how this works.

Now, when two conflicting rules items have the same level of specificity, then you have to determine the primary source. What is and isn't a primary source depends on the conflict. In the examples given, a text entry takes precedence over a table entry, a spell's full description takes precedence over its short description, and a sourcebook takes precedence over an adventure module. What your quote references is book and topic precedence, which is the idea that a book has primacy over its own domains. It has this to say: "The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities." In other words, it's not the case that some books are just primary sources and others are not—every book is a primary source, but only within its limited scope. It's absolutely egregious that your link quoted this same passage and declared that it meant all three core books are, as a matter of objective truth, primary sources, since literally the only example of book and topic precedence in the entire game uses both the DMG and MM as secondary sources!

So anyway, every book is both a primary source and a secondary source, depending on what's being looked at and which part of the book is looking at it. That much is explicit in the errata. This means RC is, again, a primary source, and has the authority to change and add rules within its own scope. So that's how rules primacy works, and how primary sources work. That leaves reprints, and the ontological nature of existence. One of the lynchpins of Curmudgeon's argument is the notion that RC only has the authority to override preexisting books, and that since the Player's Handbook was reprinted in 2012, it's not a preexisting book. At the time of RC's printing, the PHB did not exist! Or at least, this specific copy of the PHB that I have right here did not exist. Therefore, RC has no authority over it! To which I say, I had a PDF of RC spiral-bound in 2019, which makes it a more recent printing than the PHB. Therefore, RC still takes precedence, unless you go out and print another copy of the PHB, in which case...you get the idea. That's absolute nonsense. The premium revised edition of the PHB is not a new book; it was originally released in 2003, several years before RC. If the person who originally posited this spurious argument actually owned a copy of the premium reprint, they could have simply looked at page 1, where it clearly says "First Printing: July 2003...©2003 Wizards of the Coast" in the legal text. Printing off a new copy of the book doesn't change the book's release date.

There you are, a detailed 720-word diatribe just for you. Now, my normal freelance rate is $0.08 per word, so that'll be...$57.60 USD please. :smallcool:

[Gruftzwerg]

So, I had time to carefully think about the webextention's statement regarding the humanoid type and subtypes.



HUMANOID RACIAL
Various subtypes further differentiate creatures of the humanoid type. These subtypes include the likes of
dwarf, elf, human, orc, and so on. Although a creature of a specific race might not have a subtype noted in its
statistics, it has the subtype associated with its race.

1. a creature of a specific race != a specific creature of a race
The rule talks about specific (sub) races and not about individual subjects of a race that might have specific stuff going on.

2. subtype associated with its race != the race is the associated subtype
So, which subtype would a Beholder in humanoid (type) form have? We still don't have any mechanical instructions to create any missing subtype.

Imho the sentence is referring to subraces like Drow, Duegar and so on who might lack the subtype of their general race in their entry. I don't see the rule interacting with specific "individuals" who break the norm (by not having a subtype associated with their race overall).

________________________________________

Regarding the Rule Compendium discussion:

I'm with Troacctid.
To back up why RC still works within rule primacy:

1. The Primary Source Rule (PSR) is in the ERRATA
The ERRATA makes a specific call out that it is providing extra rules and how they align with the rule hierarchy. It sets the PSR on top of everything else to solve any rule conflicts.

2. RC and Draconomicon also make special call outs
Books like RC and Draconomicon make explicit call outs (like the ERRATA does for itself) about their place in the rule hierarchy. In the same way the ERRATA gives itself the right to make changes, these books also give themselves the authority to trump rules that have come before.

3. Ignoring those call outs ends only in a big mess
If you would argue that these call outs don't work, you just end in chaos. Because then you don't have any PSR, you can't argue against the RC webextension as lacking the primacy anymore. You lack any rule hierarchy to solve any contradicting rules.

Unless you heavily insist that a rule hierarchy doesn't exist (because of a disbelief in those call-outs), these additional rule sources fit perfectly within the rule hierarchy.
So, if you have one option causing a total mess an the other ensuring perfect harmony, do you go for the interpretation that causes full chaos ?^^
I hope that should clear up the confusion in that regard.
__________________________

Assume Supernatural Ability & Minor Change Shape:


You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect

"similar effect" doesn't limit you to sole polymorph (self)*-like effects. *(converted to 3.5)

The rule names polymorph (self) only as one possible way to change forms and uses it sole as example for similar effects. The requirement here is not to be based on polymorph (self). It is not asking for polymorph (self)-like spells/abilities here.

Further, all those polymorph-like abilities/spells already make a specific call that "they behave like polymorph except...", they would still work without this statement.

[Doctor Despair]

So, I had time to carefully think about the webextention's statement regarding the humanoid type and subtypes.

1. a creature of a specific race != a specific creature of a race
The rule talks about specific (sub) races and not about individual subjects of a race that might have specific stuff going on.

1. I guess? There are hypothetically effects (like reincarnation) that would cause you to lose your subtype. I can't think of any off the top of my head that don't ALSO change your race, but hypothetically one might exist.



2. subtype associated with its race != the race is the associated subtype
So, which subtype would a Beholder in humanoid (type) form have? We still don't have any mechanical instructions to create any missing subtype.

Imho the sentence is referring to subraces like Drow, Duegar and so on who might lack the subtype of their general race in their entry. I don't see the rule interacting with specific "individuals" who break the norm (by not having a subtype associated with their race overall).

2. It seems fairly clear that if you are a race, you have the subtype associated with the race. If a Beholder were PAO'd into a humanoid shape, their race would still be Beholder, and they'd have the (beholder) subtype. However, as Racial Emulation doesn't rely on taking the (X) subtype to count as that race, it's a little irrelevant to the discussion.



Assume Supernatural Ability & Minor Change Shape:


"similar effect" doesn't limit you to sole polymorph (self)*-like effects. *(converted to 3.5)

The rule names polymorph (self) only as one possible way to change forms and uses it sole as example for similar effects. The requirement here is not to be based on polymorph (self). It is not asking for polymorph (self)-like spells/abilities here.

Further, all those polymorph-like abilities/spells already make a specific call that "they behave like polymorph except...", they would still work without this statement.

You can certainly choose to interpret it so that you ignore the requirement that you change form via a polymorph-self spell or similar effect. However, that is not the RAW. It says you must change your form via a similar effect; there are effects that change your form (like MCS) that are not similar to polymorph-self.

[ShurikVch]

The order of rules primacy is General < Specific < Exception (RC 5). "But no it isn't! RC is fake! The errata file takes precedence over everything! That means the PHB automatically wins every rules dispute! All of them! PHB! Blargleargleargle!" Okay then, what happens when a character with Improved Grapple ("You do not incur an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple."), a PHB feat, attempts to grapple a character with Close-Quarters Fighting ("You gain an attack of opportunity whenever an enemy attempts to grapple you, even if the enemy has a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack."), a CW feat? Well gee, since you don't like specific vs. general, let's consult the primary source! The PHB takes precedence over everything, right? So Close-Quarters Fighting is horribly dysfunctional and has no effect whatsoever, right? And the same for any feat, spell, or other special ability that would in any way allow you to break or bypass a core rule, right? No. That's obtuse. Specific beats general. Exception beats specific. That's how this works.

Now, when two conflicting rules items have the same level of specificity, then you have to determine the primary source. What is and isn't a primary source depends on the conflict. In the examples given, a text entry takes precedence over a table entry, a spell's full description takes precedence over its short description, and a sourcebook takes precedence over an adventure module. What your quote references is book and topic precedence, which is the idea that a book has primacy over its own domains. It has this to say: "The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities." In other words, it's not the case that some books are just primary sources and others are not—every book is a primary source, but only within its limited scope. It's absolutely egregious that your link quoted this same passage and declared that it meant all three core books are, as a matter of objective truth, primary sources, since literally the only example of book and topic precedence in the entire game uses both the DMG and MM as secondary sources!

So anyway, every book is both a primary source and a secondary source, depending on what's being looked at and which part of the book is looking at it. That much is explicit in the errata. This means RC is, again, a primary source, and has the authority to change and add rules within its own scope. So that's how rules primacy works, and how primary sources work. That leaves reprints, and the ontological nature of existence. One of the lynchpins of Curmudgeon's argument is the notion that RC only has the authority to override preexisting books, and that since the Player's Handbook was reprinted in 2012, it's not a preexisting book. At the time of RC's printing, the PHB did not exist! Or at least, this specific copy of the PHB that I have right here did not exist. Therefore, RC has no authority over it! To which I say, I had a PDF of RC spiral-bound in 2019, which makes it a more recent printing than the PHB. Therefore, RC still takes precedence, unless you go out and print another copy of the PHB, in which case...you get the idea. That's absolute nonsense. The premium revised edition of the PHB is not a new book; it was originally released in 2003, several years before RC. If the person who originally posited this spurious argument actually owned a copy of the premium reprint, they could have simply looked at page 1, where it clearly says "First Printing: July 2003...©2003 Wizards of the Coast" in the legal text. Printing off a new copy of the book doesn't change the book's release date.

There you are, a detailed 720-word diatribe just for you. Now, my normal freelance rate is $0.08 per word, so that'll be...$57.60 USD please. :smallcool:
Oh my!..
I hope it was an exercise in humor (rather than attempt to build a strawman)

Nobody there is trying to disagree with "General < Specific" (thus, example with CQF isn't applicable - we don't arguing against it)

But, please, tell me: do you take as RAW "Sage Advice", "Rules of the Game", or FAQ? If yes - then OK, good bye! But, if no - then how are they different from the Rules Compendium?

Further, do you think Rules Compendium > Errata? If no - then why you're disregarding the source priority order in any Errata?

And yes - the latest print of PHB is really different from earlier ones (even if just slightly); is your PDF any different from the original RC?

(Also, excuse me to distrusting the book which made it impossible to die of thirst (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=13749616&postcount=850)...)

[Troacctid]

Oh my!..
I hope it was an exercise in humor (rather than attempt to build a strawman)

Nobody there is trying to disagree with "General < Specific" (thus, example with CQF isn't applicable - we don't arguing against it)
...Do you know what book General < Specific comes from?


But, please, tell me: do you take as RAW "Sage Advice", "Rules of the Game", or FAQ? If yes - then OK, good bye! But, if no - then how are they different from the Rules Compendium?
They're not authoritative.


Further, do you think Rules Compendium > Errata? If no - then why you're disregarding the source priority order in any Errata?
So you are here to disagree with General < Specific. You're saying that a general rule from an errata document trumps even a specific rule or exception from a book. The PHB errata says a druid's gear melds into their new form and becomes non-functional. A wilding clasp says the item it's attached to remains functional in wild shape. One's from a book, one's from an errata. Who wins?


And yes - the latest print of PHB is really different from earlier ones (even if just slightly)
Not in its publication date it isn't.


(Also, excuse me to distrusting the book which made it impossible to die of thirst (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=13749616&postcount=850)...)
Uh...you mean the DMG? 🤔

[Gruftzwerg]

2. It seems fairly clear that if you are a race, you have the subtype associated with the race. If a Beholder were PAO'd into a humanoid shape, their race would still be Beholder, and they'd have the (beholder) subtype. However, as Racial Emulation doesn't rely on taking the (X) subtype to count as that race, it's a little irrelevant to the discussion.

IIRC there is no rule specifying this (if you can point me to one, you would make me happy^^).
Then we have races that don't follow this pattern, like "Kobold: Humanoid (Reptilian)".
So, unless there is really a rule telling you to do this, this remains only a good houserule solution.




You can certainly choose to interpret it so that you ignore the requirement that you change form via a polymorph-self spell or similar effect. However, that is not the RAW. It says you must change your form via a similar effect; there are effects that change your form (like MCS) that are not similar to polymorph-self.

Dunno if this is just a language barrier for me, but for me "similar to something" is weaker resemblance than "like something". E.g. Polymorph Self tells that it works "like Polymorph Other".
But here, ASA ask for Polymorph Self or a similar effect. Imho it just asks for any form changing effect, giving Poly Self sole as example.
Dunno, I have barely played 3.0 and can't tell how the normal wording in such chases is. But as shown in Polymorph Self, I believe the common wording would be "to be/work like something" if a similarity in rules is to be expected.

[ShurikVch]

...Do you know what book General < Specific comes from?
Lex specialis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_specialis)
Without it, game just wouldn't work at all: not just wouldn't Close-Quarters Fighting give AoO, but it wouldn't even be needed - because Improved Grapple wouldn't work too, thus AoO would happen anyway


They're not authoritative.
Good.
But you don't answered the second question: how are they different from the RC?


So you are here to disagree with General < Specific. You're saying that a general rule from an errata document trumps even a specific rule or exception from a book. The PHB errata says a druid's gear melds into their new form and becomes non-functional. A wilding clasp says the item it's attached to remains functional in wild shape. One's from a book, one's from an errata. Who wins?
Do you for real see no difference between the adding specific rule and changing general rule?
First - change rule in some specific circumstances; second - changing rule for all possible circumstances (unless, until it's changed by something else)


Not in its publication date it isn't.
So what?
RC have no authority anyway - the fact newer editions are different is just one more reason to disregard it.


Uh...you mean the DMG? 🤔
DMG rules were expanded in Sandstorm - there, you actually could die of thirst:

A character who falls unconscious from nonlethal damage due to thirst begins to take the same amount of lethal damage instead.
But, since RC claims supreme authority, it means we're supposed to use its rules for thirst - and, thus, dehydration is not life-threatening anymore...

[Doctor Despair]

IIRC there is no rule specifying this (if you can point me to one, you would make me happy^^).
Then we have races that don't follow this pattern, like "Kobold: Humanoid (Reptilian)".
So, unless there is really a rule telling you to do this, this remains only a good houserule solution.


You cited the rule. Kobolds would have Humanoid (Reptilian, Kobold). Again, it's not super relevant, as Racial Emulation doesn't RELY on emulating a racial subtype. It just incidentally also does that.




Dunno if this is just a language barrier for me, but for me "similar to something" is weaker resemblance than "like something". E.g. Polymorph Self tells that it works "like Polymorph Other".
But here, ASA ask for Polymorph Self or a similar effect. Imho it just asks for any form changing effect, giving Poly Self sole as example.
Dunno, I have barely played 3.0 and can't tell how the normal wording in such chases is. But as shown in Polymorph Self, I believe the common wording would be "to be/work like something" if a similarity in rules is to be expected.

MCS is similar to disguise self, not polymorph self. It's spelled out in the Changeling ability.

[Geeksthenewsexy]

Kobolds would have Humanoid (Reptilian, Kobold)

So, if you had a way to use the Reduce Person spell at lvl 1, a Changeling with Racial Emulation as their lvl 1 feat could 'count as a Kobold', therefore qualifying for and taking Dragonwrought as a bonus feat (ala Flaws), and now 'count as a dragon'? HHhmmm.....that opens up even more RAW 'now qualifies for' cheese. I really want to make a changeling character with the most 'ALL THE THINGS!' build possible now.

[Doctor Despair]

So, if you had a way to use the Reduce Person spell at lvl 1, a Changeling with Racial Emulation as their lvl 1 feat could 'count as a Kobold', therefore qualifying for and taking Dragonwrought as a bonus feat (ala Flaws), and now 'count as a dragon'? HHhmmm.....that opens up even more RAW 'now qualifies for' cheese. I really want to make a changeling character with the most 'ALL THE THINGS!' build possible now.

Even better; just emulate a Kobold with enlarge person active.

[Gruftzwerg]

You cited the rule. Kobolds would have Humanoid (Reptilian, Kobold). Again, it's not super relevant, as Racial Emulation doesn't RELY on emulating a racial subtype. It just incidentally also does that.




MCS is similar to disguise self, not polymorph self. It's spelled out in the Changeling ability.
As far as I know, this rule only exist as extrapolated info in our minds and not as RAW. If you can find that rule and can point us to it, I would be convinced. But so far I can only say this is a good houserule to solve things that might look dysfunctional to common sense.
Imho the RC webextension still failed to provide mechanical instructions (a rule) how to create a subtype for those races.
And I don't see how the rule we have should give a Kobold a second subtype if he already has one. Kobold already have a subtype, it just doesn't follow the regular pattern (! not a rule !).

While MCS refers to Disguise Self, it also calls out a specific exception that it is not illusion based and that the changes are real (sounds like transmutation if you ask me). Imho here we have a "similarity" to Polymorph. Note that as I said, ASA doesn't use the common terms "like XXX" or "XXX-like". And I haven't seen "similar" defined in d&d nor the frequent use as with "like". So imho, MCS is "similar" to Polymorph (both transmutation effects).


So, if you had a way to use the Reduce Person spell at lvl 1, a Changeling with Racial Emulation as their lvl 1 feat could 'count as a Kobold', therefore qualifying for and taking Dragonwrought as a bonus feat (ala Flaws), and now 'count as a dragon'? HHhmmm.....that opens up even more RAW 'now qualifies for' cheese. I really want to make a changeling character with the most 'ALL THE THINGS!' build possible now.

Yeah with a second feat (e.g flaws) you could become a DWK Changeling and your type would turn into dragon. It's just that they are somewhat crippled compared to real DWK. Because of the lack of "Age Categories" (note: not "Aging Effects" !), you can't argue like a Kobold that you count as "true dragon". But you can still get the things for regular "dragons" which is still a lot of optimization potential. And you can get access to the Draconic Rite of Passage from Kobold to get an SLA 1/day. Especially useful for Sorcerers, be it for the special draconic versions of some spells or the extra casting lvl progression (Gr. draconic rite of passage).