How long can you Dash for?

[Cheesegear]

One of my players wants to get from one side of Town to the other, fast. He asks me how long that would take.
I reply; Depends on how much you Dash.
Reponse; ...How much am I allowed to?

Q. How many times - in a row - can you Dash? How does sprinting work?

The closest rule I could find was regarding the Chase rules in the DMG;

[3+Con] times. Each Dash after that has a DC 10 Con check* for Exhaustion. Exhaustion(L1) gives Disadvantage on ability checks.
*It appears that if you fail the check you still take the Dash, though.

Does this seem like the right rule to use? Is there another rule I can't find?

Also as written the rule doesn't take into account Dashing as a Bonus Action (e.g; Rogue), so maybe that's cool? You know who's really good at Sprinting? Rogues. 'Cause they don't take the Dash Action. Then again, how long can a Rogue sprint for? Infinity? That doesn't seem right.

[Mastikator]

It's up to DM to say. No hard rules.

Personally as a DM I'd say con save every hour, DC = 10 + number of hours ran, fail and become exhausted. An adventurer is supposed to be heroic and amazing so I think a full hour of dashing is something they should be able to do.

[Burley]

Dash doesn't give you an extra move. Using the Dash Action doubles your speed during your Move action.

Incorrect: I Move 30' and then Dash 30'.

Correct: I use Dash and then Move 60'.

What makes the Cunning Action ability (or any other ability that lets you dash as a bonus action) nice is that you can move twice your speed and then still use your action to attack, or you could use your action before you move to disengage to move twice your speed without provoking opportunity attacks.

And, no, you can't Bonus Dash and then Action Dash to move triple or quadruple your speed. Dash doubles your speed for that turn, and that's it.

I've never seen the Chase rule before and I'm gonna remember it.

If the rogue isn't chasing, though, they're setting their own pace. I wouldn't force constitution checks, but they're gonna be out of breath from sprinting across town, realistically. I guess, how does that look mechanically, then? Consti...tution...check... oh, dang.

[Hytheter]

If you do the maths, you'll realise dashing isn't even really that fast; it's more of a jog than a sprint. I can't jog for very long, personally, but I suspect healthy adventurers to have more stamina than I. An hour seems like a nice round starting point if you want to bother enforcing a limit at all.

If you want a genuine run you'll need to go outside the rules. Third edition has a run action - it quadruples your move speed but allows you to move only in a straight line, among other caveats. The rules are pretty in-depth (the 3E way) so here's the full text:


You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

A run represents a speed of about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human.

[Telok]

Back when I walked/biked to work, if I was running late & weather didn't allow for riding, I could halve the time it took to cover 4 miles by alternating jogging & fast walking. I'd arrive a breathing a bit heavily but quite able to jump straight into heavy lifting jobs. It was a rate I could keep up for a long time if needed. For fast distance travel let anyone "dash" all the time as it works out to about the same as mixed jogging & walking speed. If they want to actually run or try a marathon you're on your own as there are no rules for that.

[heavyfuel]

The Chase rules make absolutely no sense. I'll just quote WaroftheCrans here (careful though, the original thread has long been dead):


The chase rules are an abomination. Let's take the instance of my brother. He runs a 4:06 mile in college. I'm inclined to say that a race is a chase. In order for him to achieve anywhere close to his usual times, he needs two levels of rogue and the mobile feat. Considering he's never run more than 7 miles straight, I'll give him a 12 in con.

Starting pistol goes off: he immediately dashes, going 140 in 12 seconds. At 18 seconds, he likely has a level of exhaustion. 24 seconds, it becomes 2. He's now running at half the normal speed, (odd considering he ran a 4:30 on a broken foot) and odds are he'll have 4 levels by the end of 30 seconds. 2/3rds of the way through the next round, he seems to slow to a standstill, but having never stopped in a race before, he attempts to go on. At the 36 second mark, his body gives out on him and he collapses, his heart stopped. He's considered medically dead at this point, but thankfully CPR managed to revive him. He's laid up in bed for 6 days before he recovers fully.

Later, if he tries to run his workout race of 5 minutes, the exact same thing happens. The doctor decides that he shouldn't ever run again in a situation that could be stated to be a chase.

The chase rules are idiotic, and make me wonder if anyone on the design team ever ran more than 100 feet.

Allow for something sensible. You don't even need a hard rule for this, just eyeball a decent amount of time taking into consideration stuff like the PC's Con score and base movement speed. Cunning Action isn't a factor here since you're still technically limited in the amount of times you can Dash.

[strangebloke]

As long as you want, basically. Typically adventurers are pretty athletic and strong, even if nominally they have lower CON. If a PC has a limp or a something, that would be reflected elsewhere on their stat sheet, usually by reducing their land speed.

Realistically there does come a point where you move into overland travel rules, though. Personally I'd say a DC 10+[minutes they've been dashing/10] CON save to maintain jogging pace every 10 minutes or so would do the trick. They are heavily equipped in gear and characters who have endurance should be able to make several of these in quick succession, but it also makes it sort of impractical to game the system as a way of boosting your overland travel speed.

[Sorinth]

Out of combat/chase scenes you don't really use Dash you use the Travel Pace rules. So running across the city is a Fast pace so they move 400ft a minute and have a -5 to passive wisdom.

[heavyfuel]

Out of combat/chase scenes you don't really use Dash you use the Travel Pace rules. So running across the city is a Fast pace so they move 400ft a minute and have a -5 to passive wisdom.

I'm pretty sure most adventurers can run faster than 4 miles an hour.

I'd also be cautious about calling "running across a city" a form of travel.

[Sorinth]

I'm pretty sure most adventurers can run faster than 4 miles an hour.

I'd also be cautious about calling "running across a city" a form of travel.

I'm pretty sure most adventurers also carry gear, are wearing armour, etc... so comparing to track and field running is non-sensical to begin with.

[Unoriginal]

One of my players wants to get from one side of Town to the other, fast. He asks me how long that would take.
I reply; Depends on how much you Dash.
Reponse; ...How much am I allowed to?

Q. How many times - in a row - can you Dash? How does sprinting work?

The closest rule I could find was regarding the Chase rules in the DMG;

[3+Con] times. Each Dash after that has a DC 10 Con check* for Exhaustion. Exhaustion(L1) gives Disadvantage on ability checks.
*It appears that if you fail the check you still take the Dash, though.

Does this seem like the right rule to use? Is there another rule I can't find?

Also as written the rule doesn't take into account Dashing as a Bonus Action (e.g; Rogue), so maybe that's cool? You know who's really good at Sprinting? Rogues. 'Cause they don't take the Dash Action. Then again, how long can a Rogue sprint for? Infinity? That doesn't seem right.

Unless it's a very small town, going from one side of the town to the other would use travel speeds, not the combat/chase/turn-by-turn speeds.


Travel Pace
While traveling, a group of Adventurers can move at a normal, fast, or slow pace, as shown on the Travel Pace table. The table states how far the party can move in a period of time and whether the pace has any Effect. A fast pace makes Characters less perceptive, while a slow pace makes it possible to sneak around and to Search an area more carefully.


The Fast travel space is 400ft/minute.


I'm pretty sure most adventurers can run faster than 4 miles an hour.

Well the books say otherwise, for sustained movement (aka you can go faster than 4 miles/hour, but only for a burst of speed, not for an hour). Don't have to follow the books on this or anything else, but there ain't other guidance on the question.



I'd also be cautious about calling "running across a city" a form of travel.

Why? Traveling pace is used even in dungeons.

[Keltest]

I'm pretty sure most adventurers also carry gear, are wearing armour, etc... so comparing to track and field running is non-sensical to begin with.

Seconding this. Strap on 50 lbs of metal and a backpack full of camping supplies, and lets see somebody match track running times without hurting themselves.

[heavyfuel]

I'm pretty sure most adventurers also carry gear, are wearing armour, etc... so comparing to track and field running is non-sensical to begin with.

So all of this stuff (gear, armor, etc) is extremely impactful when it comes to running, but not when it comes to everything else? Gear gives absolutely no penalty to climbing, balancing on a tightrope, hiding, or doing somersaults. Why should it give a massive penalty to running?


Well the books say otherwise

That's my point. The book is dumb. Dumb RAW is still dumb.

[Keltest]

So all of this stuff (gear, armor, etc) is extremely impactful when it comes to running, but not when it comes to everything else? Gear gives absolutely no penalty to climbing, balancing on a tightrope, hiding, or doing somersaults. Why should it give a massive penalty to running?

I mean personally I haven't seen even an amateur acrobat weigh in on this either way, for example, so I would maybe be careful with making that claim.

[Wintermoot]

For some reason, this just makes me thing of the end of Mission Impossible III where Ethan Hunt sprints at full tilt through a chinese city. Check that out if you've never seen it.

[heavyfuel]

I mean personally I haven't seen even an amateur acrobat weigh in on this either way, for example, so I would maybe be careful with making that claim.

So you think "50 lbs of metal and a backpack full of camping supplies" wouldn't at all impede an acrobat in real life? :smallconfused:

Are you okay with an amateur climber? Cuz I am one. 50 lbs of anything would make any climb borderline impossible. We usually climb with no more than 2 or 3 pounds of gear, and that's if we really can't avoid climbing with less.

It's really odd that people are picking on running as the only physical activity where gear weight/bulk is a factor.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Can you believe it? So far no one has mentioned proficiency in athletics.

I'd add proficiency bonus to whatever CON save you come up with or straight up advantage it. Someone who works out regularly would have a huge advantage over someone who does not.

But here I go chasing the simulation again.

[Keltest]

So you think "50 lbs of metal and a backpack full of camping supplies" wouldn't at all impede an acrobat in real life? :smallconfused:

Are you okay with an amateur climber? Cuz I am one. 50 lbs of anything would make any climb borderline impossible. We usually climb with no more than 2 or 3 pounds of gear, and that's if we really can't avoid climbing with less.

It's really odd that people are picking on running as the only physical activity where gear weight/bulk is a factor.

Im sure it would. What im not sure of is whether the baseline rules carry it in as an assumption like the chase rules do.

[Sorinth]

So all of this stuff (gear, armor, etc) is extremely impactful when it comes to running, but not when it comes to everything else? Gear gives absolutely no penalty to climbing, balancing on a tightrope, hiding, or doing somersaults. Why should it give a massive penalty to running?



That's my point. The book is dumb. Dumb RAW is still dumb.

Well first off there's no penalty, your travel pace doesn't get modified by all sorts of things because it's an abstraction that covers a multitude of factors/situations. It's not dumb, it's to keep things running quickly and smoothly. Having 1 number (Or really in this case a choice between 3 numbers) provides better gameplay then a table with a hundred of factors that will impact your speed. Like do you really think there should be a table that modifies your speed based on incline, how about all the different surfaces, running on sand vs stone floor will also impact speed in real life, do we need to model that as well?

If you want to race someone then you can use opposed skill checks, if you want to travel from point A to point B you use the travel rules, if you want to position in combat you use the movement rules for combat. If you want to do something in a grey area ask the DM.

[OvisCaedo]

Real life athletes also probably can't beat a building-sized monster covered in scales as hard as steel to death with a sword in under 30 seconds with a few friends. Or survive it if, say, the building-sized monster hits them back.

People are just very slow in 5e. It's probably fine as a form of combat balancing versus the ranges established, but it's a bit silly if that's the actual max speed of a bunch of superhuman paragons. It's also very silly to try to justify it with "well they're weighed down by the gear" when the rules never actually claim this to be the case, so they're still exactly as slow even WITHOUT being encumbered at all.

The travel paces are also probably fine for actual travel since a group could be maintaining them for, what, 8 hours or more? And used in scenarios where people are definitely not running.

EDIT: Oh, wait, I forgot, the game actually DOES have rules for being slowed down by carrying things. The encumbrance optional rules which suggest that 30/60 feet is in fact the unencumbered baseline for movement.

[tKUUNK]

Personally, I prefer this to be a DM call...based on whatever factors-

Is the character armored? How much weight are they carrying? Is this a ranger, rogue, or monk...or some other character reasonably able to move swiftly? (rule of cool)

Are they well-rested, or did they just finish a fight? Side note- combat is one of the most strenuous, exhausting activities imaginable. Maybe we should also be asking "How long can a character fight?" And no, I don't honestly want to have that discussion.

Point being, whenever the DM thinks you should feel fatigued or winded for ANY reason, let the CON saves begin!

[strangebloke]

EDIT: Oh, wait, I forgot, the game actually DOES have rules for being slowed down by carrying things. The encumbrance optional rules which suggest that 30/60 feet is in fact the unencumbered baseline for movement.

I think the idea less is that the gear slows them down, and more that the gear makes them tired. Which granted your point about them not necessarily carrying that much gear applies, but this is just a large problem of 5e not representing stamina well in general.

[Damon_Tor]

Also as written the rule doesn't take into account Dashing as a Bonus Action (e.g; Rogue), so maybe that's cool? You know who's really good at Sprinting? Rogues. 'Cause they don't take the Dash Action. Then again, how long can a Rogue sprint for? Infinity? That doesn't seem right.

A bonus action is an action. Anything which triggers on "taking the dash action" would trigger on using your bonus action as well.

[Mellack]

Yeah, dashing shouldn't really be that tiring for adventurers as it isn't very fast. To give a few numbers of comparison, the average finish time for a marathon is 4 hours 21 minutes. That is average finish, not win time, so what most of the runners are doing. That is a pace of 6.05 mph. A character with a move of 30' who dashes every round is running at 6.8 mph. So that is a pace a healthy person should probably be able to keep up for a couple of hours.

[Sorinth]

Yeah, dashing shouldn't really be that tiring for adventurers as it isn't very fast. To give a few numbers of comparison, the average finish time for a marathon is 4 hours 21 minutes. That is average finish, not win time, so what most of the runners are doing. That is a pace of 6.05 mph. A character with a move of 30' who dashes every round is running at 6.8 mph. So that is a pace a healthy person should probably be able to keep up for a couple of hours.

What's the average speed for finishing a marathon while wearing armour, and carrying a 50lbs backpack?

Also I would wager those marathon runners probably have a couple levels of exhaustion by the time they finish. I also doubt the marathon runner can run a marathon every single day for months and be perfectly fine and healthy. The game rules are there to help the game flow smoothly not simulate the real world.

Frankly if a PC is running a marathon they shouldn't be using the standard movement rules. It should be handled as a skill check/challenge.

[JNAProductions]

What's the average speed for finishing a marathon while wearing armour, and carrying a 50lbs backpack?

Also I would wager those marathon runners probably have a couple levels of exhaustion by the time they finish. I also doubt the marathon runner can run a marathon every single day for months and be perfectly fine and healthy. The game rules are there to help the game flow smoothly not simulate the real world.

Frankly if a PC is running a marathon they shouldn't be using the standard movement rules. It should be handled as a skill check/challenge.

Adventurers are also physically beyond what real people are capable of. Realism is a good starting point-not the end.

[Sorinth]

Adventurers are also physically beyond what real people are capable of. Realism is a good starting point-not the end.

If something realistic is the starting point then you first have to answer what is the realistic time to run a marathon carrying armour and gear?

From a quick google search seems like a Roman Legionaire would march a little under 3mph. Which just so happens to match the standard travel pace, and PCs have the option to go faster without becoming more tired showing that they are physically beyond what real people are capable of.

[Mellack]

What's the average speed for finishing a marathon while wearing armour, and carrying a 50lbs backpack?

Also I would wager those marathon runners probably have a couple levels of exhaustion by the time they finish. I also doubt the marathon runner can run a marathon every single day for months and be perfectly fine and healthy. The game rules are there to help the game flow smoothly not simulate the real world.

Frankly if a PC is running a marathon they shouldn't be using the standard movement rules. It should be handled as a skill check/challenge.

Where does the game say people move faster with 0 gear than 50 pounds of gear? Since it doesn't say that, the game assumes that it doesn't change speed or exhaustion by any appreciable amount.

I highly doubt they have a couple of levels of exhaustion. Level 2 would mean speed is halved. Are you saying they are still running game dash speeds at half movement? Also, many people have run multiple marathons or ultramarathons. Dozens have done the world marathon challenge, which is 7 marathons in 7 days on 7 continents. If each marathon gave a couple levels of exhaustion, no-one could survive that challenge.

[Sorinth]

Where does the game say people move faster with 0 gear than 50 pounds of gear? Since it doesn't say that, the game assumes that it doesn't change speed or exhaustion by any appreciable amount.

The game rules already clearly cover how much you can move, it's 4 mph at a fast pace. You can only take the Dash Action in Combat, that's why it's in the section titles Actions In Combat and not the Movement section of Adventuring.

So if talking purely game rules you can't do what you proposed and just dash for hours. If you want to homebrew something so that it's more realistic then why shouldn't carrying gear be a factor?


I highly doubt they have a couple of levels of exhaustion. Level 2 would mean speed is halved. Are you saying they are still running game dash speeds at half movement? Also, many people have run multiple marathons or ultramarathons. Dozens have done the world marathon challenge, which is 7 marathons in 7 days on 7 continents. If each marathon gave a couple levels of exhaustion, no-one could survive that challenge.

Would you feel better if I said there's an ability check and failure gives that level of exhaustion? People can do those crazy marathons, but plenty also have to stop part way for a variety of issues, that is easily represented by them failing a check and taking the exhaustion levels.

[Tawmis]

The Chase rules make absolutely no sense. I'll just quote WaroftheCrans here (careful though, the original thread has long been dead):


Is said brother, running around the track - also running with weapons, a backpack full of equipment, 50ft rope, leather armor?

Or are they just running around the track in loose shorts? :)

The game, tries to accommodate a general "guideline" for how something could be ruled/done. Nothing is ever set in stone.

Except, well, stone.

[Sorinth]

Is said brother, running around the track - also running with weapons, a backpack full of equipment, 50ft rope, leather armor?

Or are they just running around the track in loose shorts? :)

The game, tries to accommodate a general "guideline" for how something could be ruled/done. Nothing is ever set in stone.

Except, well, stone.

Exactly. And if there was a situation where the players were in a track and field competition it wouldn't be covered using movement speed and dash actions because that would be pointless. It would be covered by skill check(s)/challenges.

[Psyren]

"Make a Constitution (Athletics) check."

[heavyfuel]

What's the average speed for finishing a marathon while wearing armour, and carrying a 50lbs backpack?

Is said brother, running around the track - also running with weapons, a backpack full of equipment, 50ft rope, leather armor?

I've mentioned it in post #16. This amount of gear would absolutely cripple any real life climber's ability to climb, and yet, adventurers seem perfectly able to climb with it.

In fact, adventurer's climbing at half their move speed would make any adventurer an extremely fast climber. Not as fast as speed climbers, who practice on a specific wall multiple times per day, but faster than any climber who hasn't had the chance to practice a particular climbing route many times before.

And they climb super fast while wearing plate and carrying gear.

Saying that gear interferes with running when it doesn't interfere with any other physical activity is just an absurd proposition.

[Tawmis]

I've mentioned it in post #16. This amount of gear would absolutely cripple any real life climber's ability to climb, and yet, adventurers seem perfectly able to climb with it.
In fact, adventurer's climbing at half their move speed would make any adventurer an extremely fast climber. Not as fast as speed climbers, who practice on a specific wall multiple times per day, but faster than any climber who hasn't had the chance to practice a particular climbing route many times before.
And they climb super fast while wearing plate and carrying gear.
Saying that gear interferes with running when it doesn't interfere with any other physical activity is just an absurd proposition.

But gear does have some impact to movement. Plenty of heavy gear causes Disadvantage on Stealth, for example.
The idea is (to me, anyway) - if you're an adventurer, you're experienced with carrying what you carry.
Similar to how Navy Seals, do that whole training of - going to drop you off way out here in the ocean, with a metric ton of gear, sink or swim son, it's your choice.
The constant training of doing such feats makes it easier (if such a thing exists), where as your average joe, whose never done that kind of training, but may still be physically fit - will sink like a rock.

[Sorinth]

I've mentioned it in post #16. This amount of gear would absolutely cripple any real life climber's ability to climb, and yet, adventurers seem perfectly able to climb with it.

In fact, adventurer's climbing at half their move speed would make any adventurer an extremely fast climber. Not as fast as speed climbers, who practice on a specific wall multiple times per day, but faster than any climber who hasn't had the chance to practice a particular climbing route many times before.

And they climb super fast while wearing plate and carrying gear.

Saying that gear interferes with running when it doesn't interfere with any other physical activity is just an absurd proposition.

Isn't this just more proof that you shouldn't compare what a PC can under generic rules that cover a ton of very different situations for ease of gameplay with what can be done in the real world?

[strangebloke]

Honestly by far the biggest consideration imo is how this is going to play out on the table. Sure, the rogue might be able to justify being 50% faster than the fighter in a chase, but you're not narrating out a 5 mile chase scene yeah? Your guy is going to catch the other guy and the chase is going to end before then. Or the guy is going to get away, and the chase ends then too.

In other words, the limitation here is not in the realistic marathon power of your PCs, but in the attention span of your players.

If you're getting chased overland, you want to use overland rules, maybe giving a bonus if all the party are 'fast' characters with 40'+ walking speed, and/or bonus action dash. But for any longer travel arc, things like getting water and eating and fighting through terrain are going to use up time as well.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm pretty sure most adventurers also carry gear, are wearing armour, etc... so comparing to track and field running is non-sensical to begin with.

And aren't traveling on well-paved, clear paths wearing modern running shoes.

Try doing a sprint over cobblestones (no, not the well-fitted ones of today, the pitted, rutted ones where most of the cobbles are worn away) or rutted pitted dirt roads or with random people moving into your path. While dodging random arrows. That's what dashing emulates. Moving in combat conditions for short bursts while geared up and dealing with trouble. Not recreational running.

[Telok]

The game rules already clearly cover how much you can move, it's 4 mph at a fast pace.

Then adventurers are pathetic general athletes. 20 years ago I was doing in the 6-7 mph range for 30-45 minutes wearing a winter coat, steel toe boots, waiting at crosswalks for lights, and doing it through calf high snow. And I was absolutely not a very fit person then, that and some 20-40 lb. lifting were my only exercise. No exhaustion, no problems, just alternating a quick walk and jogging to get to work on time.

I'm sure heavy armor and a 50 lb. pack would have slowed me, but I'm also pretty sure a rogue character wanting to run deliver a message wouldn't be hauling that either. If anything they's be less encumbered and in better condition than I was. Are these action hero characters or boffer larp couch potato characters if the best speed they can muster without falling over after two minutes is a fast walk?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Then adventurers are pathetic general athletes. 20 years ago I was doing in the 6-7 mph range for 30-45 minutes wearing a winter coat, steel toe boots, waiting at crosswalks for lights, and doing it through calf high snow. And I was absolutely not a very fit person then, that and some 20-40 lb. lifting were my only exercise. No exhaustion, no problems, just alternating a quick walk and jogging to get to work on time.

I'm sure heavy armor and a 50 lb. pack would have slowed me, but I'm also pretty sure a rogue character wanting to run deliver a message wouldn't be hauling that either. If anything they's be less encumbered and in better condition than I was. Are these action hero characters or boffer larp couch potato characters if the best speed they can muster without falling over after two minutes is a fast walk?

Can you do that wearing a pack, over rough-ish terrain, for 8 hours each and every day? Because that's what the travel pace is calibrated around. Not streets or even roads, game trails through the wilderness. While carrying all your gear.

[Sorinth]

Then adventurers are pathetic general athletes. 20 years ago I was doing in the 6-7 mph range for 30-45 minutes wearing a winter coat, steel toe boots, waiting at crosswalks for lights, and doing it through calf high snow. And I was absolutely not a very fit person then, that and some 20-40 lb. lifting were my only exercise. No exhaustion, no problems, just alternating a quick walk and jogging to get to work on time.

I'm sure heavy armor and a 50 lb. pack would have slowed me, but I'm also pretty sure a rogue character wanting to run deliver a message wouldn't be hauling that either. If anything they's be less encumbered and in better condition than I was. Are these action hero characters or boffer larp couch potato characters if the best speed they can muster without falling over after two minutes is a fast walk?

Well the PC adventurer can do it for 8hrs without taking a break with 3 arrows sticking out of their chest. Does that mean you are a pathetic athlete in comparison or does it mean the game rules are just generalizations meant to cover a variety of situations and not meant to simulate specific real world cases?

[Doug Lampert]

Well the PC adventurer can do it for 8hrs without taking a break with 3 arrows sticking out of their chest. Does that mean you are a pathetic athlete in comparison or does it mean the game rules are just generalizations meant to cover a variety of situations and not meant to simulate specific real world cases?

So, adventurers can recover overnight from 3 arrows sticking out of their chest? Because ANY wound represented just by HP damage goes away overnight.

It's worse than that of course, almost any damage you can walk with can be completely recovered much of the time by a one hour short rest. Gosh these guys are tough if three arrows to the chest just means they pull them out and they're fine within an hour.

Similarly, not every adventurer has armor, or 50 pounds of crap, the heavy winter wear mentioned is in fact about as encumbering as what plenty of adventurers carry and walking through snow is WORSE than walking over mildly rough terrain.

The guys claiming that this rule is reasonable can stop now and go back and edit in the blue text, your arguments have convinced me that the other side is correct, which is the only purpose I can see in blanket claiming that all parties are slowed by encumbrance to the extent that they can't manage to walk quickly and that the travelling pace is intended to represent walking with wounds of a severity that the system simply doesn't model short of death saving throws being rolled.

Especially when the game has an explicit alternate rule for encumbrance to slow people and we are presumably talking about parties that may well be below that limit.

[edited to add] You can defend the rule as a reasonable abstraction of movement when you are not forced marching to the extent that it might fatigue you. But don't try to claim that it's a reasonable maximum pace as anything but a high level abstraction. Roman legionnaires were mentioned, those guys were often drafted in the republic (so just average farmer types) and in the empire served 20+ year terms, with the guys setting the pace being the long service guys who stayed in past age 40 and were carrying all the crap an adventurer carries plus entrenching and fortification gear since they fortified camp every night. The chase rules are insane, and the distance travel rules are far off on an hour by hour basis if you're actually in a hurry.

[Kane0]

Quick ruling without looking anything up; Con mod minutes.

[Sorinth]

So, adventurers can recover overnight from 3 arrows sticking out of their chest? Because ANY wound represented just by HP damage goes away overnight.

It's worse than that of course, almost any damage you can walk with can be completely recovered much of the time by a one hour short rest. Gosh these guys are tough if three arrows to the chest just means they pull them out and they're fine within an hour.

Similarly, not every adventurer has armor, or 50 pounds of crap, the heavy winter wear mentioned is in fact about as encumbering as what plenty of adventurers carry and walking through snow is WORSE than walking over mildly rough terrain.

The guys claiming that this rule is reasonable can stop now and go back and edit in the blue text, your arguments have convinced me that the other side is correct, which is the only purpose I can see in blanket claiming that all parties are slowed by encumbrance to the extent that they can't manage to walk quickly and that the travelling pace is intended to represent walking with wounds of a severity that the system simply doesn't model short of death saving throws being rolled.

Especially when the game has an explicit alternate rule for encumbrance to slow people and we are presumably talking about parties that may well be below that limit.

[edited to add] You can defend the rule as a reasonable abstraction of movement when you are not forced marching to the extent that it might fatigue you. But don't try to claim that it's a reasonable maximum pace as anything but a high level abstraction. Roman legionnaires were mentioned, those guys were often drafted in the republic (so just average farmer types) and in the empire served 20+ year terms, with the guys setting the pace being the long service guys who stayed in past age 40 and were carrying all the crap an adventurer carries plus entrenching and fortification gear since they fortified camp every night. The chase rules are insane, and the distance travel rules are far off on an hour by hour basis if you're actually in a hurry.

Which rule are you talking about?

There is no rule for running, in combat you can Dash, outside of combat you can move at a fast pace. Are you saying those aren't reasonable abstractions? And if so what's your alternative? I have to assume some sort of Very Fast travel pace, if so what are the consequences besides disadvantage on perception checks?

[Foolwise]

Now to add my anecdote as a middle-aged backpacker who carries a few extra pounds along with a 30-40 lb pack. With or without my pack, I average around 2mi per hour on my hikes. Elevation can cut it down to an hour per mile. Slow and steady to protect my knees (and take copious amount of pictures). 20mi in a day seems to be my limit, 15 mi if I am hiking multiple days in a row.

Younger hikers, in better shape, easily double my speed, so I feel the 4mi per hour benchmark is pretty spot on for adventurers and their gear. Even when you factor most can carry 150 lb plus before being encumbered. They are exceptional heroes after all.

Another point to factor are the actual size of D&D cities, towns, and hamlets. You shouldn't find a sprawling metropolis that we see in today's world. A quick search tells me Rome at its height in antiquity had a million residents and was 12 mi wide (3000 acres). No other city would grow as large until the Industrial Revolution. Saxon London in 1200, by contrast, was about a fifth of Rome's size (650 acres). So if Medieval Europe is your reference point, the largest cities in the realm should be no more than a couple miles wide. And that's only for the rare big city, the vast majority of towns and hamlets won't even occupy a mile of space in the city proper. Most adventurers should be able to make a beeline from one end of town to the other in minutes, gear and all. Other obstacles could be placed to hamper their speed; busy congested marketplace, poor weather turning streets into muddy difficult terrain, getting challenged by patrolling city watchman, etc.

[strangebloke]

Quick ruling without looking anything up; Con mod minutes.

if it works it works!

[No brains]

Travelling at a fast pace is only going about one third faster than normal, so it doesn't quite model dashing or Rogue double dashing. That said, it still gives us a point of reference that you can dash enough to get and extra 100 feet a minute (less than once every three rounds) for 8 hours a day.

You can try dividing from there? Once every two rounds for 6 hours? Every round for 3 hours? Twice a round for less than an hour?

Also for those wanting to map to 3.5's movement rules, beware for that way lies madness. Under those rules, you can technically dash/ double move indefinitely so long as you move one square less than your full speed. I figured that one out once when thinking about how long a warlock could 'hustle' by detecting for magic every round while walking.

[Cheesegear]

"Make a Constitution (Athletics) check."

I like this, since it combines Strength and Constitution. But when do you make this roll?

The longest sprint I did in high school was 400m (approx. quarter-mile). That took nearly everything out of me. I see several people making 'Guy at the Gym' Fallacies and what's worse, they're not even making the right argument (e.g; Jogging, Walking, etc.).

I also ran 800m (~half mile) and 1500m (just under a mile), and I can tell you that I didn't go as fast as I could the entire time. 800m and 1500m were kind of...Half-sprints; You sprinted for a bit, jogged for the middle, then sprinted again - at least that's the way I was trained to run track.

I've also seen the marathon dropped for 'look how long humans can run'; As someone who has done three marathons in my life...They're not sprints. I'll tell you that for a fact. I know it's anecdotal evidence. But marathons are not sprints. :smallmad:
(I also jog 5km once every two weeks...But I'm never doing another marathon.)

I'll ask my question again, maybe better this time:

Part A. If a creature were to Move as fast as it could (i.e; Sprinting) in a single round:
i) What does that look like? Dash? Dash*2? Dash*3?
ii) How does this change given that adventurers are likely weighed down with any amount of gear?

(There's a scene in the movie Widows, where the women are literally resistance training for the heist; 'You have to run from Point A to Point B under [time], whilst carrying this amount of cash. You have to train for this.' It doesn't look easy... Like I said, I ran track in high school. But I never competed nor trained under resistance. I'm sure there is resistance training for sprinters [in 202x]...I just never did it...Or my coach was bad.)

Part B. If a creature were to Move as fast as it could as determined by Part A, how many rounds could it sustain this movement?

You'll get marks for including references to a creature's move speed, its Strength and/or Athletics bonus, and its Constitution.

[Unoriginal]

Adventurers are also physically beyond what real people are capable of. Realism is a good starting point-not the end.

Realism isn't even a starting point for that kind of considerations, and when people try to use it as one it's an extremely poor one.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Realism isn't even a starting point for that kind of considerations, and when people try to use it as one it's an extremely poor one.

Quite right! You could repost this bit of advice in any thread involving martials vs magic I've ever seen.

[heavyfuel]

But gear does have some impact to movement. Plenty of heavy gear causes Disadvantage on Stealth, for example.

Some armors do, and only in Stealth. Other gear never does (unless you are over encumbrance). Other physical feats (not the game term "Feats") are never affected by armor or gear.


Isn't this just more proof that you shouldn't compare what a PC can under generic rules that cover a ton of very different situations for ease of gameplay with what can be done in the real world?

"Ease of gameplay" is fine, but it must have limits. If a player wants to do something that is perfectly plausible, you shouldn't disallow it because some nonsensical rule says so in the name of "RAW says so" combined with "ease of gameplay".

(House)Ruling something on the spot - like Kane0's or Psyren's suggestions - is a perfect example of something that also allows for "ease of gameplay"

[Psyren]

Some armors do, and only in Stealth. Other gear never does (unless you are over encumbrance). Other physical feats (not the game term "Feats") are never affected by armor or gear.

Well, proficiency has an effect too (lacking it imposes disadvantage on more things than Stealth, even if you're below encumbrance.) Otherwise agreed.

Personally I see proficiency as implying that the character trained in the armor in addition to being knowing how to put it on for this reason. So fighters practiced moving, perhaps even running in medium and heavy armors, thus they are not getting disadvantage on athletics.


Realism isn't even a starting point for that kind of considerations, and when people try to use it as one it's an extremely poor one.


Quite right! You could repost this bit of advice in any thread involving martials vs magic I've ever seen.

I mean, you do have to start somewhere. Can a character circle the globe with a single jump, or swim across/to the bottom of the ocean and back again unaided? If not, there's a limit of some kind, and part of the DM's job is defining where that is.



"Ease of gameplay" is fine, but it must have limits. If a player wants to do something that is perfectly plausible, you shouldn't disallow it because some nonsensical rule says so in the name of "RAW says so" combined with "ease of gameplay".

Agreed here as well, and I'll add that what is plausible for martial D&D heroes should go beyond what is plausible for a random athlete from our world. How far beyond? Expect table variation.

[Unoriginal]

I mean, you do have to start somewhere.

Yes, but that start is not reality nor realism.



If not, there's a limit of some kind, and part of the DM's job is defining where that is.

Indeed, there is a limit, but that limit is again neither reality nor realism.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yes, but that start is not reality nor realism.


Agreed. In part because "reality" and "realism" really mean the partial, limited, only-sorta-on-point analogies to things that occurred in quite different circumstances. AKA they're just as much whim and fiat as anything else, just less honest about it.

A few possible better starting points
* Campaign aesthetics. A dark-and-grim campaign and a high-flying-heroes game need different limits.
* Setting aesthetics and metaphysics. The possible feats in a world focused around street-level people and one in a world where you can literally become gods by punching things hard enough are quite different. A world where all PCs are drawing on the background magic (whether by spells or not) is different from one where only explicit "magic" (in the "can be cancelled by antimagic fields" sense) can do anything fantastic.
* Table preferences.
* Intra-party balance (this speaks more to consistency than anything else)

[Psyren]

Yes, but that start is not reality nor realism.



Indeed, there is a limit, but that limit is again neither reality nor realism.

My point is that starting from "unreality" doesn't mean literally anything goes either.

[Mellack]

I'll ask my question again, maybe better this time:

Part A. If a creature were to Move as fast as it could (i.e; Sprinting) in a single round:
i) What does that look like? Dash? Dash*2? Dash*3?
ii) How does this change given that adventurers are likely weighed down with any amount of gear?





All this is at risk of being dismisses as "the guy in the gym", but since you want a baseline to work off of, I will give you some real-world human stats.

The easiest way I can think of to find sprinting speed in "armor" is to look at American football players. They regularly run covered in armor in the form of their pads. Top players, in actual plays, are going 21-22 mph. That is over 30 feet per second or 180 ' per round. So by that metric, sprinting speed should be around Dash*5.

[PhoenixPhyre]

All this is at risk of being dismisses as "the guy in the gym", but since you want a baseline to work off of, I will give you some real-world human stats.

The easiest way I can think of to find sprinting speed in "armor" is to look at American football players. They regularly run covered in armor in the form of their pads. Top players, in actual plays, are going 21-22 mph. That is over 30 feet per second or 180 ' per round. So by that metric, sprinting speed should be around Dash*5.

Armor that doesn't actually weight that much or restrict movement. And with cleats on perfectly smooth grass (or turf designed for traction), mostly in straight lines for extremely short periods (a few seconds in the norm). With heavy norms about how you can intersect with or interfere with other people.

As I said about loose, cherry-picked, not-really-on-point analogies being the source of "realism"....

[strangebloke]

My point is that starting from "unreality" doesn't mean literally anything goes either.

Pretty straightforwardly, you have to determine what aspects your game is going to simulate, and how much they matter. DND simulates high fantasy magical combat, first and foremost, with the "social pillar" being mostly relegated to freeform roleplay with the occasional ability check or class feature thrown in for flavor. Exploration is more supported, but as the weekly arguments over how to arbitrate stealth and starting encounter distance show, its not really that clear.

What we're discussing here is "how much stamina do PCs have" and that's not really something that comes up or is addressed anywhere in the game, barring things like the exhaustion or chase rules (which are bad). We know how fast overland movement is (walking speed) and we know how fast you can move in combat (light jog) but stuff like a footrace or marathon simply lies outside the realm of what DND really supports simulation for. PCs are superhuman, but neither the overland travel nor incombat movement captures the pace of a normal footrace, let alone a superhuman footrace.

So uhhhhhh basically just do whatever you like? I think CON mod minutes is fine, but if you wanted to combine that with a system that let people 'accelerate' and go even faster if they dash on multiple consecutive turns, I wouldn't be opposed.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Another issue with comparing to modern-day athletes is gear.

And I don't mean armor here--modern athletic gear is amazing. Look at the evolution of records over the years. Training and diet can account for some of it, but people haven't really gotten that much stronger (on base) than 50 years ago. Yet runners and swimmers are still breaking records. If you compare a 70's set of running gear (heavy-by-modern-standards shoes with poor support, shorts and shirts that don't breathe well, etc) to a modern set, not even a top-of-the-line one, that accounts for a significant difference. And I've been told that swimming gear is even more important at the high end.

Now translate that back to running in leather shoes with very little conformance to the feet, bad ankle support, plus gear made of leather and wool and linen, designed for being hard-wearing and resistant to damage. That mostly covers your whole body (and thus binds your movement to some degree).

Reality as a baseline is just as biased or more (and less of a good simulation) than anything else.

[Psyren]

Pretty straightforwardly, you have to determine what aspects your game is going to simulate, and how much they matter. DND simulates high fantasy magical combat, first and foremost, with the "social pillar" being mostly relegated to freeform roleplay with the occasional ability check or class feature thrown in for flavor. Exploration is more supported, but as the weekly arguments over how to arbitrate stealth and starting encounter distance show, its not really that clear.

What we're discussing here is "how much stamina do PCs have" and that's not really something that comes up or is addressed anywhere in the game, barring things like the exhaustion or chase rules (which are bad). We know how fast overland movement is (walking speed) and we know how fast you can move in combat (light jog) but stuff like a footrace or marathon simply lies outside the realm of what DND really supports simulation for. PCs are superhuman, but neither the overland travel nor incombat movement captures the pace of a normal footrace, let alone a superhuman footrace.

So uhhhhhh basically just do whatever you like? I think CON mod minutes is fine, but if you wanted to combine that with a system that let people 'accelerate' and go even faster if they dash on multiple consecutive turns, I wouldn't be opposed.

I'd certainly be on board with a "sprint faster than fast pace" or "maintain such a sprint" being doable via a check of some kind.

In general, the process should start with the player stating plainly what they want to do. "I want to catch up to that guy before he escapes" or "I want to get across town before X happens" for example. Then the DM decides how to resolve that, which may or may not involve the Chase rules.

The cool part of this approach is that the method the player uses is mutable/abstracted - so for an athletic character it can involve darting through the streets and plowing through crowds, while for an acrobatic character it could involve tumbling across rooftops and swinging from clotheslines, and a persuasive/coercive character can hitch a ride in a noble's speedy stagecoach. Different flavors but the result is the same, they all move faster than their walking speed. Then you season to taste with Success At A Cost or Degrees of Failure.


Another issue with comparing to modern-day athletes is gear.

And I don't mean armor here--modern athletic gear is amazing. Look at the evolution of records over the years. Training and diet can account for some of it, but people haven't really gotten that much stronger (on base) than 50 years ago. Yet runners and swimmers are still breaking records. If you compare a 70's set of running gear (heavy-by-modern-standards shoes with poor support, shorts and shirts that don't breathe well, etc) to a modern set, not even a top-of-the-line one, that accounts for a significant difference. And I've been told that swimming gear is even more important at the high end.

Now translate that back to running in leather shoes with very little conformance to the feet, bad ankle support, plus gear made of leather and wool and linen, designed for being hard-wearing and resistant to damage. That mostly covers your whole body (and thus binds your movement to some degree).

Reality as a baseline is just as biased or more (and less of a good simulation) than anything else.

I don't disagree, but at the same time you could also argue that magical gear, or even special materials like mithral or dragonscales could be superior to any athleisure wear from our world, however modern. Past the lowest tiers it could go either way really.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't disagree, but at the same time you could also argue that magical gear, or even special materials like mithral or dragonscales could be superior to any athleisure wear from our world, however modern. Past the lowest tiers it could go either way really.

Their purposes are quite different. Sure, if you have boots of speed, that might work. But real life running shoes and gear literally are boots of speed compared to normal gear. So comparing baselines like that doesn't work.

[Psyren]

But real life running shoes and gear literally are boots of speed compared to normal gear.

I think the gap between magic and mundane, especially magic specifically designed for this purpose, is wider than the gap between nonmagical athleisure and nonmagical leisure. As magic doesn't exist in our world however we have no way to prove this empirically.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think the gap between magic and mundane, especially magic specifically designed for this purpose, is wider than the gap between nonmagical athleisure and nonmagical leisure. As magic doesn't exist in our world however we have no way to prove this empirically.

Looking at the gap in performance, there's not actually that much difference.

And "magic" doesn't have to mean "powerful." That's a variable property.

[Psyren]

Looking at the gap in performance, there's not actually that much difference.

Given that they let you double your speed and then Dash, while also helping you avoid things like arrows and bullets, I'm okay agreeing to disagree on that.


And "magic" doesn't have to mean "powerful." That's a variable property.

I never said otherwise.

[Cheesegear]

The easiest way I can think of to find sprinting speed in "armor" is to look at American football players.

I'm not American. I wont pretend to understand how it works - nor Imperial measurements - but Google tells me that the standard NFL kit is about 6-7 lb. Pretty sure I used to run around school as a kid with a backpack that heavy.

I've only seen them in movies (like I said, not American); But there are these machines (?) that you stack weights onto that the footballers appear to smash into, and the goal appears to be to move the weights as fast as you can whilst running... That appears to be resistance training for sprinting. But hey, I don't actually know what it does. But trying to push a weight whilst running certainly sounds like resistance training.


And I've been told that swimming gear is even more important at the high end.

Cycling is where it's at. You basically auto-lose if your gear isn't good.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Cycling is where it's at. You basically auto-lose if your gear isn't good.

And expensive. I've heard they tally up the prices of your gear and if it isn't up to snuff, you can't participate.

[Doug Lampert]

I've only seen them in movies (like I said, not American); But there are these machines (?) that you stack weights onto that the footballers appear to smash into, and the goal appears to be to move the weights as fast as you can whilst running... That appears to be resistance training for sprinting. But hey, I don't actually know what it does. But trying to push a weight whilst running certainly sounds like resistance training.

NFL, staying low in a tackle is considered vital, because if you grab onto someone high they will simply keep running at nearly full speed. They'll talk about a really good running back "moving the pile" and this is specifically what they mean, that the guy keeps going with two or three other players piled on top of him (note that this is considered somewhat spectacular as usually someone does manage to tackle the guy).

Moving the pile can also mean that another player on the same side pushes the runner forward when he's otherwise been stopped (which way back when used to be illegal, I have no idea when they changed that).

On the opposite side, picking up an opposing player and throwing him into the ground is illegal, because of the injury risk. Hits to the legs can also be illegal under some circumstances, so there are limits on going low.

But going low also produces the opposite phenomena where one player simply jumps over another player who's attempting to stop him and keeps going. Note that there is a rule against jumping over the offensive line during kicks for player safety because going over is something an NFL player can do: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-bans-line-leaping-approves-ejections-for-head-hits-0ap3000000795748 as the article points out the guy being jumped over is usually the long-snapper, because he can't be standing erect at the start of the play. But jumping over someone trying for a tackle in the open field does happen.

[Willie the Duck]

IMO, fundamentally, a few things are true:

D&D movement (until you get to daily overland movement) has always been predicated on the assumption that you were either A) moving in combat in a fairly close skirmish (and let's be honest, didn't change when it switched from units to individuals), with deliberate and cautious movement right up until the route (where relative speed and when-pursuit-is-broken-off rules being more important than absolute speed); or B) cautiously moving around dark and dangerous dungeon corridors, where you have to poke forward at every cobblestone or peek with your lantern into every nook and cranny lest they miss a trap or hidden poisonous snake or the like. There have been various rules for movement outside this model, but always as afterthoughts.
D&D has not been consistent on how 'realistic' it wants to be-- running the gamut from pretty realistic to cinematic to feats of ability that would be at home in an anime/bollywood action movie/heroes of myth legend (and the limits on what a person can do without a spell cast is the subject of vicious debate). Various fans have various expectations at this point, and honestly D&D is stuck trying to have it more than one way at once (or at least picking a given realism would alienate >50% of their base, as it is well-distributed among >3 relatively mutually-exclusive ranges).
Ranges and distance and movement (again, until we hit overland movement rates) are also set up with gaming convenience in mind (notably with miniatures, although also based on the size of grid paper that can fit on sheets of paper. Realistic movement rates or weapon ranges take a back seat to whether 1" =5' squares will allow you to fit a not-readily-jogged-across-in-30-seconds dungeon on a 8 /12 x 11" sheet of graph paper and fit your longbow zone of threat onto a 6' gaming table (and thus the melee fighters having a specific # of rounds in long range, short range, charging distance, etc.).


Realizing this, and with my own judgment that a game ought be well-designed to easily facilitate what happens frequently in the game, do I think this makes the D&D movement rules bad? I'm going to say that no, this doesn't (they might still be bad, but not because of this). They focus tightly on making routine activity like dungeon crawling and advancing on ranged shooters easy to facilitate, map, and understand, and that I think is where the design goals should lie. Perhaps the chase rules (when they do come up) could have been given more depth and with some eye towards greater realism, but I doubt it would change who is and isn't satisfied with the rules and I certainly hope they wouldn't sacrifice the ease of use for more game-common situations to do so. Especially since it should so very rarely come up that the numbers are unrealistic. Given that we're using Imperial units, few people are going to have an internal relationship where their brain automatically converts feet/round to miles per hour* and thus it kills verisimilitude.
*yes, in the end it is just dividing by 8.8. Did you know that before doing the math for the sake of this discussion?

That said, and here's something I really think should happen all over the place in game rulebooks, why can't they have just said that in a nice little aside? I think 3e had some sidebars titled 'behind the curtain' that explained design decisions. That should be the norm (particularly nowadays when 32-64 page pamphlet sized games are the rarity and word count is hardly at a premium). Just say, 'these numbers are meant mostly for short-burst movement in combat, where caution is required and where multiple rounds of acceleration rarely happen. Outside that range, the DM should use speeds that make sense for that context. Where the two meet (such the fight intersecting entities moving at out-of-combat speeds), some adjudication will be required.'

[Slipjig]

Unless it's a very small town, going from one side of the town to the other would use travel speeds, not the combat/chase/turn-by-turn speeds.



The Fast travel space is 400ft/minute.



Well the books say otherwise, for sustained movement (aka you can go faster than 4 miles/hour, but only for a burst of speed, not for an hour). Don't have to follow the books on this or anything else, but there ain't other guidance on the question.



Why? Traveling pace is used even in dungeons.

4 mph sustained is actually a pretty reasonable sustained pace for somebody with armor and equipment. All the places where the Army has a fixed ruckmarxh standard to qualify for something, the time standard is 15 min/mile.

Dash SHOULD represent a flat-out sprint, but it obviously doesn't unless you are a Monk or Rogue. The standard Dash is a real-world jog.

Personally, I'd represent getting across town as quickly as possible on foot with a series of Athletics checks, take a level of exhaustion each time you fail one, and it's your call after each check whether you want to drop to a jog (which is about the speed represented by a normal dash action).

Of course, as the DM, let the PCs roll some checks and make some decisions to create some drama, but if the PC makes an honest effort to get there, he should arrive either in the nick of time or just barely too late, depending on the needs of your story.

[Sorinth]

I'm don't believe Dash is actually supposed to represent a flat out run.

Keep in mind from the PHB
Every character and monster has a speed, which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round. This number assumes short bursts of energetic movement in the midst of a life threatening situation.

So even when using the Dash you aren't running flat out, you are still having short bursts, you are still dodging and weaving to avoid life threatening stuff, etc... And so in that vein Movement Speed is actually more a representation of acceleration then velocity with a bit of agility thrown in the mix. So monks and rogues have higher speeds because during those short burst they reach higher velocities and their agility means they don't slow down as much when passing something dangerous. The top speed is probably based more on your Atheltics roll/contest.

EDIT: A flat out run is probably more like how you can exceed your jump distance but it's basically ask your DM.

[Psyren]

If the PC makes an honest effort to get there, he should arrive either in the nick of time or just barely too late, depending on the needs of your story.

This to me is the key. Before even calling for a roll, you should be figuring out if getting there in time is even possible in the first place, and assuming it's not impossible or trivial, what the consequences of failing to do so are.

With that said, player decisions should also play a role. If you tell them the streets are crowded be prepared to adjudicate what happens if they (a) try that anyway or (b) try the rooftops instead etc.

[Telok]

I do find this all rather funny.

Jump off a 500' cliff and hit the ground running? Sure thing. Climb a 10 mile high tree wearing a shield & plate with 50 lb pack? Five hours and done. Swim the English Channel with a 100 lb stone tied to your neck? Every other Tuesday. Cast a spell so you can fly 30 mph? Absolutely normal. Jog two miles in 20 minutes in light armor and no pack? Woah, can't let that happen. Wouldn't be prudent. That might be unrealistic. But maybe the DM will be nice and let you roll to move at "speed of plot".

[heavyfuel]

I do find this all rather funny.

Jump off a 500' cliff and hit the ground running? Sure thing. Climb a 10 mile high tree wearing a shield & plate with 50 lb pack? Five hours and done. Swim the English Channel with a 100 lb stone tied to your neck? Every other Tuesday. Cast a spell so you can fly 30 mph? Absolutely normal. Jog two miles in 20 minutes in light armor and no pack? Woah, can't let that happen. Wouldn't be prudent. That might be unrealistic. But maybe the DM will be nice and let you roll to move at "speed of plot".

I literally laughed out loud. Thanks!:smallbiggrin:

[strangebloke]

I do find this all rather funny.

Jump off a 500' cliff and hit the ground running? Sure thing. Climb a 10 mile high tree wearing a shield & plate with 50 lb pack? Five hours and done. Swim the English Channel with a 100 lb stone tied to your neck? Every other Tuesday. Cast a spell so you can fly 30 mph? Absolutely normal. Jog two miles in 20 minutes in light armor and no pack? Woah, can't let that happen. Wouldn't be prudent. That might be unrealistic. But maybe the DM will be nice and let you roll to move at "speed of plot".

A light jog across town just isn't that heroic, is the thing. You have to slow down a bit or there's no time to build dramatic tension.

[Psyren]

Jump off a 500' cliff and hit the ground running? Sure thing.

After a certain falling distance, improvised and massive damage rules should really replace the falling damage rules.


But maybe the DM will be nice and let you roll to move at "speed of plot".

I mean, that's as much a favor to them as the player. Presumably the DM didn't write that plot just to admire it while everyone else plays Chase Simulator.

[Telok]

I mean, that's as much a favor to them as the player. Presumably the DM didn't write that plot just to admire it while everyone else plays Chase Simulator.

As a DM I never, ever, set up to put an event in one place & the party in another if they don't have a way to get there in time. Every time I playing & one of my characters or parties has skimped, rushed, or pushed to get somewhere before bad **** happens we've been royally ****ed over by "speed of plot" jackassery.

Its to the point that I now warn new DMs to tell me, explicitly, when speed of plot applies because I reserve the right to wreck any plot, script, module, or plans, that ****s with me that way.

If I, as DM, set up a "do they get there in time" scenario, then they absolutely can get there in time and I've planned for all reasonably possible outcomes based on character abilities. If they sacrifice to go faster & get there earlier it is always a benefit and never a screwjob. When the pcs are supposed to be heroic good guys you don't punish them for doing the good guy tropes. You"re DMing to run a fun game, not to be a ****.

Now, if the players manage to set up circumstances where they can't get somewhere fast enough to deal with events they directly caused and that directly affect them, then I'm cool with it because the source was them excercising their agency. If I'm DM then there's also always one or more ways to learn about what will happen for these sorts of actions before they get started, even if its just a vague "yeah, that'll probably do something super bad". If I'm one of those players then its all cool, because its the consequences of my (or my party's) actions.

[Tanarii]

I use the chase rules version for any consecutive uses of Dashing, including in combat, with a minor modification. The check is a Con (Athletics) check. Rogues have to check for each Dash, they can easily burn out fast if they double-Dash back to back.

My personal experience, is that 6/mph or 10 minute miles is where I consider the break point/transition from a jog to a run, and when I'm in decent shape I can average roughly that (including some walking to catch my breath) for 3 miles / 30 minutes. That's in shorts and tee (no equipment) on flat good asphalt. This in no way affects my the rules I use in game though.

[animorte]

I personally prefer the 50-yard dash. I can definitely run with the others though.

Already been said, but a movement of 60 ft. in 6 seconds isn't particularly fast. Athletes in various sports aim for a sprint of 60 yards in 6 seconds, which is 3x the speed. Of course that's not including other potential actions taken in that one round of a ttrpg.

I think the original idea of a Constitution save every hour is reasonable though (DC 10 + 1/hour + 1/point of exhaustion). Maintaining any sort of constant movement is going to begin to take a toll eventually and the dash - while not fast - certainly isn't a relaxed pace.

[Psyren]

As a DM I never, ever, set up to put an event in one place & the party in another if they don't have a way to get there in time. Every time I playing & one of my characters or parties has skimped, rushed, or pushed to get somewhere before bad **** happens we've been royally ****ed over by "speed of plot" jackassery.

Its to the point that I now warn new DMs to tell me, explicitly, when speed of plot applies because I reserve the right to wreck any plot, script, module, or plans, that ****s with me that way.

If I, as DM, set up a "do they get there in time" scenario, then they absolutely can get there in time and I've planned for all reasonably possible outcomes based on character abilities. If they sacrifice to go faster & get there earlier it is always a benefit and never a screwjob. When the pcs are supposed to be heroic good guys you don't punish them for doing the good guy tropes. You"re DMing to run a fun game, not to be a ****.

Now, if the players manage to set up circumstances where they can't get somewhere fast enough to deal with events they directly caused and that directly affect them, then I'm cool with it because the source was them excercising their agency. If I'm DM then there's also always one or more ways to learn about what will happen for these sorts of actions before they get started, even if its just a vague "yeah, that'll probably do something super bad". If I'm one of those players then its all cool, because its the consequences of my (or my party's) actions.

Agreed and just as a reminder to others - "fail the check" does not have to mean you don't get there in time. You can arrive with a level of exhaustion because you overexerted yourself, or the guy you're chasing might have noticed you and laid an ambush with his friends, or the DM might require you to burn a resource like wild shape or rage or action surge en route before the fight starts, or you might be a couple of rounds late and force the faster party members to start without you etc.

[Cheesegear]

Agreed and just as a reminder to others - "fail the check" does not have to mean you don't get there in time. You can arrive with a level of exhaustion because you overexerted yourself, or the guy you're chasing might have noticed you and laid an ambush with his friends...

This. If the players want to engage with the scene, then I want the scene to play out. The only reason not to run the scenario is if the player(s) stop, and then in that case the scene plays out as if the players weren't there, and something bad happens.

But I'm more concerned with how the scenario plays out, in regards to the players:

Do some of them get there before the rest of the party?
Do some of them arrive with Exhaustion?
Do some of them burn resources to narratively - or actually - go faster?

How do the players actions and abilities leading up to the scene, affect their actions and abilities in the scene. Bearing in mind that rolling dice is fun, and at some point I may have to use this mechanic - whatever it happens to be - again.

I'm tempted to just go with the 3+Con free Dashes (240-300 ft.; ~75-100m with no Exhaustion chance sounds fine), but change the Exhaustion roll to Constitution (Athletics), as has been suggested. This likely means that the non-casters show up first, without Exhaustion, and have to do the first two rounds without magical backup? It's definitely...Something. The Chase rules are written down in the book. Whether or not they make sense, they are a precedent.

[Telok]

Sorry about the rant. Just a sore point that running off leaving gear & burning resources in emergencies makes you still arrive 300 yards away at the same time as those who put on plate, cast buffs, packed bags, and cleaned camp.


Something. The Chase rules are written down in the book. Whether or not they make sense, they are a precedent.

If you have a link to a clean mobile friendly copy of the chase rules I'll slap up a simple web page simulator over lunch and see about posting it this evening.

[CapnWildefyr]

This. If the players want to engage with the scene, then I want the scene to play out. The only reason not to run the scenario is if the player(s) stop, and then in that case the scene plays out as if the players weren't there, and something bad happens.

But I'm more concerned with how the scenario plays out, in regards to the players:

Do some of them get there before the rest of the party?
Do some of them arrive with Exhaustion?
Do some of them burn resources to narratively - or actually - go faster?

How do the players actions and abilities leading up to the scene, affect their actions and abilities in the scene. Bearing in mind that rolling dice is fun, and at some point I may have to use this mechanic - whatever it happens to be - again.

I'm tempted to just go with the 3+Con free Dashes (240-300 ft.; ~75-100m with no Exhaustion chance sounds fine), but change the Exhaustion roll to Constitution (Athletics), as has been suggested. This likely means that the non-casters show up first, without Exhaustion, and have to do the first two rounds without magical backup? It's definitely...Something. The Chase rules are written down in the book. Whether or not they make sense, they are a precedent.

You may wish to decide what the impact of Getting There can be. Suppose the Bad Thing is a kidnapping. Can they get there in time to warn the target, so the target changes plans and there is no kidnapping attempt? Can they intercept the kidnappers before they get close to the target? Or will they merely arrive during the attempt, and have a chance to thwart it?

I asking because maybe you can abstract the whole thing to the Con check, success or failure determining not whether they get there in time, but what they have to do when they get there. If it's now assured that there will be an encounter, then you don't technically have to calculate anything -- just determine what they get to react to.

Maybe even assume no exhaustion. But if they are willing to risk a level of exhaustion, let them trade that risk for getting there in time to intercept the kidnappers. Just a thought.

[Sorinth]

Sorry about the rant. Just a sore point that running off leaving gear & burning resources in emergencies makes you still arrive 300 yards away at the same time as those who put on plate, cast buffs, packed bags, and cleaned camp.

But you don't need to have a super precise speed/distances calculations.

Let's say you have your BBEG scene prepared. If they rush the scene is changed in one way and if they take their time it changes in a different way. There's no need to be super precise about speed/distance, it's just a simple judgment call from the DM about whether they tried to go fast or slow. That always seemed easier to me then trying to math it all out.

[Psyren]

You may wish to decide what the impact of Getting There can be. Suppose the Bad Thing is a kidnapping. Can they get there in time to warn the target, so the target changes plans and there is no kidnapping attempt? Can they intercept the kidnappers before they get close to the target? Or will they merely arrive during the attempt, and have a chance to thwart it?

I asking because maybe you can abstract the whole thing to the Con check, success or failure determining not whether they get there in time, but what they have to do when they get there. If it's now assured that there will be an encounter, then you don't technically have to calculate anything -- just determine what they get to react to.

Maybe even assume no exhaustion. But if they are willing to risk a level of exhaustion, let them trade that risk for getting there in time to intercept the kidnappers. Just a thought.


But you don't need to have a super precise speed/distances calculations.

Let's say you have your BBEG scene prepared. If they rush the scene is changed in one way and if they take their time it changes in a different way. There's no need to be super precise about speed/distance, it's just a simple judgment call from the DM about whether they tried to go fast or slow. That always seemed easier to me then trying to math it all out.

Agreed with both of these.

And the math is rarely that useful anyway - it assumes you're running in a straight line across a featureless, unpopulated, unobstructed level plane with clear line of sight to your objective and no obstacles, which matches no city I've heard of, to say nothing of a natural environment like a forest, canyon, swamp etc.

[Cheesegear]

If you have a link to a clean mobile friendly copy of the chase rules

You can Dash [3+Con] times. For most PCs, this is likely to be 240-300 ft. of movement.
After the 'free' Dashes, each time you Dash you roll a [check]*, a failure on the check means you still Dash, but you gain Exhaustion.

Exhaustion(1): Disadvantage on ability checks. This makes all subsequent Dashes harder. Good.
Exhaustion(2): Speed halved. Perfect.

Luckily you can't Dash yourself to death, since Exhaustion(5) means you stop moving. Then again, you can opt to Dash, but [2*0=0], and then after trying to Dash and not moving at all you just die? Funny thought experiment.

*Best thought so far is to change the check to Constitution (Athletics)...I literally don't know what the original check is meant to be Con (Ath) is such a good idea that I'm just going to forget what the real rule is.

[PhoenixPhyre]

And the math is rarely that useful anyway - it assumes you're running in a straight line across a featureless, unpopulated, unobstructed level plane with clear line of sight to your objective and no obstacles, which matches no city I've heard of, to say nothing of a natural environment like a forest, canyon, swamp etc.

Yeah. Basically, you're well beyond the practical abstractions, so doing direct math isn't going to actually be more meaningful than just ball-parking it + some possible "success at a cost" if it's dicey.

[Telok]

You can Dash [3+Con] times. For most PCs, this is likely to be 240-300 ft. of movement.
After the 'free' Dashes, each time you Dash you roll a [check]*, a failure on the check means you still Dash, but you gain Exhaustion.

Yeah but thats not the rules. Theres stuff about stealth checks, initative, and obstacles. Leaving stuff out just feeds the "rules dont matter because the dm makes everything up so you cant simulate anything" crowd. If I dig around to find a decent mobile friendly version it'll take mostbofvyhevtime I'd have to write the sim.

[strangebloke]

I don't know, I feel pretty comfortable just saying "this isn't something that commonly happens in a campaign, so just adjudicate it as you as a DM see fit, allowing for the fact that PCs are supposed to be somewhat superhuman."

EDIT either CON score minutes or 1 hour both seem fine.

[Psyren]

^ That and "can we get from one end of the city to the other in time" depends heavily on, well, the city. And many other factors. So detailed rules around that are likely to do more harm than good.

[sithlordnergal]

And, no, you can't Bonus Dash and then Action Dash to move triple or quadruple your speed. Dash doubles your speed for that turn, and that's it.[/SPOILER]


Actually, you're incorrect here. You can use Cunning Action to Dash as a Bonus Action, then Dash as an Action. Every Dash increases your movement speed by a number equal to your current base movement. I.E. A Wood Elf Rogue with Mobile can move 45 feet, Bonus Action Dash to make it 90 feet, then action Dash to make that 135ft in a turn.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/double-dash-in-1-turn/

If you wanna go nuts, you could technically make a level 20 Monk/Fighter/Elk Totem Barbarian Tabaxi with Mobile, active Boots of Speed, Haste, Tabaxi Speed, and the Eagle Whistle have a base fly speed of 400ft. They could then use Step of the Wind for a bonus Action Dash, Haste Action to Dash, Regular Action to Dash, and Action Surge to Dash for a total movement speed of 2,000 feet that turn. Though they can't move the next turn. You could technically boost it further if you go Eldritch Knight Fighter 3 / Elk Totem Barbarian 3 / Monk 14 and cast Longstrider on yourself.

Of course, such a build would be ridiculous, completely ineffective at everything else due to multiclass requirements, would be very impractical, and clearly needs specific items to work...which is why I did it.


EDIT: As for the OP, there really aren't many rules about how many times you can Dash unless you're in a chase. If those chase rules applied to Combat as well, Rogues and Monks, who can dash pretty frequently, would be in a loooot of trouble.


EDIT 2: I have realized something, I can go faster with Eldritch Knight 3 / Elk Totem Barbarian 5 / Monk 12.

[CapnWildefyr]

^ That and "can we get from one end of the city to the other in time" depends heavily on, well, the city. And many other factors. So detailed rules around that are likely to do more harm than good.

And if the DM has not posted a hard deadline, like "you have 10 minutes" or "when the town clock strikes noon and right now it's 1150," how fast you go doesn't matter if the DM has also decided that you have a chance to intervene in whatever it is. The DM can just place you there earlier or later in the action, where your chances of succeeding might go down the later you arrive, and let that depend on a Con roll or description of how they hustle or not.

EDIT: I can see Cheesegear saying, "Look, you won't make it unless you flat out run, at this point, and you'll probably arrive winded. you'll have to make a ___ check. And whoever makes by the most gets there first."

[sithlordnergal]

And if the DM has not posted a hard deadline, like "you have 10 minutes" or "when the town clock strikes noon and right now it's 1150," how fast you go doesn't matter if the DM has also decided that you have a chance to intervene in whatever it is. The DM can just place you there earlier or later in the action, where your chances of succeeding might go down the later you arrive, and let that depend on a Con roll or description of how they hustle or not.

EDIT: I can see Cheesegear saying, "Look, you won't make it unless you flat out run, at this point, and you'll probably arrive winded. you'll have to make a ___ check. And whoever makes by the most gets there first."

MY time has come...I can fly 2000 feet per round every other round. >=D It is the one time my Min/Maxing for speed will have any use TTwTT

[Cheesegear]

EDIT: I can see Cheesegear saying, "Look, you won't make it unless you flat out run, at this point, and you'll probably arrive winded. you'll have to make a ___ check. And whoever makes by the most gets there first."

...That's...A really good idea. Roll a special Initiative check:

Instead of a normal Initiative roll, roll Constitution (Athletics). Those who roll <5 (<10? Too harsh?) begin the scene with one point of Exhaustion - removable by a short or long rest.

Then play the scene using the Athletics roll as the player(s) Initiative...Assuming of course the first player there gets to the scene, says 'WTF!?' and draws steel.

[thoroughlyS]

My one critique for that idea is that it doesn't take into account any character with a different walking speed. If one of our PCs has Mobile (etc.), they should probably have advantage on the roll. I assume they'd still want to arrive with the party, but they'd be sandbagging themselves and therefore shouldn't be winded.



EDIT: I have spent some more time thinking about how to add more options for movement outside of combat. I would add a new line to the Travel Pace table, and expand the rules for a Forced March.



Distance
Traveled
per...


Pace
Minute
Hour
Day
Effect


Run
600 feet
6 miles
—
-5 penalty to passive Wisdom (Perception) scores, each hour of running counts as 2 hours of travel


Fast
400 feet
4 miles
30 miles
-5 penalty to passive Wisdom (Perception) scores


Normal
300 feet
3 miles
24 miles
—


Slow
200 feet
2 miles
18 miles
Able to use stealth


Forced March. The Travel Pace table assumes that characters travel for 8 hours in day. They can push on beyond that limit, at the risk of exhaustion.
For each additional hour of travel beyond 8 hours, the characters cover the distance shown in the Hour column for their pace, and each character must make a Constitution saving throw at the end of the hour. The DC is 10 + 1 for each hour past 8 hours. On a failed saving throw, a character suffers one level of exhaustion (see the appendix).
Running for extended periods is especially taxing. Each character must make this saving throw at the end of each hour of running, regardless of how many hours they have been running. The DC is 10 + 1 for each hour of running.