Viability of dagger and shield as a duskblade

[Sir_Chivalry]

To begin, I'm aware of two-handers being the standard by which other weapons are measured. Spellcasting is easier, damage output scales well. If the following proves too much in play I can easily swap to a greatsword and maintain flavour consistency

I'm looking at playing a duskblade 2/paladin 4/suel arcanamach (which may end up a duskblade 4/paladin 2 or duskblade 6 with paladin style roleplay), devoted to the Greyhawk deity Wee Jas, whose favoured weapon is a dagger (and one related Suel god, her nephew Kord, uses a greatsword)

It got me thinking about playing a sort of formalized knife combat fighter.

Would arcane channeling (if 3rd level or higher) the arcane strike feat or knowledge devotion feat be able to meaningfully bridge the gap left behind by not being able to power attack with a light weapon? Are there feats that would help either to shore up weaknesses or play into strengths of the dagger as a weapon without investment in swashbuckler, swordsage or rogue?

[Saintheart]

Have a look at the bag of knife-related stuff (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810-The-Subtle-Knife-Options-for-Players-and-DMs-using-the-Dagger) I compiled, but unfortunately I think the answer to your ultimate question's going to be "No".

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well, one of the foremost advantages of a light weapon is the ability to use Weapon Finesse with it. Just keep 10 Str and put the rest in dex, then focus on arcane channeling for damage. There are also loads of dagger-centered PrC, like Daggerspell mage; Saintheart has even written a handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596810-The-Subtle-Knife-Options-for-Players-and-DMs-using-the-Dagger) on the subject. All in all, that's not the worst choice for a Duskblade.

Edit: And the man himself swordsage'd me. Speaking of, a dip in swordsage or rogue, even if you're mostly duskblade, should help tremendously.

[ShurikVch]

Can duskblade channel with shield slam?

[Seward]

Once you've made the decision to go TWF or Sword+Board, a dagger isn't a lot worse than a longsword. You give up 2 points of average damage but you still have a slash/pierce 19-20 crit weapon. Power attack is borderline when you are only getting a 1-1 benefit, the missed hits are often not worth the extra damage, especially if you have damage add-ons like smite, channeling and/or arcane-strike.

Some observations if you intend to shield bash/TWF....

TWF and arcane strike is a bit of an awkward mix (arcane strike is worded to affect only one weapon)

TWF Duskblade can work if you stay with the class with arcane strike as a bridge between L9 and L13 (when channeling DOES work with every attack) but it's going to feel weaker than other options until L13 and you will be leaning on your gish/arcane utility to contribute as much as your raw battle damage until then.

Basically though, the class progression you describe doesn't benefit much from TWF. You don't have static damage to add to each attack as the better TWF builds do, your spell slots are all low level so even if you do burn 2 spells to arcane strike both weapons you won't get as much advantage out of it etc.

If your goal is a defensive tank, with just enough offense to be not ignored though, your chasse isn't terrible. Duskblade has 2 good saves, Paladin adds cha to saves and provides immunities, both are full bab+spellcasters, you can do heavy armor+shield for relatively inexpensive AC if you push your WBL in that direction. Compared to a basic sword+board tank you can do ok there - get that 3rd level of duskblade or perhaps a lance+mount or both to boost your "close with enemies+attack with enough damage to be noticed" activities and maybe add arcane strike or perhaps a meaningful combat mount to make your full attack more impressive and it could still be pretty fun.

Just be aware that you are NOT a Leap Attacking, raging 2h barbarian and can't expect to compete in that arena (your competition is more like Tordek, only with better ac, saves and a flashier offence+spellcasting utility).


Can duskblade channel with shield slam?
Yes. A shield slam is a melee weapon (including shield normally needing to be enchanted separately from defensive enchantments to be considered a magic weapon). Natural weapons or non-monk Unarmed attacks may have table variation depending on how the GM interprets "melee weapon" in the following rules text. (at my table, channeling would work with any "armed" melee attack that does melee damage including improved unarmed strike but not "unimproved" unarmed strike)


you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack.

[Kurald Galain]

Would arcane channeling (if 3rd level or higher) the arcane strike feat or knowledge devotion feat be able to meaningfully bridge the gap left behind by not being able to power attack with a light weapon?
No, since the default two-handed duskblade builds also use arcane strike and knowledge devotion. Plus you probably want a reach weapon on your dusky.

Note that arcane strike requires 3rd level spells (level 9 on a straight duskblade, 10 on a suel), and that knowledge devotion isn't really worthwhile yet at low levels. So at level 3-ish, that's a firm no.

For this build, I recommend backporting the Magus from Pathfinder, really.

[Seward]

For this build, I recommend backporting the Magus from Pathfinder, really.

I've taken to looking at a 1 level dip into Havok Mage (Mini Handbook) when considering options for a martial with significant arcane spellcasting (which isn't this build. As with arcane strike, you need to be a real GISH, not somebody multiclassing duskblade/paladin). Full attack+spell as part of the full attack (no channel requirement, no use of swift action, you can just do it). Pathfinder Magus takes a similar approach, but can do its thing as early as level 1 (it basically does TWF with a spell in your offhand, weapon in your main hand, with option to shift that offhand "spell" to a channeling-like effect pretty early)

[Nihilarian]

Havoc Mage is a fullround action to make one attack and cast a spell, not a full attack

EDIT: also a one level dip only gets you battlecast for 2nd level spells, you need all 5 levels to battlecast up to 8th level

[Gruftzwerg]

I would go for a duskbalde 13/xxx build.

Race: human

Feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
1: Martial Study (just pick something you like)
3: Martial Stance (e.g. Child of Shadow = gives concealment if you move 10ft)
6: Shadow Blade
9: Fly By Attack *assuming that you have an item that gives you a "fly speed" at this point*
12: Great Fly By Attack
15: Combat Reflexes (can be exchanged)
18: Robilar's Gambit (can be exchanged)

The build prioritizes DEX. Great Fly By Attack allows to fly in a direct line and hit all enemies in your reach, up to your DEX modifier (amount of targets). Combine it with your Greater Arcane Channeling ability for profit.

[Kurald Galain]

1: Martial Study (just pick something you like)
3: Martial Stance (e.g. Child of Shadow = gives concealment if you move 10ft)
But if TOB classes are allowed, why on earth would you play a duskblade?

[Gruftzwerg]

But if TOB classes are allowed, why on earth would you play a duskblade?

He said he doesn't want to invest into other classes. swordsage was one of em. As far as I see it, only the classes are somewhat blocked, but not the book itself.

[Wildstag]

But if TOB classes are allowed, why on earth would you play a duskblade?

I suspect that's a blue-text statement without the blue-text, but perhaps because the person wants spells specifically, since spells open you up to a whole host of prcs, and alternatively because ToB classes don't grant access to Enervation, Disintegrate, or Polar Ray.

[Kurald Galain]

I suspect that's a blue-text statement without the blue-text, but perhaps because the person wants spells specifically

Well if TOB is on the table, you can probably find a fullcaster / TOB multiclass that has better attack options and better spells than a duskblade.

[Tzardok]

Or maybe, just maybe, the OP finds duskblades interesting or fun or whatever and wants to play one?

[Troacctid]

Both the manyfang dagger (SK) and the spectral dagger (MIC) are powerful magic weapons that are only available as daggers.

[Seward]

Havoc Mage is a fullround action to make one attack and cast a spell, not a full attack

EDIT: also a one level dip only gets you battlecast for 2nd level spells, you need all 5 levels to battlecast up to 8th level

Arg, damn, you're right. I knew about the second limit, but somebody going duskblade2/paladin4 as starting chasse was not going to get past L2 spells anyway for most of his career so I didn't consider it important. I could have sworn it was full attack+spell but I see that I remembered wrong.

[Saintheart]

Once you've made the decision to go TWF or Sword+Board, a dagger isn't a lot worse than a longsword.

For TWF, sure, because a dagger can be easily wielded in the off hand.

For Sword+Board, a dagger is terrible if you're relying on Weapon Finesse. Your shield's ACP is applied to your attack rolls.

[ShurikVch]

For Sword+Board, a dagger is terrible if you're relying on Weapon Finesse. Your shield's ACP is applied to your attack rolls.
Mithral Shields have no ACP
(Same thing for Hellforged Bucklers or Light Shields)

[Gruftzwerg]

Mithral Shields have no ACP
(Same thing for Hellforged Bucklers or Light Shields)

if we take gear options into account: Animated Shield + TWF daggers can also be fun

[Sir_Chivalry]

Duskblade is one of the best classes for entering Suel Arcanamach, being a class which can on it's own simply go 5 levels plus 1 whatever level in something to qualify, no weird class skill hoops. There are many other classes that can qualify well such as warblade and crusader with arcane spellcaster dips, ranger, hexblade, paladin and knight, bard and barbarian all have something, I am aware there are options.

Looking over the incredible resources for daggers I see a few things which might make life a little less painful if I go this route. Quiet dagger works equally well for a mageslaying warrior as it does for an assassin, and several other powerful magical daggers beg to be "combined" in the manner of the Magic Items Compendium onto that attractive weapon.

[Remuko]

For TWF, sure, because a dagger can be easily wielded in the off hand.

For Sword+Board, a dagger is terrible if you're relying on Weapon Finesse. Your shield's ACP is applied to your attack rolls.

duskblades are proficient with shields. you dont take your shields ACP to attack roles if youre proficient...

[Sir_Chivalry]

duskblades are proficient with shields. you dont take your shields ACP to attack roles if youre proficient...

Weapon Finesse "With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls."

[Seward]

On the other hand, masterwork light shields and bucklers are ACP = 0, as are darkwood and mithril heavy shields.

So unless you are weapon finessing with a tower shield (not that Duskblades are proficient with that anyway) it is unlikely to matter if you intend to ever enchant your lighter shield or can afford the extra couple hundred gold for a darkwood heavy shield.

[Remuko]

Weapon Finesse "With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls."

ah i didnt realize it was part of the finesse feat, i thought it was being claimed as a general rule. mea culpa. (i dont play finesse characters much)

[Rebel7284]

Both the manyfang dagger (SK) and the spectral dagger (MIC) are powerful magic weapons that are only available as daggers.

Basically was going to say this. Manyfang Dagger's ability balances out the drawbacks of being a dagger for the most part.

Crescent Knives are also a lot of fun due to doubling your number of attacks, but don't work with duskblade nearly as well unless you take it to 13.

[daremetoidareyo]

Duskblade into assassin?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Certainly a plethora of attractive dagger options like manyfang dagger, meteoric knife and quiet dagger for a suel arcanamach, I'll grant you guys that. Almost enough to make someone want to stick with this weapon . . .

[Bphill561]

Might be tempting to add the Feycrafted template from DMGII to make the weapon attack off dex without the finesse feat. 1d3 seems close enough to 1d4 and you can always use a special material to get your hardness back up.