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View Full Version : Iron heroes and ToB, can it even be done.



YPU
2007-11-25, 05:40 AM
I am starting a iron heroes game soon, but one of my players is a real fan of tome of battle, tough he hasn’t had a chance to try it out. Now I am contemplating whether or not its even feasible. And then should it be a class or perhaps a feat tree with the level of strike being limited by the level of your mastery? I know the whole thing is kinda wonkie, but perhaps the swarm mind of this board can come up with something.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-25, 06:36 AM
I really don't think that this will work. Iron Heroes is really not balanced with the idea of putting other material (from typical high-magic games) in.

My suggestion is to run a one-shot, with half the party running ToB classes, and the other half Iron Heroes classes. Neither with any magical equipment, of course. ToB classes are, IMO, better than Iron Heroes classes (especially since the skill challenges will also be available to them).

Dausuul
2007-11-25, 11:15 PM
ToB classes are, IMO, better than Iron Heroes classes (especially since the skill challenges will also be available to them).

I... doubt this, to say the least. Iron Heroes is balanced on the assumption that there will be no magic items. ToB is balanced on the assumption that characters will have standard WBL. It seems highly unlikely that a ToB character could keep up with an Iron Heroes character out of the box if both get equivalent gear.

If you really want to import ToB to Iron Heroes, I suggest making appropriate adjustments to the classes:

1. Use the Iron Heroes save mechanic (your base save equals your character level).
2. Upgrade everybody's hit points using the IH system, so the warblade gets 8+1d4, the crusader gets 6+1d4, and the swordsage gets 4+1d4.
3. Give all three classes the base defense bonus of a Man-at-Arms.

Note that swordsages will gain the most from being imported to an Iron Heroes world, due to their quasi-magical abilities. This doesn't make them stronger in combat, but in a world where invisibility, teleportation, and flight are rare and little-known, those abilities are much more powerful simply because no one is prepared to defend against them. In a D&D campaign setting, you can expect anti-teleportation wards, invisibility detectors, and anti-air defenses in pretty much any well-defended location. In Iron Heroes... not so much.

Of course, the other solution is to wait for next June, when we will hopefully see the best of Iron Heroes and the Tome of Battle all packed together in 4E. :smallcool:

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-26, 12:45 AM
I... doubt this, to say the least. Iron Heroes is balanced on the assumption that there will be no magic items. ToB is balanced on the assumption that characters will have standard WBL. It seems highly unlikely that a ToB character could keep up with an Iron Heroes character out of the box if both get equivalent gear.

You need to keep in mind that alot of the balancing against lack of magic items in Iron Heroes is built into the challenge and skill system, which ToB characters have equal access to. The only class in Iron Heroes that is head-and-shoulders above a typical ToB character is the Harrier (which can absolutely break the game via Jump skill challenges).

The other big balancing factor in favor of fighter classes in Iron Heroes is the lack of a good spellcasting class (barring the fact that summoning magic in Iron Heroes is very badly designed).


Of course, the other solution is to wait for next June, when we will hopefully see the best of Iron Heroes and the Tome of Battle all packed together in 4E.

You do realize that the one is WotC, and the other is Malhavoc Press, right?

Dausuul
2007-11-26, 01:00 AM
You need to keep in mind that alot of the balancing against lack of magic items in Iron Heroes is built into the challenge and skill system, which ToB characters have equal access to. The only class in Iron Heroes that is head-and-shoulders above a typical ToB character is the Harrier (which can absolutely break the game via Jump skill challenges).

Base defense? Base save bonus equals level? Dramatically higher hit points per die? A feat every other level? Every single Iron Heroes class has these, giving them a big advantage in terms of raw numbers. And then there are the feat trees.

Base defense alone is enough to put IH characters way past ToB ones. If you're using the Iron Heroes rules for armor, the ToB classes will have mediocre AC, even the usually impressive swordsage. If you're using the D&D rules, the IH classes will have spectacular AC.


You do realize that the one is WotC, and the other is Malhavoc Press, right?

And you do realize that Mike Mearls was hired straight off his work on Iron Heroes to help design 4E, right? :smallbiggrin:

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-26, 01:09 AM
Base defense? Base save bonus equals level? Dramatically higher hit points per die? A feat every other level? Every single Iron Heroes class has these, giving them a big advantage in terms of raw numbers. And then there are the feat trees.

Base Defense and faster feat progression are not tied to the Iron Heroes classes, they are part of the system. There is no reason that the ToB classes could not take the Iron Heroes feat trees (again, they are tied to the system, not the classes themselves).

You got me on the HP, though. That should be boosted for ToB classes.


And you do realize that Mike Mearls was hired straight off his work on Iron Heroes to help design 4E, right?

No I did not. Another reason I won't be buying anything but the 4th ed. PHB.

Dausuul
2007-11-26, 01:44 AM
Base Defense and faster feat progression are not tied to the Iron Heroes classes, they are part of the system. There is no reason that the ToB classes could not take the Iron Heroes feat trees (again, they are tied to the system, not the classes themselves).

You got me on the HP, though. That should be boosted for ToB classes.

Base defense is class-specific, not a universal rule; the berserker's progression is slower than the weapon master's. And since the ToB classes have no masteries, they cannot qualify for feat trees. I'll concede the 1 feat/2 levels rule, though.

All in all, it looks like we're arguing for the same thing: Put the ToB classes through a conversion process to the IH system and they will be strong contenders. How strong, exactly, would likely depend on what masteries they got; I'd give them sub-optimal masteries, since they have the maneuver system to do what IH characters normally use masteries for.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-26, 01:47 AM
Base defense is class-specific, not a universal rule; the berserker's progression is slower than the weapon master's. And since the ToB classes have no masteries, they cannot qualify for feat trees. I'll concede the 1 feat/2 levels rule, though.

All in all, it looks like we're arguing for the same thing: Put the ToB classes through a conversion process to the IH system.

True, it does seem like we are both saying the same thing, just from a different perspective. The class defense system is not unique to Iron Heroes though.

Applying the appropriate Defense bonus, feat mastery, etc. to ToB classes should be enough. They don't need anything more than converted to the IH system.

YPU
2007-11-26, 12:16 PM
I have been putting my mind to it and I think that importing the classes just isn’t the way to go, in any case you would need to rewrite so much that its easier to whip up a whole new class. Anyway, one of my players suggested using the strikes and stances just like feats. Would need to assign a mastery to each style and you would need to have mastery equal to the level of the maneuver. I have no idea if this would work, but it would give the heroes a nice way to get some sort of signature move.
Also keep in mind I am not using the arc (what a total miss that was.) instead I use the spellcaster from the new players book, (of which both I cant remember the name and I am to lazy to go upstairs and check.)

@ Skjaldbakka: why would the harrier be overpowered? I always felt they could use a bit extra. I realize I probably am missing some sort of combo of things that totally breaks things, but please enlighten me.

Spriteless
2007-11-26, 12:31 PM
No I did not. Another reason I won't be buying anything but the 4th ed. PHB.

I might only buy the splatbooks if the PHB is online like with D20.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-26, 01:38 PM
I like to have a hard copy of the core books. Since I will nly play, not run 4th ed, that means the PHB.

As for harriers, the issue is that every +10ft. of movement speed grants a +4 bonus to Jump checks. Since Jump checks can be used to gain combat bonuses, and scales with high jump checks, this becomes a problem, even when there isn't space to use the craziness that is harrier.

Skill challenges are an often overlooked aspect of Iron Heroes, but you can do a lot with skills, and jump is a skill a harrier can get to ridiculous levels.

Dausuul
2007-11-26, 02:23 PM
I like to have a hard copy of the core books. Since I will nly play, not run 4th ed, that means the PHB.

As for harriers, the issue is that every +10ft. of movement speed grants a +4 bonus to Jump checks. Since Jump checks can be used to gain combat bonuses, and scales with high jump checks, this becomes a problem, even when there isn't space to use the craziness that is harrier.

Skill challenges are an often overlooked aspect of Iron Heroes, but you can do a lot with skills, and jump is a skill a harrier can get to ridiculous levels.

And even without skill cheese, harriers are highly effective as long as you make sure to move a lot every round. With Combat Expertise, you end up with a huge floating pool of attack'n'defense that you can divide up pretty much however you wish. Either you can hit anything, or nothing can hit you. Garnish with the Suicidal Strike defense challenge if you need more damage output.

Granted, you don't deal as much damage as a berserker or an executioner, but what you do dish out is relentless... you never freakin' miss. Unless the monster starts attacking you, in which case you shift to defensive mode and become the Tank That Isn't There.